El Goonish Shive III - Totally Adorkable!

[Rater202]

Okay, I gotta say, even if I absolutely hated the kind of magic I had, I'd be practicing whenever possible and reading my spell book religiously if I had magic operating under this system...

*puts idea on the back burner for if gaming space opens up*

So I kind of find it hard to like Elliot when he's not doing the same.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, I gotta say, even if I absolutely hated the kind of magic I had, I'd be practicing whenever possible and reading my spell book religiously if I had magic operating under this system...

*puts idea on the back burner for if gaming space opens up*

So I kind of find it hard to like Elliot when he's not doing the same.

Again: you have similar magic - we all have - and we never read the instruction manuals. You probably have the magical box that prevents food from spoiling. Or the magical box that turns raw food into warm, cooked food in minutes. Or the magical box that allows you to see what is going on in distant places. And, of course, you certainly have a magical box that allows us access to the greatest extelligence the human race has ever created and that you used to post your thoughts. I think it is a good bet that you have never read any of their manuals cover to cover, just to see what is new since the last upgrade. And that is because all these objects are intuitive enough to operate without reading the boring manual, even though people a mere 50/100/150 years ago would have loved to get their hands on most of those, just like you wish you had Elliot's. Elliot already has what he wanted: to be a superhero. Sure, it comes with a few glitches, but hey, what doesn't?

Grey Wolf

[Rater202]

There's a big diferance between a microwave or refridgerator and a magic spell that (for example) let's you shoot lightning out of your eyes or summon that magic sword from the cartoon you're obsessivly devoted to.

In the first case, it's something else doing it for you-you just push the button.

In the second case, it's all you.

A more apt comparison, if you're using something like that, would be cooking a five course turkey dinner for *holiday*

you need to know the recipes and have all the ingredients before you can do it.

And regardless, Magic is not as intuitive as a microwave and it has been confirmed that you usually need to read the damn spell books

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's a big diferance between a microwave or refridgerator and a magic spell that (for example) let's you shoot lightning out of your eyes or summon that magic sword from the cartoon you're obsessivly devoted to.

In the first case, it's something else doing it for you-you just push the button.

In the second case, it's all you.

Not in EGS it is not. Elliot pushes a button and poof, he's a superhero. Susan pushes a button and poof, she's got the sword. Magic in EGS is nothing if not as intuitive as a microwave. Yes, if you read the manual you can get it to do other stuff, but most people are happy just setting the time and hitting start.

A more apt comparison, if you're using something like that, would be cooking a five course turkey dinner for *holiday*

you need to know the recipes and have all the ingredients before you can do it.

And regardless, Magic is not as intuitive as a microwave and it has been confirmed that you usually need to read the damn spell books

I'm sorry, but that is not true. All that says is that new features aren't automatically knowable. As to how intuitive it is, I'd rate making a meal, even a large one, significantly less difficult than learning to fly, and yet, Elliot didn't need to read a word of his manual to do that. The idea that he'd need to "know the recipe and have all the ingredients" is just not supported by the canon: every character gains instant usage of their spells, and reading the manual is like reading the microwaves manual: it gives you a few tweaks, but they all know the basic usage of it.

Magic in EGS does not require anyone to read the manual. Character after character have amply proven it. You read the manual to learn variations, and sometimes new spells, but the basic spell is always available, and when its dramatic enough, so is every other one - after all, Elliot's base spell is turning into a girl, and yet he got the superhero spell for free.

Grey Wolf

[Forum Explorer]

Thing is if I microwave something, it does that one thing, it microwaves it. Oh, you can make some new recipies and do some different things, but generally it's all to the tone of warm hings more.

The magic in El Goonish Shrive doesn't do that. You get more and better stuff the more you use it. The more different manners that you use it in, the more techniques you get with it. And like you said, you don't need to read the book, though that certainly helps. You just need to use it.

Also if getting a superhero form wasn't a big enough surprise to get Elliot to read his book more, then simply being able to change his superhero form slightly won't do it either.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Thing is if I microwave something, it does that one thing, it microwaves it. Oh, you can make some new recipies and do some different things, but generally it's all to the tone of warm hings more.

No, it does not "do that one thing". That has been my point from the start. We, like Elliot, are blasé about the "magic" at our fingerprints. You can fry bacon in a microwave. Poach eggs. Cook salmon from scratch. It's all there in the manual. And yet something like 80% of people never use it for anything more than making popcorn and heating ready-made meals*. In such circumstances, I find it hard to believe declarations that "I'd be practicing whenever possible and reading my spell book religiously". No, we clearly don't. Because we are so used to just doing the easy stuff, that the hard stuff is too much of a bother, when we already can do the basics.

And this is with you guys deliberately picking what you felt was the easy target. The sheer complexity of the things we can do with our computer dwarves any spell - indeed, every spell - in EGS, and yet the large, large majority of people have never read their computer's manual, and limit themselves to email, web browsing and youtube.

Grey Wolf

*I swear I saw tis number in a study somewhere, but I can't find it in a quick google search. for the purposes of this discussion, I think it is a safe enough number, but feel free to substitute your own.

[Rater202]

Okay, riddle me this: Everytime, excluding dreamers such as those marked, cast a spell without looking it up in their spell books, it was at a dramatic point.

How often does tat kind of drama happen at that level to the average awakened?

Mopperville is an area of extremely powerful ambient magic, so weird stuff happens there all the time, and Elliot is one of the main cahracters, and he awakened improperly.

He's nowhere near a typical example of a mage, so his spontaneously casting his Super Hero form spell can not be said for sure to be something that typically happens.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, riddle me this: Everytime, excluding dreamers such as those marked, cast a spell without looking it up in their spell books, it was at a dramatic point.

How often does tat kind of drama happen at that level to the average awakened?

Mopperville is an area of extremely powerful ambient magic, so weird stuff happens there all the time, and Elliot is one of the main cahracters, and he awakened improperly.

He's nowhere near a typical example of a mage, so his spontaneously casting his Super Hero form spell can not be said for sure to be something that typically happens.

I'm not going to answer this, because it has nothing to do with the matter at hand, and I don't have the time to go through the archives for other examples. My point is that you are off base when you claim that you find it hard to like Elliot when he's not reading the boring, incomprehensible manual, based on the idea that you would. Well, maybe you would, and dislike those that wouldn't - I don't know you enough to say - but most people would not, because most people would be happy enough with being able to fly that slogging through the manual just to discover that now they can fly in a slightly different costume (while still being very sexist, I might add) would not have been worth the effort. Just like most people don't bother to learn how to make anything other than popcorn in the microwave, because it's just nor worth the extra effort. And if that causes you to not like people, well, then you must not like very many people - but that's on you.

Grey Wolf

[Rater202]

A microwave is not magic powers.

I imagine most people would want to know everything they can about there magic powers, and for most people that means reading the manual.

Most people aren't gonna learn more than one way to heat something in the microwave, no, but I imagine that most people would like to know whether or not their "turn into a super hero" spell comes with secret identities or if you can customize your costume or even if you can pick your super powers, which means you need to read the manual.

The comment about drama is super relevant, because without drama, Elliot would have to have read the book to even know he had a super hero spell.

I also believe you are misunderstanding my original statement.

I did not say I din't like him for not reading the spell book. I said I dislike him when he isn't reading the manual.

It's the difference between "I hate this gut" and "this guy has an annoying and idiotic habit that I dislike." And only using a micrwave to make popcorn or heat up left overs is not an annoying and idiot habit

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A microwave is not magic powers.

Tell that to pre-1800 people. Fun fact: the second most common cause of death for females up to then was death by fire (first being, of course, child birth). A woman was far more likely to die while cooking than anything else short of sepsis. The ability to cook in two minutes, with no danger? Magic.

But we are going in circles, because I honestly do not see a difference between your two statements of dislike, just hair splitting. You want to think Elliot an idiot because he finds the manual inscrutable? Well, then you think me an idiot as well, because I too would not bother to read the manual if all it gives me is a costume change.

And since presumably you don't talk to idiots, and I most definitely don't talk to people that think I'm an idiot, that will be the last I will talk to you.

Yours,

Grey Wolf

[Rater202]

Tell that to pre-1800 people. Fun fact: the second most common cause of death for females up to then was death by fire (first being, of course, child birth). A woman was far more likely to die while cooking than anything else short of sepsis. The ability to cook in two minutes, with no danger? Magic.

But we are going in circles, because I honestly do not see a difference between your two statements of dislike, just hair splitting. You want to think Elliot an idiot because he finds the manual inscrutable? Well, then you think me an idiot as well, because I too would not bother to read the manual if all it gives me is a costume change.

Okay

1: You are making an awful lot of assumptions about what I said.

Let me repeat: The differences between the two statements are the difference between "I hate this person" and "I find this one specific habit annoying" nowhere did I call him an idiot, I called this one specific habit idiotic. Nowhere did I call him an idiot, nowhere did I call you sn idiot, and nowhere did I say I hate most people. You are putting words in my mouth.

2: You're also assuming that all it is a change of costume. For all we know, this is a completely different form with different powers. For all we know, Elliot might have a variation of his super hero spell that lets him breath acid and shoot lightning out of his toes.

Regardless, the way magic works is the more you use it, the stronger you get and the more spells you have. I would imagine that most people would at least check for new spells every so often, which is still reading the spell books.

3: I imagine that someone from the pre-1800s, if given a microwave and told what it does, what want to know everything about how it works, the same way I imagine most people would want to know everything about their magic powers.

[Spamotron]

Rater what you're not getting is that Elliot is not "most people." He grew up with Tedd as his best friend. His sense of Normal/Fantastical is far from baseline.

[Rater202]

Rater what you're not getting is that Elliot is not "most people." He grew up with Tedd as his best friend. His sense of Normal/Fantastical is far from baseline.

Counter Argument: Ellen grew up with Tedd as a best friend and grew up again in a world where aliens and magic were normal.

She still reads her spell book and Elliot's.

My point is that him not reading his spell book is a bad habit that I find annoying, regardless of how Gray Wolf interpreted my statement.

[Forum Explorer]

No, it does not "do that one thing". That has been my point from the start. We, like Elliot, are blasé about the "magic" at our fingerprints. You can fry bacon in a microwave. Poach eggs. Cook salmon from scratch. It's all there in the manual. And yet something like 80% of people never use it for anything more than making popcorn and heating ready-made meals*. In such circumstances, I find it hard to believe declarations that "I'd be practicing whenever possible and reading my spell book religiously". No, we clearly don't. Because we are so used to just doing the easy stuff, that the hard stuff is too much of a bother, when we already can do the basics.

And this is with you guys deliberately picking what you felt was the easy target. The sheer complexity of the things we can do with our computer dwarves any spell - indeed, every spell - in EGS, and yet the large, large majority of people have never read their computer's manual, and limit themselves to email, web browsing and youtube.

Grey Wolf

*I swear I saw tis number in a study somewhere, but I can't find it in a quick google search. for the purposes of this discussion, I think it is a safe enough number, but feel free to substitute your own.

All of that is simply some form of heating up your food. You might be heating up your food in a different manner, but that's all it's doing. But sure, lets say microwave is a bad example and move on.

Computers is a much better example, though not a good one personally. I'm going into programming so that I can access the crazy stuff computers can do. Cars is another good example, and while I'm not trying to upgrade my car to do more stuff, I'm fully cognizant of what you can do with a car. I'm just not interested in learning those skills because all I want out of my car is a means to get from point A to point B.

But that's the thing, I'm interested in computers and put my effort there. I'm not interested in cars so I don't put any effort in there. I imagine most people are the same for their own interests and hobbies.

Magic though, doesn't follow that. Yes, it takes time and effort to learn and use, but by the rules of magic in El Goonish Shrive, you will get spells that are a reflection of yourself, and thus are almost always something you are interested in. (Barring awakening improperly). If I had access to it? You can damn well bet I'd be focusing on improving it as much as possible. Afterall, whatever I get will likely help me with what I want to do in life or my daily life because it's a reflection of me.

And we've seen how easy it is to improve your magic. It simply just casting as many spells as you can til you run out of magic. Nanase was able to practice her magic while going through her daily school life. Alright, she had subtle enough spells to do so with, but it wouldn't be much harder for say, Ellen to zap herself repeatedly, or for Susan to put a pencil in her box and repeatedly summon it. It is substantially harder to get good at programming, or to rebuild a souped up engine of a car.

[Egneil]

Who's to say he received this new spell during a time when he could read his spellbook? His superhero spell could have modified when his identity was revealed, not because of some contingency planned into the spell, but because his identity was revealed against his will.

Narratively I'd say it's 50/50 that Elliot was routinely reading his spellbook. Not reading his spellbook would be a decent catalyst for character growth, on the other hand it'd be funny having him reading his spellbook only for it to be completely ineffectual.

[memnarch]

Counter Argument: Ellen grew up with Tedd as a best friend and grew up again in a world where aliens and magic were normal.

She still reads her spell book and Elliot's.

My point is that him not reading his spell book is a bad habit that I find annoying, regardless of how Gray Wolf interpreted my statement.

Counter counter argument: Ellen is more impulsive than Elliot. Elliot, being much more passive in nature in general, is probably gonna lead to him just going on with life as it was before he got his spellbook. That's not to say you can't find it annoying or anything, just other people aren't going to agree for various other reasons.

Edit:

...

Narratively I'd say it's 50/50 that Elliot was routinely reading his spellbook. Not reading his spellbook would be a decent catalyst for character growth, on the other hand it'd be funny having him reading his spellbook only for it to be completely ineffectual.

I'd find it being ineffectual amusing, at least for a bit.

[Rater202]

Counter counter argument: Ellen is more impulsive than Elliot. Elliot, being much more passive in nature in general, is probably gonna lead to him just going on with life as it was before he got his spellbook. That's not to say you can't find it annoying or anything, just other people aren't going to agree for various other reasons.

Counter Counter Counter Argument: spellbooks are important and it has, in fact, been demonstrated that spontanious casting of new spells is not normal and that you need to check the books to know what you can do.

We have evidence that spells can be modified in major ways or develop new features(Nanase's fairy getting the abiility to scry on her body of launch fairy punches.)

If nothing else, If Elliot hasn't been checking to see if Cheerleadra has new powers or something, especially since he's been chastised for not checking his book before...

---

Now it's time for a Pol: Who here would regularly check their spell book if they awakened?

[Lizard Lord]

If I was a EGS magic user I would most likely just skim my spellbook every so often to get the gist of what my spells do as well as see if I have new spells. I would consider potentially overlooked details like costume changes too minor to bother with all that "wordiness" of the books.

[Douglas]

Now it's time for a Pol: Who here would regularly check their spell book if they awakened?

I'd probably end up scrutinizing every detail in hopes of finding a way to "break" magic the way high end D&D optimization often does.

[Forum Explorer]

Now it's time for a Pol: Who here would regularly check their spell book if they awakened?

That depends how quickly you gain new spells. Because while I would certainly put in whatever time is needed to exhaust my magic for a day, I wouldn't check my spellbook every day (unless that's actually how fast most people gain spells).

I'd likely check every week or so, assuming Nanase's development isn't completely absurd in it's speed. But lets say she got her spells a full 10 times faster then the average. Then I'd likely only check my spellbook once every two weeks, and that would only be a glance looking for something new. I'd try for a close read every month or so.

[Ibrinar]

All of that is simply some form of heating up your food. You might be heating up your food in a different manner, but that's all it's doing. But sure, lets say microwave is a bad example and move on.

Computers is a much better example, though not a good one personally. I'm going into programming so that I can access the crazy stuff computers can do.

So now I'm curious, do you read the manuals? Because the programming world is full of them and I usually only search for the information I need at the moment. (Except when learning the basics of something. )


As for the spell book if it is dense writing I would probably skim it the first time and only read some bits thoroughly. Then I would occasionally check for changes, at the beginning probably frequently but after a while (if big changes aren't super common) I don't think I would look at it more than once a month. I would certainly train it but minor changes just aren't all that interesting. If it was a magic system where you really had to study to master skills that would be something different.

[Forum Explorer]

So now I'm curious, do you read the manuals? Because the programming world is full of them and I usually only search for the information I need at the moment. (Except when learning the basics of something. )


As for the spell book if it is dense writing I would probably skim it the first time and only read some bits thoroughly. Then I would occasionally check for changes, at the beginning probably frequently but after a while (if big changes aren't super common) I don't think I would look at it more than once a month. I would certainly train it but minor changes just aren't all that interesting. If it was a magic system where you really had to study to master skills that would be something different.

Of the computer? I don't think my last computer actually came with one. Just a pamphlet of how to charge it properly.

Of the language, just specific stuff to figure out how to use a new function. From what I can tell the manual is meant to be used that way, since just calling man gives you an error. You have to look for something specific, since we don't have a physical copy.

[Cavelcade]

It would depend - if what was in there was only a spell I already knew, I probably wouldn't read it, or would only read it once and then just mess around with it. I would probably intend to read it more often and more thoroughly but, like with most intentions, other things would get in the way. Such is life.

And this is with you guys deliberately picking what you felt was the easy target. The sheer complexity of the things we can do with our computer dwarves any spell - indeed, every spell - in EGS

With the possible exception of Sarah's ? spell, if arguments here are anything to go by.

[eschmenk]

So do I, but that doesn't mean I sit with, say, Unix's man pages printout and read it cover to cover.

That's a silly analogy. All Eliot would have to do would be to look at the back of his book and see if anything was added. It could be something that would be very valuable to him, so it would be in his best interests to pay attention to it.

Also, no trusted authority figure has ever told you to read all the man pages, have they? Eliot has been told that he needs to keep up with what is added to his book. That's a very different situation.

[The Mormegil]

I think I would thoroughly read my spellbook the first time I get it. After realizing the task is daunting and requires a lot of effort, I would start skimming it and taking notes. I'm good at quickly gathering the most important points of difficult technical manuals - it's basically what I do as a job. I would spend a good amount of time trying to develop my magic, and would keep detailed account of any difference in the spellbook, formulating a model for its growth speed. At that point I would cut the time I spend checking in on the manual based on my model until I figure the model needs refining. I guess I would also keep checking the part I wish would change next just like how I check Facebook compulsively.

I agree that magic would be significantly different from modern world technology, because it is non-standard, personal and exciting. If magic was commonplace, I would not bother reading my spellbook, it would be one of those things like "properly backup your computer" that I just know I should do but don't ever do anyway.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Of the computer? I don't think my last computer actually came with one. Just a pamphlet of how to charge it properly.

Unix comes with man pages. Mac and Windows have "help" menus. Not sure what the various flavours of Linux come with, not having seen any in years, but I'm guessing they have them as well.

With the possible exception of Sarah's ? spell, if arguments here are anything to go by.

A VR copy of the world, with limited range and god mode unlocked? Not so different from a sandbox game - say, GTA. Computers can definitely handle such things, although the magic does have the edge on the quickness it generates the VR and how often it can refresh it, of course (and that it comes at no cost. It seems you can learn to fly IRL for $5000, and many hours of training. Elliot got it for free, instantly, and without even having to RTFM).

GW

[halfeye]

Unix comes with man pages. Mac and Windows have "help" menus. Not sure what the various flavours of Linux come with, not having seen any in years, but I'm guessing they have them as well.

None of that is about programming. Which is what you have to do to really use it fully. There are programming manuals, but they're not free, even if the programming language is, which the majority I would guess aren't.

I'm not saying you can't use computers without programming them, that would be silly and wrong, but there is a deeper level of use that's only available to you when you do. Programming has become harder to begin over the years, early computers used to come with basic, now they don't come with a programming language at all.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

None of that is about programming. Which is what you have to do to really use it fully. There are programming manuals, but they're not free, even if the programming language is, which the majority I would guess aren't.

I don't know about windows, but both mac and unix come with a c compiler, and the man pages. That is all you need. But that was not what I was talking about - even without going into programming, most computers can do a hell of a lot more than most people care to learn, and yet no-one reads the help pages to learn what has been added since the last upgrade, which is the equivalent of Elliot reading the manual to see if he has got a new variation on the spell he already has.

Grey Wolf

[halfeye]

I don't know about windows, but both mac and unix come with a c compiler, and the man pages. That is all you need. But that was not what I was talking about - even without going into programming, most computers can do a hell of a lot more than most people care to learn, and yet no-one reads the help pages to learn what has been added since the last upgrade, which is the equivalent of Elliot reading the manual to see if he has got a new variation on the spell he already has.

Grey Wolf

Windows installs uodates all the time, there is almost no text with them to say what they do. People don't read it because it's not there. Most people wouldn't if it was, which is why it isn't, but you don't get the option.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Windows installs uodates all the time, there is almost no text with them to say what they do. People don't read it because it's not there. Most people wouldn't if it was, which is why it isn't, but you don't get the option.

I was more thinking reading the manuals between major operating systems changes (say, vista to 7 to 8 to 8.1), but sure, that counts as well. Heck, we should read the changes to the user terms and conditions (Apple for a while was helpful enough to actually put the changes up front, not that it made a difference), and we know how well we are all at reading those, even those are a binding contract.

GW