Erfworld 65, Page 59

[sihnfahl]

We know that Jillian's gwiffon was airborne while off-turn, and some of the Archons, gwiffons, and other flyers were airborne at night. Presumably flyers generally can hover while off-turn.

In all those cases you cited, however, they were over land hexes.
Over-water rules may be different.

[teratorn]

Which would have eaten up move Parson could have used to assault the column.

??? They're not there, so in fact that's what Parson did. Why risk dwagons for three or four extra siege when you can finish them next turn?

And where do you get that 7 to 8 move value?

I suppose the elves can be carried. At least that's what I would do to pick units scattered around the column.

And nothing to do with the wounded dwagons? He protected 19 wounded dwagons. They're his heavy hitters. They go down, he loses a significant offensive force.

The fact that they are not there means they are out of reach, and out of harms way. He would not lose them.

But, we don't know how end of turn over water works for dwagons. "Okay, I'll end my turn over this water hex!" "Okay! Your fliers tire from trying to stay aloft overnight, splash into the water, and drown from fatigue." "Boop."

As SteveMB pointed out, Archons and gwiffons stay in the air at night. Some dwagons in #35 keep flying at night. Some perch but most are in the air. Besides, dwagons may float.

[Wender]

Actually, it could matter. Unless something prohibits Ansom's fliers from attacking into the city itself, Ansom can hoist Parson on his own petard by making massive, warlord-lead air raids into GK. The more I think about this, the more I think whittling down Ansom's fliers should be Parson's next goal after eliminating the siege.

There's not much to whittle down, given that most of Ansom's air power is concentrated in Jillian, the Archons, and 5 elite gwiffons. One could argue that Jillian is already 'whittled down,' although she's still dangerous when given a direct order.

The problem is that a direct air raid over GK will tempt GK to "go nuclear" and send the whole fleet of dwagons against the invaders. That will weaken GK, but it will wipe out Ansom's air capability entirely (except for the bats) and leave him with no effective answer for whatever dwagons remain. The only reason I could see Ansom doing that would be to distract the dwagons (and Parson) for a last push through the tunnels into GK itself. That would certainly make for a climactic battle, and for that reason we'd only see it if both tacticians had no choice but to launch a direct confrontation of strength against strength.

Ansom and Vinnie could bolster the flyers, but they would only do that out of desperation. Actually, if they did that, it might be because they've decided to use the offensive through the tunnels as a feint after all and throw everything at an attempt to take GK from the air... which could very easily lure Stanley himself out to the battle, and Wanda, and possibly even Parson. Talk about climactic.

[ChowGuy]

That's precisely what I was thinking of. Spend a few turns surgically hitting GK's fliers, then archers, using your healers to bring your own fliers back up to full health so they're not vulnerable to counter-attack on GK's turn. Once GK has no air or anti-air left, then you can grind down the rest of the city at your convienience.

Surgical air attacks only work if you have something you can hit. Stanley's flyers are the Dwagons. If Ansom had air power that could hit them effectively at the moment, they would be doing so. As for any other units in GK, unlike Ansom's exposed column, they'll likely to be in fortified positions which Ansom does not looking forward to "prying them out of." Gwiffons may be decent fighters and possibly even ground attack units, but they're not bombers. I doubt even the Dwagon's could be classed in that role.

[sihnfahl]

They're not there, so in fact that's what Parson did. Why risk dwagons for three or four extra siege when you can finish them next turn?

First, it took almost half of Parson's units (19 of the 46, or about 40%) to take down a similar proportion of Ansom's siege units.
Second, with the expected dwagon losses on Ansom's turn (he was calculating at least 3 with his diversionary fort), Parson would want to maximize the initial assault on an unprepared opponent. Ansom's going to be prepared for an assault on the siege this turn.

I suppose the elves can be carried. At least that's what I would do to pick units scattered around the column.

Which means they could have significant range as a result.

The fact that they are not there means they are out of reach, and out of harms way. He would not lose them.

Given we don't know exactly how far Ansom's selected units could have reached with full move, that's a bit of an assumption. I'd err on the side of caution and say that the diversionary dwagon fort was to draw the units that could have reached Parson's wounded dwagons in the wrong direction and eat up enough move to make a redirection of force impossible.

As SteveMB pointed out, Archons and gwiffons stay in the air at night. Some dwagons in #35 keep flying at night. Some perch but most are in the air. Besides, dwagons may float.

May float. We don't know the over water rules. All those examples, as I pointed out, were over land hexes. I'd err on the side of caution and say the dwagons are not over a water hex ATM.

[BRC]

I think parson was relying on his ruse, which makes sense, considering that if Ansom saw through it, he wouldd essentially have to send his strike force to a random location and hope that thats where the dwagons were.

[teratorn]

There's not much to whittle down, given that most of Ansom's air power is concentrated in Jillian, the Archons, and 5 elite gwiffons.

There are at least 8 gwiffons and 8 unipegataurs. Those are the two stacks we see near Ansom when he goes to rescue Jillian. There may be more stacks.

[DGM]

There's not much to whittle down, given that most of Ansom's air power is concentrated in Jillian, the Archons, and 5 elite gwiffons.

No, that's just what Ansom can bring to bear THIS TURN. I'm talking about what happens once Ansom has his air force as a whole back.

The problem is that a direct air raid over GK will tempt GK to "go nuclear" and send the whole fleet of dwagons against the invaders. That will weaken GK, but it will wipe out Ansom's air capability entirely (except for the bats) and leave him with no effective answer for whatever dwagons remain.

Hardly. In Klog #5, paragraph #8 Parson indicates that even the air force by itself is too strong to take on. Even in an ambush. In a straight-up fight, the dwagons get wiped out without doing enough damage to turn the tide. And the dwagons are the strongest force GK has.

GK has no "go nuclear" option. Raw power is on the Alliance's side.

The only reason I could see Ansom doing that would be to distract the dwagons (and Parson) for a last push through the tunnels into GK itself.

The reason he would do it is because it gives him another road to victory. If he can't go through the walls with siege, he goes over them instead. He probably doesn't have enough air to take the whole city in a straight fight, but now that Parson has shown him how to hit-and-run effectively he could grind the defenders down over the course of a few turns.

[SteveMB]

The reason he would do it is because it gives him another road to victory. If he can't go through the walls with siege, he goes over them instead. He probably doesn't have enough air to take the whole city in a straight fight, but now that Parson has shown him how to hit-and-run effectively he could grind the defenders down over the course of a few turns.

What specifically would he hit that is as important to Stanley as the siege equipment is to him? About the only possibility I can see is Stanley himself and his key staff, but the Tower of Efdup is bound to be a rather hard target.

[DGM]

Surgical air attacks only work if you have something you can hit. Stanley's flyers are the Dwagons. If Ansom had air power that could hit them effectively at the moment, they would be doing so.

But I'm not talking about "at the moment," with Ansom's air force elsewhere. I'm talking about a few turns from now when the entire column - including the air - has massed at GK.

As for any other units in GK, unlike Ansom's exposed column, they'll likely to be in fortified positions which Ansom does not looking forward to "prying them out of." Gwiffons may be decent fighters and possibly even ground attack units, but they're not bombers. I doubt even the Dwagon's could be classed in that role.

The dwagons did pretty good in that role against the siege. And the orlies under Jillian managed the same against the twoll and 3 skeletons she fought back on page 10. Air units in general seem able to hit ground targets just fine.

[DGM]

What specifically would he hit that is as important to Stanley as the siege equipment is to him? About the only possibility I can see is Stanley himself and his key staff, but the Tower of Efdup is bound to be a rather hard target.

My thinking wasn't so much to hit critical targets as to wear the city as a whole down over a few turns. If I were Ansom in that situation, I would:

1) Hit the dwagons and other fliers first, to eliminate GK's only means of counter-attacking my fliers during their turn. They can't counter-attack by land, after all, as they would have to get through all my land units surrounding the city. Be sure to heal my air after each raid to keep vulnerability to a minimum while killing their fliers.

2) Once GK's fliers have been rubbed out, start hitting archers, casters and anything else that can hit air targets.

3) With 1 and 2 accomplished, nothing in the city can hurt my fliers unless I specifically target them. Now I can grind the rest of Stanley's forces down at my leisure, except for whatever's underground or in some kind of anti-air fortification.

[ChowGuy]

In a straight-up fight, the dwagons get wiped out

That's quite a leap of faith. I'll accept that in a straight-up fight, the Dwagons would have taken unacceptable loss, but that's not necessarily the same as total loss.

I don't think either side is willing to initiate that sort of fight prematurely, unless there is some major prize to be won. Stanley might have given the attack order if the Arkenpliers were there, but wouldn't do it just to croak the Gwiffons et al since even if he did, without a sufficient strength of Dwagons they're moot anyway.

It's a military truism that Air Power alone does take an objective. An air attack, by itself, isn't going to take GK but air cover plus ground defense of the (anticipated) siege together could prevent the Dwagons from breaking it if there are enough Dwagons left to do so. Destroy the seige pre-emptively though, and a strike against the air units may become a viable option.

[TiamatRoar]

I HIGHLY doubt a hit and run strategy would be very effective against dwagons. It worked for Parson in a game of Dwagon vs Siege because Dwagons overpower Siege. But if Ansom were to try that strategy with Gwiffons vs Dwagons, the dwagons will likely croak a few gwiffons and orlies before you can withdraw from the battle. And the whole point of the withdraw thing is to be able to conserve your units, which you can't do if the other side is capable of one-hit kills (or something close enough to one-hit kills that you'll have to withdraw before you can do enough noticeable damage)

Odds are semi-decent that the dwagons will get bonuses for fighting on the defensive side in their own capital city, too. This isn't completely assured, though. Some games give city defense bonuses to fliers, and some games don't.

[DGM]

That's quite a leap of faith. I'll accept that in a straight-up fight, the Dwagons would have taken unacceptable loss, but that's not necessarily the same as total loss.

Leap of faith? These are Parson's - and Ansom's - own words.

Again, I refer you to Klog #5, paragraph #8. Parson explicitly states that even though the Alliance's fliers are split off and isolated, they're still too strong to take on even with the advantage of an ambush.

And if you refer to page 21, you'll see that Ansom would actually prefer to be attacked outside the city on the grounds that it would be easier to deal with the enemy there than at GK itself. Ansom actually wants Stanley to go on the offensive.

Unless you're saying that neither Parson's nor Ansom's assessment of each side's raw power can be trusted, there's no "leap of faith" involved here. And if you are saying that their assessments can't be trusted, then what exactly do we go by?

It's a military truism that Air Power alone does take an objective.

I assume you mean "doesn't."

An air attack, by itself, isn't going to take GK

Maybe not, but if air power lets him knock out everything not hiding underground or indoors then afterwards he can just let most of his allies go and wait for new siege to arrive from home.

[teratorn]

First, it took almost half of Parson's units (19 of the 46, or about 40%) to take down a similar proportion of Ansom's siege units.

Next turn the three warlords will lead all the dwagons. And we don't know if the limiting factor was hitpoints or move.

I'm not sure about dwagons true move values. I suspect the B-dwagons were the ones sent to ambush Ansom at Webinar's positions (50 move from the hex). These were the ones Parson was anguished about not being able to move during the night. GK is much closer than Webinar's group so I suspect the A dwagons came from there.

[ChowGuy]

The dwagons did pretty good in that role against the siege. And the orlies under Jillian managed the same against the twoll and 3 skeletons she fought back on page 10. Air units in general seem able to hit ground targets just fine.

Did they really? Funny, I don't remember seeing any stone walls, breastworks, or bunkers in either of those encounters. Just some units marching along an open road, or camping in an open field. The Twoll even said "I hate ending turn in the open. Gobwin Knob is "the toughest defensive position in the known world." Your examples were not.

[DGM]

Did they really? Funny, I don't remember seeing any stone walls, breastworks, or bunkers in either of those encounters. Just some units marching along an open road, or camping in an open field. The Twoll even said "I hate ending turn in the open. Gobwin Knob is "the toughest defensive position in the known world." Your examples were not.

Oops. I somehow missed the "fortified" bit in the post I was responding to. My mistake, I apologize.

But that said, when I first brought this idea up I did qualify it with "Unless something prohibits Ansom's fliers from attacking into the city itself." A huge fortification bonus even against fliers would come under that heading. All my arguements on this matter were based on the premise that fliers could just fly over the walls and attack, end of story.

It basically comes down to whether or not there's any rule (or special ability at GK's disposal) inhibiting air attacks into a city, which is something that hasn't been revealed yet. If not, then what I've said holds up. If so, then - as I acknowledged from the beginning - what I've been saying is invalidated.

[Monan]

So what does Fw00t mean?

[SteveMB]

So what does Fw00t mean?

Something favorable, I hope.

[ChowGuy]

It basically comes down to whether or not there's any rule (or special ability at GK's disposal) inhibiting air attacks into a city, which is something that hasn't been revealed yet.

I'm sure they're possible, I just wonder if it would be worth the cost, particularly if your high-value targets are in or around the tower of Efdup. FWIW, I've seen speculation elsewhere that GK per se occupies a single hex, as in "Ansom will need six stacks to surround it." I doubt that's the case. Cities, especially capital cities, almost always occupy more then one hex, if only because you need more space to deploy all your units. I would expect more like 7-hexes, with the tower in the center and walls all around. That would mean incoming attacks on the tower would have to pass over heavily defended zones twice (Archers get their hitsies) and still have the Dwagons to deal with. Ansom says that Jillia's job of providing air cover to the seige will by the toughest part, so I don't think her forces are that overwhelming.

Interesting idea occurs to me though. Ansom was planning to send the Marbits into the tunnels "as a feint" so I'm guessing they are his best underground fighters. Taken with the fact that we saw Marbit miners on page 1, does that sort of make them the Dwarves of Erfworld? And if so, if Ansom loses the siege units he needs to go through the wall, can he employ them as sappers to go under and collapse it? Now that's a mechanic that you don't see much in this sort of game.

[Wender]

Leap of faith? These are Parson's - and Ansom's - own words.

Again, I refer you to Klog #5, paragraph #8. Parson explicitly states that even though the Alliance's fliers are split off and isolated, they're still too strong to take on even with the advantage of an ambush.

That doesn't mean his force would be wiped out. It means that the losses would be unnacceptable--which includes, but is not limited to, having his force wiped out. This early on there's no way Parson would commit to a costly attack. It's not even an option. That's how I read that. I'm not claiming that my reading is the one true reading, but I think it's perfectly reasonable.

[Note that I'm also assuming that apart from the elite gwiffons, most of Ansom's air force are no match for dwagons, except in highly favorable numbers. I'm factoring their inferior move ability into this assumption since Parson's dwagon tactics depend on their high move.]

And if you refer to page 21, you'll see that Ansom would actually prefer to be attacked outside the city on the grounds that it would be easier to deal with the enemy there than at GK itself. Ansom actually wants Stanley to go on the offensive.

With Stanley in charge, I'd prefer that too. Stanley's idea of an offensive is to bang his head into a wall until the stone cracks.

Unless you're saying that neither Parson's nor Ansom's assessment of each side's raw power can be trusted, there's no "leap of faith" involved here. And if you are saying that their assessments can't be trusted, then what exactly do we go by?

There are two variables here. The first is Parson. All of Ansom's confidence, and to date all of his tactics as well, stem from the fact, confirmed through long observation, that Stanley is a strategic and tactical imbecile with no leadership corps. As he is about to learn, painfully, Stanley has addressed that problem and how. Fortunately for Ansom, Vinnie appears to be quick enough on his feet to think outside the box as well, so the whole tactical landscape could change

The second is that we have our own fog of war. The authors have been smart about how much information they spoon out per strip, and there are a great many things we don't know, and a great many assumptions that we have to make simply to put a coherent hypothesis together.

One of the reasons I'm assuming that Ansom's air force isn't as strong as Stanley's is that if it were, he wouldn't even care about the siege. He'd surround the city, feint through the tunnels, strike from the air, and then open the gates to let the army mop up. The problem both sides have is that they have to commit their very strongest pieces to a full-on air assault, and whoever wins takes heavy losses, but whoever loses, loses the whole thing. It's a risk that's not worth taking until the endgame, and only then if there's no other option.

Remember also that I'm assuming that an air strike led by Ansom into GK would be met by everything GK could throw at it (including Wanda and Stanley himself), because if it's enough to take out even most of the dwagons then it's game over for Stanley. That would be a fight that he literally could not afford to lose. Not that I'm positive he'd win even then, but if it wouldn't be a contest than Ansom would be contemplating an air assault on GK rather than a ground/underground assault with air cover.

The bottom line is that neither side will engage in anything resembling a fair fight if there's any possible way they can avoid it.

[Scientivore]

So what does Fw00t mean?

"W00t" means the same as "Woohoo!" It's the traditional way to celebrate victories, accomplishments and acquisitions in MMORPGs. I'm not sure what the F is for...

[teratorn]

I've seen speculation elsewhere that GK per se occupies a single hex, as in "Ansom will need six stacks to surround it." I doubt that's the case. Cities, especially capital cities, almost always occupy more then one hex, if only because you need more space to deploy all your units. I would expect more like 7-hexes, with the tower in the center and walls all around.

I always thought of the citadel as one hex, and the city as having a radius from 3 to 6 times the length of the citadel (based on Ansom's battle speech and Parson drawing). If the city is one hex then Parson doesn't have to worry too much about the other guys turn since you can defend with everything you have. On the other hand if it's big then you need to think well on how to position your troops, in particular fliers.

[Xartyve]

OH NO! Not the Dwagons?!?! Vinny looks creepy as hell in the second to last panel. Put the fork down vinny.

[the_sid4]

Liked that suprise

[djharr]

6. Siege warfare against a fortress where all your food and water magically appear each morning is meaningless, the whole point of a siege is to deny your enemy access to resources, including food, wood, iron, etc. So the fact that sieges have in *our* past lasted 3 years or more... is moot. The intended effect of those sieges is completely negated here.

I wouldn't be too sure about that. The mechanics may contain rules for production, a city's production capacity being linked (as a likely example) to whatever outlying land, other resources, and trade routes that the city controls. The siege cuts the city off from its resources, the meals stop popping, and the hungry citizens start thinking about throwing Stanley over the walls.

Remember, it is not so much that Ansom wants to put Gobwin Knob under siege, as he needs his siege units. Why? He needs them to reduce the walls. As you pointed out, a normal protracted siege is pointless when the food pops up each morning. However, if you can destroy the walls of the city and take it over, you can then raze it or claim it as your own. What I am betting is that the game mechanics are such that as long as there is even one unit in the city, you cannot take it unless you destroy the walls.

[Renx]

Remember, it is not so much that Ansom wants to put Gobwin Knob under siege, as he needs his siege units. Why? He needs them to reduce the walls. As you pointed out, a normal protracted siege is pointless when the food pops up each morning. However, if you can destroy the walls of the city and take it over, you can then raze it or claim it as your own. What I am betting is that the game mechanics are such that as long as there is even one unit in the city, you cannot take it unless you destroy the walls.

Indeed. The basic rule about fortresses is: Always leave at least a single unit in every fortress. It'll annoy your opponent and force him to use valuable move.

//Edit: Also, *wants page 60!*

[lazyT]

A quick note as to why Parson didn't just max stack the dwagons.

Actually, I think with any warlords in the attack max stacking dwagons would be pointless. Page 12 and 55 show that with warlords its possible to selectively attack units. You put all your wounded dwagons in a single stack with your full strength ones, and they just kill the wounded ones and retreat, similar to Parsons tactics. The only way to defend them is to make sure that they cannot be directly attacked by a warlord led stack.

Which leads me into the next point. Ansom is now in the relative open, with 2 other faction leaders. A nice big fat target, that Parson probably couldnt hit unless he has warlords of his own. So ansom was banking on killing the warlords and dragons, severely crippling the dwagon force and denting any counter attack. Instead he gets misdirected. I doubt there is anyway that Parson would have left that back hex in range of a concerted assault and lose dwagons unless he thought it was well worth it. But he did, so he wanted to have Ansom attack. He was willing to sacrifice 3 dwagons, and my guess is because he thought that would give him a shot at ansom.

Now ansom is mounted, and probably has a lot of mobility. My guess is Vinny does too. The forest elf leader... hes probably nearly out. The only way out of this trap for Ansom is to get his butt to a more defensible position, which I think will leave the forest elf exposed. Well Vinny and the forest elf are probably going to have to talk him into it.

As for the wounded dwagons.. they are hiding somewhere. Vinny might be able to stumble on them, but its unlikely that Ansom has a hole lot in reserve to attack them. That would be a gamble on Parson's part, that Vinnie didnt find his weak stack in the open, and instead spent his scouts checking out the obvious defensive formation.

[danneloftyr]

right now I do think Parson will take some chances that could lead to losing everything. the odds are too stacked against him otherwise to win. I also think Anson will let his preconceived ideas lead him astray. Anyone can already tell that Ansom is a poor tactician but seems to be a decent diplomat. Parson's biggest problem may in the end be that all those other enemy cities are still out there and can produce units. Even if he is able to beat this enemy column how does he beat the next one....and the one after that, since he has only one city for production of replacements and is in no position to gain control of new cities.

Right now he's thinking about the little battle. He has no choice. But the larger war is going to be much harder to win than is Gobwin Knob

[gatitcz]

So what does Fw00t mean?

w00t! is leetspeak that originally meant "We owned [the] other team!" It became synonymous with celebration, and the f started getting thrown in for frickin' emphasis. Here you happen to get some archery onomatopoeia as a bonus. In Erfworld, though, shouldn't it be "bw00t?"