Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?

[GloatingSwine]

I tried to read this book but had to stop once it was explained that the spaceships fought like navel ships. I absolutely hate that. Space is three dimensional, so should the combat

Age of sail combat iiiin spaaaaace was the point of the series, really.


If you want some grand political drama with pew pew spaceships they've just started releasing translated versions of the original Legend of the Galactic Heroes novels, and those are well worth picking up.

[The Glyphstone]

And for that matter, it's not entirely accurate to say they fight in two dimensions. Fleet tactics, formations and ship maneuvering are absolutely three-dimensional, especially when it gets down to the small ships engaged in 1-on-1 duels, and strategies involve the 3-D-ness of space all the dang time when it comes to stuff like the elliptic layout of a star system. it's the design of the ships that are like Age of Sail vessels, with broadside-mounted weapons, capital ship squadrons flying and fighting in formations (even if they form 'the wall' instead of 'the line' to respect said third dimension), and at least some respect paid to Isaac Newton as far as maneuvering goes. So if the only thing keeping you off at least trying them out is secondhand 'they're like naval ships', you've been fed incomplete information.

[GloatingSwine]

And for that matter, it's not entirely accurate to say they fight in two dimensions. Fleet tactics, formations and ship maneuvering are absolutely three-dimensional, especially when it gets down to the small ships engaged in 1-on-1 duels, and strategies involve the 3-D-ness of space all the dang time when it comes to stuff like the elliptic layout of a star system. it's the design of the ships that are like Age of Sail vessels, with broadside-mounted weapons, capital ship squadrons flying and fighting in formations (even if they form 'the wall' instead of 'the line' to respect said third dimension), and at least some respect paid to Isaac Newton as far as maneuvering goes. So if the only thing keeping you off at least trying them out is secondhand 'they're like naval ships', you've been fed incomplete information.

Yeah, but the technology of the 'verse was specifically invented the way it was to make the ships fight the way they do. It was "I want an excuse to have sailing ships firing broadsides in space, I shall invent excuse tech to make it happen".

[HandofShadows]

Yeah, but the technology of the 'verse was specifically invented the way it was to make the ships fight the way they do. It was "I want an excuse to have sailing ships firing broadsides in space, I shall invent excuse tech to make it happen".

Which is subverted in the later books as the tech changes and totally different tactics are used.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, but the technology of the 'verse was specifically invented the way it was to make the ships fight the way they do. It was "I want an excuse to have sailing ships firing broadsides in space, I shall invent excuse tech to make it happen".

Yeah, absolutely true. Just saying that while it is sailing ships in space (especially with the physics of FTL travel, I forgot that bit), there's plenty of concessions to the three-dimensional nature of the environment they are fighting in.

[Cikomyr]

I really don't mind the whole "broadside battles" style. It's funky, and it allows the writer to write about what he actually knows.

The really good stuff, in my opinion, is the Naval Military feel. The way officers behave toward one another, their tradition, their outlook and behaviour. Makes me feel to be in Battlestar Galactica much more than in Star Trek. IT'S A NAVY, goddamnit. I love it.


the People's Republic of Haven is... certainly interesting, so far. Not entirely stupid; huge societal flaws, perhaps. But not stupid. They acknowledge what they did wrong in the last book; I love it. They certainly won't underestimate Manticore's tech level again.

They are a very interesting mix of.. the People's Republic of China and the SPQR. Their entire legislative-aristocracy (as well as the name) for the first, and their ever tendency to keep conquering just to get the extra quick buck for the 2nd.

Their status as Napoleonic Empire is.. only as to their actual role as a "Republican Rival" to the "Monarchy Naval Superpower". But they have very little in common with Napoleon.

[Douglas]

The really good stuff, in my opinion, is the Naval Military feel. The way officers behave toward one another, their tradition, their outlook and behaviour. Makes me feel to be in Battlestar Galactica much more than in Star Trek. IT'S A NAVY, goddamnit. I love it.

That's one thing Weber does very well. It's interesting to watch, sometimes, as Honor gradually climbs the rank ladder through the series, eventually having to interact with the sometimes-political policy decisions and string-pulling that no one likes to admit is inevitable.

the People's Republic of Haven is... certainly interesting, so far. Not entirely stupid; huge societal flaws, perhaps. But not stupid. They acknowledge what they did wrong in the last book; I love it. They certainly won't underestimate Manticore's tech level again.

They are a very interesting mix of.. the People's Republic of China and the SPQR. Their entire legislative-aristocracy (as well as the name) for the first, and their ever tendency to keep conquering just to get the extra quick buck for the 2nd.

Their status as Napoleonic Empire is.. only as to their actual role as a "Republican Rival" to the "Monarchy Naval Superpower". But they have very little in common with Napoleon.

Huge societal flaws is an understatement of impressive enormity. Fortunately the top leaders are well aware of the flaws, but they have a hard time figuring out how to fix them because shifting basic self-interested societal attitudes in a population of many billions is rather difficult and that's what it would take.

They'll certainly try to not underestimate Manticore's tech level, but there's this problem: Manticore's tech level advances. And I don't mean just in the writer fiat "X capability is Y percent better" sense, Haven does get pretty good about anticipating that sort of improvement. It's when Manticore introduces an entirely new combat tech concept that Haven really gets caught out. By the current books, space combat involving Manticore or Haven is very different from in the first few.

There's another really major upcoming historical country reference in Haven's political developments, but besides being a spoiler that's really verging uncomfortably close to real world politics.

[The Glyphstone]

That's one thing Weber does very well. It's interesting to watch, sometimes, as Honor gradually climbs the rank ladder through the series, eventually having to interact with the sometimes-political policy decisions and string-pulling that no one likes to admit is inevitable.

It is, that's where his writing is best. Not coincidentally, I find that his two weakest books are Field of Dishonor and War of Honor, both of which Honor spends almost the entire book grounded/beached (even if FoD is so immensely satisfying at the end for reasons).

[Cheesegear]

both of which Honor spends almost the entire book grounded/beached

Please. Echoes of Honor has her grounded the entire book, and it's awesome.

[The Glyphstone]

Please. Echoes of Honor has her grounded the entire book, and it's awesome.

Echoes is a completely different situation, and you very well know why.

[Rodin]

This thread got me thinking about the series again, and checking the book list I've realized the last one I read was Mission of Honor, released in 2010. That means I've missed A Rising Thunder from the main series, Shadow of Freedom from the Sagnami Island series, and the entirety of the Manticore Ascendant series.

Are these any good? And by that, I mean "are they improved over the last 3 books of the main series?" The plots for all 3 had me rolling my eyes at them, but I do still rather miss Weber's writing.

I'm particularly curious about Manticore Ascendant, since as a prequel that would avoid the seasonal rot that's afflicting the main plotline.

[Rakaydos]

I'm particularly curious about Manticore Ascendant, since as a prequel that would avoid the seasonal rot that's afflicting the main plotline.

There's a few nods to the main continuity in Manticore Ascendant- there's a notable scene where our Hero is trying to explain to a superior that Multi Drive Missiles are impossible, that physics simply do not allow it to work.

The main chracter is a bit heavier into the technical aspects than Honor ever was, which means it tends to resemble Scotty's Kolbiashi Maru run.

[brionl]

This thread got me thinking about the series again, and checking the book list I've realized the last one I read was Mission of Honor, released in 2010. That means I've missed A Rising Thunder from the main series, Shadow of Freedom from the Sagnami Island series, and the entirety of the Manticore Ascendant series.

Are these any good? And by that, I mean "are they improved over the last 3 books of the main series?" The plots for all 3 had me rolling my eyes at them, but I do still rather miss Weber's writing.

I'm particularly curious about Manticore Ascendant, since as a prequel that would avoid the seasonal rot that's afflicting the main plotline.

I'm kind of meh about Manticore Ascendant. It's OK but not great.

The Treecat books are OK-ish too, but they are "young-adult" books so the plots have a lot of romantic shenanigans and stuff like that there. I give them a resounding "sure, why not".

[russdm]

I am trying to figure out how much the Sollies are supposed to be like Russia from the Crimean War, because it felt like that the influence had moved on to that from the Napleonic Wars, or whether the Sollies are supposed to fit in for allowing the war of 1812.

[Foeofthelance]

I am trying to figure out how much the Sollies are supposed to be like Russia from the Crimean War, because it felt like that the influence had moved on to that from the Napleonic Wars, or whether the Sollies are supposed to fit in for allowing the war of 1812.

I'm not sure there really is a historical equivalent at this point, at least not since "Napoleon" got nuked before she could properly take the stage. That and Eric Flint's massive derailment of the plan to kill Honor means if we're close to anything historical, its more like WWI and WWII where the major empires started crumbling under the strain of the conflicts and technology started to outstrip tactical doctrine.

[The Glyphstone]

Let's try to remember spoiler tags, people - we do have a neophyte to the series now in-thread.

[digiman619]

Someone up-thread made a comparison of Honor to Batman, but the difference is that Honor is in a relatively hard sci-fi military action series, while Batman is friends with Superman, a man who treats the laws of physics are merely suggestions. Sorry to intrude onto this discussion, but that was so egregious that I had to say something.

[Cikomyr]

They'll certainly try to not underestimate Manticore's tech level, but there's this problem: Manticore's tech level advances. And I don't mean just in the writer fiat "X capability is Y percent better" sense, Haven does get pretty good about anticipating that sort of improvement. It's when Manticore introduces an entirely new combat tech concept that Haven really gets caught out. By the current books, space combat involving Manticore or Haven is very different from in the first few.

There's another really major upcoming historical country reference in Haven's political developments, but besides being a spoiler that's really verging uncomfortably close to real world politics.

Its hilarious . Because that was precisely Admiral Hampill's argument in the first book. In fact, the second book acknowledges the game-changer innovation she put forward (the outlying sensor drones network)

Hampill was wrong about the Grav Lance, sure. But her dogged determination of revolutionizing Space Warfare with new technologies and techniques seems to be winning the day. Not bad for a character built almost like a strawman in her first book.

[Douglas]

Its hilarious . Because that was precisely Admiral Hampill's argument in the first book. In fact, the second book acknowledges the game-changer innovation she put forward (the outlying sensor drones network)

Hampill was wrong about the Grav Lance, sure. But her dogged determination of revolutionizing Space Warfare with new technologies and techniques seems to be winning the day. Not bad for a character built almost like a strawman in her first book.

Heh, yeah, Hemphill got a rather drastic characterization overhaul after book 1. Going by later book characterization, she was completely right about the general principle of needing new concepts, her mistake was merely in not paying enough attention to the flaws and drawbacks of specific ideas. The concept of the grav lance had potential, but its range was inadequate for the existing combat environment; Honor was correct that installing it on an active duty warship was a bad idea, but the right idea was putting R&D on the problem of increasing its range, not giving up on it - not unless the R&D folks come back with a report of "can't be done".

P.S. In case you didn't notice this detail (it's not clear from your post), the game-changer in book 2 was not having an outlying network of sensor drones. Sensor drones have been around forever, the new thing was having FTL communication.

[Cikomyr]

Heh, yeah, Hemphill got a rather drastic characterization overhaul after book 1. Going by later book characterization, she was completely right about the general principle of needing new concepts, her mistake was merely in not paying enough attention to the flaws and drawbacks of specific ideas. The concept of the grav lance had potential, but its range was inadequate for the existing combat environment; Honor was correct that installing it on an active duty warship was a bad idea, but the right idea was putting R&D on the problem of increasing its range, not giving up on it - not unless the R&D folks come back with a report of "can't be done".

P.S. In case you didn't notice this detail (it's not clear from your post), the game-changer in book 2 was not having an outlying network of sensor drones. Sensor drones have been around forever, the new thing was having FTL communication.

Yhea, right. I remember now. Comm through gravitics

[HandofShadows]

Heh, yeah, Hemphill got a rather drastic characterization overhaul after book 1. Going by later book characterization, she was completely right about the general principle of needing new concepts, her mistake was merely in not paying enough attention to the flaws and drawbacks of specific ideas. The concept of the grav lance had potential, but its range was inadequate for the existing combat environment; Honor was correct that installing it on an active duty warship was a bad idea, but the right idea was putting R&D on the problem of increasing its range, not giving up on it - not unless the R&D folks come back with a report of "can't be done".

I really don't think there was much of an actual change, more of an expansion. "Horrible Hemphill" is never portrayed as being unethical and even Honor didn't think she was responsible for Fearless being sent to Basilisk Station. Maybe it was the failure with the Grav Lance that cause Hemphill to start listening to feedback more.

[The Glyphstone]

The short story 'With One Stone' gives a bit of insight into both Hemphil and the roots of the grav com, incidentally.

[brionl]

I'm not sure there really is a historical equivalent at this point, at least not since "Napoleon" got nuked before she could properly take the stage. That and Eric Flint's massive derailment of the plan to kill Honor means if we're close to anything historical, its more like WWI and WWII where the major empires started crumbling under the strain of the conflicts and technology started to outstrip tactical doctrine.

I always thought the Sollies were more like the Ottoman Empire.

[DomaDoma]

I loved book one.

Book nine was the one that drove me nuts. It's got maybe 150 pages of relevant stuff happening and 700 pages of Honor catching up with various friends and relatives. If it were the length of The Short Victorious War, it would probably have been the most powerful book in the series. Alas, the bloat overtook it.

But yes, book ten was the point at which I quit. We're still unanimous there.

[Gnoman]

I really don't think there was much of an actual change, more of an expansion. "Horrible Hemphill" is never portrayed as being unethical and even Honor didn't think she was responsible for Fearless being sent to Basilisk Station. Maybe it was the failure with the Grav Lance that cause Hemphill to start listening to feedback more.

Hemphill's problem wasn't that her focus on technological improvements was good, it was that she ignored the tactical realities that caused the tactical stalemate she was obsessed with breaking. The grav lance was a perfect example - under any normal circumstances, anything approaching to within Grav Lance range of a hostile ship, let alone a hostile wall of battle, would be vaporized by energy weapons before getting there, because 100,000 kilometers is a suicidally short range in this setting. The other two proposals mentioned in the first book had similarly fatal flaws - the LAC swarm she was pushing would never have worked because LAC missiles are too light to inflict heavy damage on a waller, while trying to fit a spinal mount on a full-sized warship would have had little benefit at a very high cost in mass. Hemphill didn't change, it was simply that once she got her head filled with an idea that was actually useful the same stubbornness that she used to try ramming rubbish through helped push the good ideas through too. Teaming up with the crazy inventiveness of Grayson helped a lot as well, of course.

Although to be fair:

Spoiler

Show

The two biggest tactical innovations in the series (the SD(P) and the CLAC) were built out of scraps of her bad ideas even while proving that they wouldn't have worked. Missile pods were resurrected primarily because her LAC obsession led to the development of miniaturized launch-assist mass drivers, while the CLACs were an attempt to pull off the LAC swarm (the Shrike even used her spinal mount). After BUTTERCUP, combat proved that LACs were inadequate for the strike role against wallers, but they were quite good against lighter ships and further development of the concept led to an unmatchable missile defense system.

[HandofShadows]

Not quiet. Hemphill is stated as creating an unofficial network of people with the express purpose of giving direct (on the ground) feedback on new developments/tech. I can't remember the story though.

[The Glyphstone]

Not quiet. Hemphill is stated as creating an unofficial network of people with the express purpose of giving direct (on the ground) feedback on new developments/tech. I can't remember the story though.

That wasn't Hemphill, that was another admiral - Jonas Adcock, if my memory and Honorwiki lead me correct - involved in the process. It was pointedly called out that if Hemphill ever found out that lower-ranking officers were being asked to 'second-guess' her, she wouldn't be happy.

[Rodin]

I loved book one.

Book nine was the one that drove me nuts. It's got maybe 150 pages of relevant stuff happening and 700 pages of Honor catching up with various friends and relatives. If it were the length of The Short Victorious War, it would probably have been the most powerful book in the series. Alas, the bloat overtook it.

But yes, book ten was the point at which I quit. We're still unanimous there.

Funnily enough, book nine was the one that got me into the series. I found it in the parking lot of a grocery store while I was pushing carts for a summer job, and then wound up reading it in a single night despite the extreme difficulty of doing so without ANY context from the previous 8 books.

I still rate it highly, too. I like Weber's slow bits as much as the fast stuff, and really only have a problem with his villainous plotters who all tend to look the same after a while. Fortunately, Haven manages to avoid that.

[DomaDoma]

I do like it when S.M. Stirling does it, admittedly. I think I'm much more interested in civilian life after the Change than I am in the Manticore system. Maybe if they spent more time dealing with life on... that planet with three times Earth's gravity whose name currently escapes me.

As for villains who all look the same - keeping in mind that my knowledge of At All Costs and beyond is strictly hearsay - I have to nominate the pusillanimous obstructionist politicians. Seriously, if their name isn't Pavel Young, could you definitively tell me which character I'm talking about just from a description of their actions?

[Rodin]

I do like it when S.M. Stirling does it, admittedly. I think I'm much more interested in civilian life after the Change than I am in the Manticore system. Maybe if they spent more time dealing with life on... that planet with three times Earth's gravity whose name currently escapes me.

As for villains who all look the same - keeping in mind that my knowledge of At All Costs and beyond is strictly hearsay - I have to nominate the pusillanimous obstructionist politicians. Seriously, if their name isn't Pavel Young, could you definitively tell me which character I'm talking about just from a description of their actions?

Pavel Young actually doesn't fit - he was pretty unique in Honorverse terms. He was well-written for what he was.

For the rest, it's not just this series but rather Weber villains in general - the villains on Grayson, the bad guys from the Safehold series, the bad guys from his War God series, the villains who show up in Mission of Honor....etc etc.

They're all shadowy conspirator types and all sort of generically evil, and I've never been able to get interested in their plotlines. Even the worst of the Havenites (with a couple of exceptions) were generally well fleshed out characters with very believable motivations that you could at least somewhat sympathize with.

I should also clarify that when I say villain, I do NOT refer to "honorable opponent" types like Thomas Theisman and Lester Tourville. All of those characters are superb. It's the moustache-twirling guys tying treecats to the railroad tracks I object to.