**league_of_legends_thread_62: show_running_gag_title("The Wins Of Winthur");

[Anarion]

I highly doubt any of them are any more than average at best.

I'd guess that Trist is spectacular in a small subset of games that stay close enough long enough for her to get up to a high range. The other three are going to be feast or famine. I feel like good aoe casters would be really strong though. Like with ARAM, if you've got long-range poke, there's so much fighting constantly with a ton of bodies that you can expect to put down lots of damage.

[ex cathedra]

BoRK or another tank item.

there may be a point in the game at which botrk is the right choice, but I'm fairly certain that it's never at the 6-item point. I pity anyone who has to play a champ like skarner in a 50 minute game, I don't think a champ with that kind of kit can justify the loss in tank stats once adcs are at 6 items

[Ashen Lilies]

I feel like champions like Rumble or Gnar who thrive in constant aggression and cramped spaces with lots of bodies and walls to trap them in would do particularly well.

[Celesyne]

I had in particular some small degree of success with Braum. 11/0/59 worth of success with Braum.

[Math_Mage]

You just know Eldariel would be out there killing it with Anivia if he played more.

[Darth Mario]

You know who's stealth OP in Hexakill Treeline?

Sivir is stealth OP in Hexakill Treeline.

Strong midgame powerspike, teamwide speedbuffs to combo with your frontline and keep your other squishies out of harm's way AT THE SAME TIME, ability to buy Lightbringer as necessary to deal with those pesky Akalis, Teemos, and Shacos, solid burst damage, solid poke, good sustained damage, and Dat Spellshield. What more could you want.

[Lord_Gareth]

You know who's stealth OP in Hexakill Treeline?

Sivir is stealth OP in Hexakill Treeline.

Strong midgame powerspike, teamwide speedbuffs to combo with your frontline and keep your other squishies out of harm's way AT THE SAME TIME, ability to buy Lightbringer as necessary to deal with those pesky Akalis, Teemos, and Shacos, solid burst damage, solid poke, good sustained damage, and Dat Spellshield. What more could you want.

Competent Sivir players at my level >.>

<.<

[ex cathedra]

i plan on making a push for d5 in the next couple of weeks, and while i think i can make it regardless there exist some pretty pronounced flaws in my play that i should probably improve. notably, can someone teach me to not feed? i'm gonna link two replay files from my op.gg, both irelia games, one win one loss, and would appreciate someone skimming through them and offering criticism. I was fairly out of practice in both games, having not played league for 3 days prior to the first game or 5 days prior to the second (where it really shows, my basic laning mechanics were much better in the first game than in the second).

• Game 1 : http://na.op.gg/match/observer/id=1583773844
• tele/flash Irelia vs tele/flash Darius
• hard matchup, took tele instead of my usual ignite since i didn't expect to win all-ins regardless
• burn teleport to stay in lane, first 14 minutes are purely farming and 1v1 laning
• go even in lane save for ~10cs difference, performed better than expected in the 1v1 but the game swings of of darius teleport at 15m
• made the decision to push tower rather than countergank with tele since I hadn't shopped for like 10 minutes and darius was much stronger than me in a 3v3. was this correct?
• i suspect critique in this game should be focused on the mid-game phase

• Game 2 : http://na.op.gg/match/observer/id=1596158065
• ignite/flash Irelia vs ignite/flash aatrox
• skill-based matchup, took ignite+dblade for optimal all-in
• died 1v1 early for nothing but aatrox passive
• returned to lane, went all-in again, potentially lost a kill because I was too greedy with flash
• go 0/3/0 or 0/4/0 in lane all-told, start nursing a distinct CS deficit because of my constant grey-screens
• coordinated ganks, roamed, grouped, won game anyways
• i suspect critique in this game should be focused on the laning phase

Note that those links will download batch files that will open a replay in your league client. you generally shouldn't open executables on nothing but the assurance of random internet strangers, but op.gg is pretty reputable and if you don't want to use the direct links you can find the replay links manually by browsing that account's profile.

You just know Eldariel would be out there killing it with Anivia if he played more.

do you even play enough to know what gamemode we're talking about #freeMathMage2014

[mrcarter11]

Random top lane question.. If you have very strong reason to believe the enemy top isn't going to take TP, how does that effect your choice in taking or not taking it. I got into a conversation about this earlier today and would like some different view points.

Also, in terms of pure speculation, what champions do we think will likely be picked out for the Samsung skins?

[Ionbound]

So something I've noticed in my practicing and playing is that, while practicing CS with a champion I'm familiar with, I can hit ~70-90 CS in 10 minutes fairly regularly, I have a hard time CSing in lane against a real opponent, often coming out with ~25-50 CS at 10. Any thoughts on how I can improve that?

[Anarion]

Random top lane question.. If you have very strong reason to believe the enemy top isn't going to take TP, how does that effect your choice in taking or not taking it. I got into a conversation about this earlier today and would like some different view points.

Also, in terms of pure speculation, what champions do we think will likely be picked out for the Samsung skins?

1. Can I live through the lane if I take TP and they take ignite?
2. Can I win the lane if I take ignite vs. their ignite?

That's most of it for me. If I think that taking ignite is required for me to not get utterly screwed or I think that taking ignite will let me beat my opponent (even though they have ignite too), then I'll take it. Otherwise, I'd rather have TP.

[ex cathedra]

Random top lane question.. If you have very strong reason to believe the enemy top isn't going to take TP, how does that effect your choice in taking or not taking it. I got into a conversation about this earlier today and would like some different view points.

generally? it doesn't affect it. i take whatever i think will give me the biggest impact on the game, and my gameplan generally includes much more than just the champion i'm laning against, much less just one of their summoners. i find that the right summoner choice is generally the right choice regardless of what summoners my opponent takes.

[Nadevoc]

So something I've noticed in my practicing and playing is that, while practicing CS with a champion I'm familiar with, I can hit ~70-90 CS in 10 minutes fairly regularly, I have a hard time CSing in lane against a real opponent, often coming out with ~25-50 CS at 10. Any thoughts on how I can improve that?

Play more games. That's basically what it boils down to. Specifically, go into some games with the conscious choice that you won't be looking to harass or all-in your lane opponent, just CS as well as possible. Then once you're good at CSing with a lane opponent trying to prevent it, you can start adding in harassing and dueling.

[Godskook]

This is a really good video as concerns learning from games: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jZnTDOFpOz0

[Eldariel]

You just know Eldariel would be out there killing it with Anivia if he played more.

I can totally try it and see how it goes. I even played some games of it earlier. I found out that jungle Karthus is the best and no-jungler teams are bad, and random team reaction speed is horrid. Anivia is probably hilarious as soon as I can find someone to cover the jungle for me so I don't have to Jungle Anivia.

[efdf]

Game 1 : http://na.op.gg/match/observer/id=1583773844

wait too long to last hit means getting beat to two have to keep autoing
2:20 - 2:30 everything sucked
spacing sucks
3:35 why then instead of 5s earlier
please learn how to last hit under turret
5:43 could've been exploited
tabi rush is garbage, easily beatable

8:10 cannon undeniably getting hit, no circumstances where you won't go for it
therefore, it's in your best interests to walk in and out of decimate range for a short time before going for it in an attempt to bait it out
intelligent players won't bite but most players are pretty indiscriminate fishers

should've started the fight at 9:00 - benefit of ignite free toplane is you have much more time to bait and be confident of surviving

9:55 no reason to tp
10:40 should've traded
please learn how to last hit under turret
12:35 should've been afraid of rammus though he wasn't there - darius took a really bad stance that only makes sense in context of a gank. other option was to hope that darius was simply bad and go for the damage - probably superior as a gank then would've been impossible to dodge. only bad option was to ignore him and creep, which is what you did

15 min tp: correct not to tp then. proximity to turret means that darius would double kill regardless and be able to get out despite your tp; in fact, with rammus arriving it might've lead to your death too. however, should've tped when they started the dive on fiddlesticks.

16:58 ran back to stun. pls
18:50 convenience ults are weak
20:30 sick timing

ignore team pinging turret. darius was obviously there and he would've killed you if he used item actives/apprehend
you should probably stop sidelane farming at some point

Game 2 : http://na.op.gg/match/observer/id=1596158065

you're stronger at level 1. he overreached quite a bit and was punishable
dodge e pls
drop ward when in dominant position early; 3:30 would've been a won lane if not afraid of udyr
flash the knockup
why equilibrium strike for damage that early; not low enough cd that it could be used twice. might as well save it for when stun becomes applicable
should stun at 4:03
keep fighting at 6:05 no reason to back off
6:30 no reason to step into turret range
also no reason at 6:50
flash the knockup

flash the knockup

flash the knockup
flash the knockup
4-0

it's very nitpicky because macro strategy is overrated. use your abilities at the right time on the right person and you'll make it to diamond.

[Dusk Eclipse]

So Jungling in Hexakill is actually pretty fun, being about 2 levels ahead of the curve and getting 6 items despite only having 8 kills and 10 assist in a 40+ kill game was funny as heck.

[abadguy]

I like how they are giving more build paths to junglers - more options = more fun! Sad to see Wriggle's go though.

[Manticoran]

Oooo, time to talk about aether being bad at Twisted Fa... Er... Top laners, I guess. *Wanders off to watch games and take down notes*

First game: 2:20ish, you're both in wave, he walks up to you at level 1, uses Q, and you don't immediately auto-E-auto walk away for some reason?
2:50 also could have traded. with auto E auto.
3:10 same
3:17 he is now a couple hundred hp above you, when you should have been roughly even, at the very worst. Even if it's not a favorable trade, Irelia WILL return damage on an enemy melee champion, and for not really any mroe damage than you were taking anyway for the trades. Especially because you have a flask, and therefore incentive to burn your mana, it seems like a no-brainer to me.
Why did you back at about 4minutes? There's no big power spike in items you're getting there, and he hasn't gotten you to anywhere near low enough health to have significant kill pressure.
You then trade with him when he has 4-5 minion advantage as soon as you had JUST blown teleport. Waiiiii
He shoulda blown your flash at 4:40, you were easily within yank range and wayyyy to low hp.
Missing cannon minion at 5 minutes hurts me inside.
5:50 he walks up to a ton of your minons and Qs them. If you had immediately E'd, then forced a trade with him, he would have either had to take minion aggro and you likely could have won, or you got free damage off.
Random note that I prefer Dshield to Dblade on Irelia these days.
6:05 you take a Q for no damn reason
You absolutely need to work on your under-tower CS. Irelia's CSing is incredible, and should almost never miss a single minion even under tower. You'd be much closer to even with the Darius I think if you hadn't missed all the ones you could have gotten.
7:05 had opportunity to stun him under tower range with his passive on you, woulda been a free 300 or so damage on him.
9:12ish you and fiddles used your CC at the same time, also you failed your Q on a minion and so couldn't Q onto him and thus had to flash for it.
About 10 minutes you TP'd back to lane for about 4 cs, which might have been ok since you could have frozen lane right next to your tower and denied him some CS maybe, but your jungler has no pressure so far at all, and Darius is feeling really confident in the lane, so I'm kind of iffy on that even. TP for like 4 CS is almost never worth.
You take a couple more Darius Qs without trading back much/at all
11:10ish you coulda put a lot more damage down on him, since your E was coming back up. Possible kill if he misplayed by even a little. Not sure why you didn't take it.
You're reasonably lucky he keeps pushing the wave out instead of making it push at him or freezing it farther back, considering how hesitant you have been to get near him and trade with him.
Why'd you ult 12:40ish?
Yeah, probably shoulda followed that TP.
Need2respekredbuff
Also probably woulda picked up just a cloth armor when I saw the brut on Darius. 300 gold to negate the extra armor pen and a little more is a really nice investment, IMO.
At some point here your team kind of just falls apart, despite not actually being that far behind at least to start with. Also you keep walking top lane when you'd be wayyy more valuable elsewhere.

I'll do the second game tomorrow. Sleeeeeeeeeeeeepy.

[thracian]

I just watched the first 5 minutes or so of the lane against Darius, but that alone was kinda ehhhh.

You backed at a super weird time. Not low on HP or mana, not enough gold to buy anything useful, Darius pushing the wave constantly and 3 pots still available.

If you actually used your AA occasionally you might have traded better. Or rather, actually traded damage at all.

You seemed to know his Q CD better than he did, with the amount of times you walked at him right as it came up. Try to bait Q, or at least pay better attention to the CD.

Right before I stopped watching you ate a Q, two AAs and another Q without landing any real damage or getting any CS.

[ex cathedra]

im pretty sure that just being in the irelia vs darius matchup tilts me immediately, but a lot of the time spent taking damage and not trading back was done in the belief that i don't really have kill pressure in that matchup at all but a few specific moments. so, even if i did trade back, the additional damage from committing for a few more seconds doesn't really advance my game plan but every additional auto and passive refresh i take makes his level 6 power spike more potent.

i think that mindset is sometimes but not always correct, but i get overly fixated on the difficulty of that matchup and play it as if i have no chance of winning. it's a really painful replay to watch, thanks for all the feedback thus far.

i don't really care for an 80hp doran's shield on just about anyone, much less irelia.

[Siosilvar]

Even if you don't have kill pressure, any damage on the enemy laner reduces their kill pressure.

Also if you're trading auto for auto and/or not planning on winning lane, the shield's stats are better than anything a blade gives you. I don't like building it either but it's the superior choice. 8 damage reduction > 7 damage. 80 HP > 70 HP. Health regen > lifesteal if you can't freely auto the wave.

Personally I think cloth + 5 and longsword + 3 are better starts than either but I do very strange things when I play League.

[ex cathedra]

in most matchups, yes, in that particular matchup i find that to be less true.

i clearly wasn't trading autos that game, though, and it goes without saying that dshield passive doesn't apply to darius q or passive. the difference between dblade and dshield early game is not compelling enough to compensate for how significantly better dblade is after the very earliest portions of the game.

before i opened the replay, i assumed that i had started cloth+5. i guess i talked myself into flask+tele at the last moment.

cloth+5 is fine, longsword+3 is terrible in that matchup. the max health is a very relevant stat.

[Manticoran]

Second game: It makes me uncomfortable that you didn't immediately all in at level 2 when he was level 1 and you had minion advantage, and it was too early for Udyr to be up there.
Your all in was super awkward, taking a ton of minion aggro.

Urgh. You are being super weird in when you choose to engage and not engage. You had an all-in opportunity I feel right after you two traded, and he used the wrong W form on a minion, but then at 6:50 he forced you into an all-in trade where you came under tower and it was just gross.

You then come back to lane and all-in while he has exp advantage and gold advantage and his passive. Whut?

After this point, he's kind of just snowballing. Uhm, I don't agree with building defensive stats. Aatrox is like trundle in how you have to deal with him, just build more damage and he's eventually just die before he can sustain really. ESPECIALLY because you brought ignite. At least in my experience.

Uhm. Not sure how helpful watching the rest of this will be, so there's my thoughts!

Really, my advice would be just... Work on your CS and your trading. They're your two biggest problems IMO. And I feel like if you're not building a lot of AD after building Dblades, they're almost never better than a Dshield. The nerf to 3% lifesteal from life gain on hit was huuuuge.

Oh, and freakin' leave top lane if you're doing that badly. Just roam off somewhere and try for a kill.

[thracian]

If you build damage against a Trundle building tanky as a melee champion, you tend to lose fights.

[Manticoran]

I feel like that depends on champion, and if you build defense against Trundle as most melee champions he just steals them. *Shrug*

[NineThePuma]

Trundle sustains through all the things, turns into a giant killer death machine.

Sure, you could argue that eventually more damage will just kill him, but he will be able to eat a huge portion of your damage output with his Q, steals your resists and HP, and if he has the exact same amount of gold than most other champions, his inbuilt ball-o-stats will make him superior in a lot of situations.

[Manticoran]

*Except for any situation where he can't be in melee.

[thracian]

I feel like that depends on champion, and if you build defense against Trundle as most melee champions he just steals them. *Shrug*

Let me be more specific, then. If you build Triforce on Irelia and Trundle builds Sunfire Cape, you will lose all-ins as well as get out-sustained, barring major slip-ups from either side.

[Manticoran]

I will submit to your experience on that particular matter. I think about BotRK versus tank on Shyvana, or tank versus tiamat on renekton, when I think about Trundle, since the last time Trundle was viable was when those were the big top laners.