Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann

[Selpharia]

Pretty sure Scorpion Claws are still not Unwieldy.

They're not. The exarch also gets a bunch more attacks if challenged.

[Cheesegear]

When you lose in Assault to anything with a decent Initiative, failing that Leadership means the unit is gone.

Also noting that if you're losing an Assault, you stop being Ld10, and start testing against 9 or 8, and that's where things really get...Dicey.

[JNAProductions]

If I wanted to sell some old Necrons (Nemesor Zahndrekh, a couple of warriors, a few scarabs) where would be the best place to do so?

Thanks in advance.

[Requizen]

If I wanted to sell some old Necrons (Nemesor Zahndrekh, a couple of warriors, a few scarabs) where would be the best place to do so?

Thanks in advance.

I'd go to your FLGS first and ask around. New people getting into it would enjoy discounts, as would Necron players who want to expand. After that, eBay, I'd say.

[JNAProductions]

FLGS? I probably should know that abbreviation, but nope. No clue.

[Requizen]

FLGS? I probably should know that abbreviation, but nope. No clue.

Friendly Local Game Store

Basically go to where people are playing and see if anyone is looking to buy. You can usually get a bite or two if you're selling at a reasonable rate and they don't look bad.

[JNAProductions]

Ah. I thought it was something like that.

They're largely unpainted. I want pretty models, but damn do I not like painting. (At least my Hellchicken isn't too hard to paint.)

Not sure if anyone needs extra 'Crons, but hey. I'm heading in tomorrow, might as well give it a shot.

Edit: Also, has anyone used the Thunderstrike Gauntlet yet? Hurl looks super fun, but is it actually worth it?

[Cheesegear]

Has someone done a Skitarii Guide, yet? I also recall a Harlequins Guide, too. But I don't remember who did it.

[Turalisj]

*whispers*Necrons guide hasn't been updated since the new codex*whispers*

[Squark]

Whoops, I did the HQs and troops, but then got caught up in finals. I'll get back to work on it.

[Requizen]

Whoops, I did the HQs and troops, but then got caught up in finals. I'll get back to work on it.

I could help if you're busy. I like writing long winded paragraphs about how awesome Necrons are =]

[Grim Portent]

Finished my last exam today so I'll see about getting my R&Hs guide finished over the next few days.

[Cheesegear]

Everything is free.

Spoiler: Cult Mechanicus

Show

Although it does take you three Codecies to use.

[JNAProductions]

How the... What the... Why the...

How is that balanced at all?

[Requizen]

How the... What the... Why the...

How is that balanced at all?

At first glance, because the Skitarii Battle Maniple is the Formation that requires you to take 1 of everything except only one version of the Ballistarii/Dragoons. So, that right there is pretty expensive, and that's before you add on the extra Ballistarii/Dragoons and Dunecrawlers to their respective squads. Not to mention that Infiltrators and Ballistarii/Dragoons are fairly mediocre. We also don't know what the Battle Congregation is, for all we know it could be another expensive Detachment/Formation that makes the thing unusable under 2000 points.

But yeah, if you play at a point level where this this is feasible it's pretty bat****.

[Cheesegear]

How the... What the... Why the...

How is that balanced at all?

It's what I like to call a 'Collector's Formation' and is basically unusable, it looks good on paper, but is largely terrible. The only thing that you get out of it is free wargear. The Blood Angels have a similar Formation, where all Sternguard get Combi-Weapons for free, and all Vanguard get Lightning Claws or Power Weapons for free. Sounds great, right? Well, if it's so great, how come nobody uses it? Well, Vanguard are basically garbage - especially in the Blood Angels' book where Vanguard are competing with Death Company and Sanguinary Guard.

Same thing with this War Convocation, the 'free' wargear you get is vastly outweighed by the fact that you have to spend points at all on 'dead weight' units. It cancels out. It doesn't matter that Vanguard get Power Weapons for free, because Sanguinary Guard already have them, and 2+ Armour, and come with Jump Packs as standard.

Collector's Formations are generally, as a rule, not good.
1) GW wants you to buy 'one of everything', and that's bad. Spam Redundancy is how you win games. Like how nearly all Blood Angels' Formations require a Stormraven, even when the Stormraven is sub-optimal for the Formation that it's even in.
2) They come with stupid restrictions; If my Sternguard have free Combi-Weapons, I want them in a Drop Pod, not a Stormraven - fail Formation.
3) By taking 'one of everything', you typically end up at ludicrous points levels. I, personally, rarely play games above 1850 unless it's Apocalypse. If a Formation - no matter how broken - costs more than 1850 Points - or costs the majority of that and doesn't have Objective Secured - it's useless to me. I just can't use it. I personally, don't care about the limited release 5 Knights Formation, because I can't use it anyway - It's trap! If I am playing Apocalypse, well, nearly all Apocalypse Formations are broken in some fashion. In regular 40K, that is. Being 'broken' in Apocalypse doesn't mean anything, unless a Formation is broken even by Apocalypse standards - which is rare.

[thedavo]

3) Being 'broken' in Apocalypse doesn't mean anything, unless a Formation is broken even by Apocalypse standards - which is rare.

*cough* Eldar Titan Formation *cough*

[Grim Portent]

I'm toying with the idea of adding a small Chaos Daemons CAD to my daemonkin lists to serve as the primary in order to pick up the warpstorm table for it's potential to buff my daemons or blast my enemies and I'm wondering what the best HQ would be for a mini detachment, big and powerful, small and cheap or something with good psychic powers to cover up a weakness.

[Cheesegear]

I'm toying with the idea of adding a small Chaos Daemons CAD to my daemonkin lists to serve as the primary in order to pick up the warpstorm table for it's potential to buff my daemons or blast my enemies and I'm wondering what the best HQ would be for a mini detachment, big and powerful, small and cheap or something with good psychic powers to cover up a weakness.

Well, Daemonkin don't have Daemonic Instability, so, you're not really Battle Brothers in regards to having Independent Characters join units. However, you are still Battle Brothers anyway, and you can cast Powers on stuff. Specifically, the old chestnut of casting Invisibility of the biggest, scariest thing you can find. Insensate Rage + Invisibility. It's a thing that exists.

(W) Herald of Slaanesh; Exalted Reward, ML2, Grace, Steed - 150 Points
Herald of Slaanesh; Greater Reward, ML2, Beguilement, Steed - 160 Points
Herald of Slaanesh; ML2, Steed - 110 Points

Daemonettes of Slaanesh (x10); Instrument, Alluress; Greater Reward - 125 Points
Daemonettes of Slaanesh (x10); Instrument, Alluress; Greater Reward - 125 Points

Seekers of Slaanesh (xxx); Instrument, Heartseeker; Greater Reward - 95+ Points

Total: 765+ Points (add more Seekers).
Remembering that with more Instruments on the table, your Daemons of Khorne are less likely to get hit when you roll an '8', since Instruments do not specify Pass or Fail. Just that you get a re-roll, no strings. With six rolls on Telepathy, you should get at least one instance of Invisibility, and you only need one, since a unit can only manifest the same Power once, you should also get an instance of Shrouded. Cast Invisibility on your biggest Bloodthirster, cast Shrouded on your Grimoire unit, and hope everything goes smoothly. Alternatively, Insensate Rage does have the Daemon special rule, so Grimoire + Cursed Earth is also legit.

Of course, this is putting Slaanesh and Khorne in the same army, and that's not cool.

[Grim Portent]

Well, Daemonkin don't have Daemonic Instability, so, you're not really Battle Brothers in regards to having Independent Characters join units. However, you are still Battle Brothers anyway, and you can cast Powers on stuff. Specifically, the old chestnut of casting Invisibility of the biggest, scariest thing you can find. Insensate Rage + Invisibility. It's a thing that exists.

(W) Herald of Slaanesh; Exalted Reward, ML2, Grace, Steed - 150 Points
Herald of Slaanesh; Greater Reward, ML2, Beguilement, Steed - 160 Points
Herald of Slaanesh; ML2, Steed - 110 Points

Daemonettes of Slaanesh (x10); Instrument, Alluress; Greater Reward - 125 Points
Daemonettes of Slaanesh (x10); Instrument, Alluress; Greater Reward - 125 Points

Seekers of Slaanesh (xxx); Instrument, Heartseeker; Greater Reward - 95+ Points

Total: 765+ Points (add more Seekers).
Remembering that with more Instruments on the table, your Daemons of Khorne are less likely to get hit when you roll an '8', since Instruments do not specify Pass or Fail. Just that you get a re-roll, no strings. With six rolls on Telepathy, you should get at least one instance of Invisibility, and you only need one, since a unit can only manifest the same Power once, you should also get an instance of Shrouded. Cast Invisibility on your biggest Bloodthirster, cast Shrouded on your Grimoire unit, and hope everything goes smoothly. Alternatively, Insensate Rage does have the Daemon special rule, so Grimoire + Cursed Earth is also legit.

Of course, this is putting Slaanesh and Khorne in the same army, and that's not cool.

I'm half considering using a Tzeentch Daemon Prince and Nurglings for minimum troops, just so I can take the Grimoire and have a wide selection of disciplines to choose from without costing too much, and the Prince is more versatile than heralds are.

Fateweaver would be best for avoiding Warp Storm related drawbacks affecting my army, but his psychic powers don't do a whole lot for Khorne Daemons.

A GUO with malefic powers would be the best way to buff my daemons saves reliably with Cursed Earth + 1WoA Land Raider for +2 to all Daemons of Khorne invulns within 12" of both, for 3+ becoming 2+ if the warp table goes my way. This also the most fluffy option since Khorne hates Nurgle the least.

Heralds by and large can't throw out any useful buffs except the Slaaneshi heralds with Telepathy, Biomancy is pretty useless for buffing, Divination pointless for Daemonkin unless it's a vehicle heavy list, Malefic is great but they lack the size needed to buff a wide area.



A GUO with mastery 3 and the grimoire is 270 points, 2 nurgling units is another 90. 360 points seems like a bargain for the potential buffs that could be thrown out onto my army, not to mention the warlord being a T7 W6 monster with shrouded, which is a step up from chaos lords and bloodthirsters durability wise.

[Requizen]

I'm half considering using a Tzeentch Daemon Prince and Nurglings for minimum troops, just so I can take the Grimoire and have a wide selection of disciplines to choose from without costing too much, and the Prince is more versatile than heralds are.

Fateweaver would be best for avoiding Warp Storm related drawbacks affecting my army, but his psychic powers don't do a whole lot for Khorne Daemons.

A GUO with malefic powers would be the best way to buff my daemons saves reliably with Cursed Earth + 1WoA Land Raider for +2 to all Daemons of Khorne invulns within 12" of both, for 3+ becoming 2+ if the warp table goes my way. This also the most fluffy option since Khorne hates Nurgle the least.

Heralds by and large can't throw out any useful buffs except the Slaaneshi heralds with Telepathy, Biomancy is pretty useless for buffing, Divination pointless for Daemonkin unless it's a vehicle heavy list, Malefic is great but they lack the size needed to buff a wide area.



A GUO with mastery 3 and the grimoire is 270 points, 2 nurgling units is another 90. 360 points seems like a bargain for the potential buffs that could be thrown out onto my army, not to mention the warlord being a T7 W6 monster with shrouded, which is a step up from chaos lords and bloodthirsters durability wise.

All decent options. Disagree about Fateweaver though. Since each head rolls on Malefic Daemonology, he has 2 chances for Cursed Earth. Telepathy has Shrouding and Invisibility for buffing, and Psychic Shriek for softening up targets. Biomancy has Endurance or Enfeeble. Div has Prescience, Misfortune, and Forewarning which are good buffs. Yes, one throw on each table means you don't have a high shot at getting all of them, but considering most have decent primarises, you should get at least 2 useful Powers even if your generated ones are crap.

I like GUOs, but depending on what Khorne things you bring he might be useless. If you're loading up on fast stuff like Bikes, Hounds, or Vehicles going Flat Out, the GUO (who can't Run) is going to lag behind and be unable to help much after a couple turns.

If you really just want to buff your guys, Be'Lakor is decent, and he's a good Assault monster to support Khorne. Free Invisibility and Shrouding, and a Fleshbane/Armorbane weapon to help crush anything that might be too tough for the rest of your army. But then you can't bring Grimoire unless you take a Daemon CAD and put it on a Herald or something.

Just my $0.02, since I don't play Daemonkin.

[Grim Portent]

I like GUOs, but depending on what Khorne things you bring he might be useless. If you're loading up on fast stuff like Bikes, Hounds, or Vehicles going Flat Out, the GUO (who can't Run) is going to lag behind and be unable to help much after a couple turns.

Hmm, that is the big problem, do I go with a footlsogging horde of 3++ bloodletters, or do I stick with rapid moving stuff and shell out the points for a Winged Daemon Prince or Lord of Change instead.

I'll give Be'lakor a look though, he's generally worth fielding in any army even without the ability to use buff big blocks of daemons.

EDIT: A ML3 nurgle prince with wings and grimoire is 305 points but can keep pace with flesh hounds ,warp talons and vehicles, can jink for a 2+ cover save and is more than capable of smashing face alongside Daemons of Khorne, though it lacks the durability of the GUO. So it's 395 points for a prince plus minimum troops, which is what I'll ultimately go with I think, maybe throw Be'lakor in as well for funzies.

If I can get this to work at all it may even make Bloodcrushers worth using, T4 with a 3++ isn't too bad for survivability, though Flesh Hounds are still better.

EDIT2: Wait, if I go for a footslogging list I can add Skarbrand in for massive amounts of Rage and Hatred buffing the power armoured bloodletters, and he's tougher and cheaper than using blood thrones to do the same thing.

Picking between daemon shenanigans is hard.

[Requizen]

Very reliable source is saying Space Marines and Dark Angels coming up. I kinda wanna start an AdMech army but I also sorta want to see what Raven Guard become with the new book. They and their Raptor successors are my favorite Space Marines chapters right now.

[Cheesegear]

Is it just me, or are Skitarii super-strong?
Entire army Scouts in your face and pops 'Everything is BS7 now'. Lack of HQ options is more than made up for by the fact that every Character in the book can take a Relic, and each Relic seems to be tailored to a certain Character or unit, which means pretty much all the Relics are useful - except the 'cute joke' Skull Relic. Their Warlord Trait Table is also really strong, especially since Skitarii don't have ATSKNF - basically, if you roll a Trait, you can use it. Especially given that you should really be in a Detachment/Formation that allows you to re-roll it if you get the single Warlord Trait that isn't good.

Doctrina also don't scale, and those types of Universal army rules (Ultramarines' Combat Doctrines, Warp Storm Table, etc.) are perfectly reasonable in 1500 Points or above. But, in low points games? I mentioned it earlier; Turn 1, everything is BS7. It's silly and stupid. Exactly like the Warp Storm Table, or, less random; Daemon units casting Sacrifice or Possession. You basically break the format that low points games require. But, that's something we already know; The lower your points limit, the less balanced the game becomes. Unfortunately, the 'new meta' that the low points restriction creates can't even be offset by tailoring or 'knowledge of your/the meta' since low points restrictions hamstrings in what you can take, which makes it far worse.

I don't know what the answer to the problem is. The answer is not 40K in 40mins. rules, I know that for a fact, since it removes models - and in a few cases, entire armies - from the game, it just creates a different meta. One answer could be just to simply remove those army-wide special rules from the low points format, but, of the examples that I can think of, those army special rules are what makes the Faction balanced and not underpowered and sucky.

Or, as I've said a handful of times in the 20 or so threads that I've been around; 40K just isn't designed to be played under <750 Points.

[Manticoran]

Agreed. I prefer 850+ personally. Various weapons in the game are enough "hard counters" to other things in the game often enough, that unless you are one of the few armies that can run one or two guns that can take most callers, a lot of armies at 500 points are just not going to be able to field enough of the "right things" to fight your opponents "right things", if their "right things" they can afford to take at 500 points are more generalized than yours are, or their things have more specific things that need to be used to fight them.

MCs and tanks being the big example, where if your opponent can run 2x Hive Tyrant at 500 points(Which unless there are special rules, one can), the chance that your opponent has enough Skyfire to actually do much to you is pretty unlikely. Some particular armies could, such as a Tau list with enough Markerlights, but... *Shrug*. A lot of units in 40k are what I call question units, where you ask your opponent if they brought the right thing, and if not, you win. In larger games, this is less of a question of "did you bring the right thing" and more "is your right thing in the right place", which I find a lot more interesting.

Skitarii are interesting to me because they can really bring two units and be able to fight basically anything ever. Their anti-infantry unit can kill almost any infantry in the game points-efficient, and their weapons do... Well, exactly what they're supposed to. The anti-tank weapons WILL kill tanks, and the anti-infantry weapons WILL kill infantry.

[Cheesegear]

Some quick numbers;

Dark Vengeance
Dark Angels - 740 Points
Chaos Marines - 658 Points. Noting that Crimson Slaughter adds 80 Points; 738 Points

The Helbrute has a total AV of 34, both sides have a Character with 3 Wounds, the Dark Angels have 2+ Saves - with CS, so does Kranon (Daemonheart).
This is the starter set, designed to teach people how the game works.

Stormclaw
The Fierce-Eye's Finest - 600 Points
Grukk's Rippin' Krew - 525 Points

Both sides have Character with 3 Wounds. The Space Wolves have 2+ Saves.

Deathstorm
Strike Force Deathstorm - 725 Points
Phodian Annihilation Swarm - 555 Points

Karlean has 3 Wounds, Cassor has tAV 34, Terminators. The Tyranids have several models with 3 Wounds - and one with 4!

Something tells me that 40K in 40mins. is totally wrong for 7th Ed. Dark Vengeance is clearly designed for 750 Points, with Crimson Slaughter fixing a critical hole in that box. While Stormclaw and Deathstorm average to ~600 Points.

[Tehnar]

Its the consequence of having units with a very strong defense (either by virtue of being hard to reach/attack, great saves, lots of wounds/HP or high AV values) that can be legally fielded in low point games). I am not entirely sure it is unintentional, as bigger point games means more models you need to buy.

The bad part for GW is that it discourages a lot of new players due to having to buy a lot of things just to play the game. And that games take a while. Case in point; Warhammer Fantasy practically requires games over 1500+ points (and more like 2000+) to have a balanced game. Which I believe is the main reason the sales died off and is getting a hard reset.

[Grim Portent]

Has anyone got any ideas for how to convert a DV Helbrute's multi-melta into a missile launcher?

I just got two off ebay to start my 1k helbrutes list and while I can easily model on power scourges I'm a bit stumped for bits to use for missiles.

[Manticoran]

In particular, it's the benefit of different types of units with really high defense, as far as I can tell. The fact that you need a very different weapon to take down a Land Raider or a FMC means that it's very hard to bring enough of the right type of things.

[Drasius]

Has anyone got any ideas for how to convert a DV Helbrute's multi-melta into a missile launcher?

I just got two off ebay to start my 1k helbrutes list and while I can easily model on power scourges I'm a bit stumped for bits to use for missiles.

Missile launcher off the Sentinal kit, cut the multi melta short and then greenstuff daemon flesh to marry them up. Alternately, just lop that arm off and whack a marine dreadnought misssile launcher on there and call it a day.

Could also just greenstuff some rocket tips/glue some ork rocket tips onto the multimelta barrels and green stuff over the multimelta barrel holes and do it that way. I've seen some decent conversions with a havok launcher used as the rocket pod arm as well, though that might get a little confusing if you also use havok launchers on your other units. Could probably also use some hunter killers, the ones from the Ironclad dread kit would be fairly appropriate.