Steven UnIVerse: 4shadowing

[Draconi Redfir]

Nobody else was doing it. so i did!... Lazily!

This is the thread for discussing Rebecca Sugar's show about a conspiracy of sapient space rocks who take over America. Sneeple may be involved.

Keep Beach City weird!



Threads:

• Steven Universe
• Steven 2niverse: Made of Love
• Steven Univ3rse: The Great and Lovable Thread
• Steven UnIVerse: 4Shadowing

[Sholos]

For the alignment discussion, I'd say they are:

Pearl - LG
Rose, Garnet, Amythest - CG
Peridot - LN (slowly leaning towards Good)
Lapis - TN
Jasper, Rubies, Yellow Diamond - LE

Not really site where to put Bismuth. She's got her heart in the right plane, but pretty extreme in the methods she's okay with to get there.

[Admiral Squish]

New thread! Tagging for easy finding later.

Hmm... As for alignments, would we just want to do the gems, or everyone in beach city?

[DigoDragon]

Just watched Garnet's Universe for the first time and wow did I ever have fun with that one.

[Professor Gnoll]

New thread! Tagging for easy finding later.

Hmm... As for alignments, would we just want to do the gems, or everyone in beach city?

Placing the human characters in alignments is pretty difficult, but I suppose we could try.

For the alignment discussion, I'd say they are:

Pearl - LG
Rose, Garnet, Amythest - CG
Peridot - LN (slowly leaning towards Good)
Lapis - TN
Jasper, Rubies, Yellow Diamond - LE

Not really site where to put Bismuth. She's got her heart in the right plane, but pretty extreme in the methods she's okay with to get there.

I'd probably argue that Garnet is more NG than CG. She's fine with rules and order in its place, but not obsessed with them. She breaks certain rules but also tends to maintain others.

And Jasper isn't really Lawful past her serving of a Lawful leader. She pretty much starts instantly breaking the rules and taboos of her homeland (fusing with other gems) as soon as it serves her purpose, and then just runs around trying to kill/fuse with anyone she can, driven by revenge. Not particularly Lawful behaviour. And Bismuth is a tricky one, because in D&D it's not immoral to kill people. She's pretty definitely Chaotic, though.

I agree with the others, though.

[Keltest]

Ahhh, that new thread smell.

I must also concur that Garnet is more NG than CG. She isn't afraid to try new things and break out of the status quo, but she can only be pushed so far in that respect.

[Professor Gnoll]

Ahhh, that new thread smell.

I must also concur that Garnet is more NG than CG. She isn't afraid to try new things and break out of the status quo, but she can only be pushed so far in that respect.

Possibly because Sapphire seems more LG while Ruby tends towards the CG. Combine them, and what do you get?

[Sholos]

Hmm, on further thought, agreed that Jasper is more Chaotic than Lawful. I could see Garnet as NG; Greg is as well. Connie I think falls neatly into LG.

[Flickerdart]

Hmm, on further thought, agreed that Jasper is more Chaotic than Lawful. I could see Garnet as NG; Greg is as well. Connie I think falls neatly into LG.

"Fighting is my life" is pretty Lawful.

[Draconium]

"Fighting is my life" is pretty Lawful.

I disagree. The way I see it, "Fighting is my life" basically sums up 99.9% of all adventurers, regardless of alignment. And the other 0.1% are lying.

[Snowbluff]

I'd put Jasper at LN. She's just fighting for loyalty in the end. The worst "bad" stuff she did was really a misunderstanding, due to her technician and informant being separated from her.

[Ravian]

And Bismuth is a tricky one, because in D&D it's not immoral to kill people. She's pretty definitely Chaotic, though.

I'd argue that different standards of morality apply in this case. It's somewhat difficult to advocate for the permanent destruction of a being when it could be just as easily sealed up in a bubble until they can be dealt with more fairly.

Not to mention, I'd say that Bismuth is a perfect example of someone moving from Chaotic Good to Chaotic Neutral. She strongly dislikes the system that Homeworld created. That's fine given that Homeworld's system is not a good one, but she lets her hatred get the better of her in creating a weapon designed specifically to kill when other more merciful options present themselves.

In D&D she might still be considered Good (if somewhat fanatic), but I'd say in the context of Steven Universe she's fallen off the edge into Neutrality.

[Professor Gnoll]

I'd put Jasper at LN. She's just fighting for loyalty in the end. The worst "bad" stuff she did was really a misunderstanding, due to her technician and informant being separated from her.

I don't really see loyalty as a necessarily Lawful trait, though. Jasper is motivated by vengeance, and is willing to break important taboos and ignore any semblance of command structure to get there. Unlike Peridot, there's no effort to try and communicate with her home- she just wants to fight. That really seems Chaotic to me.

[Snowbluff]

I don't really see loyalty as a necessarily Lawful trait, though. Jasper is motivated by vengeance, and is willing to break important taboos and ignore any semblance of command structure to get there. Unlike Peridot, there's no effort to try and communicate with her home- she just wants to fight. That really seems Chaotic to me.

True, she did break orders to bring Rose back to homeworld (which didn't violate command structure; as the commander of the mission is was her call to make), but that might be a personal code rather than adherence to lawfulness.

[Keltest]

True, she did break orders to bring Rose back to homeworld (which didn't violate command structure; as the commander of the mission is was her call to make), but that might be a personal code rather than adherence to lawfulness.

The difference between adhering to a personal code and adhering to a chain of command is minimal as far as alignment is concerned, as long as youre consistent about it. I would peg Jasper as neutral because while she clearly respects Homeworld's authority, she is also using it to justify following her own agenda rather than, say, trying to report back and figure out what to do next.

[Phobia]

So this is something I've been thinking lately. You know how Steven Universe loves to reference anime? Well Alexandrite is pretty big and it's just three (four) gems, if they add in Steven they'd probably get something the size of the temple fusion. Add in three more like Lapis, Peridot, and Jasper (Bismuth?) and you'd probably get something even huger. How many gems would it take then to become as big as the galaxy?! Every gem Steven turns good?!

Add to this the theory that the silly relationship building episodes with the people of Beach City might end up being more than fun. Maybe he'll build up a strong personal relationship with each and every one of them and fuse with all of Beach City! O-O

[Professor Gnoll]

True, she did break orders to bring Rose back to homeworld (which didn't violate command structure; as the commander of the mission is was her call to make), but that might be a personal code rather than adherence to lawfulness.

She doesn't appear to have a personal code either, though. She's initially against fusion, then does it as soon as she thinks she might lose. She has no consistent sense of honour or rules. She just fights. I could see her as Neutral or Chaotic, but she's never indicated any Lawfulness beyond serving a Lawful master.

[Snowbluff]

She doesn't appear to have a personal code either, though. She's initially against fusion, then does it as soon as she thinks she might lose.

Point of order, she only disapproves of fusion due to societal pressure.

[Professor Gnoll]

Point of order, she only disapproves of fusion due to societal pressure.

But that's my point- she doesn't conform to societal rules or expectations for long, and doesn't appear to have a personal code. No exterior or interior law.

[Manga Shoggoth]

So this is something I've been thinking lately. You know how Steven Universe loves to reference anime? Well Alexandrite is pretty big and it's just three (four) gems, if they add in Steven they'd probably get something the size of the temple fusion. Add in three more like Lapis, Peridot, and Jasper (Bismuth?) and you'd probably get something even huger. How many gems would it take then to become as big as the galaxy?! Every gem Steven turns good?!

If that's what you want to find out, there's a cluster downstairs...

More seriously, there doesn't seem to be any correlation between the size of the fusion and the number of Gems in it:

• Both the Ruby fusions we have seen seem to be about the same size (3-way and 5-way, but admittedly homogeneous, which may play by different rules).
• Malachite and Alexandrite are about the same size (2-way vs 4-way).
• Jasper plus the corrupted Gem didn't seem to be any bigger than Jasper herself.

That said, the Cluster would probably be quite big...

On the question of alignments, surely the only alignments are face-centered cubic and body-centered cubic?

(Ah, those far off memories of my Materials Science lectures. Why can't I suppress them?)

[Fralex]

Bismuth is Lawful Good in the same way that Miko was Lawful Good.

Also, it is interesting to note that in the first Steven Universe book, the one that's a guide to the Gems, lists each one's alignment as (true to the show's philosophy that there are no true villains) either "Homeworld" or "the Crystal Gems." Although I'd have put Lapis as "neutral" rather than "Homeworld," but I guess the book came out before that was completely clear.

[Manga Shoggoth]

Although I'd have put Lapis as "neutral" rather than "Homeworld," but I guess the book came out before that was completely clear.

The book is not entirely inaccurate - Up until the time she got back to Homeworld she was maintaining an alignment (however wavering) to Homeworld, It isn't really 'till Season 3 that she adopts a more neutral stance (although arguably she started to flip around Jailbreak in S1, we just don't see enough of her in S2 to determine alignment).

[Tutorix]

Bismuth is Lawful Good in the same way that Miko was Lawful Good.

Interesting parallel. Both Miko and Bismuth were loyal to a cause. Both demonized the enemies of this cause (what Bismuth called "those upper crusts"), thus justifying taking any measures against them. Both ended up rebelling against their leaders. I'd put them both down as chaotic neutral in the end.

I'm not sure Jasper is as lawful as she claims to be. Her first loyalty is to a deceased individual, so that's not constraining her behavior. I think her fusing with Lapis would have been against Yellow Diamond's wishes. Her main characteristic is that she loves to fight, so I'd put her down as neutral evil.

Which is not to say she cannot be redeemed! Both Bismuth and Jasper will one day re-join society, I hope.

[Professor Gnoll]

Bismuth is Lawful Good in the same way that Miko was Lawful Good.

Not really quite the same, though. Both were fanatically devoted to destroying their enemies, yes, but Miko justified her actions as 'they're evil criminals' while Bismuth justified hers with 'they're dominating tyrants'. Miko opposed Evil (theoretically) while Bismuth opposed oppressive Law. Much more Chaotic than Lawful. She fought against the system, Miko fought for the system.

She also doesn't appear to have a strong personal code, or abide by anyone else's rules. She's loyal, yes, but loyalty isn't a Lawful trait. It's not even a Good trait.

[Silfir]

Jasper is Fighty Neutral. Well, probably with tendencies towards Fighty Evil.

What? You didn't know alignment had three dimensions? Good - Neutral - Evil, Lawful - Neutral - Chaotic, Peaceful - Neutral - Fighty? It's how you distinguish Goku from Gohan: Goku is Fighty Good, but Gohan is Peaceful Good.

Steven is probably Peaceful Good as well, but that likely doesn't hold true for Garnet, Amethyst and Pearl. Amethyst in particular is definitely Fighty; probably Fighty Chaotic Good or something. Garnet is a fusion of a Peaceful and a Fighty gem and so ends up Neutral, but in a fusion with Amethyst, another Fighty Gem, she becomes the very Fighty Sugilite. Pearl, meanwhile, is at least Neutral on that scale, if not Fighty herself, despite Pearls in general being Always Peaceful. Considering she sympathises with the medieval concept of being a knight for another's cause, which is a Lawful Fighty concept, that's what I'd peg her as.

Well, at least three dimensions I should say. In truth, alignment has as many dimensions as there are guiding character motivations. It just becomes progressively harder to draw charts the more you take into account.

I've long wondered why people stuck two only two dimensions of alignment, then complained about the alignment system being two-dimensional. Why not expand from there, and exponentially raise the potential for heated aligment debates?



(I've been thinking about it a while - Peaceful might not be the best name. It's simply the opposite of Fighty - a character that resents involving themselves in physical confrontation. Peaceful Evil would be a sneaky bastard who maneuvers others into doing the fighting for them and abhors the mere thought of getting involved themselves. Cowardly might be more accurate, but also has negative connotations that are ever so slightly unfair. A Peaceful Good - or Cowardly Good - character may still end up fighting if it's for the sake of doing the right thing.)

[MorgromTheOrc]

Not really quite the same, though. Both were fanatically devoted to destroying their enemies, yes, but Miko justified her actions as 'they're evil criminals' while Bismuth justified hers with 'they're dominating tyrants'. Miko opposed Evil (theoretically) while Bismuth opposed oppressive Law. Much more Chaotic than Lawful. She fought against the system, Miko fought for the system.

She also doesn't appear to have a strong personal code, or abide by anyone else's rules. She's loyal, yes, but loyalty isn't a Lawful trait. It's not even a Good trait.

As I see it this shouldn't be an argument between good and neutral, but neutral and evil. I don't remember even one notable "good" thing she did or said, the best was her neutral hatred of Homeworld's control over her. Even based on her actions at her introduction I would peg her at best neutral. But her willingness to kill her friends upon any resistance to her wishes screams chaotic evil to me. She never even expressed any actual care for others that would typically be viewed as good, only caring about those she fought alongside, and we all know that having friends does not make a villain a hero.

So overall I'm putting her down as chaotic neutral, leaning strongly towards evil.

EDIT: Talking on Bismuth, realized I didn't make that clear.

[Friv]

As I see it this shouldn't be an argument between good and neutral, but neutral and evil. I don't remember even one notable "good" thing she did or said, the best was her neutral hatred of Homeworld's control over her. Even based on her actions at her introduction I would peg her at best neutral. But her willingness to kill her friends upon any resistance to her wishes screams chaotic evil to me. She never even expressed any actual care for others that would typically be viewed as good, only caring about those she fought alongside, and we all know that having friends does not make a villain a hero.

So overall I'm putting her down as chaotic neutral, leaning strongly towards evil.

EDIT: Talking on Bismuth, realized I didn't make that clear.

What makes you think Bismuth is willing to kill her friends for any resistance?

The only person she tries to kill is Steven, and she tries to kill Steven because she decides that he really is Rose Quartz, and she's mocking Bismuth by pretending to be this kid, after having betrayed her, beaten her up, locked her in a box and then lied to everyone about what happened.

All of the evidence is that Rose hit first, the first time around. Bismuth was very confused and disoriented when she de-bubbled.

[endoperez]

A thought:

Bismuth, a crafter turned warrior, is an excellent shapeshifter and good at fighting with it. Amethyst, a warrior substandard at fighting but great at shape shifting, is having an identity crisis and looking at ways to improve herself.

If Bismuth returns,it might include her bonding with Amethyst, & Amethyst growing some way. Learning to morph while fighting, or even becoming a crafter.

Thoughts?

[LaZodiac]

A thought:

Bismuth, a crafter turned warrior, is an excellent shapeshifter and good at fighting with it. Amethyst, a warrior substandard at fighting but great at shape shifting, is having an identity crisis and looking at ways to improve herself.

If Bismuth returns,it might include her bonding with Amethyst, & Amethyst growing some way. Learning to morph while fighting, or even becoming a crafter.

Thoughts?

As I was reading this I was thinking more "Amethyst learns to build stuff" which is another thing I'd love to see. She's got all that junk, make some tech from it!

[Serenity]

Lawful Good: Pearl, although she can shade towards LN, as there have been times where her devotion to Rose's cause has outweighed her actual understanding of what the cause is; Sapphire; Kiki; Connie Maheswaran; probaly Sadie--some thoughtless actions regarding her relationship with Lars aside, she's generally by-the-book and compassionate.
Neutral Good: Steven Universe and Rose Quartz, the all-loving heroes; Stevonnie; Garnet, as a fusion between LG Sapphire and CG Ruby. That probably puts Opal here as well--and Alexandrite, technically, though she doesn't really have a seperate personality.
Chaotic Good: Amethyst, Ruby, Sardonyx, Smokey Quartz; Vidalia; Nanefua Pizza. Not sure if Greg goes here or at Neutral Good. The Cool Kids land in this vicinity, I think, though Jenny might trend more CN.
Lawful Neutral: Smol!Peridot; Dr. and Mr. Maheswaran; Peedee Fryman; Kofi Pizza; probably Mayor Dewey. Presumably the average alignment for Homeworld Pearls.
True Neutral: Lapis Lazuli; Mr. Fryman, Harold Smiley, Beach City adults at large.
Chaotic Neutral: Lion; Bismuth; Sugilite; Lars; Ronaldo Fryman; Corrupted Gems and Gem Shard Monsters
Lawful Evil: Original Flavor Peridot; Yellow Diamond and presumably the Great Diamond Authority as a whole; Yellow Pearl, who seems to take smug satisfaction in using her position to harangue other gems; the Ruby Squad by virtue of being dedicated (if dim-witted) soldiers of Homeworld.
Neutral Evil: Marty, Kevin
Chaotic Evil: Jasper; Malachite (for what time she existed as her own 'unit' in Super Watermelon Island); and, of course, ONION.