Best "Christmas Tree" Replacement

[Grod_The_Giant]

What's the best homebrew you've seen that gets rid of the game's dependance on magic items?

[ben-zayb]

I'm not sure what you are looking for, but I suppose the prevalence of class fixes helps in minimizing item dependence. We also have some great VoP fixes itP.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm not sure what you are looking for, but I suppose the prevalence of class fixes helps in minimizing item dependence. We also have some great VoP fixes itP.

VoP fixes are good. I guess an example of the kind of thing I'm looking for is this.

[qazzquimby]

I didn't get very far because my conversion rate fell apart, but I was hoping to find a way to burn gp for xp, loading up on class features rather than gear. It's difficult to calculate because there are so many benefits in a level up.
Burning experience for bloodlines or associations would probably be fairly clean.
The characters still need a way to advance ability scores though, and gain anything else that is usually exclusive to gear grabbing.
Your system works very well for complete removal, while my largely non-existent attempts were focusing on partial removal.

I don't actually have an answer to your question. : )

[nonsi]

What's the best homebrew you've seen that gets rid of the game's dependance on magic items?

One of the main goals of my 3.5e Overhaul was to kill gear dependency and actually not let characters gain 50% the gear mileage that's possible via the official materials, while at the same time double or even triple the mileage from class features and game options.

[EdroGrimshell]

Complete Gear by Dreamscarred Press

[gr8artist]

So, I (and my fiance') have been getting into some of the old Final Fantasy games again. Mostly VIII for me, though she's started VII and III now. And it has awakened within me the idea to make a junction system of some kind, where a character forms a bond with a powerful spirit that awards him abilities as he gains power.
In a D&D setting, such a bond might grant supernatural, extraordinary, magical, or martial abilities over the course of several levels. You could measure such perks as "boons", giving each boon a rating in points, and a character a number of available points equal to some ratio based on his level.
Determine a boon's rating by finding out how much it would cost for a similar item, with some kind of exponential scale: 1 point to 2500 gold, 2 points to 10'000 gold, 3 points to 20'000 gold, 4 points to 40'000 gold, etc.
I feel like such a system could allow for greater diversity between similar class builds (for example, a 2H fighter with an earth spirit would have better defense and armor, while a 2H fighter with a fire spirit might have better damage and accuracy.
I feel like such a system would allow you to easily incorporate magic item effects as a source of divine/extraplanar power, while allowing you to drastically cut down on WBL problems. With more innate power, you could make magical items more significant and rare without depriving players of appropriate balance.

(yes, boons and points come from a White Wolf game called "Scion")

[erikun]

Are you talking about a better system for magic items or a replacement for the 3.5e system?

For a better system, having interesting effects rather than more power is one that I've seen before. Magic items that shed light as a torch, or can show the way to an exit, or that overcome the defenses of a werewolf are generally quite fine even when a character has a bunch of them. Some systems have items that replicate skills or special abilities that a PC may not have access to. AD&D tended to be fine with items that boosted stats up to a specific level, meaning that someone could wear Gauntlets of Giant Strength and have that 18 STR without needing to have rolled it at character creation, but it pointless for a character who gets a higher STR. (Note that the last tends to have a lot of people wearing the same stat booster equipment.)

As for a replacement for the 3.5e system, I haven't noticed one. Note that I haven't been looking very closely, but a lot tend to fall into the idea of just taking enhancements and putting them onto a character's existing weapon, or giving the magic bonuses (and sometimes enhancements) out as characters level up.

[Composer99]

I haven't seen (recently) any major attempts to nerf monsters, which would be one way of getting rid of the Christmas Tree while reducing the requirement to come up with some kind of replacement for the bonuses to ability scores, attack bonuses, AC, etc.

[Admiral Squish]

[shameless plug]

Well, I just recently developed the Character Points sytem, which is a pretty simple way to reduce dependence on 'standard' magic items, like rings of protection and capes of resistance.
It's designed for my setting, but I don't think it's too specific to be used elsewhere.

[/shameless plug]

[Dienekes]

The best item replacement I've seen theorized was one that treated magic items and equipment and the like as essentially the same cost as feats. If your character wanted to be decked out like Batman pick a bunch of equipment feats. If not pick feats that give more personal benefits.

The downside is this would be hard to balance as cost is pretty tied to power in standard 3.5 and on the whole equipment is probably better than a feat.

[LordErebus12]

This got me thinking about Sacred Vows and the vow of poverty feat. I'm gonna make an attempt to do something like this with those feats.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I guess the thing about fixing the christmas tree effect is that there are three types of item:

• Number-boosting items-- Your +X armor, your cloaks of charisma, your belts of giant strength... stuff like that. Anything that gives you bigger numbers and little else.
• Ability-Replacement items-- This includes a lot of the things in the "List of necessary magic items." Items granting flight, teleportation, key immunities, even wands of lesser vigor... all the stuff that casters can get easily but other folks can't.
• Fun items-- Everything else, more or less. Rods of Wonder, Apparatus of the Crab, stuff like that.

• The first should be easy to fix, as it's mostly a matter of getting a good progression. Heck, VoP does a decent enough job.
• The second is where things get tricky. Using proper class fixes helps a lot, but... well, heck, I'll ask the question here. Could you run a game using T3 classes and VoP benefits (but not restrictions), if there were no other magic items? If the only magic items were consumables?
• The third... should probably be left in, in some capacity.

Ideally, I'd like to be able to say "we're starting at 6th level. You've got 500 gold in your pocket and 1d4 random minor wonderous items" and have things function.

[toapat]

Weapon of Destiny I did this a while ago, but i havent gotten around to finishing the project. I wouldnt call it perfect though

to answer your other question: Could VoP be modified into something that kills the need for the christmas tree effect? Yes, but it would need to be modified to have variable bonuses like the trueseeing but not necessarily true seeing

[andreichekov]

You guys realise that if you just make every class tier 2 you no longer have a problem.
The monster manual is written to tier 2, so it is a much smaller project to just buff all the weaker classes.
The AwesomeTome manages to make the Fighter in the high end of tier 2.

the fighterhttp://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Fighter...83.5e_Class%29

the AwesomeTomehttps://code.google.com/p/awesometome/downloads/list

[gr8artist]

Somewhat of a tangent, but that's not a tier 2 class, if I understand the tier system correctly. Tier 1 can be the best at everything, tier 2 can be good at everything. Tier 3 can be great at one thing, and tier 4 can be good at one thing. Tier 5 is below average at anything.
The fighter listed is an excellent combatant, but still doesn't have any useful out of combat options other than his ability to craft magical items. Even so, he needs a wizard to be able to cast the spells for him. Even in combat, he's still at the mercy of a caster's stupidity. His best ability, to be able to negate an opponent's action, is only good up to 60 feet. Close range spells from a level 14 mage have that range or more (25 ft + 5 ft / 2 levels). The best buff he gets is for his saves. Also... Hit die?

There's a drastic difference in the classes, and the fighter/barbarian/rogue aren't supposed to be high tier classes, and never will be.
Wizard. I study magic. Magic can do anything. Ergo, I can do anything.
Sorceror. I have magic. Magic can do anything. Ergo, I can do anything.
Cleric. God gives me magic. Magic can do anything. Ergo, I can do anything.
Fighter. I can fight. Fighting accomplishes one thing. Ergo, I can do one thing.

Any attempt to make the fighter able to do what the wizard can do, or bring him up to that level, is ridiculous.
Now, that being said, we can get back to the topic at hand.

No, buffing the weaker classes doesn't remove the problems with magic items, unless you give them all the ability to mimic spell and magic item effects. It might help, sure, but it isn't more than half of a fix.

[qazzquimby]

I believe if a class is incredibly good at one thing, much better than a Tier 3 specializing in that thing, it also qualifies as Tier 2. Teramachs are Tier 2 for that reason IIRC.

I think removing aspects from the opposition is better than giving them to the players. Common DR/Magic assumes that all high level characters will have magic items, and therefor gives them no other choice. Granting every character magic alternatives doesn't fit a lot of character designs and cheapens magic. When something is currently impossible, or extremely tedious or impractical without magic, it should be removed or changed. Other aspects can be dealt with through character/ability points as mentioned above.

Can we compile a list of obstacles that cannot be addressed by characters not dressed up?

[DeusMortuusEst]

I think it was Vael who presented a quite interesting (in my mind) solution to this. I'll see if I can dig up a link later, as I might misremember stuff, but IIRC the general idea was this;

Magical items does not exist, or are almost unheard of. Instead characters have points equal to WBL at each level. These points can then be used to buy benefits that match bonuses given by items, by paying a points cost equal to the cost in gp for the item.

The change is mostly a fluff one, but there are some mechanical sides to it as well (dispel, never lose items etc.).

EDIT: Found it: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...mpaign-Setting

See post #7, wealth and magic items.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'm not a big fan of virtual WBL. It helps a bit, sure, but only on the fluff side. (And even then, in a weird enough way that it's not a universal solution). The crunch is, in the majority of cases, identical-- still a bunch of fiddly little bonuses, still a need to blow most of your allotment on boring number-boosting "items."

And just to set some guidelines, let's think in terms of T3 characters. I'm talking Swordsages, Binders, Dread Necromancers, things of that ilk. Fighters are borked and druids are OP regardless of how much wealth you hang on 'em*, and we all know it.


*I know, given sufficiently excess gold you can buy enough magic items to pretend to big a wizard. Not really relevant in practical play.

[DeusMortuusEst]

I'm not a big fan of virtual WBL. It helps a bit, sure, but only on the fluff side. (And even then, in a weird enough way that it's not a universal solution). The crunch is, in the majority of cases, identical-- still a bunch of fiddly little bonuses, still a need to blow most of your allotment on boring number-boosting "items."

And just to set some guidelines, let's think in terms of T3 characters. I'm talking Swordsages, Binders, Dread Necromancers, things of that ilk. Fighters are borked and druids are OP regardless of how much wealth you hang on 'em*, and we all know it.


*I know, given sufficiently excess gold you can buy enough magic items to pretend to big a wizard. Not really relevant in practical play.

Ah, I see. When I think of the 'christmas tree effect' the thing that bothers me the most is that all heroes run around with the wealth of a nation on them all the time. The numbers and bonuses are not that bad to me, it's the idea that you can't be awesome without having things. Virtual wealth fixes that without having to change that much of game mechanics or balance.

That said, I get what you mean. I'll let you know if I find anything.

And for the record. The Legend class is beyond awesome. It's one of the best things I've ever read concerning D&D 3.5. Honest opinion.

[nonsi]

I'm not a big fan of virtual WBL. It helps a bit, sure, but only on the fluff side. (And even then, in a weird enough way that it's not a universal solution). The crunch is, in the majority of cases, identical-- still a bunch of fiddly little bonuses, still a need to blow most of your allotment on boring number-boosting "items."

And just to set some guidelines, let's think in terms of T3 characters. I'm talking Swordsages, Binders, Dread Necromancers, things of that ilk. Fighters are borked and druids are OP regardless of how much wealth you hang on 'em*, and we all know it.


*I know, given sufficiently excess gold you can buy enough magic items to pretend to big a wizard. Not really relevant in practical play.

Which is why the solution, rule-wise, should include:
1. Nerfing spellcasters in general.
2. Expanding noncasters' power and overall range of options.
3. Making magical gear creation harder.
4. Making stat-accumulation via magical gear more limited.
5. Expanding & enhancing the benefits stemming just for leveling up.

[tarkisflux]

I guess the thing about fixing the christmas tree effect is that there are three types of item:

• Number-boosting items-- Your +X armor, your cloaks of charisma, your belts of giant strength... stuff like that. Anything that gives you bigger numbers and little else.
• Ability-Replacement items-- This includes a lot of the things in the "List of necessary magic items." Items granting flight, teleportation, key immunities, even wands of lesser vigor... all the stuff that casters can get easily but other folks can't.
• Fun items-- Everything else, more or less. Rods of Wonder, Apparatus of the Crab, stuff like that.

I think that's a pretty good list actually. So good that I'll even just take it and use it in my response. Here's the best thing I've seen for dumping trees:

• I haven't seen many progression replacements here (other than yours), but there's a few on the wiki (option 1, option 2). My preference is for a slightly modified (because I also hard cap attributes) wiki option 1, but like yours they basically boil down to you getting the assumed plusses automagically, with the actually interesting magic bits the only thing you pay for. This also shunts flaming swords into the interesting item class, because it's not a needed number anymore.
• My preferred solution for the utility powers is to offload them on another subsystem. Since I've written more than a hundred pages on doing it with skills, it shouldn't be surprising that I've convinced myself it's a good fit for that sort of thing. If not skills, I've seen class features (which tend to bloat, but maybe that's ok with you), non-crappy no-prereq feats (because chains are a bad fit here), or even artifact gear that grants a pile of abilities and bypasses WBL all work ok. Really though, use the skill subsystem .
• Keep these around, because they can be fun without being necessary. Once the plusses are sorted, even magical armor and shields and weapons fall into this category. Flaming swords get to be cool again because it's a sword that's ON FIRE, rather than just a thing you stack with a bunch of other things to keep you damage up.

I also go with an 8 item limit rather than body slots. And an alternate magic item system. But that's just window dressing after pruning the tree. But I can say "we're starting at 6th level. You've got 500 gold in your pocket and 1d4 random minor wonderous items" and things function quite well, so there's that.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm. Feats do make a good way to add abilities back in, especially what with different classes getting different "necessary" benefits. That might put too much strain on classes/builds already stressed for feats, but if we kick things up to a feat every odd level, and combine that with the kind of prerequisite reductions I used in Giants and Graveyards... yeah, yeah, that could work. Call it a new category, [Knack], and explain it as little bits of magic you picked up over the course of your adventuring career... combine that with level/BAB based numeric upgrades...

If we do something like that, what sort of abilities should we include?

• Alternate movement modes
• Special senses
• Non-armor bonuses to AC (deflection, NA, etc)
• Assorted immunities/resistances (fear, energy drain, mind affecting, etc)

Other suggestions?

[nonsi]

Hmm. Feats do make a good way to add abilities back in, especially what with different classes getting different "necessary" benefits. That might put too much strain on classes/builds already stressed for feats, but if we kick things up to a feat every odd level, and combine that with the kind of prerequisite reductions I used in Giants and Graveyards... yeah, yeah, that could work. Call it a new category, [Knack], and explain it as little bits of magic you picked up over the course of your adventuring career... combine that with level/BAB based numeric upgrades...

If we do something like that, what sort of abilities should we include?

• Alternate movement modes
• Special senses
• Non-armor bonuses to AC (deflection, NA, etc)
• Assorted immunities/resistances (fear, energy drain, mind affecting, etc)

Other suggestions?

Why Alternate movement modes?
Why not tie enhanced movement capabilities to BAB and limit them to martial combat aspects only?
That way, martial combat always has some edge over spellcasting - and you gain that without inventing different movement bonuses to different classes.


Special senses are good.
On that aspect there can never be general rules.
Those will have to remain per-class and per-race.


I wouldn't use deflection for innate bonuses.
Just doesn't seem to fit.


Immunities - handle like enhanced senses.




You forgot general limiting factors to spellcasters.

[andreichekov]

Why would you nerf spell casters?
Why not just stop playing at the level where you think spell casters are going to go too far?
I personally never play past level 15.
Then you can make non-casters that are capable of matching up with the casters in crazy town.

[tarkisflux]

Bonus feats for these things are all well and good, but I think the worry about feat strapped classes is a valid one. Leaning on feats works best when your classes aren't dependent on feats for effectiveness, and the feats can afford to be fun things instead. If you have feat strapped classes and you don't want to patch them out of that, you might be better served by placing this on an alternate track entirely and just removing the pressure. That also frees you up to give fewer of these to classes that didn't need them for whatever reason, if that was a lever you wanted to pull.

And now I'll disagree with nonsi a lot I guess, starting with the last thing. Since you've indicated T3 multiple times, I don't think you need to start with any caster limiting factors except perhaps to not give them as many of these as partial or non-casters get.

Alternate movement modes as knacks is fine. You take an earthglide feat, or a winged feat, or a nightcrawler-bamf feat, or whatever and call it good. It's more overtly magical than most feats previously were, but since they're replacing magic items I don't really see a way around that. Give them a level prereq only (and maybe a "no more than X of these movement feats" prereq as well).

Special senses seem like they'd work along similar lines, but probably be lower level than special movement. I have no idea why you'd allow things like earthglide on whoever but not allow tremorsense on whoever as well, so I see no reason to restrict these to any particular class / race. If you want to make these slightly racial or class based for some reason, maybe lower prereqs for combinations that you want to encourage. But past that... meh.

Immunities may as well be all over the level prereq scale, since some things are more relevant at different times. Fear is good early, compulsion is good always, death is good later, energy resistance is good from mid levels, etc. But like special senses, I don't see a reason to restrict these to any particular class / race.

Why are deflection and natural armor bonuses, which don't do anything other than add numbers, not already included in the Number Boosting Items category and assumed? This category doesn't seem appropriate or useful, and it is expressly uninteresting. If you insist on not adding these to the assumed numbers though, they could be riders on other feats. Earthglide +3 NA, bamf + 2 deflection, etc. [*]Side note since you didn't respond in the other thread, I continue to disagree with BAB as a determinant of AC bonuses. It has annoying interactions with divine power and hurts moderate BAB classes for no good reason, on top of

[Grod_The_Giant]

Why Alternate movement modes?
Why not tie enhanced movement capabilities to BAB and limit them to martial combat aspects only?
That way, martial combat always has some edge over spellcasting - and you gain that without inventing different movement bonuses to different classes.

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to communicate here, but...

Special senses are good.
On that aspect there can never be general rules.
Those will have to remain per-class and per-race.

Why? What hard-wired rule of the game says that I can't write a feat that says "you've learned a little bit of magic, or been hit by a few too many transmutation spells, granting you 30ft blindsense as a (su) ability" without specifying "dwarves only?"

I wouldn't use deflection for innate bonuses.
Just doesn't seem to fit.

These aren't meant to be innate bonuses. They're little bits of magic you've picked up. Think Spelltouched feats.

You forgot general limiting factors to spellcasters.

Why would you nerf spell casters?

This is not a caster-mundane balancing project. This is a magic item replacement project. Yes, mundanes need their magic items a lot more than casters do, but that's all. If you want my thoughts on more general 3.5 balance, look elsewhere.

Bonus feats for these things are all well and good, but I think the worry about feat strapped classes is a valid one. Leaning on feats works best when your classes aren't dependent on feats for effectiveness, and the feats can afford to be fun things instead. If you have feat strapped classes and you don't want to patch them out of that, you might be better served by placing this on an alternate track entirely and just removing the pressure. That also frees you up to give fewer of these to classes that didn't need them for whatever reason, if that was a lever you wanted to pull.

If I run this alongside my houserules/homebrew classes, feat crunch is a lot less of a thing. But when I write it up, I can certainly present an alternate rule. "Gain one of these feats every three levels" or something like that.

Why are deflection and natural armor bonuses, which don't do anything other than add numbers, not already included in the Number Boosting Items category and assumed? This category doesn't seem appropriate or useful, and it is expressly uninteresting. If you insist on not adding these to the assumed numbers though, they could be riders on other feats. Earthglide +3 NA, bamf + 2 deflection, etc.

I don't know, I was trying to come up with things. If you've got ideas, I'd love to hear them.

[*]Side note since you didn't respond in the other thread, I continue to disagree with BAB as a determinant of AC bonuses. It has annoying interactions with divine power and hurts moderate BAB classes for no good reason, on top of

I profusely apologize for missing you there. But I still have to disagree. I don't think it hurts moderate BAB that much, since they're only a few levels behind full, and typically get a lot more magic to compensate. It makes the different BABs more important... and it just makes sense to scale some things off BAB, I think. Divine Power does have a funky interaction, though, I'll give it that.

[rlc]

Well, this sounds promising for 5e's system. Of course it's old news, but it still sounds like they're moving in the right direction.

[ben-zayb]

I was thinking of progressing AC bonus like bab or saves, with the type maybe being dodge bonus to give Dex types priority, followed by other physical classes, and others being the last. I'm not sure how to balance that though (maybe +5/+10/+15 bonus by level 20 for poor/medium/good?)

[Grod_The_Giant]

OK. How do we feel about something like this:

Level-Up Bonuses
Every odd-numbered level, you gain a feat. Every even-numbered level, you may increase one of your ability scores by 1.

Base-Attack Bonuses
All characters gain a competence bonus to weapon attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, initiative checks, and armor class equal to one-third their base attack bonus. If using a shield, they gain a miss chance of 5%, plus an additional 5% for every 5 points of BAB (10% at 5th level, 15% at 10th level, up to 25% at 20th level). These bonuses only apply to native BAB derived from class levels. Natural hit dice do not apply, nor do temporary increases to BAB from effects such as divine power.

New Feat Type: Knack Feats
Knack feats represent unique abilities characters have gained. Some are minor bits of magic picked up over the years, others are the result of being hit by so much magic, while still more are simple manifestations of exceptional wills.

Knack Feats	Prerequisite	Type	Benefit
Ghost Touch	Level 3	Su	Your weapons gain the ghost touch property.
Aquatic Touch	Level 3	Ex	You gain a swim speed equal to your base land speed.
Scale the Walls	Level 3	Ex	You gain a climb speed equal to your base land speed.
Hero's Courage	Level 3	Ex	You gain immunity to fear.
See the Shadow	Level 3	Su	You can see perfectly even in pitch blackness.
Quick to Act	Level 3	Ex	Add your full BAB to initiative checks.
Dwarven Delver	Level 5	Ex	You gain a burrow speed equal to your base land speed.
Energy Attunement	Level 5	Su	You gain resistance to one energy type, and your weapons deal +1d6 energy damage.
Unstoppable Mind	Level 5	Ex	You gain immunity to charm and compulsion effects.
Secret Reserve	Level 5	Su	You're immune to detect thoughts, discern lies, and attempts to magically discern your alignment.
Ghost Wall	Level 5, Ghost Touch	Su	Your armor gains the ghost touch property.
Aquatic Embrace	Level 6, Aquatic Touch	Su	You gain the ability to breathe underwater, and ignore penalties as though under the effects of a freedom of movement spell.
Aerial Embrace	Level 9	Ex or Su	You gain a fly speed equal to your base land speed.
See the Unseen	Level 9	Su	You may see invisible creatures and magic auras.
Warp Step	Level 9	Su	You can teleport short distances as a move action.
Feel the Air	Level 9	Su	You gain blindsense.
Feel the Earth	Level 9	Su	You gain tremorsense.
Hero's Vitality	Level 9	Su	You gain fast healing.
Hero's Resilience	Level 9	Ex	You gain damage reduction.
Earthglide	Level 9, Dwarven Delver	Su	You can swim through earth and stone like an earth elemental, and don't need to breathe while underground.
True Sight	Level 11	Su	Gain temporary true seeing at the cost of taking Wisdom damage.
Energy Blessing	Level 11, Energy Attunement	Su	You gain immunity to one energy type, and your weapons deal +2d6 energy damage, with extra damage on a critical hit.
Iron Defiance	Level 13	Ex	Take nonlethal damage instead of being dazed or stunned.
Will to Live	Level 13	Ex	Take nonlethal damage instead of death effects.
Know the Air	Level 13, Feel the Air	Su	Your blindsense improves to blindsight.
Hidden Fate	Level 15	Su	You become undetectable to divination spells.

(Full write-ups to come, if we like the idea)

Magic Items and WBL
Magic items that provide numerical bonuses-- +1 swords, +2 armor, cloaks or resistance, headbands of intellect and the like-- do not exist. Magic armor and weapons don't need an initial +1 in order to apply special properties.

Characters may be expected to start with 1000 gold per (character level -1). Thus, a second level character has a starting wealth of 1000gp, a 5th level has a starting wealth of 4000gp, and so on.