If it has stats... (Challenge to the playground)

[Kalaska'Agathas]

For a non-serious attempt, I throw in a Kender Rogue......and wait

The old fastball special, I like it.

[animewatcha]

One of the builds that 'worked' had to have made use of some kind of wizard 20 shenanigans. So therefore, Kender wizard 20. The pest that just can't die.

[Melcar]

Show me the mon... ster!!!

[Segev]

A fully-formed epic pseudonatural Pun-Pun materializes at an already arbitrarily-high point in his looping strategy with the sole purpose of finding and destroying this creature. Because it's a(n epic) pseudonatural creature springing forth fully-formed from the Far Realms, there is no "before" state to destroy in which it was a mere mortal kobold. Going back "far enough" can only put you before the instant it started to exist. It starts to exist with all of the Pun-Pun defenses (including, obviously, those associated with being an epic pseudonatural creature), and whatever abilities can be retro-actively thought of as being necessary (including constantly-active Foresight and every infinite-action/time-stop power in the game, and any ability to time-travel such as Teleport Through Time at will).

[Heliomance]

A fully-formed epic pseudonatural Pun-Pun materializes at an already arbitrarily-high point in his looping strategy with the sole purpose of finding and destroying this creature. Because it's a(n epic) pseudonatural creature springing forth fully-formed from the Far Realms, there is no "before" state to destroy in which it was a mere mortal kobold. Going back "far enough" can only put you before the instant it started to exist. It starts to exist with all of the Pun-Pun defenses (including, obviously, those associated with being an epic pseudonatural creature), and whatever abilities can be retro-actively thought of as being necessary (including constantly-active Foresight and every infinite-action/time-stop power in the game, and any ability to time-travel such as Teleport Through Time at will).

Otherwise known as "Nuh-uh, I win!"

[Melcar]

I want to throw in the obvious:

Tippy's wizard enters the stage... or if thats too easy! ... Tippy's commoner enters...

[Bad Wolf]

Fuse with an Aleax of yourself, and just keep on hitting it with a pillow until it dies.

[Segev]

Otherwise known as "Nuh-uh, I win!"

Hey, if it wins, it tells us the mystery monster is beatable in theory. If this is all that can beat it, then it also tells us it is practically not beatable. This is, after all, a more elaborate way of saying, "Rocks fall; you die."

If it loses, then how it loses should be rather instructive.

[animewatcha]

In short, just post the stats of the thing already.

[Hecuba]

If I'm recalling correctly, it doesn't move. If we can get to the appropriate plane, have we seem any reason we can't just shove if in a bag of holding and throw the bag into a portable hole?

[Gemini476]

If I'm recalling correctly, it doesn't move. If we can get to the appropriate plane, have we seem any reason we can't just shove if in a bag of holding and throw the bag into a portable hole?

Grappling checks.

But then again, hitting the ground is something like AC 10 isn't it?

[Firest Kathon]

Somebody27else: I'm using the hostile rules from the diplomacy skill, so the Ice Assassin attacks your character. I don't know Boccob's stats though - does he have an ability that prevents his attitude shifting to hostile?

Just throwing this out here: Diplomacy works only against NPCs. While I think that noone would disagree that an Ice Assasin is an NPC for this purpose, I think it could be argued that the Shism (I think that's what it was) of Jeremy is a PC, as it would be fully controlled by the player (I think), so it would not turn hostile. Not sure if it changes anything¹, but it popped into my head this morning and I wanted to post this.

You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check

¹ I've stopped understanding the actual builds several pages ago, just looking on for the pure carnage.

[Hecuba]

Grappling checks.

But then again, hitting the ground is something like AC 10 isn't it?

Sadly, that just pulls it into the astral: we would need Bag into Hole (which causes the contents to be irrevocably lost) rather than Hole into Bag.

Still, if we have absolutely no indication that it has moved, it might be strength and/or Dex --.

Alternately, does anyone know of a way to remove a fort save from a spell (or, alternately, make the Save DC arbitrarily high): if so, using an Omnificier base to facilitate an infinite Truename check for Unname (cast as a Supernatural spell) should work. The Supernatural spell makes it SR no, which would also bypass the construct Necromancy immunity. The only outstanding issue I see for the method is the pesky fort save.

[1pwny]

Hey, if it wins, it tells us the mystery monster is beatable in theory. If this is all that can beat it, then it also tells us it is practically not beatable. This is, after all, a more elaborate way of saying, "Rocks fall; you die."

If it loses, then how it loses should be rather instructive.

I ended up setting a legit Ice Assassin of Boccob on it. I mean, my character died too, but still. And yet, supposedly the Ice Assassin of Boccob failed. I mean, really! Its Boccob! Or at least an Ice Assassin of him!

Hm....

[Belial_the_Leveler]

It should be noted that altering a creature's attitude via diplomacy does not supercede effects that control that creature. For example, whether a dominated creature is hostile or friendly is irrelevant - being dominated, it's under the control of the caster. Ditto with things like summoned or called creatures or ice assassin that have to obey the caster's orders whether they want to or not. Otherwise, no caster could dominate enemies in the first place.



As for the portable hole + bag of holding trick, if the creature would fit in the hole in the first place, the answer is easy. All it needs is these simple steps;

1) Time Stop.
2) Put a metal ring on the floor around creature's feet.
3) Unfold portable hole on metal ring.
4) Cast quickened Levitate on metal ring. It carries the now opened hole upwards as it ascends, thus the creature passes through the opening.
5) Ready action to drop bag of holding as soon as timestop ends.
6) Just in case you're interrupted, celerity to drop the bag of holding against the interrupt.

See, while creatures might be invulnerable to effects cast upon them during time stop, the same doesn't apply to items, or area effects with enough duration that would last longer than the timestop.




The above trick will get rid of anyone that will fit in a portable hole with no save at the cost of 30.000 gp (or none, if you wished the hole and bag into existence with supernatural wishes). It works even against immortals, deities, and beings with unbeatable regeneration because it doesn't kill them; it causes them to be forever lost instead.

[Vhaidara]

Somebody27else: I'm using the hostile rules from the diplomacy skill

Actually, I'm curious about what you mean by this. There are only rules for affecting a creature's attitude towards the user of Diplomacy. The only way that Diplomacy could turn something hostile towards a submitted character would be by forcing the character to make a diplomacy check against the thing becoming hostile and failing horribly.

You can make them Fanatical towards the Boss. However, assuming they start at indifferent (since they don't know about the Boss), it's a DC 90, before modifiers for things like not communicating with them and reduction of time to one round.
Further, Fanatic is actually blocked by Mind Blank.

Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect for purposes of immunity, save bonuses, or being detected by the Sense Motive skill. Since it is nonmagical, it can’t be dispelled; however, any effect that suppresses or counters mind-affecting effects will affect it normally.

[Hecuba]

As for the portable hole + bag of holding trick, if the creature would fit in the hole in the first place, the answer is easy. All it needs is these simple steps;

1) Time Stop.

Unfortunately, time stop won't work here.

[Gemini476]

Actually, I'm curious about what you mean by this. There are only rules for affecting a creature's attitude towards the user of Diplomacy.

Well, and the Blood Moon Sign that the Hulks of Zoretha have. (From Elder Evils.)

That's a bit of an outlier, though, and just changes the initial attitude of creatures. For example, during the later stages of the Sign then someone who might normally have been Indifferent would be Hostile instead.

This is presumably for the first time you meet creatures, I think? The entire Sign is a bit dysfunctional, not least because of the way NPC attitudes are handled in 3.5.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Unfortunately, time stop won't work here.

You just need 3-4 actions without the bad guy being able to interrupt. Timestop was just an example. Shapechanging into a Chronotyryn for dual actions also works, as does abusing celerity several times per round or any infinite action loop.


The main point is that the creature be forever removed without being killed with no save allowed.

[rockdeworld]

Hello again everyone. As I mentioned in a pm, I've been responding slowly because life is slamming me with stuff. But this post should catch me up.

rweird: I'm not sure what you mean by "undermined" in the phrase "make it so my past cannot be undermined"
re: contingent spells as magic items: Aha, thanks for educating me. Could you explain also how wish-crafting works? I've never heard of that.
Your character would learn the Ice Assassin spell fails as soon as he attempted to cast it.
1) Ice assassin of yourself appears, but is hostile to you.
2) Once Timeless Body wears off, your character takes (ability loss)/(damage)

Belial_the_Leveler: Your character never gets to write "how I killed it" if he/she fails to kill it, so your character doesn't get that message.
On a side note, I like your idea of classic challenges. Maybe we could start another "Has stats" thread that acts as a forum game: poster A chooses a CR 20 creature, posters B-Z+ try to kill it with an ECL 20 character before it attacks them in 5 rounds. Then the person who killed it chooses a CR 20 creature, and repeat. It would probably need some strict rules to be fair though.
Portable hole+bag of holding: The creature is lost (but not destroyed, as you said), so your character takes (ability loss)/(damage)/(death) at the end of 5 rounds.

Kalaska'Agathas's psion minus schism: Yes, the fission becomes hostile towards your character.
LOL. "Made of steampunk" is a joke. Let's say it looks like this minus the drill.

Jormengand's staff of instant death: Correct, it takes no damage from the staff. And I remembered that constructs are immune to non-lethal damage, so even Mystia's orbs of damage would've failed =(

So I can conclude that the entity time travels?

None of your characters has seen/sensed anything that would indicate the entity time travels.

Anthrowhale's illithid savant 5: You wishaport to the creature and it becomes corporeal, but with no strength it stops moving.

As a free action, the Illithid savant mimics the thing's form, acquiring it's impending doom ability,

This step fails. Your character failed to evade the doom effect and takes (ability loss)/(damage)/(death) in a few rounds. Same for the following spawns.

Can I add that to my sig?

Absolutely. I grabbed it from your sig because it perfectly summed up my reaction
Awaken Construct is > 6th level spell so can't be contingencied, unless you're using the Craft feat. But then I don't know how Wish would duplicate that.

In addition to what Heliomance quoted, I should point out that there was another entry in her original post that I assumed was the main challenger. In every other entry with more than one challenger, everyone except the challenger survived unless they fit into specific categories (of which I named one), then they died too. If each person individually was a challenger, the response might be different, for example:
Heliomance's random Sigilian: takes (ability loss)/(damage) 5 rounds after the present, so let's say when he saw it.
How it's in Sigil: mystery (but as you said, creatures with divine rank are not allowed in Sigil)

kardar233: Your character loses all abilities, including from class levels. So all (Ex)/(Su)/(Sp)/(Na).
TBoS w/ Dweomer of Transference: Loses Salient Special Abilities and dies at the end of 5 rounds.
On a side note: It makes me a bit sad that the TBoS is such a magnificent display of defensive optimization, whereas I made stuff up.

Somebody27else's people:
random Sigilian PC: dies in 5 rounds
Sigilian flash mob: one of them becomes the target of the rest's hostility. That one dies in 5 rounds.
Two Sigilians: Can't hit it. One of them dies in 5 rounds.
Wise old monk: No response. Dies in 5 rounds.
Wizard: What exactly do Aleaxes do in your games, to give you the idea that they're not hostile? In any case it becomes hostile toward the wizards and starts attacking him.

georgie_leech: There is probably not such an ability

Melcar: Such a magic item would at the least be an epic magic item, and therefore outside the ability of a Wish spell.
When you can see it depends on your starting location and movement speed. Some entries have been starting right next to it, which is fine.
Tippy's wizard: You mean Cindy? She dies. You mean Pun-Pun created from Epic Spellcasting? He dies in the past.

Segev: The Lady of Pain is not ECL 20 by any stretch of the imagination... but to answer your question I'd say the Lady wins, because. Cheater.
Fully-formed Pun-pun: well, it has 5 rounds, which are probably more than enough... What did you have in mind?
Also I'd like to point out that Pun-pun is just one character.

Alihandros's kender: he pricks his finger on a door-lock trap... wait, what?

Bad Wolf's Fused creature: Before Fusion is used the Aleax becomes hostile towards your character and refuses to fuse. 5 rounds later your character (if still alive) takes (ability loss)/(damage).

In short, just post the stats of the thing already.

Make me (by finding creative ways to die, I mean)

Firest Kathon: Thanks for the check. The hostility is not a result of a diplomacy check. Those rules are still useful though. The main problem with applying "NPCs only" is that challengers using multiple characters that would normally be PCs still activate that part of the ability (i.e. everyone except the target becomes hostile towards the target). What happens after that is mostly up to the person entering the build, but it means at least that those characters won't work together and are no longer considered "allies".

Keledrath: What I mean is that I'm using the hostile/unfriendly/neutral/friendly/helpful spectrum, and not the rules of Diplomacy in particular.

There's at least 2 hints in this post over and beyond the responses to characters. You can tell they're hints because they're not next to a name.

[kardar233]

Absolutely. I grabbed it from your sig because it perfectly summed up my reaction
Awaken Construct is > 6th level spell so can't be contingencied, unless you're using the Craft feat. But then I don't know how Wish would duplicate that.

You use Wish to create a magic item with the safe option "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item" to create a Craft Contingent Awaken Construct on the Golem. That should plug that hole.

Does the Creature successfully kill him then?

kardar233: Your character loses all abilities, including from class levels. So all (Ex)/(Su)/(Sp)/(Na).
TBoS w/ Dweomer of Transference: Loses Salient Special Abilities and dies at the end of 5 rounds.
On a side note: It makes me a bit sad that the TBoS is such a magnificent display of defensive optimization, whereas I made stuff up.

Yeah, the Twice Betrayer is a beautiful piece of work. Have you looked at Cruiser1's Priya the Prismatic Priestess?

[Heliomance]

Hrm. A blind Sigilian walks past the creature without realising it's there.

[Melcar]

Melcar: Such a magic item would at the least be an epic magic item, and therefore outside the ability of a Wish spell.
When you can see it depends on your starting location and movement speed. Some entries have been starting right next to it, which is fine.
Tippy's wizard: You mean Cindy? She dies. You mean Pun-Pun created from Epic Spellcasting? He dies in the past.

Thanks for your reply...

In terms of what wish can do it can safely create magic items

Wish

The specific rule says: "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item."

By raw no limit is mentioned, and therefor one must assume that everything goes. It would cost sooo many Exp, but I'm using the supernatural spell ability of the Dweomerkeeper so its free.

[Sith_Happens]

I forget, has Jersey managed to successfully establish the Mad Minute yet? If so, he uses his infinite standard actions to do the following:

1. Get to the creature's location.

2. Place a Bag of Holding at its feet.

3. Create a large enough platform to open the Portable Hole on.

4. Open the Portable Hole on the platform.

5. Turn the platform upside down and position it over the creature.

6. Drop the platform, causing the creature and then the Bag to enter the Hole.

7. GTFO just before the Bag enters the Hole, which is definitely possible because Synchronicity creates special readied actions and readied actions can be taken at any time whatsoever.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Kalaska'Agathas's psion minus schism: Yes, the fission becomes hostile towards your character.
LOL. "Made of steampunk" is a joke. Let's say it looks like this minus the drill.

I'm really hoping I find a way to kill this thing - I want to see how it's effecting a Fission during the same turn that it's manifested. With that in mind, assuming Jersey takes his action before his Fission, does his employment of any of the Greater Reality Benders un-hostile his Fission (and if so, does it then work on his thralls)?

I was asking about what "made of steampunk" looks like in an attempt to find an amusing diversion while real life was keeping you from the thread!

I forget, has Jersey managed to successfully establish the Mad Minute yet? If so, he uses his infinite standard actions to do the following:

1. Get to the creature's location.

2. Place a Bag of Holding at its feet.

3. Create a large enough platform to open the Portable Hole on.

4. Open the Portable Hole on the platform.

5. Turn the platform upside down and position it over the creature.

6. Drop the platform, causing the creature and then the Bag to enter the Hole.

7. GTFO just before the Bag enters the Hole, which is definitely possible because Synchronicity creates special readied actions and readied actions can be taken at any time whatsoever.

Doesn't look like Jersey's established the loop yet (still waiting to see what happens when we apply GRBs to allies-turned-hostile) but even if he did, this would run afoul of:

Portable hole+bag of holding: The creature is lost (but not destroyed, as you said), so your character takes (ability loss)/(damage)/(death) at the end of 5 rounds.

I'm hoping that we can get the Mad Minute going, though, then we can experiment with all sorts of different spells/powers to see what sticks.

[Sith_Happens]

Doesn't look like Jersey's established the loop yet (still waiting to see what happens when we apply GRBs to allies-turned-hostile) but even if he did, this would run afoul of:

I call that a draw.

I'm hoping that we can get the Mad Minute going, though, then we can experiment with all sorts of different spells/powers to see what sticks.

Is there a way to get the Causal Disregard for the Action Economy going without Dominant Ideal? Possibly using the Meditation Hustle or similar?

[rweird]

Wish-crafting was explained above by several other people (Melcar gave a good concise explanation).

Undermined: As people die in the past in this challenge, I mean making a character without a past to die during (I proposed this when I though Doomsday Protocol was an actual ability it had).

The ice assassin of me still would follow my commands without question (being hostile means it wants bad things to happen to me, but being an Ice Assassin of me, its personality is twisted by the overwhelming desire to kill me, but it still will follow my orders, although it may try to misinterpreted them)? Can the Ice Assassin of me make an Ice Assassin of [the entity]? Does the Ice Assassin die too?

Second entry: A mind bender with mindsight walks past the entity. (this should give it knowledge of its type and Int score)

[rockdeworld]

You use Wish to create a magic item with the safe option "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item" to create a Craft Contingent Awaken Construct on the Golem. That should plug that hole.

Ah, of course. I should've realized.
The illithid: There's still a few problems as far as I understand them. 1. Wish doesn't create constructs as a safe wish. But your build is fairly open so we can assume you Gate one in, unless there's some reason you don't want to. 2. True Mind Switch fails because Golems are immune to magic (and psionics because of PMT). 3. (sortof) Where is Teleport through Time being used? As I understand it, you're trying to mind switch with a flesh golem for its immunities.

Heliomance's blind Sigilian: same result; (ability loss)/(damage)

Melcar: The ELH defines the lower limit on epic magic items, and Wish doesn't create epic magic items (only normal magic items).
Casting a (Su) wish does allow you to get out of paying the XP for it though.

Kalaska'Agathas: Hm, are there any safe uses of Reality Revision that change creatures' attitude? If so that might work.
And sorry - I haven't looked at this thread all the past week.

rweird: Ah, that def. makes sense.

How would my attempt go differently if I came from the future via Teleport Through Time or from the Far Realms or something to make it so my past cannot be undermined without the intent to kill this creature, or knowledge of it when I travel hence?

Teleport through Time from the future assumes your character has a future, so that's not going to work. I'm not familiar with how coming from the Far Realm makes your past immutable - can someone explain that to me? Assuming that's the case though (specifically, it would have to mean that for all intents and purposes you have no past before emerging from the Far Realm), eg. as an illithid, and then you emerge without intent to kill this creature or knowledge of it, then what would you do? If nothing, your character takes (ability loss)/(damage) in 5 rounds.
Yes, an ice assassin would still follow your commands without question. It fails to create an IA of the creature. Timeless body lasts only 1 round, so it doesn't help you survive past 5 rounds if your contingency activates immediately. Then your character would die before seeing if the IA lives or dies. Assuming you cast TB in the last round, you would survive 1 round longer and see the IA (and any IAs it creates) also take (ability loss)/(damage)/(death).

[Heliomance]

Teleport through Time from the future assumes your character has a future, so that's not going to work. I'm not familiar with how coming from the Far Realm makes your past immutable - can someone explain that to me? Assuming that's the case though (specifically, it would have to mean that for all intents and purposes you have no past before emerging from the Far Realm), eg. as an illithid, and then you emerge without intent to kill this creature or knowledge of it, then what would you do? If nothing, your character takes (ability loss)/(damage) in 5 rounds.

Wait, what? You emerge from the Far Realms without knowledge of or intent to kill this creature, and die anyway?

I enter, one by one, as separate challengers, every animate being in every plane in the multiverse. They have no knowledge of the creature if they wouldn't otherwise, and they are not intending to kill it unless they have an existing motive, they are just going about their daily business. But they are being entered into the challenge.

[Hecuba]

2. True Mind Switch fails because Golems are immune to magic (and psionics because of PMT). 3. (sortof) Where is Teleport through Time being used? As I understand it, you're trying to mind switch with a flesh golem for its immunities.

I already tried throwing golem immunities at it: didn't seem to matter.
If you need to true mind switch into a body with said immunities, however, I suggest using non-magical persuasion methods to convince a half-golem to manifest True Mind Switch on you (likely using a magic item). Half-golems are not mindless and because they are using the power on you it sidesteps the immunity issue.

If you have your pick of half-golems, you can also decide whether or not you want one that is a construct (and thus chose your new body based on whether or not the current inhabitant failed their will save when the limb was attached).

Alternately, you can just slap the limb on yourself: it is, however, technically an LA -- template after the 3.5 conversion (despite having a "Half-golem characters" section).