The Pub: Off-topic chat for forum gamers

[Legato Endless]

BJ.... you are signed up for my game. *stares*

Edit: Sent out a boatload of PMs. TFT's inbox is full.

If you forward me the pm, I can send it to him over at Civilization Fanatics. I know his box will be open there. Also, apparently email notification has become a thing there, conveniently enough.

*grumbles endlessly about GITP 100 message limit.*

[Ramsus]

Sapo I think you misunderstood. I was stating that BJ is already signed up and has been for a while.

[Saposhiente]

No, think again. I said that BJ was saying that your recruitment might have been ineffective for him, even though in this case he did have the time to read and sign up.

[Legato Endless]

Alright, message sent.

[BourgeoisJerry]

BJ.... you are signed up for my game. *stares*

When I originally typed my message it was much longer, and the part about me forgetting your game wasn't the end of it. Originally I actually talked about how I was reminded of the game and ultimately recruited, but I decided that my post was longer than it needed to be, and I was talking about things that were pretty much irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

@People who complained about a lack of roleplaying: You kind of lose your right to complain when someone makes a game where roleplaying is essentially how you play the game and you don't even sign up for it, let alone try to get other people to. It's not like you're going to get more people to run roleplaying focused games when you make it clear that it's just a total waste of effort.

That was the post that made me actually notice the game. It was the first time you mentioned the game's selling point in either the Pub or Central, and I believe it was also the first time you posted a reminder that the game existed after the initial announcement. I'm not terribly sensitive, so I wasn't put off by any sense of passive aggressiveness, but other people might have been so complaining about the lack of players in that way really wasn't the best way to advertise.

I opted not to address this in my post because other people already covered it, and I don't like dog piling on in situations like this where I have nothing of value to add. My aim wasn't to gang up on you. I just wanted to advise you that you can make your future games more attractive by explicitly mentioning their selling points here or in Central when you first announce the game.

[Ramsus]

Ok, it had just wound up sounding like you'd forgotten you signed up.

[Logic]

I have had an idea for a werewolf game for a while now, and am finally ready to pitch enough of it to gauge interest/ask for advice.

Spoiler: Rock-Paper-Scissors Werewolf

Show

Rules
Rock-Paper-Scissors is a slightly different take on traditional games of Werewolf/Mafia. In it, there are three teams rather than just the two present in the wolf/village or Mafia/Village setup. The goal of this variant is for your team to become the majority of the living players.

Because there is no “true” wolf team, every team has a nightkill. On the first night, one of the three team’s executioners is randomly selected to perform their nightkill. On the second night, one of the two remaining team’s executioners is selected to perform their nightkill, and on the third night, the remaining team’s executioner will perform their nightkill. On the fourth night, the random selection process begins anew, so it is possible for one team to get two nightkills in a row.

No one begins networked in this game, but does begin with one “scoop” on a randomly determined player at start, telling them their alignment. Every player will have one player know their team allegiance, excepting the Alphas, who know no-one, and are known by no-one.

When Lynch votes are counted, players from team rock casting their votes for a player from team scissors count as an additional third of a vote. Players from team scissors casting their votes for a player from team paper count as an additional third of a vote. Players from team paper casting their vote for a player from team rock count as an additional third of a vote.

The rock, paper, and scissors teams will begin of equal size, and some players may begin as neutrals. Neutrals will have the ability to select a side, beginning night 2, and may change sides once, but not if changing sides would result in immediate victory for any one team.

Roles
Seer - Possess a scry that yields the result of "Ally," Enemy," or "Neutral." If the Seer scries their team fool, they receive the result of "Fool."
Fool - Is told they are the Seer for their respective team, but receives randomly determined results when they scry other players. If the Fool scries their team Seer, they receive the result of "Fool."
Baner - This player may protect one player during the night from the nightkill. The baner may also protect one player during the day from lynch votes of a specific team, subtracting one from the total number of lynch votes cast against a teammate specified the night prior. This reduction in votes only applies if at least one vote of a specific team has been cast against that player. For team rock, the lynch votes must contain a player from team scissors to grant this reduction. For team paper, the lynch votes must contain a player from team rock to grant this reduction. For team scissors, the lynch votes must contain a player from team paper.
Alpha - Scries as "Ally" for all scriers except the other Alphas. Possesses a scry that yields either "Alpha" or "Not Alpha" results.
Executioner - This player decides their team's nightkill. If this player is killed, she/he may designate a teammate to be the successor of the nightkill power. If an invalid target is selected, the nightkill power is instead given to a random member of their team. Should another player with a power-role be given this power, on the night of that team's nightkill, no night actions may be taken EXCEPT the nightkill by that player. An executioner that targets a member of his own team is treated as if a successful "Bane" had been applied to their target. In the event of an inactive executioner, the morning update tells the village the same information if a baner succeeds on protecting a player.

[NOTE 1]Rules in this color may not be implemented, based on feedback.
[NOTE 2]I am still in need of a snazzy or clever role name for team Rock's Baner, and Team Scissors Executioner

Feedback is greatly appreciated. I would love to run this as soon as I can.

[Ramsus]

From my inexplicably extensive experience being a baner, I would suggest you make the baner's powers not self-targetting as the baner gets very bored having no information and making the "choice" to defend themselves forever.

I highly suggest the name Paper Tiger for the paper team executioner. Options for the other teams executioner names could be Rock Lobster and Scizzors Lizard.

I would suggest making the neutrals a little more interesting. Maybe make them make their choice at or before the half-way mark of the game and maybe give each of them only two teams they can join*. This would lessen chances of them all joining the same team. Also it might help you figure out the name for those roles if they're actually different in some way from each other.

*Only do this if there are three or more neutrals, otherwise the mechanics favor a specific team. Basically, be careful about how you implement this idea.

I might also suggest giving people with night actions the option to pass on the executioner role to another member of their team to avoid the rng having a huge impact on the outcome of the game.

[Logic]

From my inexplicably extensive experience being a baner, I would suggest you make the baner's powers not self-targetting as the baner gets very bored having no information and making the "choice" to defend themselves forever.

At present, each player (excepting the team Alphas) begin play knowing one other player's allegiance. This may or may not alleviate this issue.

I highly suggest the name Paper Tiger for the paper team executioner. Options for the other teams executioner names could be Rock Lobster and Scizzors Lizard.

All role names are currently secret, however, I do like at least one of your suggestions better than one of my own.

I would suggest making the neutrals a little more interesting. Maybe make them make their choice at or before the half-way mark of the game and maybe give each of them only two teams they can join*. This would lessen chances of them all joining the same team. Also it might help you figure out the name for those roles if they're actually different in some way from each other.

*Only do this if there are three or more neutrals, otherwise the mechanics favor a specific team. Basically, be careful about how you implement this idea.

I think neutrals are where I need the most help. I am currently toying with a couple of specific neutrals that would be unable to choose sides, as they would basically be fueders.

I might also suggest giving people with night actions the option to pass on the executioner role to another member of their team to avoid the rng having a huge impact on the outcome of the game.

By this, do you mean if the Executioner passes his nightkill upon death to the seer/baner/fool, then the baner/seer/fool may attempt to pass the nightkill to someone else to prevent the loss of their primary power for that night?

[Ramsus]

At present, each player (excepting the team Alphas) begin play knowing one other player's allegiance. This may or may not alleviate this issue.

A bit, but not really since they won't know for sure the other character is "more valuable" than they are and everyone leans toward valuing their own survival over others unless they're sure the target is actually worth protecting.
Edit: And there's a much greater chance they will know someone of a different team's alignment than one of their own, so most likely they still would have nobody to choose but themselves.

By this, do you mean if the Executioner passes his nightkill upon death to the seer/baner/fool, then the baner/seer/fool may attempt to pass the nightkill to someone else to prevent the loss of their primary power for that night?

Something like that yeah. I was more looking at the long term where the Seer or Baner might have to choose between their power or the kill several times and that'd really hurt that team and there'd be nothing they could do about it as the only current way to not be the executioner is to die.

[BourgeoisJerry]

I was more looking at the long term where the Seer or Baner might have to choose between their power or the kill several times and that'd really hurt that team and there'd be nothing they could do about it as the only current way to not be the executioner is to die.

The Baner actually doesn't need their power on the night their team has the kill, so that alleviates part of the problem.

[Ramsus]

Could still land on the Seer or Fool though.

[BourgeoisJerry]

Thus, part of the problem.

[reaverb]

Here is my main problem with the Rock Paper Scissors setup: There is no incentive for the teams to act differantly.

In standard mafia, wolves have quite different incentives from Town: they want to prevent their wolfbuddies from being lynched while also preventing Town from catching on to who the wolves are. This leads to more general wolf-tells: Being non-commital on reads (to avoid giving away your buddies), not using reasoning on votes (because reasoning is hard to fake), being on townie lynches (because you're trying to stay off the wolf lynches) etc.

In this setup every team has the same goals: Figure out who they're aligned with and who their targets are. There can be some play in it by trying to figure out what information other have, but co- and anti- alignment tells are rather finicky unlikely to be helpful in the absence of normal wolftells.

Furthermore, since every fraction is just as much a wolf fraction or Town fraction, there's no overlying goal for Day chat. In normal mafia, the majority of players are Town and want to find the wolves, while the minority wolves have to go along with wolfhunting because otherwise they'll be caught. In this game there's no single target - so my guess would be Daychat be mostly empty votes based on private reasoning.

The Ravanica: City of Guilds setup worked similarly with multiple ambiguously neutral/Town/wolf fractions. I suggest reading it in full for help balancing your game, although a lot of private discussion is missing from the main thread. Some notable lessons:

A) Jotom Xire eventually trueclaimed their alignment D1 just so there would be something to kickstart the game (despite the claim probably being -EV). The scoop mechanic is a good start but isn't enough information - in that game all the teams started networked and the claim was needed anyway.

B) Most of the gameplay was behind the scenes political stuff, which is much less likely with 3 fractions. (Ravanica had 10)

[Logic]

I have seen the terms "+EV" and "-EV" yet am not aware what they mean. Could someone clarify for me?

[Askthepizzaguy]

@ Logic

This explains it fully

http://www.pokerlistings.com/strateg...e-ev-explained

[Logic]

With all this additional information, I think I may need to add in a "cheaters" faction to my game. I'm not sure how I will implement it just yet, but it looks like Internet Flea's Apple Werewolf (which he told me was inspired by my Rock-Paper-Scissors idea) was the right way to go. There will need to be at least one "cheater" for the other teams, and perhaps one or more in the neutral camp as well. These players would likely start networked.

[smashbro]

This thread seems like the best place to ask this question:

I submitted a thread for structured games about a week ago, but it hasn't been approved or rejected yet. I sent a PM to Alarra about it, since she's one of the listed moderators for this sub-forum, but haven't heard from her either. What should I do?

[Duck999]

This thread seems like the best place to ask this question:

I submitted a thread for structured games about a week ago, but it hasn't been approved or rejected yet. I sent a PM to Alarra about it, since she's one of the listed moderators for this sub-forum, but haven't heard from her either. What should I do?

I have no clue why it hasn't been accepted yet, but as for the future, if you didn't this time, send a PM to Alarra at the time that you submit a thread.

You can try sending a PM to Haruki-kun, the new mod of structured games.

[Alarra]

Yeah, in general, I don't check the submitted posts queue unless someone tells me there's something there. So, by either sending a pm or posting in here or central. All are good ways to bring attention to the fact that there's a new thread submitted. Ruki may be better about checking in on it than me. In any case, I've not been on the past few days and when I went to look this afternoon, it'd been approved.

[Cyber Punk]

I'd actually like to post a new Ready Aim Fire thread in which everyone can take turns hosting and making up their own themes (the ones I've seen under Structured Games have one theme per thread), but I'll need a host volunteer and/or tips.

Help?

[Duck999]

I'd actually like to post a new Ready Aim Fire thread in which everyone can take turns hosting and making up their own themes (the ones I've seen under Structured Games have one theme per thread), but I'll need a host volunteer and/or tips.

Help?

First, take a look at this one. That means yours will be number XXXIV. If it has multiple games in one thread, it will be XXXIV-(Whatever you go through). If you create the thread, I suggest you be the first host. Also, continue to update the thread name so people know when a new game starts and what page it starts on.

[Cyber Punk]

I'm composing a first post as we speak. Alright, I'll host. I still need more tips, but I'll create my 'Wasteland 2 Raider'-themed thread, along with a PM to Haruki-kun.

We'll see how it goes, though. Partakers might come up with better ideas to keep it ongoing.

Thanks, Duck999!

[Cyber Punk]

Heads-up for posters and mods: I just posted a new Ready Aim Fire thread, subtitled "Raiders of a Dead World"

[Askthepizzaguy]

*grumbles endlessly about GITP 100 message limit.*

I probably would have decided to host Shadow of Hyrule here, but this limit makes it completely unworkable.

This site is awesome but there's no way I could host a complex game here.

I asked a forum admin directly if there could be a way of changing this, even for certain accounts, and the answer was that it was impossible. So it either is impossible or the admins are disinclined to help, and I assume folks are telling the truth, so let's go with the former.

The very next best option is Giraffe, but I'm wavering on that now. My PM's to the forum admin have gone unanswered even though he's been active. I worry about that, if there's an issue.

After that is CFC, but I'm not sold. plus there's a line.

After that is TWC, which... I'm actually leaning toward again. Which makes me unhappy. And if I'd consider going back to TWC, I'd rather do the Org since the gameroom is empty and I could moderate there.

[Internet Flea]

Quicktopics wouldn't work for it?

[Askthepizzaguy]

Quicktopics wouldn't work for it?

...

They... would.



This is an option I had not considered. It will be a pain in the buttocks for me, but it would definitely help my co-host... and it would prevent inbox spam.

That could work. That could really work.

Thank you, Internet Flea. I award you one internet. Or one flea, whichever is your preference.

[Logic]

Quicktopics wouldn't work for it?

...

They... would.



This is an option I had not considered. It will be a pain in the buttocks for me, but it would definitely help my co-host... and it would prevent inbox spam.

That could work. That could really work.

Thank you, Internet Flea. I award you one internet. Or one flea, whichever is your preference.

I was going to suggest the same thing. Can I be awarded Internet Flea medicine for intent?

[Duck999]

...

They... would.



This is an option I had not considered. It will be a pain in the buttocks for me, but it would definitely help my co-host... and it would prevent inbox spam.

That could work. That could really work.

Thank you, Internet Flea. I award you one internet. Or one flea, whichever is your preference.

As long as you have an account, the My Topics button basically becomes an inbox.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Yes, yes, you're both very clever, solving all my hosting problems with a game you already hosted together, that I played in, and completely spaced that option as being an option. Well done then. I know when I've been bested.



- - - Updated - - -

As long as you have an account, the My Topics button basically becomes an inbox.

I don't like having to open 30 different quicktopics to get all the orders, but it's pretty similar to opening 30 different PMs.

The difference? Your night/day action won't be the first thing I see, I'll have to hunt for it. Pizza no like, bad medicine.

Still, it solves more problems than it causes, and has the additional effect of making it possible for my co-host to access everything I can.

So, it works. Pizza still no like, but I have to admit it's the best solution.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm probably going to ask players to post orders/actions in the following format:

"-------USE ITEM X ON LEGATO ENDLESS"

All caps, with a string of dashes in front of it. That way I can find it faster, by skimming.

I would ask people to bold it or use colors, but the code for quicktopic to do that is a gigantic pain in the butt. This is much faster, even if it feels silly, it is a major help.