Honor Harrington - Should I pick it up?

[Rodin]

Yeah, that's why they hit a Peep Dred in "A Short Victorious War" with regular nukes after it's sidewalls had been taken down in first strike.

IIRC, the reasoning given is that sidewalls make it so that you need a direct contact hit with a nuke to damage the ship, otherwise the sidewall just shrugs off the explosion. With sidewalls, it's really hard to get a hit through the point defense and thus nukes become virtually useless. Without sidewalls, there is no such protection and the nukes can detonate at a greater distance and deal far more damage than laserheads, making them the weapon of choice.

Hence the mixed armament - primarily laser heads, but still carrying a few nukes in case you get the opportunity to either attack a ship without sidewalls or cross an opponent's T and fire down the open front of their wedge.

[Gnoman]

Yeah, that's why they hit a Peep Dred in "A Short Victorious War" with regular nukes after it's sidewalls had been taken down in first strike.

Incorrect.

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It was the Battlecruiser Malik, which had not only sidewalls down but had also lost her impeller wedge and had been evacuated. It was a defenseless, immobile target.

The only real use for contact nukes at this point in the universe's timeline is demolition purposes, such as the outlying Grayson infrastructure attacked in the previous book. This is the entire reason missiles were relegated to skirmishing weapons with the shorter-ranged energy weapons being the real shipkillers. Contact nukes stuck around because early laser heads (using fundamentally the same tech as Project EXCALIBUR in the 1980s) didn't get enough energy from the nuclear explosion to punch through capital-grade armor.

By the mid-1800s PD (the first book of the series takes place in 1901), engineers had developed a gravitic lens that focused the nuclear blast into a disk rather than a sphere, greatly reducing the amount of energy wasted into space and allowing the lasing rods to generate a truly powerful blast. They were thus still relatively new weapons when the series started, which is why Fearless ran out during First Basilisk. They were still far less powerful than shipboard energy mounts, and the limitations of shipboard launch tubes prevented salvos dense enough to overcome this limitation.

[Cikomyr]

Finished A Short and Victorious War yesterday, and i ate through Field of Dishonor.

Man these were fun. The action of Short and Victorious was brief, but well made. The whole story is one massive, tense buildup.

The political shennanigans of Field of Dishonor was a sweet change of pace. I love just how badly Weber threw the status quo off the rails.

[ImperiousLeader]

I enjoy the series, it's a good mix of Battle-porn, Techno-porn and Competence-porn. Sadly, book 10 was an overload of Meeting-porn, and I'm just not into that.

Okay, removing tongue from cheek, I do like the series. I like Honor, and don't find her a Mary Sue, or at least, she's an enjoyable enough character that it doesn't bother me. The "Age of Sail" combat IN SPACE is done well. I even bought "House of Steel" 'cause I like the tech enough to want half a tech bible. Yes, Book 10, is terrible, but I thought At All Costs was pretty good, and the series seems to be closing on a finale that I want to read.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: At All Costs

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I think if AAC has flaws, it's that Weber tried to salvage too much of his original story bible and material. There's large chunks of the book that are clearly Honor's swan song, getting ready to pull the heartstrings for her sacrifice at the end. Meshed in with the other bits and the eventual revised ending of the Battle of Manticore, they feel a little clumsy.

[Cheesegear]

The political shennanigans of Field of Dishonor was a sweet change of pace. I love just how badly Weber threw the status quo off the rails.

Incidentally, that's exactly why a lot of people think FoD is one of the worst books in the series - but not worse than #10. Nothing is worse than #10.

[Cikomyr]

Incidentally, that's exactly why a lot of people think FoD is one of the worst books in the series - but not worse than #10. Nothing is worse than #10.

I suppose if you trickle-read as they came out, it might be upsetting. But my bing reading the series turned it into a refreshing change of pace.

[Silfir]

I think the main issue is that if you settled into the series after the first three books expecting Honor to get into one major naval encounter after another and making it out alive through sheer force of will and brilliance, the lack of any ship battles in Field of Dishonor is kind of upsetting. It doesn't help that Pavel is a contemptible pile of human scum - and as that, not very interesting - and we were all rather hoping to be rid of him long before the book started.

What it doesn't have is long stretches of nothing happening but rehashes, pointless interludes and such - that kind of starts with #7, as far as I can tell. I'm still on #9, and it had the first scene in it that I actually did have to skim past - pages upon pages of characters talking about tree cats and sign language. #10 is supposed to be even worse?

[Cheesegear]

I'm still on #9, and it had the first scene in it that I actually did have to skim past - pages upon pages of characters talking about tree cats and sign language. #10 is supposed to be even worse?

I will be the first to tell you that #9 gets so much better.

#10 is simply a novel-long introduction to #11. Numbers 10 and 11 feel like a two-part movie. Absolutely nothing at all happens in #10, everything that happens in the book isn't paid off until #11. Just like a terrible movie series that splits its last movie into two parts. Actually, yes. That's a perfect analogy. Everything that everyone has been doing has been leading up to At All Costs, you just have to slog through War of Honor first.

[Cikomyr]

I think the main issue is that if you settled into the series after the first three books expecting Honor to get into one major naval encounter after another and making it out alive through sheer force of will and brilliance, the lack of any ship battles in Field of Dishonor is kind of upsetting. It doesn't help that Pavel is a contemptible pile of human scum - and as that, not very interesting - and we were all rather hoping to be rid of him long before the book started.

I kind of understand the upset at the lack of ship battles, but i disagree with it. The overall theme started to be a little bit predictable and repetitive to my taste.

Yes, Young was one massive pile of turd, and thats actually insulting to turds (which actually have a proper use). But then, it was satisfying to see him descend into a paranoid cowardness state. Honor really appeared as the neverstopping Juggernaut.

I have to say, i also liked the buildup and resolution of Honor's duel with Summerdale. Her provoking him by bitchslapping a dozen time was so entertaining, and it was nice to see the Cool Killer gets thrown off balance.

I was really wondering if Weber would pull a "she is just that fast/good" unsatisfying resolution, or perhaps use some rule bending (i half expected Honor to insist they duel following some Grayson tradition). But no, the outcome was brilliant and worthwhile. The entire deriding Summerdale does of Honor's duelling style pays off, even Honor's choice of Protocole actually makes strategic sense.

Summerdale was suckered in playing the game the "proper" way, and just be unbeatable at it. He never considered alternative style that would break the standard form. Thats a fantastic and brilliant analogy for so many classic David V Goliath duels.

[HandofShadows]

The "duel" with Summerdale wasn't David vs Goliath. In skill they likely where nearly evenly matched. What totaly gave Honor the win was that Summerdale used the rules of the game to his advantage, Honor played a different game.

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Best example is the duel itself. Sommerdale use the classic dualist form. Honor didn't. She used a gunfighters/quickdraw form and shot from the hip. That takes a lot less time to get on target than what Summerdale did.

Also Summerdale didn't do nearly enough basic research on Honor and greatly underestimated her.

[The Glyphstone]

Her cyber-eye, for example. He either didn't know about it, or failed to take into account how it would improve her accuracy to have a built-in rangefinger and targeting crosshair in her vision.

I'm reminded of a line from another series I've read, the Destroyermen novels. An antagonist character, shortly before his death, remarks that he's been doing treachery and skullduggery so long that what he once considered to be play had become work - whereas his opposite number among the good guys was so skilled and naturally inclined to said skullduggery that what was work had become play for him. That's Summervale in a nutshell; he's an excellent duelist, but he'd been coasting so long on his reputation that he'd stopped taking his opponents seriously (daydreaming about the pattern your bullet holes would make in her uniform, and you call yourself a professional?), and that killed him when he met Honor who takes everything she does deadly seriously.

Though personally, the scene between him and Ramierez in the chateau was as or even more satisfying. "I said I wouldn't kill you. I never said I wouldn't hurt you...", says the man who can probably bench-press trucks without power armor assistance.

[Cikomyr]

The "duel" with Summerdale wasn't David vs Goliath. In skill they likely where nearly evenly matched. What totaly gave Honor the win was that Summerdale used the rules of the game to his advantage, Honor played a different game.

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Best example is the duel itself. Sommerdale use the classic dualist form. Honor didn't. She used a gunfighters/quickdraw form and shot from the hip. That takes a lot less time to get on target than what Summerdale did.

Also Summerdale didn't do nearly enough basic research on Honor and greatly underestimated her.

Sure was. Everyone expected Honor to lose, no matter how good a shot she was. He was that fast.

I recommend you read the following article. I found an immense source of insight :

How David Beat Goliath

The point of David vs. Goliath isnt merely about size difference, but also what you'd call "establishment wisdom" and how a newcomer can deconstruct a situation and bypass the unwritten expectations (deliberately or not) to get victory from a superior opponent. The superior opponent's party will usually call said use of tactics as "unsporting" or "cheating"; it is a classic psychological challenge meant to enforce normative tactics, where the "Goliath" has all the advantage.

Goliath himself was massive duellist. Came from a tradition of duellists, and always saluted his opponent before starting a fight.

David was a sheperd. When he saw a wolf, he didnt saluted him before shooting at it with his sling. So after stepping in the duelling circle, he ignored the unwritten rule of saluation and just headshot Goliath.

Same with Honor. While she wasnt shabby in term of shooting skill, she was ridiculously outmatched by Summerdale's speed at raising his arm, aiming and firing. Everyone who saw him in action knew that. Hell, think about it: his arm was halfway up before Honor managed to raise her WRIST.

He was just too fast.

So Honor bypassed the problem of speed by NOT raising her arm, acting in a way completely unexpected and what may have been called "unsporting" in certain duelling circles. But like i said, its nothing but a tactic meant to enforce a way of playing that favors the veterans.

The Ellison protocole allowed her multiple shots while firing at the hip. Checkmate.

[The Glyphstone]

Strictly speaking, David vs. Goliath is the oldest incarnation of the phrase 'never bring a knife to a gunfight'. Slings were (and still are) incredibly nasty weapons in the hands of a skilled slinger. Granted, that's just another application of how you can win by subverting expectations; using an ostensibly ranged weapon in a duel where you'd be expected to bring a melee weapon seems foolish, because you'll be overwhelmed in melee if you dont have a weapon of your own. But if you'd be overwhelmed regardless due to simple relative capability no matter how well-armored you are, you might as well use a weapon that'll let you end the fight before it gets to melee.

[HandofShadows]

Sure was. Everyone expected Honor to lose, no matter how good a shot she was. He was that fast.

Not everyone. Her Armsman thought she would win.

[Cikomyr]

Not everyone. Her Armsman thought she would win.

You mean, the one man who did not seem Summerdale in action?

[The Glyphstone]

You mean, the one man who did not seem Summerdale in action?

He was also the only one who'd seen Honor in action, mind you, practicing with chemical-powered firearms - while she didn't have Summervale's raw speed, she had almost supernatural accuracy. He just had faith that her advantage in precision would overcome Summervale's speed; possibly a bit naive, but then, he turned out to be right when she successfully removed speed from the equation, didn't he?

[Cikomyr]

He was also the only one who'd seen Honor in action, mind you, practicing with chemical-powered firearms - while she didn't have Summervale's raw speed, she had almost supernatural accuracy. He just had faith that her advantage in precision would overcome Summervale's speed; possibly a bit naive, but then, he turned out to be right when she successfully removed speed from the equation, didn't he?

Thats the point i am making. At this point of precision skill, more of it did not mattered. The only important thing was how good your initiative roll aiming speed was. Hence why Ramirez was still nervous about Honor's chances when he learned she was a crack shot.

But Honor acted in a way totally unexpected, leveraged her training and advantage. She caught him off guard because she refused to play by the standards..

Just like how the Manties keep manhandling the Peeps by going outside the box, despite the Peeps having the clear tonnage advantage.

Btw, reading Flag in Exile. Peeps are starting to be a bit scary.

[The Glyphstone]

The Peeps do get scary once they finish carving off their dead weight, though it takes a few books. They do replace their hereditary officer-caste baggage with political control baggage, but it's noted even among the Manticorans that the Peeps are actually getting good after all these years of complacent conquering.

Personally, I like to break up the series into chunks, how I imagine it'd be divided if they were ever compiled into larger omnibuses.

-You've finished books 1 through 4, the 'Prelude' arc, starting with the first on-screen sign of Havenite aggression, and ending with Honor's exile to Grayson right when Manticore could use her most. Alternately, this works as the 'Pavel Young' arc, with Young being her first on-screen antagonist and ending with his demise.

- 5 through 8, I just tend to refer to as the 'Trauma Arc' - here's where you will see Honor at her lowest and her darkest.

-9-11 are the 'Haven Arc' - while technically the whole series up to that point involves Haven, this is where they start getting a larger share of the spotlight beyond being antagonists.

12 through 14, and presumably 15 as the capstone, are/will be the Solarian Arc, where the Solarian League becomes far more plot-relevant than it currently is. That's technically a spoiler, but hopefully vague enough as to not give anything substantial away.

[Cikomyr]

Everyone keeps saying its "the Napoleonic War... IN SPACE!!! until there is.. a plot derail"

Also saw points about how thr Haven/Manticorian fleet completely outclassed the Solarian fleet. So i guessed they would probably come to blow. Not sure how dangerous the Solarians are if the Manties are that better than them AND I DONT WANT TO KNOW YET

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, that is definitely something you want to build up to. For now, all you need to know is that they eventually do come to blows.

[Knaight]

Strictly speaking, David vs. Goliath is the oldest incarnation of the phrase 'never bring a knife to a gunfight'. Slings were (and still are) incredibly nasty weapons in the hands of a skilled slinger. Granted, that's just another application of how you can win by subverting expectations; using an ostensibly ranged weapon in a duel where you'd be expected to bring a melee weapon seems foolish, because you'll be overwhelmed in melee if you dont have a weapon of your own. But if you'd be overwhelmed regardless due to simple relative capability no matter how well-armored you are, you might as well use a weapon that'll let you end the fight before it gets to melee.

They're also completely distinct weapons from the sling shot, which is a detail that the author of that article appears not to understand.

[Cikomyr]

They're also completely distinct weapons from the sling shot, which is a detail that the author of that article appears not to understand.

I think its beside the point. David used a ranged weapon to sucker-kill Melee Goliath while he wasn't expecting it.

[Gnoman]

Everyone keeps saying its "the Napoleonic War... IN SPACE!!! until there is.. a plot derail"

Also saw points about how thr Haven/Manticorian fleet completely outclassed the Solarian fleet. So i guessed they would probably come to blow. Not sure how dangerous the Solarians are if the Manties are that better than them AND I DONT WANT TO KNOW YET

All you need to know about the Solarian League right now is that their tech is roughly on par with Manticore's tech as of On Basilisk Station, and their navy is so large that the could crush both the Star Kingdom and the People's Republic with ease.

[russdm]

All you need to know about the Solarian League right now is that their tech is roughly on par with Manticore's tech as of On Basilisk Station, and their navy is so large that the could crush both the Star Kingdom and the People's Republic with ease.

I thought their tech was older than Manticore tech in On Basilisk Station, because one of the Solarian League Navy leaders mentions that the fleet was basically good for scrap metal until they got some serious improvements in their technology.

[Rakaydos]

I thought their tech was older than Manticore tech in On Basilisk Station, because one of the Solarian League Navy leaders mentions that the fleet was basically good for scrap metal until they got some serious improvements in their technology.

I dont recall any solarian leaders commenting on mantiocrian tech in Basailsk Station.

Any time after that, well, yea, Manticorian tech is advancing, solarian tech isnt.

[Douglas]

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I thought their tech was older than Manticore tech in On Basilisk Station, because one of the Solarian League Navy leaders mentions that the fleet was basically good for scrap metal until they got some serious improvements in their technology.

Manticore's own tech, as of OBS, would be good mostly for scrap metal against a latest-novel Manticoran force.

Also, that's a bit more specifically spoilerish than what's been mentioned so far, you might want to spoiler it.

All you need to know about the Solarian League right now is that their tech is roughly on par with Manticore's tech as of On Basilisk Station, and their navy is so large that the could crush both the Star Kingdom and the People's Republic with ease.

At the start of the series, yes.

The Solarian League Navy, if they somehow mobilized the entire thing at once, is measured in thousands of superdreadnoughts. With approximate technological parity, that's enough to utterly crush Haven and Manticore combined several times over.

There is a specific interstellar law, the Eridani Edict, that's mentioned repeatedly throughout the series. In essence, it says "Thou Shalt Not Bombard Planets With Nuke-range Ordnance". Absolutely everyone makes extra double super certain to not violate it, even by accident, because if they do the Solarian League Navy will send whatever level of force it takes to make them cease to exist.

Too bad they missed out on all the war-time tech advancement Manticore and Haven get up to.

[Gnoman]

I thought their tech was older than Manticore tech in On Basilisk Station, because one of the Solarian League Navy leaders mentions that the fleet was basically good for scrap metal until they got some serious improvements in their technology.

Not at all.

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It is explicitly mentioned that Solarian tech transfers to the PRH were starting to bring the People's Navy within spitting distance of Manticore electronically despite the PN's less-capable crew base. Later in the series, when evaluating the Solarian superdreadnoughts captured after the Battle of Spindle, the energy weapons were first rate and the electronics were up to pre-Ghost Rider standards. The fatal flaw was that they were still oriented around missiles as a skirmishing weapon. They not only had no pods or MDMs of their own, they had no conception of how to handle the sort of salvos SD(P)s could put out, how to handle missiles coming in at such ludicrous velocities, or the sheer power that an onboard fusion plant could give to an ECM missile. Against start-of-series Manticoran ships, they'd probably be evenly matched, except the Sollies had 2000 SDs in active service (and another 8000 in reserve, although those were older types) when the Peeps and Manties combined had less than five hundred, many of which were only DNs.

[Cheesegear]

Sure was. Everyone expected Honor to lose, no matter how good a shot she was. He was that fast.

Which means, since the odds are so far stacked against Honor, she's sure to win.

Not everyone. Her Armsman thought she would win.

Is LaFollet ever wrong?

[The Glyphstone]

Which means, since the odds are so far stacked against Honor, she's sure to win.

Yeah, but only after something horrible happens to her (in this case, Paul). She has to be beaten down to the edge before she's allowed her crushing last-ditch victory.

Is LaFollet ever wrong?

Once.