Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIII: I Do Not Like Green Tides and 'Hann

[Tehnar]

I don't think snipers are all that bad against Gargantuans. Against a WK in cover or with a 5++, a single sniper hit has a 2/27 chance to deal a wound (or about 15 BS 4 snipers per wound). Considering that against the old WK you had a 2/9 chance to wound per sniper hit, he is just 3 times tougher to wound.

It might not be the optimal way to deal wounds to the WK, but kroot and other snipers en mass can take off a few wounds each round from the WK. If they fill your troop choices anyway, why not take them?

[Cheesegear]

I don't think snipers are all that bad against Gargantuans.

I'm actually fairly certain that that's the idea.

A Pulse Rifle, S5, only Wounds on a '6', the Wraithknight gets save.
A Sniper Round, also Wounds on a '6', but when it does, it Rends, the Wraithknight does not get a save.

[Yaktan]

So this is my first crack at making a 7th edition list.

I also like shadowsun. Sadly right now she can only deploy with kroot or stealth suits, though giving the kroot super cover saves could work out well.

I would suggest dropping the drones on the riptide and add a stimulant injector. Saves a few points, avoids having the riptide run away when one of the drones dies, adds survivability vs. non-ap 2, and gives a chance to negate a nova reactor explosion.

Also, I would suggest having the crisis team be more focused (Probably fusion, but depends on exactly what you need), and possibly switch the broadsides to the missile pods. That one I am not as sure on, since the missiles tend to be much better except against AV 14 vehicles, but 3 shots that can only glance do not do that much against a land raider anyway, so...

[Grim Portent]

Single model units are bad in Dreadclaws because there's a 1 in 6 chance it'll just eat the thing.

Somehow I completely missed the fact it has Daemonic Possession.

So that's Ferrus Infernums made pointless, as are contemptors since their guns aren't really that great and they can't close very fast, so that means the decimator and normal helbrute are the only ones that can deepstrike properly, and the helbrute needs to do it as a group of three.

Oh well, I guess the Dreadclaw is still a good way to get meltas and asault troops into short range at least, even if csm walkers still suck more than they should.

[LordDavenport]

The issue is more that vehicles suck. Because of how the armor mechanic works, they generally have to have another save.

Note the number of playable walkers, then not the number of playable "MCs-That-Should-Be-Walkers." I really doubt people would field riptides if they were walkers. Same for wraith knights.

[Squark]

The issue is more that vehicles suck. Because of how the armor mechanic works, they generally have to have another save.

Note the number of playable walkers, then not the number of playable "MCs-That-Should-Be-Walkers." I really doubt people would field riptides if they were walkers. Same for wraith knights.

Wraithknights would be fine, although if they were Super heavy walkers they'd basically be Eldar Knights. Riptides would be hit hard, though.

[Grim Portent]

The issue is more that vehicles suck. Because of how the armor mechanic works, they generally have to have another save.

Note the number of playable walkers, then not the number of playable "MCs-That-Should-Be-Walkers." I really doubt people would field riptides if they were walkers. Same for wraith knights.

I think the issue is more that high AV is overcosted and walkers compound the issue by being slow and usually sacrifice being good at one job for being bad at two. Dreadnoughts are slow, bad in assault and bad in shooting without exorbitant points expenditure. Maulerfiends are fast, decent in assault, and more durable than dreadnoughts for just a small price bump and losing their shooting.

Wraithknights would be fine, although if they were Super heavy walkers they'd basically be Eldar Knights. Riptides would be hit hard, though.

I dunno, if a riptide was AV 14/13/12 I think it could still be pretty good.

[Dragonus45]

I also like shadowsun. Sadly right now she can only deploy with kroot or stealth suits, though giving the kroot super cover saves could work out well.

I would suggest dropping the drones on the riptide and add a stimulant injector. Saves a few points, avoids having the riptide run away when one of the drones dies, adds survivability vs. non-ap 2, and gives a chance to negate a nova reactor explosion.

Also, I would suggest having the crisis team be more focused (Probably fusion, but depends on exactly what you need), and possibly switch the broadsides to the missile pods. That one I am not as sure on, since the missiles tend to be much better except against AV 14 vehicles, but 3 shots that can only glance do not do that much against a land raider anyway, so...

Yea, and deploying her with a stealth suit kind of feels like a waste of her abilities.

I guess I should be ok on fusion with the piranhas, but I also wish I could have gotten a full 5 of them in so more fusion from the crisis team isn't the worst idea I suppose. Are missile pods better? I admit I might still be thinking of the good old days when they were str 10 on the railguns.

[Grim Portent]

Seeing as we've got quite a few chaos players I thought I'd share some of the more interesting stuff from IA13: Chaos Gizmos and Gadgets.

First off is the Technomancer rules. A subset of the Infernal Relic rule, it states that if a Warpsmith, Malefic Sorcerer or Abaddon is embarked on a transport with Daemonic Possession the player doesn't need to roll for a model to be eaten. If they want it to happen it does, if they don't it doesn't. They also get to pick which model is eaten. This is really nice, since it makes Daemonic Possession something other than a terrible mistake on transports.

Even better though is the Legacies of Ruin, a bunch of unique upgrades that can be given to chaos vehicles to give some pretty good buffs. Each is once per army, but each vehicle can have as many as it wants. Daemonic vehicles of any kind can't have them, so no Daemonic Possession vehicles, daemon engines, etc.

Spoiler: Legacies

Show

Veteran of the Scouring give It Will Not Die to a tank or walker, for the same price as four meltaguns on a walker, +5 more points on a tank. Double the price on Super Heavies. IWND is pretty good to have, though it is pricey.

War Within the Eye Adamantium Will and Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines) on tanks, walkers get Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) instead. Costs 2 meltaguns, double for superheavies. Adamantium Will is pretty pointless given the rarity of witchfires, PE and H are nice, but being CSM specific is pretty painful.

Maelstrom Raider Outflank and Fear for 2.5 meltaguns, double for superheavies. Outflank is pretty nice. It's a bit expensive but not too bad. Probably best used on a transport.

Death of Kasyr Lutien 1.5 meltaguns, 2.5 on superheavies. For every hull point the vehicle has left friendly psykers within 12" can reroll 1d6 when manifesting malefic powers. On a failed test the vehicle takes a penetrating hit. This is cheap, but we can reroll all out dice for no penalty with psyhic familiars, so unless you like allied daemons summoning more daemons for you this is pretty pointless.

Blood of Mackan PE (Blood Angels) Doesn't treat barricades or Defence Lines as dangerous terrain. Destroyer Blades have an AP equal to remaining hull points, 7+ is AP-. Tanks only. 3 meltaguns, 4 on superheavies. Not terrible on a vehicle you expect to do a lot of tank shocking with, since even a rhino gets S5 AP3 hits with it's destroyer blades when unharmed, but it's pretty pricey for that. Though the idea of running over terminators and ignoring their armour is pretty funny.

Siege of Vraks ignores dangerous terrain on a 4+. Rerolls to hit against enemies in Defense Lines. 1.5 meltaguns, 2 for superheavies. Cheap, but dozer blades are a thing, so why bother?

Fourth Quadrant Uprising 1.5 meltaguns, 3 for superheavies. Cultists within 12" are fearless, and when reduced to 1 hull point the vehicle has a 4++. This is great, you get fearless bubblewrap without needing a babysitting apostle, you get a small boost defence and it's cheap. Slap this on something that doesn't want to move much and likes shooting and hang out near objectives with 70 or so meathsields.

Badab Uprising Tanks get Fear and PE (Space Marines), walkers get Rage and Hatred (Chaos Space Marines), which may be a typo. Super heavy tanks can get this but super heavy walkers can't. 2 meltaguns, 3 for super heavies.

Scourge of the Greenskin tanks only. Costs 2.5 meltaguns. Move an extra D6" when tank shocking and get PE (Orks). Not that good for it's cost, though if combined with Blood of Mackan you could have a little fun playing Grand Theft Auto but running over Orks instead of prostitutes.

Last of the Forge transports only. 2 meltaguns. Ignore Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken on a 4+, get PE (Tyranids), any unit transported in the vehicle has Hatred (Tyranids). If you absolutely know you're going to be fighting 'nids the ability to hand out free Hatred to your army by cycling them through a rhino isn't bad, but otherwise this is pretty lackluster.

Screams of Lugganath 2.5 meltaguns, 3 for superheavies. Fear against Eldar, plus dirgecasters on the vehicle have 12" range. If you plan to have anything in your army assaulting take this on a land raider and stick it straight into the center of your assault force. A 12 inch radius around a land raider is a big area in which to deny Overwatch.

Perdus Rift Anomaly PE (Tau), you can reroll to seize the initiative, or force the enemy to reroll their seize attempt. 2 meltaguns, 4 on a superheavy. This is actually pretty nice if you want to go first, not too pricey, I'd consider this the sort of thing you might as well take.

1st War of Armageddon Daemons of Khorne within 6" get +1 to their invulnerable saves, to a maximum of 2++. Fear against Astra Militarum. 2.5 meltaguns, 3.5 on superheavies.

These next five all give Daemonic Possession and Fear in addition to their other effects.

Vessel of Akashneth of the Boiling Brass any friendly unit with an icon of wrath in 12" counts as causing an extra D3 wounds for combat resolution. 1.5 meltaguns, 2 on a superheavy. If a unit with an icon of wrath isn't winning combats outright then this probably isn't going to help, not to mention how common ATSKNF and Fearless are.

Vessel of Shyak the Seeker enemy units with the Icon of Excess within 12" roll an extra D6 and discard the lowest when making any leadership test. Costs the same as above. Man is this bad, not only do you need to be fighting CSM, they need to be Slaaneshi CSM, and it affects leadership tests in an army dripping with Fearless.

Vessel of Dhornurgh the Reborn friendly units with the Icon of Despair in 6" have Gets Hot and Rending in close combat. Costs 1 meltagun, 1.5 on superheavies. This one is... weird to say the least. It's not too bad if you're doing it to plague marines I guess since they can easily save the Gets Hot wounds, and you should have a transport near them anyway for dirge caster purposes when you assault. If you're into nurgle themed assault armies you might as well take it.

Vessel of Tzenahk the Occluder roll a D6 before the game begins. On a 1 the vehicle will give up an extra VP when killed. On a 2+ it gives it's owner D3 VPs if it survives the game. 1 meltagun, 2 on superheavies. This is actually really nice, a lot of games are won or lost by just a few VPs, so the chance of getting D3 bonus ones just for keeping a vehicle alive is rather appealing.

Auloth the Priomordial Iterator Pinning on all weapons, friendlies with the Icon of Wrath in 12" get Fear and FnP (Apparently this is a typo, and it's meant to be Icons of Vengeance, but I can't find an official errata so Wrath it is.) Costs a ton at 4 meltaguns, 8 on a superheavy, but mixed with the Screams of Lugganath this gives you the single greatest buff to khornate assault armies short of giving them all jump packs and lightning claws. If you've got the points to spare, a manic grin on your face and a bloodthirsty glint in your eye then this may be what you've been looking for.

There's also a full list for Renegades and Heretics, which I can best sum up as 'Do you like the idea of guard but feel like they just can't field enough models? Then R&Hs might be for you!'

It seems to be set up to allow for armies ranging from mutant hordes, to chaos Militarum Tempestus (Anarchus Tempestus?), dark mechanicum skitarii, rogue psykers everywhere (though their psykers are pretty pathetic), renegade guard (most flavours of guard), chaos fanatics, Chenkov style wave armies and more.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the wording of the legacies specifies that only Codex: Chaos Space Marines and it's supplements can take them, so no Daemonkin tanks buffing stuff. Though that may get errata'd at some point.

[Yaktan]

Yea, and deploying her with a stealth suit kind of feels like a waste of her abilities.

I guess I should be ok on fusion with the piranhas, but I also wish I could have gotten a full 5 of them in so more fusion from the crisis team isn't the worst idea I suppose. Are missile pods better? I admit I might still be thinking of the good old days when they were str 10 on the railguns.

In general the missile pods are better, and with lots of fusion blasters you can cover the stuff the rifles would be good at hitting. Also, with the smart missiles plus the missile pods, the Broadsides can put out quite respectable dakka. They get enough twin-linked shots to threaten fliers without skyfire, and if you give them interceptor, they give a nice anti-deepstrike bubble.

[Dragonus45]

In general the missile pods are better, and with lots of fusion blasters you can cover the stuff the rifles would be good at hitting. Also, with the smart missiles plus the missile pods, the Broadsides can put out quite respectable dakka. They get enough twin-linked shots to threaten fliers without skyfire, and if you give them interceptor, they give a nice anti-deepstrike bubble.

Does that mean I should switch out the skyfire for interceptor then?

[LordDavenport]

interceptor is significantly cheaper.

Also do you have anything against splitting up the piranhas? You have the slots and that would make them more of a pain to kill. Also... why even bother with disruption pods? piranhas explode if you look at them funny, and die to infantry guns. Pods make sense when they make up far less then 25% of a models cost.

Also... those suits... mixed weapon crisis suits make me want to vomit. I know the box doesn't come with enough bits... but still. Something is not going to be firing optimally every round, and you are being forced to waste 10 points on target locks. Better to split them for fun deepstrikeing...

Wait... Wait... this is an army with shadow sun. Why is that riptide not carrying a heavy burst cannon? With the command drone, the cannon can do really silly things.

[Dragonus45]

interceptor is significantly cheaper.

Also do you have anything against splitting up the piranhas? You have the slots and that would make them more of a pain to kill. Also... why even bother with disruption pods? piranhas explode if you look at them funny, and die to infantry guns. Pods make sense when they make up far less then 25% of a models cost.

Also... those suits... mixed weapon crisis suits make me want to vomit. I know the box doesn't come with enough bits... but still. Something is not going to be firing optimally every round, and you are being forced to waste 10 points on target locks. Better to split them for fun deepstrikeing...

Wait... Wait... this is an army with shadow sun. Why is that riptide not carrying a heavy burst cannon? With the command drone, the cannon can do really silly things.

TL;DR Because I'm bad. Still I'm looking it over and making some changes now.

[Requizen]

Hm, is there a way to make a fluffy but still semi decent army based off Renegade but not Heretic chapters like the Night Lords or Crimson Slaughter? The type of chapters that haven't fallen to Chaos but are still technically "Chaos Space Marines", so eschewing any Daemon type units or other "corrupt" units? Or would it be better to play them as Space Marines and just make them look all Renegade-y?

[Grim Portent]

Hm, is there a way to make a fluffy but still semi decent army based off Renegade but not Heretic chapters like the Night Lords or Crimson Slaughter? The type of chapters that haven't fallen to Chaos but are still technically "Chaos Space Marines", so eschewing any Daemon type units or other "corrupt" units? Or would it be better to play them as Space Marines and just make them look all Renegade-y?

The Crimson Slaughter are full blown heretics (they make daemon engines and live in a daemon infested space hulk), as are many of the Night Lords nowadays (mutation and madness run rampant, they just don't worship the gods they serve). But that's beside the point.

You can build an army of CSM with no chaos/corrupt stuff in it and it's not too crippling.

Chaos Lords and Sorcerers are fine.
Chaos Space Marines and Cultists are fine.
Chosen, Terminators and Helbrutes are fine.
Bikers and Raptors are fine.
Predators, Rhinos, Vindicators, Land Raiders and Havocs are fine.

Warpsmiths and Dark Apostles are debatable, but renegades have Chaplains and Tech-Marines so I guess they fit as well.

Most of the wargear you can take is fine, the Icon of Vengeance fits fine thematically as a chapter icon/banner. All you really miss out on in the normal codex is the marks/most icons, daemon engines and the chaos spawn.

So an army lead by a Sorcerer (Librarian), Cultists (Chapter Serfs) for troops, throw in lots of Raptors (Assault Marines), a Vindicator or two and Havocs (Devastators) for anti-tank/anti-flier and you've got an army with no chaos/corrupt stuff that isn't that bad. Could be a lot better with some zombies, Plague Marines, Berzerkers and 'Drakes, but it's not a complete failure in a casual setting.

Most of the stuff you could take from the C:SM army wouldn't really fit the fluff of renegades any better than Maulerfiends do anyway.

'We're on the run from the Imperium and raiding for supplies, time to set up the Thunderfire Cannnons and call for some Artillery.'

If you're willing to use Forge World you can patch up a few holes in the codex with the less daemony stuff from the IA books.

[JNAProductions]

Can I get some advice on a CSM/Daemon Ally list?

Spoiler: Chaos Space Marine CAD

Show

255-Chaos Sorcer
-Mastery Level 3
-Veterans of the Long War
-Mark of Nurgle
-Blight Grenades
-Melta Bombs
-Chaos Bike
-Sigil of Corruption
-Gift of Mutation
-Spell Familiar
-Black Mace
230-Typhus
90-20 Plague Zombies
170-Heldrake
-Baleflamer
160-5 Thousand Sons
-Gift of Mutation
160-5 Thousand Sons
-Gift of Mutation
1065

Spoiler: Daemon Allied Detachment

Show

345-Nurgle Daemon Prince
-Wings
-Warp Forged Armour
-Mastery Level 3
-Eternal Blade
-Balesword
45-3 Nurglings
45-3 Nurglings
435

[Drasius]

Imperial Knights apparently come with the rules for each variant in the box; http://boards.4chan.org/tg/thread/39...codex-which-is

425 for the Crusader before upgrades or relics really puts a dampner on my plans to build one, as I'm not sure that super assault cannon is worth 50 points and the loss of Str D attacks in CC (though it is still str 10, and AP2 assuming they've still got smash).

Perhaps 2 Paladins, 3 Errants and 4 autocannons between them would make a passable 2k army, but I'm not sure I see a place for the Crusader in an all knight army, unless you're also including a Gallant since he's only 325, balancing out the extra 50 the Crusader costs. Given that the way I would run a crusader is battlecannon, gatling cannon/flamer & krak missiles, that takes him to 470 points, only 30 off having Gerantius instead. Interesting times.

Can I get some advice on a CSM/Daemon Ally list?

Spoiler: Chaos Space Marine CAD

Show

255-Chaos Sorcer
-Mastery Level 3
-Veterans of the Long War
-Mark of Nurgle
-Blight Grenades
-Melta Bombs
-Chaos Bike
-Sigil of Corruption
-Gift of Mutation
-Spell Familiar
-Black Mace
230-Typhus
90-20 Plague Zombies
170-Heldrake
-Baleflamer
160-5 Thousand Sons
-Gift of Mutation
160-5 Thousand Sons
-Gift of Mutation
1065

Spoiler: Daemon Allied Detachment

Show

345-Nurgle Daemon Prince
-Wings
-Warp Forged Armour
-Mastery Level 3
-Eternal Blade
-Balesword
45-3 Nurglings
45-3 Nurglings
435

- Black mace is bad on anyone who's not a daemon prince since it's AP4 (unless you roll iron arm, which gives you smash so it becomes AP2, but with only 2 rolls on bio, that's not exxactly a sure thing).
- Mark of Nurgle is a waste on the sorceror since he's already T5 on the bike and this means you have to roll at least once on the nurgle chart instead of Bio or invis telepathy.
- You don't have anywhere for the sorceror to go either, other than the zombie unit, since he can't join the TSons as he has a different mark and he can't join the nurglings, since they've got daemonic instability.
- Waaaayyyy too much wargear on the sorceror. You should be looking at <200 points on the sorceror. Sorc, ML3, Familiar, Sigil, bike, maybe a mark or melta bombs to taste. Vets if you fight nids or marines a lot to help counter shadows or get re-rolls, respecitvely.
- Too many points wasted on Gift of mutation, you should be getting more troops.
- Thousand Sons are bad (one of the worst units in the codex), especially in small units, doubly so without a rhino and, if you care about fluff, shouldn't be in with an all nurgle army. A 10 man double plasma marine squad will kill more marines than the TSons will for the same cost.
- Unless those Zombies are 2 units of 10, you don't have a legal CAD, since the TSons aren't troops without a Mark Of Tzeentch Sorceror. If they are 2 units of 10, your points cost is wrong and 2 units of 10 zombies is also a waste.
- If you really want a prince, take him out of the CSM book instead of the sorceror. Use him with a Mark of Nurgle, wings, armour, spell familiar and 3 mastery levels and the black mace. 2+ jink even when gliding and the mace is now Str 8 AP2 at WS9 instead of Str 6 AP4 at WS 5. You're still going to roll biomancy because you still need Iron arm or endurance because you're only T5 and prone to getting doubled out.
- You don't have anywhere near enough bodies on the field for 1500. 20 zombies, 10 marines and 6 nurglings is going to get tabled by T3 (possibly T2, or even T1 if against Eldar Bike spam).

[LordDavenport]

yeah... if you are taking typhus go whole hog on the zambies. Normally the consideration is if typhus is worthwhile, but if you are already buying him get the full value out of him.

Also, bigger squads of cultists are more efficient because the sarge costs about 10 extra points in each squad. And a full 35 man horde only costs 150 points... not $$$ efficient, but oh so effective on the board. Takes more fire then people think to kill it, which is a life saver for holding objectives.

[Cheesegear]

Building on a Budget: Orks

Let's recap our rules for BoaB.
Rule #1; The goal is to get to 1850 as cheaply as possible, while
Rule #2; Not being bad.

Rule #2 says that deliberately taking units because they are expensive points-wise is not allowed. Because that's being bad. So, looks like we have to go with option b). We're Orks, so at worst, Rule #1 says 'as cheaply as possible'. So, semantics wins. Building a horde-army 'as cheaply as possible' is still going to end up stabbing the wallet. But, there's a way to fix that...Kind of. One of the cheapest models, in the short-term, is the Ork Stompa. You pay its price cost, and get 800 Points out of it. It's really, really good for it's price cost. Unfortunately, there are a lot of metas out there who have arbitrary rules which simply end up banning the Stompa as a matter of course. It's 800 Points, it's got 12 Hull Points, and for some, it's a scary model, so just ban it. Check with your meta's rules before you go and buy a Stompa, since spending a bunch of money on a model that you can't even use is the exact opposite of a good idea.

Spoiler: List Building Process

Show

Grukk Face-Rippa currently auctions for $45 AUD...Those out of print models, amirite? You want it simply because GW doesn't sell Warbosses with Power Klaws. So that's really annoying.
...But that's disingenuous. Let's assume you aren't willing to bleed your wallet for a plastic sprue just because it's out of print (although you probably should, they're only going to get more expensive, not less). But, getting on topic, the Warlord for any Ork army is a no-brainer. A Warboss. Always. The fact that they hand out a 3D6" Charge move to your entire army once per game is arguably one of the best tools in your arsenal.

Warboss - 104 Points
'Eavy Armour, Big Choppa, Bosspole, Cybork Body, Da Lucky Stikk

He doesn't even scratch 110, on 0.31 and that's pretty bad, but it's no worse than Tau. So that's something. What else can we use?

Big Mek - 115 Points
'Eavy Armour, Shokk Attack Gun, Cybork Body, Da Lucky Stikk

Higher points cost, sure, but also more expensive. Rocking at 0.35, and rules-wise, doesn't even grant Waaagh! Not the smartest of options. That said, one, good roll from the Shokk Attack Gun can pretty much win the game by itself. Anyway, those are the non-Unique options, and actually have fairly bad efficiency ratings. So let's just go straight to the most expensive model...

(0.18) Mad Dok Grotsnik - 160 Points

Wait...Why didn't we pick this guy first!? He's got 'Eavy Armour and a Cybork Body, and he brought a Power Klaw! He's very, very solid. Any unit he joins also gains better FNP, Rampage and Fearless! There's absolutely no reason not to take him, well...His Warlord Trait isn't strong, and he doesn't Waaagh! But, none of Grotsnik's abilities are tied to being the Warlord, while Waaagh!ing is. But, at those efficiency ratings, why not both? At no point in the Ork book is there going to be a better force multiplier than Grotsnik, and you must have a Warboss if you want to Waaagh!, which you do.

(0.32) (W) Warboss - 104 Points
'Eavy Armour, Big Choppa, Bosspole, Cybork Body, Da Lucky Stikk

(0.18) Mad Dok Grotsnik - 160 Points

Well, that was a long walk. But if I didn't explain the choices, then you wouldn't learn anything, would you? Besides, Troops is easy.

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

What's going on here, then? Am I intentionally inflating points costs? Shouldn't I not be doing that? Well...No. Pretty much every army in the game has their version of a Boltgun. When almost any unit in the game looks at your Orks, you broadly sweep your models back into the bucket. Even with upgrades, a Trukk still pushes a rating close to 1.00, and that's really bad. Sisters bad. There's no reason that you need to spending metal model money on plastic minis (unless the plastic mini is Grukk Face-Rippa, of course). So if you're not taking Trukks, you need 'Eavy Armour to not instantly die to Boltgun fire. Since you also happen to be 50% immune to Boltgun fire, you no longer need to be Melee to dodge bullets anymore. If you don't need to be in Melee, why not take Shootas? You still get 2 attacks base, 'cause you're Orks. You still have Furious Charge, 'cause you're Orks, and Shootas are Assault weapons. Why not take them? Although, a Heavy Flamer is going to kill all your Boyz no matter what you do. Anyway, we're ideally shooting for over 1500 Points, so that means bringing 4 Troops units.

Gretchin are close to 1.00 as well. Yes, they're cheap in price, but at 3 points per model, you don't really get anywhere close to completing your army, which means spending even more money.

Stompa
If you can afford one, and are able to use one, get one.

(0.21) Stompa; Grot Riggers - 800 Points

It's models like these that really showcase what BoaB is all about. In the short-term, Boyz are cheaper than a Stompa. Obviously, right? Long-term, you get far more points out of a Stompa than you do out of a box of Boyz. Anyway, it really doesn't need explaining. The Stompa is one of the best models in the entire game, and there's a very good reason why it's banned in a lot of places. But for you, it's a no-brainer. It's 0.21 per point - that's cheaper than most HQs!

Blowing our budget on a Stompa takes us to 1636 Points. That gives us around 200 Points left to build our Warboss' retinue unit. Remembering that Grotsnik also gives whatever Star Unit we want, FNP and Fearless (also remembering that the Stompa makes everything within 6" Fearless, too). We'd love to take a unit of Burna Boyz since they're an entire unit of Power Swords or an entire unit of Flamers, but the box is fairly expensive and the models inside are only 16 Points each, also remembering that our Warboss doesn't have a Power Klaw and we can't rely on Grotsnik for everything. So, let's pick up the kit that costs the same amount as a box of Boyz.

(0.21) Nobz (x5); x1 Kombi-Skorcha, x3 Power Klaws, 'Eavy Armour - 195 Points

Nobz and a Stompa actually cost the same. Who knew?

1831 Points. Hmm. First, we need to drop the Bosspole on the Warboss. Grotsnik is making him Fearless, we don't need the Bosspole. Drop another Bosspole off one of the Boyz squads, as standing next to the Stompa will make them Fearless anyway. That'll bring you to 1821. Which gives us room for

(0.92) Mek; Kustom Mega-Slugga - 25 Points

I know. 0.92. What am I even thinking? Well, I'm thinking that you simply need a Mek in your list, to ride inside the Stompa. Between Grot Riggers and Mek's Tools, you should be able to keep your Stompa up and running for a long time. Looking at our Warboss model, we also have room for one, last Twin-Linked Shoota.

Not a Stompa
But taking a Stompa makes list-building so easy! Ah well, I understand that people ban Stompas. And because I know that to begin with, I'd feel pretty bad if I didn't tell you how to BoaB without a Stompa, because you may have to.

(0.21) Nobz (x5); x1 Kombi-Skorcha, x3 Power Klaws, 'Eavy Armour - 195 Points

Well, that unit hasn't gone anywhere, at least. However, now that they're not being Transported in a Stompa, they're going to get shot up. However, having a core force consisting of four Troops units very easily splits into two groups of two units each, which is enough to start taking double CADs. Unfortunately for us, there isn't a Big Mek with Kustom Force Field anymore. Well, actually, there is, and it's actually found in the Meganobz kit. But, we'll need two boxes of them, otherwise you're wasting money, and besides, if you're not going to be Transported in a Stompa, you can't get much better than a 2+ Armour Save. So, let's ditch the Nobz unit, in favour of the following.

Big Mek; Mega Armour, Killsaw, Kustom Force Field - 135 Points
Meganobz (x5); x2 Kombi-Skorchas, x3 Killsaws - 230

0.44. Ouch. But, now our saves look like this; 2+, 5++ vs. Shooting, and FNP (5+). Not bad. Thankfully, we only need one of this unit. But our Warboss isn't in Mega Armour, and he's just a liability because of it. But, with Grotsnik and our new Big Mek, we have the HQ requirements to make two CADs, so we can drop the Warboss in favour of, you guessed it...

(0.27) (W) Ghazghkull Thraka - 225 Points

T5. Eternal Warrior. 2+ Save. 5+ FNP with Grotsnik. S10 Power Klaw. What is this guy, a Space Marine Chapter Master? Well...Yeah. Kind of. He's 225 Points, and he's only got 4 Wounds. It takes a really wussy meta to blanket ban all Lords of War, especially when Imperial Knights are in the game. If your meta bans all Lords of War, but doesn't ban Knights, you should probably think about causing a fuss. Because that's a massive double standard that you should not be okay with.

With our Star Unit out of the way, we need a way to blow Vehicles at range. We could rely on the Star Unit to get into Melee with any major Vehicle, but that's a really bad idea. And if we do have to rely on our Star Unit, wouldn't it be better if whatever Vehicle that they were trying to bust was at least softened up? Of course it would.

(0.72) Tankbustas (x5); x2 Bomb Squigs, Tankhammer, Boss Nob - 100 Points
(1.80) Deffkopta; Twin-Linked Rokkit Launcher - 30 Points

Yuck. Those options may be good, but they destroy your wallet. So if you're BoaB, you should absolutely stay away from them, regardless of how goo they may be. That said, Ork Deffkoptas liberally hang out on auction sites all the time (just like Grukk). If you can get a Deffkopta with a Rokkit at less than <$10, or <$30 for three, you should absolutely grab those deals if you're thinking about playing Orks in any serious fashion. But, auction sites are a scary place for some people, needing payment methods and delivery addresses on the internet (!), and sometimes the 'cost' may be slightly inflated by the fact that you may need to fix models or strip/repaint them. But that's up to you. BoaB assumes that you want to build your army as quickly as possible, so you can get playing big games, and waiting around a week or two for your delivery isn't conducive to that idea. But, if you're Orks, maybe you can spend that time painting some of your models? Let's keep going.

(0.56) Blitza-Bommer - 135 Points

Eh. It uses Bombs. Depending on how your opponent places his models and/or whether or not he moves forwards, you may not even be using those Bombs until Turn 3. Pass.

(2.17) - Mek Gun; Zzap Gun - 23 Points

*Vomit*
Next we look at the Battlewagon. Arguably the best gun on it is the Killcannon. S7 Ordnance. Even rolling double-6s, it still only Glances AV13. This really isn't getting us anywhere, is it? How 'bout we just go straight to the biggest thing we can find. Works for Land Raiders, doesn't it?

(0.38) Morkanaut; Kustom Force Field, Grot Riggers - 300 Points

Not bad. Not bad at all. It's not perfect. But nothing in the Ork Codex is going to be. If you advance the Morkanaut with the Meganobz, you can back one unit up with the other. Since the 'Naut also packs a Klaw of Gork (or possibly Mork). Or just send your entire army forwards in a wave and get stuck in like a real Ork, which you can do, because all of your units have a 4+ Save or better, you don't need to be sitting in cover, and with double Force Fields on the board, you can even get coverage into your Boyz squads against Heavy Flamers. But, after just spending 300 Points on a Morkanaut, where're we at?

1622 Points.

Damn. We can't even fit in a second Morkanaut with no upgrades. But that's okay, because what we also don't have, is any sort of way of dealing with Fliers.

(0.52) Dakkajet; x3 Twin-Linked Supa Shootas, Flyboss - 145 Points
(0.54) Lootas (x5); x1 Mek; Kustom Mega-Blasta - 75 Points

The Dakkajet wins by a margin. But since it does cost 145 Points, it's not like we can bring two of them.

That only took a long time because I had to build two army lists. One for real men, and one for wussies.

Spoiler: Stompa List

Show

(0.32) (W) Warboss - 102 Points
'Eavy Armour, Twin-Linked Shoota, Big Choppa, Cybork Body, Da Lucky Stikk

(0.92) Mek; Kustom Mega-Slugga - 25 Points
(0.18) Mad Dok Grotsnik - 160 Points

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.35) Boyz (x10) - 138 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw

(0.21) Nobz (x5); x1 Kombi-Skorcha, x3 Power Klaws, 'Eavy Armour - 195 Points

(0.21) Stompa; Grot Riggers - 800 Points

Total: 1849 Points

$482 AUD. Do you even know what that means!? 0.26! Don't tell me that a Stompa isn't cheap. You're wrong. Let's take a look at how much our other list costs to build...

Spoiler: Orks, CAD

Show

Orks, CAD
(Free) Big Mek; Mega Armour, Killsaw, Kustom Force Field - 135 Points
(0.18) Mad Dok Grotsnik - 160 Points

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.34) Boyz (x10) - 143 Points
x8 Shootas, 'Eavy Armour, Rokkit Launcha
Boss Nob; 'Eavy Armour, Power Klaw, Bosspole

(0.44) Meganobz (x5); x2 Kombi-Skorchas, x3 Killsaws - 230 Points

(0.52) Dakkajet; x3 Twin-Linked Supa Shootas, Flyboss - 145 Points

(0.38) Morkanaut; Kustom Force Field, Grot Riggers - 300 Points
(0.54) Lootas (x5); x1 Mek; Kustom Mega-Blasta - 75 Points

(0.27) (W) Ghazghkull Thraka - 225 Points

Total: 1842 Points.

If you wanted to, you could have the Lootas ride inside the Morkanaut, and have the Mek patch it up.

$675 AUD, or 0.36. That's right, kids! Exactly $5 less than it takes to build the cheapest Marines army (that isn't even that good).
Skew lower if your currency is worth more, skew higher if your currency is worth less, obviously.

If your meta blanket bans Lords of War and/or disallows doubling up Detachments for no good reason, you're in a lot of trouble if you want to play Orks - even if you don't want to save money! Just, in general. Orks really need to be allowed to build an army as written. Most restrictions that I've seen, end up screwing Orks in some fashion simply because of how their Codex operates and what slots all their best stuff is in.

Also, for the continuing Ork player; If you're trawling auction sites for models, make sure to be on the lookout for Grukk Face-Rippa, and Deffkoptas with Rokkits.

[Turalisj]

If it's any help, the Stompa list is around $300USD and the CAD is about $438USD.

[Cheesegear]

Actually, I botched it. Since each Ork model can only take one Relic at a time. Meaning...

Warboss - 127 Points
'Eavy Armour, Twin-Linked Shoota, Cybork Body, Da Finkin' Kap, Da Lucky Stikk
Headwoppa's Killchoppa

...is illegal. Should be...

Warboss - 102 Points
'Eavy Armour, Twin-Linked Shoota, Big Choppa, Cybork Body, Da Lucky Stikk

...That sucks. No Finkin' Kap, no Killchoppa. Lucky Stikk is easily the best Relic, so that's what stay. But that significantly depowers the Warboss, especially if you don't have a Grukk model with a Power Klaw, or are willing to 'waste' money on kitbashing. Normally, yes, I'd spend that 25 extra points on just giving the Warboss a Power Klaw and call it a day. But, yeah. It's not a model that exists. A Mek with a Mega-Slugga costs exactly 25 Points, doesn't take a slot, and can ride around in the Stompa.

[Tehnar]

So a question for the board, and upcoming Vassal games.

The solitaire comes with two weapon options. The Harlequins Caress and the Harlequins Kiss.

Kiss of Death: When a model EQUIPPED with a Harlequin's kiss makes it's close combat attacks, one of it's attacks will be a Kiss of Death...

The Harlequins Caress wording is the same as for a normal weapon, that is attacks with it have a chance to auto wound...

There appears to be some dispute on the forums on the issue if you can use both rules for the Kiss and the Caress during the same phase. My groups plays that you can, but I want to see what the playground has to say about it regarding upcoing Vassal games.

[Eldan]

I don't see why not.

[Cheesegear]

There appears to be some dispute on the forums on the issue if you can use both rules for the Kiss and the Caress during the same phase. My groups plays that you can, but I want to see what the playground has to say about it regarding upcoming Vassal games.

The way that Kiss of Death is worded, means that it happens even if you don't attack with the Harlequin's Kiss.

Are you equipped with a Harlequin's Kiss? Yes.
Are you making close combat attacks? Yes.

Are you making close combat attacks with the Harlequin's Kiss? Irrelevant. RAW, son!

However, making the Kiss of Death attack is not optional. Say, for example, it would be preferable to attack a Wraithknight with all Harlequin's Caress attacks, since a To Hit roll of '6' Wounds automatically, and at AP2. But, one of your attacks must be a Kiss of Death attack since 'one of its attacks will be a Kiss of Death Attack', so it's not optional. You have to Hit normally, and S6 only Wounds a Wraithknight on a '6', which is less preferable to the Harlequin's Caress. Especially after a Prescience.

[Manticoran]

So I have...

~60 Genestealers
1 Brood Lord(It's actually a Genestealer mixed with a Warrior because Brood Lord models weren't a thing when I made my big Genestealer)
1 Flyrant
1 Carnifex
3 Lictors
~60 ranged gaunts
~40 Hormagants
3 Zoanthropes
2 Biovores
~20 Warriors

The gaunts are mostly spinefist gaunts unfortunately, but the Flyrant/Carnifex/Warriors have magnetic arm attachments to give them whatever weapon bits they needed. What do people recommend I pick up to be able to make a mildly competitive list? From what I understand the Genestealers are basically useless currently?

[Closet_Skeleton]

Transports suck now, so that's one of the Tyranid's no1 annoyances that are less of an issue.

1 Brood Lord(It's actually a Genestealer mixed with a Warrior because Brood Lord models weren't a thing when I made my big Genestealer)

Brood Lords weren't a thing when I got my big Genestealer, but Patriarch models were still available from mail order (or at Gamesday in my case).

Now I have three though, a metal broodlord and a plastic one from Space Hulk.

[Manticoran]

Brood Lords weren't a thing when I got my big Genestealer, but Patriarch models were still available from mail order (or at Gamesday in my case).

Hah, the Forge World Patriarchs were so cool, but I never wanted to spend the money because I was a poor High School student.

Also Transports were not something I ever worried about unless they were also Skimmers. I remember the fact that nothing could hit Skimmers in my army except on a 6+ that could actually damage them was a massive pain in my butt that made me dread fighting Eldar or Tau.

[thedavo]

Seeing as we've got quite a few chaos players I thought I'd share some of the more interesting stuff from IA13: Chaos Gizmos and Gadgets.

First off is the Technomancer rules. A subset of the Infernal Relic rule, it states that if a Warpsmith, Malefic Sorcerer or Abaddon is embarked on a transport with Daemonic Possession the player doesn't need to roll for a model to be eaten. If they want it to happen it does, if they don't it doesn't. They also get to pick which model is eaten. This is really nice, since it makes Daemonic Possession something other than a terrible mistake on transports.

Even better though is the Legacies of Ruin, a bunch of unique upgrades that can be given to chaos vehicles to give some pretty good buffs. Each is once per army, but each vehicle can have as many as it wants. Daemonic vehicles of any kind can't have them, so no Daemonic Possession vehicles, daemon engines, etc.

Spoiler: Legacies

Show

Veteran of the Scouring give It Will Not Die to a tank or walker, for the same price as four meltaguns on a walker, +5 more points on a tank. Double the price on Super Heavies. IWND is pretty good to have, though it is pricey.

War Within the Eye Adamantium Will and Preferred Enemy (Chaos Space Marines) on tanks, walkers get Hatred (Chaos Space Marines) instead. Costs 2 meltaguns, double for superheavies. Adamantium Will is pretty pointless given the rarity of witchfires, PE and H are nice, but being CSM specific is pretty painful.

Maelstrom Raider Outflank and Fear for 2.5 meltaguns, double for superheavies. Outflank is pretty nice. It's a bit expensive but not too bad. Probably best used on a transport.

Death of Kasyr Lutien 1.5 meltaguns, 2.5 on superheavies. For every hull point the vehicle has left friendly psykers within 12" can reroll 1d6 when manifesting malefic powers. On a failed test the vehicle takes a penetrating hit. This is cheap, but we can reroll all out dice for no penalty with psyhic familiars, so unless you like allied daemons summoning more daemons for you this is pretty pointless.

Blood of Mackan PE (Blood Angels) Doesn't treat barricades or Defence Lines as dangerous terrain. Destroyer Blades have an AP equal to remaining hull points, 7+ is AP-. Tanks only. 3 meltaguns, 4 on superheavies. Not terrible on a vehicle you expect to do a lot of tank shocking with, since even a rhino gets S5 AP3 hits with it's destroyer blades when unharmed, but it's pretty pricey for that. Though the idea of running over terminators and ignoring their armour is pretty funny.

Siege of Vraks ignores dangerous terrain on a 4+. Rerolls to hit against enemies in Defense Lines. 1.5 meltaguns, 2 for superheavies. Cheap, but dozer blades are a thing, so why bother?

Fourth Quadrant Uprising 1.5 meltaguns, 3 for superheavies. Cultists within 12" are fearless, and when reduced to 1 hull point the vehicle has a 4++. This is great, you get fearless bubblewrap without needing a babysitting apostle, you get a small boost defence and it's cheap. Slap this on something that doesn't want to move much and likes shooting and hang out near objectives with 70 or so meathsields.

Badab Uprising Tanks get Fear and PE (Space Marines), walkers get Rage and Hatred (Chaos Space Marines), which may be a typo. Super heavy tanks can get this but super heavy walkers can't. 2 meltaguns, 3 for super heavies.

Scourge of the Greenskin tanks only. Costs 2.5 meltaguns. Move an extra D6" when tank shocking and get PE (Orks). Not that good for it's cost, though if combined with Blood of Mackan you could have a little fun playing Grand Theft Auto but running over Orks instead of prostitutes.

Last of the Forge transports only. 2 meltaguns. Ignore Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken on a 4+, get PE (Tyranids), any unit transported in the vehicle has Hatred (Tyranids). If you absolutely know you're going to be fighting 'nids the ability to hand out free Hatred to your army by cycling them through a rhino isn't bad, but otherwise this is pretty lackluster.

Screams of Lugganath 2.5 meltaguns, 3 for superheavies. Fear against Eldar, plus dirgecasters on the vehicle have 12" range. If you plan to have anything in your army assaulting take this on a land raider and stick it straight into the center of your assault force. A 12 inch radius around a land raider is a big area in which to deny Overwatch.

Perdus Rift Anomaly PE (Tau), you can reroll to seize the initiative, or force the enemy to reroll their seize attempt. 2 meltaguns, 4 on a superheavy. This is actually pretty nice if you want to go first, not too pricey, I'd consider this the sort of thing you might as well take.

1st War of Armageddon Daemons of Khorne within 6" get +1 to their invulnerable saves, to a maximum of 2++. Fear against Astra Militarum. 2.5 meltaguns, 3.5 on superheavies.

These next five all give Daemonic Possession and Fear in addition to their other effects.

Vessel of Akashneth of the Boiling Brass any friendly unit with an icon of wrath in 12" counts as causing an extra D3 wounds for combat resolution. 1.5 meltaguns, 2 on a superheavy. If a unit with an icon of wrath isn't winning combats outright then this probably isn't going to help, not to mention how common ATSKNF and Fearless are.

Vessel of Shyak the Seeker enemy units with the Icon of Excess within 12" roll an extra D6 and discard the lowest when making any leadership test. Costs the same as above. Man is this bad, not only do you need to be fighting CSM, they need to be Slaaneshi CSM, and it affects leadership tests in an army dripping with Fearless.

Vessel of Dhornurgh the Reborn friendly units with the Icon of Despair in 6" have Gets Hot and Rending in close combat. Costs 1 meltagun, 1.5 on superheavies. This one is... weird to say the least. It's not too bad if you're doing it to plague marines I guess since they can easily save the Gets Hot wounds, and you should have a transport near them anyway for dirge caster purposes when you assault. If you're into nurgle themed assault armies you might as well take it.

Vessel of Tzenahk the Occluder roll a D6 before the game begins. On a 1 the vehicle will give up an extra VP when killed. On a 2+ it gives it's owner D3 VPs if it survives the game. 1 meltagun, 2 on superheavies. This is actually really nice, a lot of games are won or lost by just a few VPs, so the chance of getting D3 bonus ones just for keeping a vehicle alive is rather appealing.

Auloth the Priomordial Iterator Pinning on all weapons, friendlies with the Icon of Wrath in 12" get Fear and FnP (Apparently this is a typo, and it's meant to be Icons of Vengeance, but I can't find an official errata so Wrath it is.) Costs a ton at 4 meltaguns, 8 on a superheavy, but mixed with the Screams of Lugganath this gives you the single greatest buff to khornate assault armies short of giving them all jump packs and lightning claws. If you've got the points to spare, a manic grin on your face and a bloodthirsty glint in your eye then this may be what you've been looking for.

There's also a full list for Renegades and Heretics, which I can best sum up as 'Do you like the idea of guard but feel like they just can't field enough models? Then R&Hs might be for you!'

It seems to be set up to allow for armies ranging from mutant hordes, to chaos Militarum Tempestus (Anarchus Tempestus?), dark mechanicum skitarii, rogue psykers everywhere (though their psykers are pretty pathetic), renegade guard (most flavours of guard), chaos fanatics, Chenkov style wave armies and more.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the wording of the legacies specifies that only Codex: Chaos Space Marines and it's supplements can take them, so no Daemonkin tanks buffing stuff. Though that may get errata'd at some point.

I read somewhere that the stuff that can be used is as follows, after someone emailed FW:

Brass Scorpion
An'ggrath (as long as it's a big enough game)
Daemon Titan (Warhound & Reaver) dedicated to Khorne
Uraka
Blood Slaughterers
Decimator dedicated to Khorne
Ferrum Infernus dedicated to Khorne

[Requizen]

I read somewhere that the stuff that can be used is as follows, after someone emailed FW:

Brass Scorpion
An'ggrath (as long as it's a big enough game)
Daemon Titan (Warhound & Reaver) dedicated to Khorne
Uraka
Blood Slaughterers
Decimator dedicated to Khorne
Ferrum Infernus dedicated to Khorne

It'd be nice if they made that publicly known instead... frickin FW is lazy sometimes.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Hah, the Forge World Patriarchs were so cool, but I never wanted to spend the money because I was a poor High School student.

Forge World never made a Patriarch as far as I know. My one was from some classics range (its a early 2nd ed or 1st ed model). Probably cost me half as much or less than a modern Broodlord.

Of course now all the ones on Ebay are over £30 but who knows if that's what anyone is actually going to pay for one.