Dreamscarred Press Announces: Path of War Expanded

[Prime32]

I think it's fine. It's more or less the same as the organizations from 3.5 and organizations scaled as you leveled up. Yet, you hardly ever see them around, since it's from an obscure source.

Nah, affiliations were in a few places, and the Knowledge Affiliation from Complete Champion at least is pretty well known for its ability that lets you turn off enemies' powers. The issue is most of their requirements are things like "attend meetings at HQ every week" or "perform a lengthy quest for your superiors". Basically you can't use them unless the DM writes a campaign centred around them. If the game was initiated by the DM then he almost certainly has a pre-existing concept that it will be hard to integrate them into, but the affiliation mechanics aren't interesting enough that many players would specifically ask for a game that uses them.

EDIT: There's also the issue that few affiliations will benefit all members of the party equally, but giving each party member a different affiliation increases the difficulty in working everything into the story, and can make it hard to justify why the PCs are even working together.

[Rickshaw]

I not convinced that there will be very many tables that have a ton of martial classes with opposing alignments and traditions though, so I don't really see a problem with them.

[squiggit]

Frankly, the benefits for most Traditions are minor enough that I don't think it's a huge deal.

Defender's flat +2 to Fort and Scarlet Sentinel's +2 to Will (with another +4 vs compulsion of another type on to) both stand out pretty heavily as awesome, but the rest tend to be super niche... though with the types of enemies you see in most APs, Empyreal's almost becomes a flat+2 to saves against spells.

[Shinken]

Nah, affiliations were in a few places, and the Knowledge Affiliation from Complete Champion at least is pretty well known for its ability that lets you turn off enemies' powers. The issue is most of their requirements are things like "attend meetings at HQ every week" or "perform a lengthy quest for your superiors". Basically you can't use them unless the DM writes a campaign centred around them. If the game was initiated by the DM then he almost certainly has a pre-existing concept that it will be hard to integrate them into, but the affiliation mechanics aren't interesting enough that many players would specifically ask for a game that uses them.

EDIT: There's also the issue that few affiliations will benefit all members of the party equally, but giving each party member a different affiliation increases the difficulty in working everything into the story, and can make it hard to justify why the PCs are even working together.

I wasn't arguing that they don't get used in CharOp forums, sorry. I was arguing I don't see them used in actual game tables. Also, you can very much use them without writing a campaign around them - you just don't get a sky high affiliation score.

[DarkSonic1337]

Are there still plans to have new items in PoW2? I remember talk of a new weapon enhancement for two weapon fighters that produced an identical copy of whatever weapon had the enhancement. I'm also curious if the maneuver granting items will make a return.

[Novawurmson]

Hello, everybody!

With the harbinger moving forward towards pdf release, it’s high time to roll out the zealot’s two archetypes.

The awakened champion gives the zealot true manifesting to mold himself and his allies with, while the discordant crusader must decide righteousness and wickedness for himself each day as he masters the ways of the Black Seraph and the Silver Crane.

A few points to ponder:

-Do these archetypes feel like a good trade? Would you ever consider taking each of them? Would you ever consider not taking each of them?

-Both archetypes are (intentionally) a little light on fluff. Would you like to see more direction on how they could fit into a game world, or do you prefer having more room to define it yourself?

-For the awakened champion, do you see real reasons to play a zealot of the various missions? Are there any that stand out as objectively more powerful or less useful?

-For the discordant champion, do you have any concerns about the flavor or alignment implications?

Of course, all feedback and playtesting is useful and appreciated, but if you’re not sure what to say and can answer a question or two, that’d be swell.

[Fax Celestis]

Astral construct is so good, I don't see why anyone would take a non-creation awakened champion.

Moral Ambiguity as a SU ability seems weird. If I use an EX Evil ability within an AMF, suddenly it starts mattering to the universe what I'm doing?

[deuxhero]

I don't think either of the abilities lost for Awakened Champion is that painful in exchange for manifesting, but I don't think much of Psychic Strike either and that's what's lost by Gifted Blade so that doesn't matter.

Giving Zealot level -2 manifesting at level 3 when you replace a 4th level is a bit odd

Having to spend resources to get Zealous Fury on a Zealot seems weird. Not unbalanced or anything, just weird. Would be less weird if it wasn't the only new conviction open to them.

Speaking of Zealous Fury, does it reduce the penalty on doubling up via a Fortuitous (ACG) weapon?

[Sayt]

The Opening Paragraph of Double minded states: "blending the paths of the Black Crane and Silver Crane to their own designs." That should, I think, be Black Seraph?

[Novawurmson]

Astral construct is so good, I don't see why anyone would take a non-creation awakened champion.

Well, it's also a first level power, so a zealot of any mission can get it at 7th level and beyond. It's also not as directly relevant to the zealot as, say, inevitable strike - a round spend manifesting astral construct is a round not keeping your zeal buff active on your allies. You can try to minion-mance with the +2 to manifester level trait, but you're still going to be way behind what a shaper psion or wilder of the same level could do. Of course, that doesn't factor in the non-combat value of summoning a minion ("scouting" for traps and such). I was honestly a little more concerned about metamorphosis.

Moral Ambiguity as a SU ability seems weird. If I use an EX Evil ability within an AMF, suddenly it starts mattering to the universe what I'm doing?

What happens in an AMF stays in an AMF . Changed.

Giving Zealot level -2 manifesting at level 3 when you replace a 4th level is a bit odd

Ugh. The abilities the zealot gains at 3rd level just aren't the abilities that were anywhere near the power of manifesting (not that even martyrdom is at that level, as you point out).

Having to spend resources to get Zealous Fury on a Zealot seems weird. Not unbalanced or anything, just weird. Would be less weird if it wasn't the only new conviction open to them.

Hrm. I'll consider giving it to them baseline or adding more unique convictions.

Speaking of Zealous Fury, does it reduce the penalty on doubling up via a Fortuitous (ACG) weapon?

I'd ask on the DSP forums as I'm not the designer of the power or the special property, but RAW says no, I think. Zealous Fury says "The penalty on your additional attacks for having a high base attack bonus..."; fortuitous doesn't give you extra attacks for having a high base attack bonus - it gives you the same extra attack whether you have a BAB of +0 or +20.

[Fax Celestis]

Well, it's also a first level power, so a zealot of any mission can get it at 7th level and beyond. It's also not as directly relevant to the zealot as, say, inevitable strike - a round spend manifesting astral construct is a round not keeping your zeal buff active on your allies. You can try to minion-mance with the +2 to manifester level trait, but you're still going to be way behind what a shaper psion or wilder of the same level could do. Of course, that doesn't factor in the non-combat value of summoning a minion ("scouting" for traps and such). I was honestly a little more concerned about metamorphosis.

Enh, metamorphosis only shifts the source of polymorph buff from the party caster to the awakened champion. Astral construct, on the other hand, can be a prebuff flanking buddy, scout, and more. It's practically the same as giving a creation awakened champion an animal companion that you can change the abilities of periodically.

Honestly I would much rather see the awakened champion pull abilities from other sources rather than just plain manifesting. Creation-focus awakened champions could get mini-aegis-astral-suits, for instance, while destruction-focus could get souldrinker vitalist powers.

[Snowbluff]

Awakened Blade needs more options.

[Novawurmson]

The Opening Paragraph of Double minded states: "blending the paths of the Black Crane and Silver Crane to their own designs." That should, I think, be Black Seraph?

::facepalm:: Yes, yes it should. Thank you.

Enh, metamorphosis only shifts the source of polymorph buff from the party caster to the awakened champion. Astral construct, on the other hand, can be a prebuff flanking buddy, scout, and more. It's practically the same as giving a creation awakened champion an animal companion that you can change the abilities of periodically.

I think we can both agree that astral construct is objectively the best power 1st level power of those listed (and even a contender for the best 1st level power in the game). My bigger question: Is the power of astral construct at 4th level so great that you would never consider playing an awakened champion of any other mission?

Honestly I would much rather see the awakened champion pull abilities from other sources rather than just plain manifesting. Creation-focus awakened champions could get mini-aegis-astral-suits, for instance, while destruction-focus could get souldrinker vitalist powers.

I'm trying to keep the archetype as simple as possible - a sprawling archetype with 5 different subsystems sounds
cool, but would be difficult to balance and more importantly, would lack focus. I could see doing 5 separate mission-focused archetypes at a later point with a concept like that, but not one archetype that also added manifesting.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, no, astral-suitery was in lieu of manifesting.

The astral construct thing is basically a ranger AC: your ML is Class -3, just like a ranger's druid level is Class -3. Sure, you have to spend PP to get it, but unlike the ranger AC, you can change its abilities. It provides flanking, mobility, transportation, scouting, and a variety of other minor benefits. And similar to a ranger taking Boon Companion or similar, you can take Advanced Constructs for additional menu options and abilities. It is a powerful enough ability that you can build your entire character around it, and basically turn your awakened champion into a mini-summoner, except instead of 9th level spells, you get combat features. I don't know if that's too powerful for you, but it is worth looking into.

[Novawurmson]

Oh, no, astral-suitery was in lieu of manifesting.

The astral construct thing is basically a ranger AC: your ML is Class -3, just like a ranger's druid level is Class -3. Sure, you have to spend PP to get it, but unlike the ranger AC, you can change its abilities. It provides flanking, mobility, transportation, scouting, and a variety of other minor benefits. And similar to a ranger taking Boon Companion or similar, you can take Advanced Constructs for additional menu options and abilities. It is a powerful enough ability that you can build your entire character around it, and basically turn your awakened champion into a mini-summoner, except instead of 9th level spells, you get combat features. I don't know if that's too powerful for you, but it is worth looking into.

There's actually a dread archetype (and an aegis archetype as well) that does something similar, though not quite as well. I think I'd really like an extremely in-depth Hunter archetype to do it properly.

[Togath]

Trying to decide on feats for my Zweihander Sentinal/Bushi Warder(with a veiled moon tradition)... Any advice?
Starting at 3rd level, and my race gets endurance and toughness and bonus feats.

It's a duo campaign, with the other guy playing a rogue, so I don't have to worry as much about acting as a tank(since there's only two targets an enemy could go for regardless).

So far I'm thinking tactical rush and.. Something. Power Attack perhaps?

[Novawurmson]

Power Attack is pretty much a must for two-handed fighting (or really all forms of melee combat, especially if you have full BAB). You can't go wrong with it.

Extra Readied Maneuver would probably be my go-to for a warder; there's just so much having that extra maneuver can do for you.

Alternatively, you could go for Martial Power for a little more tankiness in combat. The fact that it counts as Combat Expertise for prerequisites opens up Improved/Greater Trip in the future for you.

Powerful Mark is great for making sure those baddies stick on you instead of the rogue.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I have a question, though its more of a general DSP product question: A while back on this forum somewhere, I remember someone answered a question regarding Mythic support for Psionics and PoW. Has anything else come up about that? I'm planning out a Mythic campaign, and while I would love to say 'go ahead' and allow DSP stuff, if there is no Mythic support I'm going to let those languish lacking the Mythic goodies. PoW can make the default stuff work, but the other systems are screwed over.

[Lord_Gareth]

I have a question, though its more of a general DSP product question: A while back on this forum somewhere, I remember someone answered a question regarding Mythic support for Psionics and PoW. Has anything else come up about that? I'm planning out a Mythic campaign, and while I would love to say 'go ahead' and allow DSP stuff, if there is no Mythic support I'm going to let those languish lacking the Mythic goodies. PoW can make the default stuff work, but the other systems are screwed over.

You can find some support for mythic psionics on DSP's forum, though you should be warned sternly that it's still in testing and is in not a finalized product at the moment. There are little to no plans to support Path of War mythic content, mainly because the existing mythic content supports it just fine.

[The Glyphstone]

You can find some support for mythic psionics on DSP's forum, though you should be warned sternly that it's still in testing and is in not a finalized product at the moment. There are little to no plans to support Path of War mythic content, mainly because the existing mythic content supports it just fine.

How does existing mythic content effectively support PoW classes? You can't use any of the existing heroic archetype abilities for any class, because they all specify a melee/ranged attack as part of the action; there's no option to substitute a strike for that basic attack.

There are a handful of generic and universal Path abilities that an initiator could benefit from like any other class, but at least half to two-thirds of the currently printed Mythic material can't blend effectively with PoW material.

[squiggit]

How does existing mythic content effectively support PoW classes? You can't use any of the existing heroic archetype abilities for any class, because they all specify a melee/ranged attack as part of the action; there's no option to substitute a strike for that basic attack.

There are a handful of generic and universal Path abilities that an initiator could benefit from like any other class, but at least half to two-thirds of the currently printed Mythic material can't blend effectively with PoW material.

Can you be specific? I just dug through the champion and guardian and only saw a couple abilities that looked problematic.

[The Glyphstone]

Can you be specific? I just dug through the champion and guardian and only saw a couple abilities that looked problematic.

All of the Champion's Strike abilities (Distant Barrage, Fleet Charge, Sudden Attack) specify a melee or ranged attack as part of their action, as do the Marshall's Decisive Strike and all of the Trickster Attacks (Deadly Throw, Fleet Charge, Surprise Strike). The Archmage and Heirophant, obviously, do nothing for PoW, and I honestly shouldn't count them at all in my total - so of all the thematically appropriate Mythic paths, the Guardian is the only one who is actually capable of using all of its its 'core' mythic abilities effectively, and the two offensive-oriented ones can't use any of them. That just feels wrong, even if most of the abilities gained from increasing your tier are generic enough that an initiator isn't actively penalized for choosing them.


It'd be a very simple fix to add into a book or supplement, just a clause/section...a page, at most...detailing how to incorporate PoW into a Mythic game. Let Initiators with a Mythic Path use Strikes in place of melee/ranged attacks triggered by expenditure of Mythic Power, and it'd cover almost all the problems. Maybe fill out the rest of the page with a couple of Universal Path abilities or Mythic initiation feats that are juiced-up versions of normal class-specific feats similar to existing mythic feats, but that would just be extra gravy (in addition to feeling uncomfortably like a self-plug for the stuff I submitted in the DSP forum).

[squiggit]

All of the Champion's Strike abilities (Distant Barrage, Fleet Charge, Sudden Attack) specify a melee or ranged attack as part of their action, as do the Marshall's Decisive Strike and the Trickster's Surprise Strike (and Fleet Charge again).

Yeah I'm... really not seeing how any of those are a problem. Every single one of them is simply a mechanic for gaining a bonus attack... and making attacks is kind of a core thing for initiators. So I'm not sure how an initiator "can't use them".

Guess you could argue you'd rather boost, but that's not unique to initiators either.

Mythic Initiator stuff certainly could be a lot of fun, I don't disagree there, but I'm not seeing anything that you "Can't use" with a path of war class, or even anything that really conflicts with your abilities as any of those classes.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah I'm... really not seeing how any of those are a problem. Every single one of them is simply a mechanic for gaining a bonus attack... and making attacks is kind of a core thing for initiators. So I'm not sure how an initiator "can't use them".

Guess you could argue you'd rather boost, but that's not unique to initiators either.

It's not a problem that a Mythic, say, Warlord or Stalker, has to choose between using his mythic path ability and using his defining subsystem feature, where a Fighter or Rogue can just merrily Mythic-Path away with total synergy?

[squiggit]

It's not a problem that a Mythic, say, Warlord or Stalker, has to choose between using his mythic path ability and using his defining subsystem feature, where a Fighter or Rogue can just merrily Mythic-Path away with total synergy?

You don't have to choose between them though. There's nothing in the description of either Mythic rules or Initiator rules that somehow prevent you from using both systems.

I mean, activating Fleet Charge means you can't change stances or activate a boost on the same turn, but that's hardly locking you out of your entire system, and being able to get a free move, an extra attack before using your strike and getting another move on top of that doesn't seem particularly asynergistic.

[Elricaltovilla]

A minor announcement, The Bushi class template has been updated to make it compatible with the Stalker base class. You're welcome.

[Novawurmson]

Hello, everybody!

Divine warriors have been on the front lines of battle for some time, so we're rolling out some initiation love for them in the form of Warpaths. Warpaths let the holy (or unholy!) classes like clerics, inquisitors, and warpriests replace domains or blessings with a maneuver progression from a discipline of their choice.

[PsyBomb]

Hello, everybody!

Divine warriors have been on the front lines of battle for some time, so we're rolling out some initiation love for them in the form of Warpaths. Warpaths let the holy (or unholy!) classes like clerics, inquisitors, and warpriests replace domains or blessings with a maneuver progression from a discipline of their choice.

This feels... breakable. I understand it's only from one discipline, and your diety must have the weapon group among their favored weapons, but think of a Cleric of Irori using monster self-buffs plus advanced knowledge of Broken Blade. He even keeps a domain and the extra spells. I also assume you use full initiator level progression, though this is not spelled out in the document.

Needs extensive testing, in other words, and don't be scared to apply the nerfbat if need be.

[stack]

Definitely better than domain abilities, though losing the extra spells hurts. As a cleric I would always take one and grab extra maneuver readied as needed. Even caster clerics can get enough nice counters and boosts to make it worthwhile. Beats all the cleric archetypes that lose a domain or two.

[EisenKreutzer]

Shifting Warpath (Su) - Prerequisite: Wild shape class feature. Benefit: When the disciple spends a full-round action to recover warpath maneuvers, he can choose to wild shape as a swift action.

Is the intention here that the druid can initiate maneuvers while wild shaped?