Legend of Korra Book 3: Bending over Backwards

[dehro]

@ Supposed S04 villainess:

Seriously??? I thought her strange cameos were foreshadowing her inclusion in Team No-Avatar. Y'know, the Korra-less new team formed around going on some quest to enable Korra's healing. It would've consisted of Bolin, Mako, Asami, umm Sue Yin's cute daughter, and this fierce-looking metal-guard girl. The other 4 would've paired off into 2 giggling couples during the adventure, while she remains the "I'm too badass for boys" warrior maiden dedicated to her goals.

Honestly her face doesn't look like a good fit for an evil character. She looks too much like a traditional Wuxia heroine. And while her lowly social posiiton fits for a spunky young protag, how is she relevant enough to be a villain? She's just a city guard, a mook job! Its advantage lies in having flexible hours suitable for adventures, not for grand scheming! But I guess we'll see.

I don't think there's enough ground for a proper rant about her. We've seen too little of her to form an opinion about her that can't be fundamentally altered by reveals and development. For instance, she could turn out to be grumpy lavabender's secret child, so secret that even he didn't know she exists (and plot can make her have had a horrible childhood because of daddy's arrest)... Just to make a random example. More importantly, we only know she's going to be main villain because of Internet, so it really is too soon to evaluate or even care about whether her denouement or subversion (as may be) makes sense and is a good one.

[Morph Bark]

Calling it now: infiltration agent.

Either a high-up who thought she couldn't trust anyone else with this assignment or someone who will later rise through the ranks of the Red Lotus. If it even has any ranks, because it'd be rather counter-intuitive for an anarchist group to have any real structure.

[Hyena]

She doesn't have to be connected to Red Lotus - just like Red Lotus wasn't (largely) connected to Unalaq, and Unalaq was completely independent villain from Amon. My point of few? Zaofu are our new antagonists. Yes, the whole city.

1) Zaofu is going to be heavily featured in season 4, because it has been built up in Change so much. Remember, how Lin's sister (didn't bother to remember her name) mentioned railway system, that is obviously going to be important? Varric, who is also obviously going to be important?
2) While Lin's sister and Kuvira are not with Red Lotus (come on, it's like "Asami is an equalist, even though she helped Team Avatar escape from Hiroshi" theories), there is something about them. Zaofu's ruler has criminal background and is absolutely unrepentant about it, she had a very strange aside glance when it turned out that Aiwei was the Mole and her criticism of Earth Queen is just screaming "I'm a visionary villain!"
3) We've had communist enemies (equalists), religious fanatics (Northern Water Tribe), anarchists (Red Lotus). Zaofu are very noticably libertarian. See the pattern here?

[Morph Bark]

That'd actually be pretty good. However, I very much doubt we've seen the last of the Red Lotus, especially with how they've been built up and it has been heavily hinted that Zaheer and his crew were only a fraction of them.

[LaZodiac]

That'd actually be pretty good. However, I very much doubt we've seen the last of the Red Lotus, especially with how they've been built up and it has been heavily hinted that Zaheer and his crew were only a fraction of them.

The two theories could work together. Unalaq had his own goals outside of the Red Lotus, maybe Sui has her own plans. Remember, she's not the ruler of the Metal Clan, she's the Matron. She runs the police but that's simply a job, she does not at any rate point show that she's the absolute ruler of the city and people listen to her, she's far to busy making super pretty metal bending art shows.

In a way, Zaofu is the ultimate Red Lotus city, showing how great a place can be with no real restrictions or rulers. It's a place where everyone can do as they please, working towards their own goals of enlightenment. I don't think this'll happen because I don't think Sui is Red Lotus, because if she was she would of known all this and helped Zaheer, but that doesn't mean our mysterious Metal Guard isn't.

[dehro]

I understood that she was founder and de facto ruler of the city and it never occurred to me that things could be any different.

[LaZodiac]

I understood that she was founder and de facto ruler of the city and it never occurred to me that things could be any different.

Well she also expressed dislike at the notion of kings and queens, which to me implied that she wasn't a real world leader type.

[MLai]

I think Sue Yin is actually the despot of the city, no matter what hippie title she calls herself by.

She lives in a palace, controls the city's military, answers to no higher authority, and makes executive decisions by herself which affect the entire city. The truthseer, the only character we meet which seems to function in any type of governmental/bureaucratic role, is directly servile to her. I never had the impression that the city is governed by some other body. Or if it is, that Sue Yin is subservient to its decisions in any way shape or form.

And we can't say the city has no governance. A city cannot survive without governance.

[dehro]

Well she also expressed dislike at the notion of kings and queens, which to me implied that she wasn't a real world leader type.

Then maybe she's the elected leader? Everything we've seen onscreen suggests she has final authority over the city
, what with having founded it on a plot of land owned by her. I don't remember if her role has ever been given a name though

[LaZodiac]

Then maybe she's the elected leader? Everything we've seen onscreen suggests she has final authority over the city
, what with having founded it on a plot of land owned by her. I don't remember if her role has ever been given a name though

It was, and she's called the Matron. Not king, not president, but Matron. She's just the city's Mom.

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out! It really could go either way actually.

[Metahuman1]

Metal Guard Lady: Look, for all we know, she's gonna be a freaking serial killer who's decided she wants the ultimate kills in the forms of highly placed/powerful people, and the guard job is just her setting herself up to be conveniently placed near some of them. The red Lotus? She's in different too them. Which means she's only gonna oppose them if they get directly in her way or attack her. She's got the thrill of the kill to pursue after all!

And look at the rather brutal on screen deaths we had later in season 3 and tell me that's not viable. Go ahead. Try.

Or maybe she's combustion bending lady's younger sister. (I'd love that cause I thought it was awesome that Combustion Bending Lady was like, 6'8ft. It was just a neat thing you don't see much of in any media when it's for the female characters.)

There are a lot of ways she could end up making perfect sense.



As for Sue: I think the point of the Metal Clan was suppose to be redemption. That hey, lock em all up and throw away the key always isn't necessarily the best way to handle things in all cases. That people can change and improve themselves with age and experience and wisdom gained there from.

And as a secondary, to make people think we were gonna have our third protracted round waiting on them to show they were manipulating Korra. And it worked. Seasons over. Were still waiting on that shoe to drop.

Though I grant I too am less clear on how there government works. If anything, it seems to work on something of a tribal Elders system, but with just one or two Elders in play at a time. Though I do like the point about "and just to come full circle in our philosophical extremes listings of bad guys, here's what happens when a Libertarian goes bad but does not become a Faciest or an Anarchist.".

He said as someone who tends to lean Libertarian.

[MLai]

As for Sue: I think the point of the Metal Clan was suppose to be redemption. That hey, lock em all up and throw away the key always isn't necessarily the best way to handle things in all cases. That people can change and improve themselves with age and experience and wisdom gained there from.

I know the lesson they were trying to convey, but the point is Sue showed no onscreen remorse whatsoever about her past. Her attitude was "Hey I said I'm sorry, what else do you want?" Tell me you don't want to punch a face when someone "apologizes" to you in that tone.

The way the story explains it is that in between the flashback and current events, she's already spent years trying to sincerely apologize to Lin to no avail. So by the time we see her, the only thing left is exasperation. Problem is we never see that as the audience. So AFAIC it's all heresay and the only thing I see with my eyes is her unapologetic attitude problem.

I don't even care that it's "less realistic" that she shows genuine remorse to Lin "just for our benefit." We need to see it to believe/internalize it.

[BRC]

I know the lesson they were trying to convey, but the point is Sue showed no onscreen remorse whatsoever about her past. Her attitude was "Hey I said I'm sorry, what else do you want?" Tell me you don't want to punch a face when someone "apologizes" to you in that tone.

The way the story explains it is that in between the flashback and current events, she's already spent years trying to sincerely apologize to Lin to no avail. So by the time we see her, the only thing left is exasperation. Problem is we never see that as the audience. So AFAIC it's all heresay and the only thing I see with my eyes is her unapologetic attitude problem.

I don't even care that it's "less realistic" that she shows genuine remorse to Lin "just for our benefit." We need to see it to believe/internalize it.

From a purely events-based perspective, it works. Sue's crimes happened decades ago, she's had plenty of time to repent and see the error of her ways. Its possible that she's spent lots of time genuinely apologizing to Lin and trying to make things right.

But we don't see that. We see Sue as a spoiled brat with no regard for the law who maims her sister and ruins her mother's career with her thrill-seeking recklessness, and we see the saintly Sue, with her shining city and loving family. We don't see the crucial Sue Worthy of Forgiveness. Just a Suyin who thinks she's done nothing wrong, and a Suyin who has already forgiven herself.

[Metahuman1]

From a purely events-based perspective, it works. Sue's crimes happened decades ago, she's had plenty of time to repent and see the error of her ways. Its possible that she's spent lots of time genuinely apologizing to Lin and trying to make things right.

Exactly. If the season had had another few eps to kill, then yeah, I'd have wanted to see a flash back ep for Sue were we get to watch her travels and some of the founding of the Metal Clan's city and her making numerous attempts to contact/apologize/set things right with Lin. But it didn't have time for that. And I'm glad they've gotten past trying to shove in more then they actually have time for.


Anyway, it's also worth noting that Lin was nice to team avatar (more so then usual.), but given that she'd just managed to unblock a lot of Chi and take the edge off some rather bad parts of her past and thus was in a better then average mood, that's understandable. Also remember that all she does is let her sister hug her one time and then push her off with out shanking her/trying to strangle her, and promise that the next time she sees her she won't open with tearing her home apart while trying to beat her to paste. After having torn her home apart trying to beat her to paste.

That doesn't strike me has horribly out of character. More so since like, one ep later she's immediately suspicious of Sue again.



Also MLai: You literally suggested going back into Love Triangle Territory with your new team avatar premise, since if Opal and Metal Guard Lady aren't dating Mako, but there's 2 pairs, and Metal Guard Lady is not in either of them cause she's too busy being stoic warrior badass lady to deal with that stuff, then Asami would have to hook up with Mako. Again.






As for what it would be like of Asami had air bending too, that's, actually an interesting though. Particularly if they had worked it out that Korra was tutoring her on Air Bending in a similar fashion to Asami trying to teach Korra how to drive. (Only with better results cause, hey, Asami's generally smarter and a better student then Korra about everything that isn't bending and maybe spiritual stuff. Maybe. Big Maybe.), and then at the end Jinora can take over from Korra tutoring Asami for awhile while Korra's rehabing.

[dehro]

We don't see the crucial Sue Worthy of Forgiveness. Just a Suyin who thinks she's done nothing wrong, and a Suyin who has already forgiven herself.

I'd like to see another flashback or an episode devoted to redemption go back to Suyin and cover that phase... there's at least another season where this might happen.

[LaZodiac]

You know that reminds me. I know it's NOT, but the way Korra and Asami bond over the season makes me think that some kind of weird Korrasami ship would make sense.

But like yeah it's NOT that, it can just easily be read as it.

[Metahuman1]

I have mixed feelings about KorraXAsami.

On the one hand, the chemistry is amazing and I'm all for being generally inclusive and people have the right to do as they please as long as doing as they please is neither picking someone else's Pocket nor Breaking someone else's leg. On the other, I am getting sick of this notion that seems to have caught on somewhere that two people can't just have a deep and meaningful friendship and wonderful chemistry as friends with out there having to be romance and lust involved on at least one side. This goes for Guy/Guy, Girl/Girl, Guy/Girl, Girl/Guy. So yeah, kinda torn on that one.

[MLai]

Exactly. If the season had had another few eps to kill, then yeah, I'd have wanted to see a flash back ep for Sue were we get to watch her travels and some of the founding of the Metal Clan's city and her making numerous attempts to contact/apologize/set things right with Lin. But it didn't have time for that.

You don't need that. You only need to have Sue react differently when Lin digs up the past. That's it.
She can appear/feel remorseful when Lin brings it up again, but still become angry when Lin takes it out on her daughter. She's allowed to get angry for that.

Also remember that all she does is let her sister hug her one time and then push her off with out shanking her/trying to strangle her, and promise that the next time she sees her she won't open with tearing her home apart while trying to beat her to paste. After having torn her home apart trying to beat her to paste.

IIRC, they immediately made up as soon as Lin woke up and walked out of her room. It was practically scripted; I was wondering at the time "Waitasec did I miss something here? What part of losing a fight and fainting convinced you that Sue is right and you're wrong?"

That doesn't strike me has horribly out of character. More so since like, one ep later she's immediately suspicious of Sue again.

Not nearly antagonistic enough. Sue went over Lin's head and sent the Avatar out by lying to Lin's face in the most manipulative manner conceivable (by pretending to agree with her in front of everybody). Lin's a police chief; she's not gonna bark out orders willy-nilly and then just forget about it later. It was not some joke.

But Lin did not react negatively to it at all, upon discovering that. OOC!

I'm sorry but, between adults, that is not how you resolve a difference of opinion in high-stakes operational strategy, Sue. Like I said, Sue hasn't changed a bit. If I can see it, Lin should have also.

Also MLai: You literally suggested going back into Love Triangle Territory with your new team avatar premise, since if Opal and Metal Guard Lady aren't dating Mako, but there's 2 pairs, and Metal Guard Lady is not in either of them cause she's too busy being stoic warrior badass lady to deal with that stuff, then Asami would have to hook up with Mako. Again..

I don't have a prob with Mako-Asami. I had a prob with Korra-Mako-Asami.
In my premise of Team No-Avatar, Korra isn't present.
The 2 pairs would by Mako-Asami and Bolin-Opal.
Ofc, Mako would look like the biggest slimiest prick ever, hooking up with Asami as soon as Korra is crippled and depressed. But hey, negative character is better than no character.

[LaZodiac]

I have mixed feelings about KorraXAsami.

On the one hand, the chemistry is amazing and I'm all for being generally inclusive and people have the right to do as they please as long as doing as they please is neither picking someone else's Pocket nor Breaking someone else's leg. On the other, I am getting sick of this notion that seems to have caught on somewhere that two people can't just have a deep and meaningful friendship and wonderful chemistry as friends with out there having to be romance and lust involved on at least one side. This goes for Guy/Guy, Girl/Girl, Guy/Girl, Girl/Guy. So yeah, kinda torn on that one.

Yeah, which is why I said that it's totally not a romance thing. They're just two really good friends. Because really, you know who your true friends are when you're crippled with Mercury and horrible depressed and sick as all hell, and they help you get dressed up nice for your friend's (though technically grand daughter in a spiritual sense) big ceremony celebrating how awesome they are.

[Metahuman1]

You don't need that. You only need to have Sue react differently when Lin digs up the past. That's it.
She can appear/feel remorseful when Lin brings it up again, but still become angry when Lin takes it out on her daughter. She's allowed to get angry for that.


IIRC, they immediately made up as soon as Lin woke up and walked out of her room. It was practically scripted; I was wondering at the time "Waitasec did I miss something here? What part of losing a fight and fainting convinced you that Sue is right and you're wrong?"


Not nearly antagonistic enough. Sue went over Lin's head and sent the Avatar out by lying to Lin's face in the most manipulative manner conceivable (by pretending to agree with her in front of everybody). Lin's a police chief; she's not gonna bark out orders willy-nilly and then just forget about it later. It was not some joke.

But Lin did not react negatively to it at all, upon discovering that. OOC!

I'm sorry but, between adults, that is not how you resolve a difference of opinion in high-stakes operational strategy, Sue. Like I said, Sue hasn't changed a bit. If I can see it, Lin should have also.


I don't have a prob with Mako-Asami. I had a prob with Korra-Mako-Asami.
In my premise of Team No-Avatar, Korra isn't present.
The 2 pairs would by Mako-Asami and Bolin-Opal.
Ofc, Mako would look like the biggest slimiest prick ever, hooking up with Asami as soon as Korra is crippled and depressed. But hey, negative character is better than no character.

Ya kind of due if it's not gonna be out of left field and feel scripted in an "It's there cause the plot said so." kinda way. Which is what your trying to fix, right?


Lin walked out, was asked how she was feeling, said she felt better (see the comments about finally taking the edge off some of her issues by getting some sorely needed venting and getting some long screwed up Chi Pathways some long needed repair work in a setting were Chi is outright acknowledged universally as a thing.), says she's sorry for the mess (Tearing Sue's home apart in the fight.), and Sue basically says not to worry about it, then get's excited and invites Lin to live with her full time, and hugs her briefly before Lin pushes Sue off her and says something to the effect of "slow down, how about we start with me promising not to destroy your home and try to break every bone in your body next time we cross paths?" and Sue agrees to it.

And the fighting was less "I was right and you were wrong" and more "damn it I have needed to at least try to inflict violence on your for this **** for decades and now I'm finally doing it with full interest!" which resulted in "ok, I got scared, she got her house destroyed and her share of bruises, I got the adrenaline rush and the worst of the anger out of my system. I'm feeling a little better on the whole, so, hey."


No, Sue Pacified Lin for a few hours so Lin wouldn't let the bad guys play her like a fiddle to there advantage, again. (Which if you recall previous seasons the Badguys of this show have established there rather good at doing.) The avatar needs to be in the world, active, dealing with problems. They have repeatedly established in this franchise that when that's not the case, really, really bad stuff happens. Hundred years war with the Fire Nation and the genocide of the Airbenders in episode 1,2 and 3 of LAB. And then because of the laps of Avatar Activity that happened after Aang passed away and before Korra got to Republic City, the bending Triads, the problems with the earth queen, Korra's Uncle and the water tribe and Amon and Tarrlock had all gotten under way well before Korra started to become active, and serious headway toward fixing those problems didn't start getting made till after she was active as the Avatar. Sheltering her doesn't help anyone. Not her, not her guards or teachers, not the world at large.

As for Lin not reacting negatively, she had a crisis situation now in front of her from were she's standing. She's spent an entire career being trained to deal with the crises were people's lives are in danger first, and then scream at the guilty party's afterwords. For all we know as soon as Korra and Tenzin were getting medical attention and Zaheer was secure again, she was reading Sue the riot act for that one.



Um, Mako having no character is an outdated argument. He's the professional. He's the guy who's all serious, has a half decent head for tactics, a good head for investigation and finding the things and people that need to be found. He's also the straight-man, Contrast Bolin who's the funny guy, Korra who's defiantly more heart then head and learning to temper the former with the latter and the decided power house of the group, and Asami who'd got the brains and tact departments bought and owned lock,stock and barrel.

Hooking him up with Asami, again, is character assassination for both of them. I'd rather not have that, particularly not now that there already looking to get canceled right as there hitting there stride anyway.




Edit: Zodiac:

Exactly. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd be totally for them making out at some point on camera next season or something, but I'm totally cool with not doing that two and just there seriously good friends. (And hell, they've literally been at one anthers side facing down Fantasy Nazi take overs and the end of humanity + minimum 10,000 years of darkness through out the universe. If that doesn't forge a bond between you and the other person, at least one of you has no soul.)

[thorgrim29]

For me Mako was at his best at the beginning of season 2. He was professionnal, didn't get involved in the water tribe and Varrick shenanigans, and generally acted as a mature, morally upright human being. Compare to season 1 where he's basically there to provide romantic tension and season 3 where he barely has a role until the last episode.

[Hyena]

I never understood hate for this character. I like Mako. He's quiet, he's professional, he's serious - yes, he may seem bland at times, but I think that majorirty of his hatred comes from shippers.

[Ramza00]

I never understood hate for this character. I like Mako. He's quiet, he's professional, he's serious - yes, he may seem bland at times, but I think that majorirty of his hatred comes from shippers.

Think of it like this a character in a show can be

1) A sense of pain for the view / and you dread seeing them.

2) A neutral, meh character

3) A sense of enjoyment, delightment, and wonder...this is the reason why many people watch tv.

Mako is 1 and 2. Bolin is a mixture of 1 and 3. Thus people are neutral or hate Mako but Bolin has some fans.

In other words they need to have Mako do something awesome, not look awesome like taking down the triple triads truck or electrocuting water Azula, but something that causes us to see the character as grown even if in reality its the same old Mako. The only opportunity they really had to do this in Season 3 was his interaction with Kai but instead of being good that was just painful to watch.

[BRC]

Hooking him up with Asami, again, is character assassination for both of them. I'd rather not have that, particularly not now that there already looking to get canceled right as there hitting there stride anyway.

I don't think "Canceled" is the right word. The impression I'm getting is that book 4 was always intended to be the last season of Korra.

As for Mako, he's not a bad character when he's playing the straight man to Bolin's goofiness, investigating things, or even just providing some direction and gravitas to serious scenes.

The problem is that for the first, and a good deal of the second, season, Mako was defined by his part in stupid, poorly written Love Triangles.

He was never that great a character, but because he was the romantic interest, he got more screentime at the expense of his far more entertaining brother. Meanwhile, the love triangles kind of tainted his character. Even the more interesting "Mako-as-detective" stuff in season 2 got mixed up in the love triangle plot.


The other issue is that, once you strip away the stupid love triangle stuff, there isn't that much left of Mako. He's a functional character, but he's not entertaining like the rest of the cast. He's rational and professional, he does not crack jokes, he has no real emotional arc to go through.

He's a decent Bender, but so is 90% of the cast. He's a good detective, but they can't do detective stuff all the time. He dosn't really have much in the way of chemistry or an interesting dynamic with the rest of the cast.

People hate him because of the old love triangle stuff, but even with that gone there isn't much to make him interesting.

[Morty]

You know that reminds me. I know it's NOT, but the way Korra and Asami bond over the season makes me think that some kind of weird Korrasami ship would make sense.

But like yeah it's NOT that, it can just easily be read as it.

Korra certainly has more chemistry with Asami in this season than she ever had with Mako after Episode Five of the first season, even though Asami had been underused in the first season and a non-entity in the second one - I guess talking about how much Mako sucks is a good thing to bond over. I could see it happening, but I know it won't - it's probably for the best, though. I'm pretty convinced by now that the Avatar writers just can't write romance - the best they can do is inoffensive and unobtrusive, like Sokka and Suki's pairing in Last Airbender. Let Korra stay single - it's better this way. Romantic or not, Korra's relationship with Asami is the best one she's had, really, and it made Korra a lot more sympathetic in my eyes.

[MLai]

No, Sue Pacified Lin for a few hours so Lin wouldn't let the bad guys play her like a fiddle to there advantage, again.

I'm losing track of what you're talking about-- Oh right, you want to convince someone that the Lin-Sueyin dynamic was as good as it could've been. I think I've said almost as much as I can on it. If you can't see that that fight, as the way it went, should not have and could not have resolved anything by itself... then I don't know what to tell you. They're not kids who can make up automagically, after one little scuffle.

And it's not about who's right in operational strategy. It's about them being the only 2 real adults in the room, and 1 of them blatantly manipulates the other in front of everyone in order to go behind her back to do exactly what she says not to do.
The kicker is Lin never actually comes around to saying "Y'know what I was so wrong last night, thanks for going behind my back, it was necessary." She just kind of goes "Oh well, typical Sueyin" and goes about her business. Yes Lin, that typical Sueyin behavior that caused you to hate her for 30 years? Why u no mad?

Um, Mako having no character is an outdated argument.

Don't care. Already said: I don't mind Mako-Asami. I thought they went pretty good together. Until Korra barged in and tried to milk Zutara.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Don't care. Already said: I don't mind Mako-Asami. I thought they went pretty good together. Until Korra barged in and tried to milk Zutara.

the worst part is..Bolin/Korra was a good pairing.

[cobaltstarfire]

the worst part is..Bolin/Korra was a good pairing.

I kind of felt the same way on that front, they seemed like a good pairing anyway. They still do now, but I think a platonic relationship works really well for them too.


I have my fingers crossed that season 4 will have Bolin being less stupid and more like he was at the beginning of the series. I have some hope for it in part because he kind of got a tiny minor arc on believing himself and acting naturally. (taking his stupidity as him simply acting out because he's nervous ect).

[MLai]

I honestly can't think of any character in Avatarverse or outside, who would make a good romantic match with Korra. Anyone have any suggestions?

[Dragonus45]

A younger Zuko.