League of Legends LIX: Ice Cream, Stamps, and Lorn

[thracian]

Multiple posts have been showing up on the front page of the subreddit or in the comments section of the top posts on the subreddit every day since the patch.

[Math_Mage]

He's definitely not the best top laner out there, but Gragas has good utility and control. In team fights a good ult can turn the entire fight, and his body slam and the slow on his Q means he has excellent peel and pursuit.

The big thing is that he can maintain his usefulness in a teamfight even in a lane swap scenario with little farm. His ult, stun, and slow are just as effective, and tank stats are generally less expensive than damage efficiency.

Essentially, Gragas is a teamfighting top champion. You don't take Gragas to park him in a side lane and splitpush. You take Gragas if you anticipate (or intend to initiate) a lane swap and expect him to have relatively less farm than your mid or ADC. You take Gragas to force and win team fights, preferably coupled with another high-CC support.

So, you're begging the enemy team not to run a good 4+1 comp themselves, which is what every single LCS team does with Teleport? Or are you sending your mid/ADC to split (without Teleport) and leaving the main body of your team with only one damage threat? Counting on Gragas to force a 5v4?

Top Tank Gragas pigeonholes your team strategy and makes your team easy to play around. Top AP Gragas takes too long to power up. Neither has the carry-boosting utility of e.g. a Kayle or Lulu to make up for the lack; neither is a splitpushing demon like, again, Kayle or Lulu. Top Gragas is not a teamfight-phase champion, he's a roaming deathsquad-phase champion, when top is the most isolated and most easily shut down role. That doesn't make sense, and we saw exactly how it plays out this weekend.

[Godskook]

pick a top with more utility or tankiness

I don't want to wade too close to your primary point("can gragas go top in the LCS"), but I find this characterization of him a bit inaccurate.

Gragas has 3 CC, one of which is a long-range displacement with decent length. That's Leona levels of CC. On top of this, I'm reasonably sure he's tankier than Shyvana for most of the game(someone who was a super common tanky top). Finally, he has good health sustain and mana management, due to his W.

While it may be possible to find another top with either more utility -or- tankiness, I think Gragas is very close to the "frontier"(from the Lheticus thread) on the Utility/Tankiness curve, and has good laning sustain on top of it(a rare thing on tanks).

[Math_Mage]

I don't want to wade too close to your primary point("can gragas go top in the LCS"), but I find this characterization of him a bit inaccurate.

Gragas has 3 CC, one of which is a long-range displacement with decent length. That's Leona levels of CC. On top of this, I'm reasonably sure he's tankier than Shyvana for most of the game(someone who was a super common tanky top). Finally, he has good health sustain and mana management, due to his W.

While it may be possible to find another top with either more utility -or- tankiness, I think Gragas is very close to the "frontier"(from the Lheticus thread) on the Utility/Tankiness curve, and has good laning sustain on top of it(a rare thing on tanks).

That's true--my mistake. Still, I don't think top lane plays to his strengths.

[abadguy]

Just caught with this week's NA LCS games. Much excites! I really like how the teams are evolving and the new teams like COL gaining so much confidence in their play. Dat COL vs CRS game though ... very reminiscent of a typical bronze/silver ranked game in that it became a game of who throws harder.

Think the new patch really threw a spanner in the works, hence all the teams going 1-1. First team to adapt fully will probably win the split.

[Eldariel]

Just a heads-up for people, OGN matches are now being uploaded in HD (only in Korean though) on this Youtube account: TVOngamenet

I particularly encourage people to watch the SKT T1 K vs. Samsung Blue games from last Friday (make sure to watch the actual game, not just the highlight reel).

[Artanis]

That's true--my mistake. Still, I don't think top lane plays to his strengths.

Honest question: which position would be better for him? If you want all the stuff that Godskook mentioned, you have to put him somewhere.

[Antonok]

Honest question: which position would be better for him? If you want all the stuff that Godskook mentioned, you have to put him somewhere.

Support and/or jungle. I think it was Riots intent was to turn him into a support just based on the comments they were making in the rework thread. I've seen him used in both roles some some pretty good success.

[Togath]

He is a very fun support
The cc is great for harassing the enemy adc/support, especially with the range on his q.
The w+e combo can be useful as well, stun one or more units and then deal heavy damage(regardless of hp, since it scales to theirs) to one.

[TechnOkami]

Gragas is the only Support I can play. :I

Next on my list of "can I play them as a Support" is Braum.

[9mm]

Honest question: which position would be better for him? If you want all the stuff that Godskook mentioned, you have to put him somewhere.

Jungle or support are the best places for Gragas. Personally I think Jungle works better, as it mostly assures that he can get the tank items he needs, and Gragas has really good ganks again.

[Godskook]

Honest question: which position would be better for him? If you want all the stuff that Godskook mentioned, you have to put him somewhere.

I'd say Gragas' role preference is Support>Top>Jungle, personally.

Support seems to suit him very well, both itemization-wise(support items tend to be tankier anyway) and laning-wise(his playstyle works slightly better during that phase when he doesn't need to farm, due to how W works).

In top, I see him picked into the same comps you'd pick Malphite(but with a different ult function). His laning seems sufficient for soloQ(Math_Mage was principly talking to LCS level top lane dynamics).

From the jungle, you can ~make~ him work, but he lacks clearing power and his W's channel starts turning into a liability at buff camps. Worse, he has stronger competition in-class in the jungle from champions that might not function as well as him in the previously mentioned roles, such as Nautilus, Sejuani or Xin Zhao.

[Happy Gravity]

From the jungle, you can ~make~ him work, but he lacks clearing power and his W's channel starts turning into a liability at buff camps. Worse, he has stronger competition in-class in the jungle from champions that might not function as well as him in the previously mentioned roles, such as Nautilus, Sejuani or Xin Zhao.

You think channeling for *1* second to deal 8-12% max health damage on a buff camp, on a champion that wants and builds absolutely no attack speed is a liability? You know it gives him damage reduction as well? And if standing there for 1 second is too much, you can cast it while walking towards the camp, or kite away from the camp while taking the drink and whack it once you're done.

And you think he doesn't have clearing power when he's allowed to cook his barrel on jungle camps and do full damage?

And Sejuani sucks. Sad, but true.

[Joran]

Just caught with this week's NA LCS games. Much excites! I really like how the teams are evolving and the new teams like COL gaining so much confidence in their play. Dat COL vs CRS game though ... very reminiscent of a typical bronze/silver ranked game in that it became a game of who throws harder.

Think the new patch really threw a spanner in the works, hence all the teams going 1-1. First team to adapt fully will probably win the split.

Odd factoid: Blue side was 8-0 this week.

This is second week that NA LCS teams went 1-1 and that was on the old patch. I think the NA scene has improved from last split, but every team is really inconsistent.

[Godskook]

You think channeling for *1* second to deal 8-12% max health damage on a buff camp, on a champion that wants and builds absolutely no attack speed is a liability? You know it gives him damage reduction as well? And if standing there for 1 second is too much, you can cast it while walking towards the camp, or kite away from the camp while taking the drink and whack it once you're done.

Yes, the tradeoff is worth making compared to not making it(i.e., not pressing W when running jungle Gragas), but that's not my point at all. My point is a comparison between Gragas as a jungler and other, more normal jungle picks, who frequently get similarly powered abilities without the channel time.

Fact is, junglers aren't usually forced to stop fighting the jungle in order to use their skills on the jungle, and have better clearing skills than Gragas to boot. And in all 3 cases I mentioned, at least one of their skills actually comes with an auto-reset attached, to actually add to their DPS, above and beyond what the skill says it does.

And you think he doesn't have clearing power when he's allowed to cook his barrel on jungle camps and do full damage?

lol

Barrel is about equal(worse rank 1 CD by 1s, by rank 5 3s better, while damage per rank is worse all around), clear-wise as Riptide, and Riptide is not a good clearing tool.

[Nadevoc]

Drunken Rage channel is only a bit longer than his normal downtime between AAs; it's definitely not a liability clearing buff camps.

I've found his clear slightly faster than Sej's, plus he has considerably better sustain and a chance to actually fight any counter junglers that show up to try and duel him

[Togath]

Yes. But Sejauni isn't a very good jungler from my understanding.
It's like saying a spork is a better soup-spoon than a fork, without considering that a soup-spoon is better than both at it's job.

[mrcarter11]

It's a single second longer of a cd than Riptide at rank 1, with the same cd at rank 2. Riptide also can't deal more damage at rank 1, and only deals more damage after that if you manage to clip monsters with all 3 pulses. If you only hit them with two of the waves, barrel roll deals more damage. Also Barrel roll has a higher Ap ratio attached if you decide to build some AP.

[Math_Mage]

It's a single second longer of a cd than Riptide at rank 1, with the same cd at rank 2. Riptide also can't deal more damage at rank 1, and only deals more damage after that if you manage to clip monsters with all 3 pulses. If you only hit them with two of the waves, barrel roll deals more damage. Also Barrel roll has a higher Ap ratio attached if you decide to build some AP.

Caveat: Riptide has a higher max AP ratio. But that depends on landing all three pulses.

[Nadevoc]

Yes. But Sejauni isn't a very good jungler from my understanding.
It's like saying a spork is a better soup-spoon than a fork, without considering that a soup-spoon is better than both at it's job.

Sej is decent. I'm using her as a comparison point for a few reasons.

1. She was one of the similar junglers listed as competition. She has a couple notable similarities such as using % max health damage for clearing, bringing an AoE disruption ult, etc.
2. I have a lot of recent experience on her, and Kook's aware of that.

Tank junglers in general are suffering a bit at the moment since Riot has decided for some reason to focus more on carry junglers, but they definitely work. Gragas bridges the gap a bit.

I wasn't trying to say he works by comparing him to something terrible. I was commenting on what was actually being discussed at the time.

[Happy Gravity]

First point: Addressed already. 1 second of channel (when you can move during it anyways...) doesn't matter for Graggy unless you have attack speed items (Don't go attack speed on Gragas).

lol

Barrel is about equal(worse rank 1 CD by 1s, by rank 5 3s better, while damage per rank is worse all around), clear-wise as Riptide, and Riptide is not a good clearing tool.

Riptide is **** at clearing because it rarely hits all of the jungle camps with all of the pulses. Also, Nautilus would rather max Titan's Wrath over it. If you could apply its full damage on jungle camps regularly, its cooldown scaled down per level, and you could apply the slow from range, I'm sure that priorities would change. Otherwise, the two skills are not equivalent.

Gragas's Q is guaranteed full damage on all of the camps, and has higher priority in Gragas' skill order. Also, you can toss the Q out before you get to the camp and let it cook before you get there. The cooldown starts ticking when Gragas tosses it, not when it detonates, so cut 3-4 seconds off of his first barrel's cooldown on the first buff, at least.

Don't you lol at me when you don't know what you're talking about.

[Fjolnir]

As a person who jungles Naut frequently, I completely concur, Titan's Wrath is the much better for clearing camps than Riptide because it's an auto-attack reset, gives bonus damage as well as splash damage and gives a better AA animation as well. I do use riptide in the jungle but it's usually because it can pull a camp closer and wrath is on CD...

[efdf]

It's not an auto reset. Also, Titan's Wrath being better than Riptide is not really relevant to the conversation of whether Riptide is comparable to Barrel Roll.

[Math_Mage]

It's not an auto reset. Also, Titan's Wrath being better than Riptide is not really relevant to the conversation of whether Riptide is comparable to Barrel Roll.

Nautilus W is definitely an auto reset. It was when I played, the wiki says it still is, and I don't see any patch notes that changed it.

But, it's true that comparing Nautilus clear to Gragas clear by comparing Riptide to Barrel Roll is missing the point because Nautilus doesn't emphasize Riptide in the first place.

[efdf]

huh, my mistake. I just always see it pre-casted so I assumed it didn't. I guess people prioritize shield uptime higher than auto reset most of the time.

[Forum Explorer]

man my internet has been complete **** for the last week. I haven't been able to keep up with this thread at all.


Anyways, for Team Concussive Therapy members, I believe we had agreed that due to the holidays this week, many of us wouldn't be able to play. I'll be on, but I'm not expecting anyone else to do so.

[Ionbound]

Well, started playing finally. Turns out I'm actually fairly decent at landing skillshots. And very, very terrible at support.

[ex cathedra]

for what it's worth i'm still unconvinced that gragas is particularly good in any role

Barrel is about equal(worse rank 1 CD by 1s, by rank 5 3s better, while damage per rank is worse all around), clear-wise as Riptide, and Riptide is not a good clearing tool.

lol

Well, started playing finally. Turns out I'm actually fairly decent at landing skillshots. And very, very terrible at support.

support ezreal/ziggs

[Qwertystop]

May or may not be able to make it to Newline tomorrow - up in Boston for orientation, leaving tomorrow afternoon, but not sure what time I'll be home by.

[Dusk Eclipse]

for what it's worth i'm still unconvinced that gragas is particularly good in any role

lol

support ezreal/ziggs

I actually played Support Ziggs in an all for 1 mirror mode match (just for the lulz) and it was pretty fun, slowing people with Rylaegs+IBG and being the tankiest Yordle on the bridge. I definitely wouldn't take it to a "serious" match though.