What is the monk good for?

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

What is the Monks purpose what nitche does it fill. Rogue has off damagr skill monkey. Bard similar but a buff machine. So what is a monks sloy in the party? Is he suppose to be the mobile caster killer or just an off damagr dealer with a nice bit of fluff?

[TeslaJr]

A dip for a Tashalatora build. That's about it.

[Eldariel]

Monks are supposed to be a mixture of a frontliner and a skill monkey. Kinda Rogue--, a more mobile Fighter or whatever. Suffice to say, since the things they're supposed to be worse at are bad at their job, Monks manage to be straight-up horrendous.

[Emperor Tippy]

Scouting and assassination, ideally done in conjunction with dips in other classes.

[Theomniadept]

Two levels for the Monk/Wizard/Swiftblade Goku build. Otherwise, Monk into Drunken Master with an adamantine chair/lamppost/flagon/something two-handed. There's the Monk 2/Cleric whatever into Divine Fist (or Sacred Fist or whatever it's called). Other than that, not much. Go pure Monk in a party of all casters for hilarious results.

[Telonius]

Monk is supposed to be the kung-fu guy who can slip in and deal a Stun effect and fight off several enemies at once. Monk is supposed to be guy who can do a bunch of unusual attacks (disarm, trip, grapple) that humanoid enemies aren't typically good at. In particular, he's supposed to be a caster-killer, able to stun, grapple, or otherwise ruin the day of the guy who's flinging fireballs. He's supposed to be able to be set down anywhere with no gear and get along, disarming the guy with the big axe and killing people using only his thumbs.

Unfortunately, given his abilities, he's not actually able to do most of that stuff. At first glance, it looks like - with all of those thematic abilities - he ought to be able to do it. But when you start crunching the numbers, it just doesn't add up.

[heavyfuel]

Two level dip in most martial classes, especially if mundane ones and Druidzillas if you don't mind the CL loss

You almost never want more than 6 levels in Monk, but these 6 first levels can give you some decent abilities.

[Pan151]

As the posters above have said, monks as a single class are not good for anything.

Monk as a dip, however, are really good. A 1-level monk dip lets a druid add an extra full-attack on top of all his natural weapons, a massive boost to AC and a very useful feat like power attack or improved grappling, in exchange for just 1 level delay.

[Urpriest]

Classes don't have roles in 3.5 like they do in 4e. Rather, each class is a collection of resources. Monk can present you with different resources depending on what you're interested in: speed for a speed record or an annoying skirmisher (often on a Mercury Dragon or similarly naturally fast creature), lots of bonus feats (handy for many martial builds, especially shadow pouncers), unarmed damage progression (meaningful if you stack size increases), and a stat to AC (which can be Cha or Int if you take the feats for it). It all depends what you do with it.

[Emperor Tippy]

As the posters above have said, monks as a single class are not good for anything.

Monk as a dip, however, are really good. A 1-level monk dip lets a druid add an extra full-attack on top of all his natural weapons, a massive boost to AC and a very useful feat like power attack or improved grappling, in exchange for just 1 level delay.

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

[heavyfuel]

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

Does the straight monk build involve VoP and Chaos Shuffling every feat? Because if not, I'd really like to see a monk 20 that can kickass better than, say, a Swordsage.

[Extra Anchovies]

A two-level dip into monk gets you three bonus feats, evasion, and +3 to all your poor saves, and it doubles your unarmed damage die. Swap flurry for Decisive Strike (PHB2) because flurry can't be used while armored. Take Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes for the ability to survive in a grapple if need be and because Combat Reflexes is a good feat to have, especially as a bonus feat. The Denying Stance fighting style from UA gives +2 to tumble checks (and just so happens to require that you take Improved Grapple and Combat Reflexes).

Alternately, the Overwhelming Attack fighting style gives +2 to Intimidate at first level and nets you Power Attack as a bonus feat. At second level they get Improved Bull Rush, and at sixth level they get Improved Overrun (meh) and +4 on bull rush attempts against foes they demoralized in the last 10 rounds. A desert half-orc Zhentarim Fighter 9 (with Dungeoncrasher)/Monk 6/CC Lion Totem Barbarian 5 (not necesarily in that order), with Menacing Demeanor, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Never Outnumbered, Intimidating Rage, Imperious Command, and maybe Extra Rage for good measure, could be a pretty great intimidation build. AC doesn't matter when you're demoralizing and bull rushing, so enter rage, toss some intimidation around, and bull rush away at your cowering foes. The bull rushing synergizes very nicely with the speed bonus from Monk if you can stomach being unarmored, too.

[Pan151]

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

If we're talking about moving fast, scouting and skirmishing, a lv10 warlock can move 830 feet/round, while flying, invisible and untrackable, and attack people from 250 feet away with touch attacks. Much better than a straight monk.

[SinsI]

VoP monks make pretty neat cohorts for casters with Leadership. I.e. if a druid buff him with Greater Mighty Wallop, monk will have a decent damage potential.

[Shining Wrath]

Spawning Forum threads. It excels at that.

[Emperor Tippy]

Does the straight monk build involve VoP and Chaos Shuffling every feat? Because if not, I'd really like to see a monk 20 that can kickass better than, say, a Swordsage.

Not necessarily, and I never said that it could kick ass better than a Swordsage. I said that it can be a better scout, skirmisher, and assassin.

Kicking ass better than a straight Swordsage is the province of Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 11/ Factotum 8 (if you want majority Monk levels). Otherwise Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 1 to replace 4 of those Monk levels. That will destroy a Swordsage in any ass-kicking challenge.

[OldTrees1]

Again, straight class Monk can be a phenomenally good scout and assassin. With some dipping it can also be the basis for the best skirmisher build in the game.

I do not doubt you. Would you please expand on this?

Edit: I see you mentioned Invisible Fist, Martial Monk and Decisive Strike. Is there more?

[heavyfuel]

Not necessarily, and I never said that it could kick ass better than a Swordsage. I said that it can be a better scout, skirmisher, and assassin.

Kicking ass better than a straight Swordsage is the province of Rogue 1/ Invisible Fist Decisive Strike Martial Monk 11/ Factotum 8 (if you want majority Monk levels). Otherwise Swashbuckler 3/ Swordsage 1 to replace 4 of those Monk levels. That will destroy a Swordsage in any ass-kicking challenge.

You misunderstand. I meant kickass not in the PVP sense, but in the scout skirmisher assassin sense.

[Gorr_the_Gastly]

So he is suppose to be the speedy guy who getd in delivers a stun or combat maneuver and screw up a guys day who slings spells as well as be able to fight out numbered odds is that basically it?

[Extra Anchovies]

So he is suppose to be the speedy guy who getd in delivers a stun or combat maneuver and screw up a guys day who slings spells as well as be able to fight out numbered odds is that basically it?

That's what the monk is supposed to be, yes. It fails in the attempt, but it's supposed to be that. Giving them good BAB, ways to move+full attack, and the ability to add Wisdom modifier to more stuff would help balance them. This post elaborates on these suggested fixes, and is where I get them from.

[Snowbluff]

Invisible fist is handy sometimes.

Martial Monk only applies to the original fighter feat list.

Decisive Blow is good for archers.

Two levels for the Monk/Wizard/Swiftblade Goku build.

Oh, yuck. How can you taint my favorite class with the worst class? What is your major malfunction?

[jiriku]

I do not doubt you. Would you please expand on this?

Edit: I see you mentioned Invisible Fist, Martial Monk and Decisive Strike. Is there more?

I can see where he's headed with it. Factotum 8 lets you create multiple standard actions for yourself, which means multiple decisive strikes. Rogue 1 gets you sneak attack, which probably means Staggering Strike. Invisible Fist monk can turn invisible, striking at +2 on all attacks vs flat-footed AC, dealing double damage, staggering and potentially stunning the opponent (causing him to drop anything held). Martial monk has solid base attack and can likely disarm if the stun fails and it's really desirable to do so. This is the recipe for really ruining someone's day over the course of 1-2 rounds. With swashbuckler, you'll be adding Int to damage twice on each hit during decisive strike, and a strategically placed level of swordsage can provide tactical teleportation, extra stealth, and any number of other goodies.

[Rubik]

Does the straight monk build involve VoP and Chaos Shuffling every feat? Because if not, I'd really like to see a monk 20 that can kickass better than, say, a Swordsage.

Ahem. Or close enough to monk 20, anyway. Note that I only dipped for more feats.

It's still better as a Tashalatora build, but whatevs.

[heavyfuel]

Invisible fist is handy sometimes.

Martial Monk only applies to the original fighter feat list.

Decisive Blow is good for archers.

Flurry of Blows apply only to unarmed strikes and monk weapons. How is your archer using it?

Also, Martial Monk only lets you select the feats, not use them. Not without meeting the prerequisites anyway.

A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them

Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat.

[Spore]

Monk is the best class for making fellow players feel bad that they needed to optimize a crap ton out of their T1 casters while a bottom T5 class still looks more badass than they do. Bonus points for taking no damage every time a creature with Death Throes explodes almost killing the caster while you stand in the fire evading it.

[Rubik]

Flurry of Blows apply only to unarmed strikes and monk weapons. How is your archer using it?

Also, Martial Monk only lets you select the feats, not use them. Not without meeting the prerequisites anyway.

You realize that "normal" monks can still use the feats they select from their list, even if they don't otherwise qualify, yes? Which means that martial monk can likewise do so.

[heavyfuel]

You realize that "normal" monks can still use the feats they select from their list, even if they don't otherwise qualify, yes? Which means that martial monk can likewise do so.

You might want to post this to Dysfunctional Rules thread, be no they don't according to the rules. Much like the Martial Monk, they can only select them, not use (without prereqs)

At 1st level, a monk may select either Improved Grapple or Stunning Fist as a bonus feat. At 2nd level, she may select either Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat. At 6th level, she may select either Improved Disarm or Improved Trip as a bonus feat. A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.

[Rubik]

You might want to post this to Dysfunctional Rules thread, be no they don't according to the rules. Much like the Martial Monk, they can only select them, not use (without prereqs)

A monk character's "monster entry" would have those feats marked with a ^B, and I believe the following text applies:

"Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript ^B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites."

[heavyfuel]

A monk character's "monster entry" would have those feats marked with a ^B, and I believe the following text applies:

"Feats
The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript ^B. Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites."

By this logic the Fighter would a superscript ^B to his bonus feats as well and if he lost a prerequisite, he'd still be able to use it. He does gain Bonus Feats, by this name.

While I very much agree that the Monk's RAI is that he can use bonus feats regardless, the RAW is pretty clear that he can only select it, with no mention of weather or not he can use it.

[Rubik]

By this logic the Fighter would a superscript ^B to his bonus feats as well and if he lost a prerequisite, he'd still be able to use it. He does gain Bonus Feats, by this name.

While I very much agree that the Monk's RAI is that he can use bonus feats regardless, the RAW is pretty clear that he can only select it, with no mention of weather or not he can use it.

Except the fighter explicitly must qualify for its feats, whereas a monk explicitly doesn't.