OOTS #1062 - The Discussion Thread

[hamishspence]

Would this have happened to Julio?

No?

Then clearly there's something that should have been done other than what was actually done.

Andi respected Julio - And didn't respect Bandanna, not even as Julio's proxy.

Sometimes you can do everything right and still fail because you haven't had time to build that well of respect.

Considering how little time has gone by since Bandanna had been put in charge, "cultivating a bodyguard" in the face of resentment from one senior officer, might have looked like an overreaction. Same with issuing punishment after one failure to use the title "Captain".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Wolf: the source for "the Captain is fully responsible for everything which happens under the Captain's command" is "every single professional maritime dude you will ever speak to, military or otherwise." In Rich's world there may be a completely different culture. In ours, Pendell has it nailed.

Interesting "argument" in light of hamishspence's actual evidence several posts above you that that is not, in fact, the case. Yeah, your word is not much without backing it up.

Would this have happened to Julio?

No?

Then clearly there's something that should have been done other than what was actually done.

Shifting the blame again, I see. Yeah, none of that is anything other than wishful thinking on your part. She did deal with Andi. A bodyguard would not have helped, given how surprised everyone was. And given that she had a job to do involving, you know, supervising a moving ship, your idea of spending her entire command looking at Andi is absurd.

I again refer you to my "who is to blame if you get robbed?". Your answer is the equivalent to "well, if I had been a master of kung-fu, I could've taken the thief down". It's wishful thinking at best, and victim blaming at worst.

Edit:

For a naval captain, at least in our world, there is no excuse for failure. None.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

So, the guy that got a promotion after the mutiny was, what, being punished with it?

Grey Wolf

[nocoolnamejim]

Andi respected Julio - And didn't respect Bandanna, not even as Julio's proxy.

Sometimes you can do everything right and still fail because you haven't had time to build that well of respect.

Considering how little time has gone by since Bandanna had been put in charge, "cultivating a bodyguard" in the face of resentment from one senior officer, might have looked like an overreaction. Same with issuing punishment after one failure to use the title "Captain".

I agree with a lot of your post, but I don't think Andi's insubordination is limited to a single time event of failing to call Bandana "Captain".

She's been bitching virtually non-stop, and out in the open rather than behind closed doors, ever since Bandana was put in charge. That's why I do feel that the biggest (maybe the only) failure of Bandana's leadership up until this point was not disciplining Andi publicly before this.

I understand the impulse that you have to allow time for a crew to get used to your leadership, but after a certain point you can't be everyone's best friend but rather need to make certain that everyone acknowledges your authority.

[pendell]

Sometimes you can do everything right and still fail because you haven't had time to build that well of respect.

True enough.

I think Bandana has the makings of a great captain. But these past events have stretched what she could ask of the crew of the Mechane past the breaking point, and now we're faced with a mutiny.

We'll see how it all plays out. But , if I were Julio Scoundrel, her next Captain assignment would be on a different airship (hopefully they'll capture one) with a new crew that only knows her as Scoundrel's trusted subordinate, and not as the (relative) baby.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

True enough.

I think Bandana has the makings of a great captain. But these past events have stretched what she could ask of the crew of the Mechane past the breaking point, and now we're faced with a mutiny.

One person. The entirety of the rest of the crew seems fine with Bandana's orders.

Let's not forget, this is a mutiny of one, and I highly doubt anyone would be calling Andi "captain" and following her orders if they were not currently under assault.

[happycrow]

EDIT! => Reply to GreyWolf: Sorry, but I've missed what rebuts that, unless it's the case of Bligh, which is a VERY peculiar affair to begin with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_captain

A sea captain (also called a captain or a ship's captain or a master or a shipmaster) is a high-grade licensed mariner in ultimate command of the merchant vessel.[1] The captain is responsible for its safe and efficient operation, including: ship's seaworthiness, ship's safety and security conditions, cargo operations, navigation, crew management and ensuring that the vessel complies with local and international laws, as well as company and flag state policies. All persons on board, particularly during navigation, including, public authorities, state authorities, officers and crew, other shipboard staff members, passengers, guests and pilots, are under the captain's authority and are his or her ultimate responsibility.

If HamishPence knows something I don't, I'm happy to be corrected.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Would this have happened to Julio?
No?
Then clearly there's something that should have been done other than what was actually done.

We need to analyze why. The answer, so far as I can see, is that Andi doesn't respect Bandana the way she respected Júlio. This leads to the natural question of if there was anything Bandana could have done to change that...so tell me what that is.

One thing she could have done immediately differently was to deal with Andi the first time she refused to address her as "Captain", rather than simply ignoring it.

I'm not convinced this would have made much of a difference.

Another thing she could have done was to cultivate a bodyguard on the crew.
And another thing she could do is not turn her back on the pirate who's armed with a wrench.

Bandana trusts her crew to some extent, and prioritizes making sure the battle goes as smoothly as she can over keeping an eye on the one and only crew member which disagrees with her course of action. Is this supposed to be a bad thing?

For a naval captain, at least in our world, there is no excuse for failure. None.

Remind me to stay the eff out of the navy, then. Stuff happens—and sometimes, there's nothing a captain can do to stop it.

...and given Andi's character until this point, was anyone even expecting a mid-combat mutiny?

From the looks of it, even Andi didn't expect it.

[aurilee]

Would this have happened to Julio?

No?

No, it wouldn't have happened to Julio.

Because Andi doesn't have a biased, resentful reaction to every single thing that Julio does. Bandana cannot help that. In fact, she has tried this entire time to be tolerant of Andi and attempt to earn her respect.

Julio doesn't keep Andi under control better because of some magical captain skills.

The only reason Andi is acting out against Bandana is because she refuses (through no fault of Bandana's) to accept that someone younger than her could be put in charge.

IIRC, Andi also had issues with Bandana as first mate.

So, you're right in that this wouldn't have happened with Julio in charge. But this is all on Andi, not Bandana.

Honestly, if anything Julio should have noticed that Andi had very little respect for Bandana and given Andi a talking-to about respecting B. before he left.

[Snails]

And the answer to your question is no: The test of a leader isn't that she ruthlessly punishes subordinates who don't toe the line. The test of a leader is that the crew follow the leader without the need for such measures. If you're having to hang subordinates for mutiny, a big part of the failure lies with you for failing to head it off.

The ancient Chinese philosophers enjoyed debating this issue.

On one extreme, the Confucians argued that authority of the ruler comes from manifest virtue -- that their superior wisdom will persuade that the best bet for peace, justice, and prosperity is their rule.

On the other extreme were the Legalists, who argued that authority is only maintained by unflinching and relentless enforcement of the law, by any means necessary.

IMO the problem here is both views are fatally naive. (Not that even these philosophers necessarily literally and truly believed either position. They did enjoy debating, however.)

Regarding Confucianism, without the explicit possibility of negative consequences for unreasonable behavior, debates about virtuous future paths can devolve into arguments where whining absent strong reasoning is encouraged.

Regarding Legalism, with a shared concept of justice guiding goals and actions, simply a set of rules encourages rampant "whatever I can get away with is fair" attitudes, which promotes myriad kinds of corruption.

IMHO, you are arguing too close to the Confucian extreme. Andi is a whiner who fails to demonstrate any kind of superior insight. The crew does not show any notable respect for her either -- her opinions are so great only in her mind.

Bandana's main error is she is trying too hard to be the leader that you want her to be, by hesitating too long to impose any negative consequences on Andi for her tawdry behavior. That is not to say I think you necessarily agree with Bandana's actions in detail. But Bandana does keep thinking that reasoning has anything to do with Andi's position, when that is probably incorrect.

[pendell]

I again refer you to my "who is to blame if you get robbed?". Your answer is the equivalent to "well, if I had been a master of kung-fu, I could've taken the thief down". It's wishful thinking at best, and victim blaming at worst.

Grey Wolf

First, as towards "citation needed", I am attempting to google "Command Responsibility" but am being blocked by filter at present. You may have more success.

Second ... the two cases are not comparable. An ordinary citizen has no special responsibility. A captain, however, is expected to assume leadership roles. That means being aware of the temper of the crew and the significant members thereof, and being able to proactively ensure their obedience , even enthusiasm.

A victim of a robbery is simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. A Captain who is on the receiving end of a mutiny by their own crew has had a leadership failure. Because preventing mutinies and so forth is right their in the job description, which it isn't in the case of an ordinary citizen.

But Bandana does keep thinking that reasoning has anything to do with Andi's position, when it is, at best, unclear is reason anything to do with Andi's positions.

We've reached the point where, if Andi allows Bandana to wake up, one of them has to go. It's simply gone too far. Pity Bandana didn't foresee this and remove Andi earlier. That would have been rough, but not as rough as losing either the captain or the chief engineer -- or both -- right in the middle of combat.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

EDIT! => Reply to GreyWolf: Sorry, but I've missed what rebuts that, unless it's the case of Bligh, which is a VERY peculiar affair to begin with.

Then present a different case, of a captain being punished for a mutiny under his command. This idea that a person, even in the military, is hold responsible by what AWOL soldiers do after they left this command is ridiculous in the face of it from where I stand, so if you can demonstrate it is not the case, by all means do so, but don't simply ask me to take your word for it.

GW

[Spellbreaker26]

The thing about "anything that happens on a ship is a captain's responsibility" - that seems to be referring to something else, "command responsibility". So if your crew murder and pillage, that's the captain's responsibility as well as theirs. A senior crew member not listening to their newly appointed captain and then taking her out during an assault is something entirely different.

[pendell]

Then present a different case, of a captain being punished for a mutiny under his command. This idea that a person, even in the military, is hold responsible by what AWOL soldiers do after they left this command is ridiculous in the face of it from where I stand, so if you can demonstrate it is not the case, by all means do so, but don't simply ask me to take your word for it.

GW

A Captain may not be punished at court-martial for it, but they're going to have a hard time making Admiral or continuing their climb up the greased pole of rank; that honor will go to those captains who somehow don't suffer mutinies .


Respectfully,

Brian P.

[hamishspence]

I agree with a lot of your post, but I don't think Andi's insubordination is limited to a single time event of failing to call Bandana "Captain".

Sure - but the argument that you have to crack down at the first hint of disrespect, is a bit problematic.

[nocoolnamejim]

The thing about "anything that happens on a ship is a captain's responsibility" - that seems to be referring to something else, "command responsibility". So if your crew murder and pillage, that's the captain's responsibility as well as theirs. A senior crew member not listening to their newly appointed captain and then taking her out during an assault is something entirely different.

I think you're speaking about two different things.

Andi taking Bandana out during the middle of an assault on the ship is all on Andi.

Bandana not dealing with the issue of Andi being insubordinate and mutinous prior to this incident is at least partially on her.

This is why I suspect that the two have a history of some kind together. Andi looked absolutely horrified at what she'd done to Bandana immediately after doing it. If she genuinely is fond of Bandana aside from the tensions of them having a different vision of who should be in charge and what they should currently be doing, then it would also explain why Bandana gave Andi so much slack prior to this when 95% of the posters in this thread probably saw some form of mutiny coming.

Bandana probably assumed that Andi would never go that far and therefore just let all the snide comments and complaints pass due to the back history between the two.

[happycrow]

Remind me to stay the eff out of the navy, then. Stuff happens—and sometimes, there's nothing a captain can do to stop it.

Yup. He maintains responsibility for not having foreseen circumstances which could have led to that and properly having had subordinates readied for it, however.

RL example: my father had command of a nuclear cruiser. An unexpected and strong storm came up and one of the bumpers (big rubber things designed to keep the ship from banging the dock) failed, resulting in a bumpitty. Not a big bumpitty, but one that shouldn't have happened. Now, my Dad was 400 miles away at a diplomatic function, but that goof-up kept him from promotion.

1) Was there anything he could have done to stop it, once it got to that point? No.
2) Should he have trained his executive officer to be sure that his crew inspected those bumpers when they made port? Yes, he should have, and that's all it took to end his career.

Bandana's a pretty good leader for the first time out of the chute, but Pendell is correct: it is on her that she didn't fix the issue ahead of time by addressing Andi contesting her authority.

[nocoolnamejim]

Sure - but the argument that you have to crack down at the first hint of disrespect, is a bit problematic.

Absolutely agree. Not at the first hint of disrespect. But there's been plenty of times since the first time to demonstrate a pattern that should have been addressed.

[aurilee]

A Captain may not be punished at court-martial for it, but they're going to have a hard time making Admiral or continuing their climb up the greased pole of rank; that honor will go to those captains who somehow don't suffer mutinies .


Respectfully,

Brian P.

That has way more to do with bias or personal feelings on behalf of the admiralty than actual rules and official responsibilities.

There's no rule that says "a mutinied captain cannot be promoted", that's just an admiral (who would have the same outlook as you in this case) saying "hmm...this guy's crew got cold feet and tried to mutiny him, he doesn't sound like a very good guy, so I'm going to block his promotion".

Saying that "action x committed against person y could cause person z to have a bias against person y" is not an argument for "action x is all person y's fault".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The thing about "anything that happens on a ship is a captain's responsibility" - that seems to be referring to something else, "command responsibility". So if your crew murder and pillage, that's the captain's responsibility as well as theirs. A senior crew member not listening to their newly appointed captain and then taking her out during an assault is something entirely different.

Precisely my point. The moment Andi decided that B wasn't her captain, and therefore her actions were performed with the intention of replacing or undermining her command, said actions stopped being B's responsibility. This whole argument of assigning blame to B depends way too much on expecting some kind of omniscient ability to predict precisely what would need to be done to appease Andi.

GW

[happycrow]

Then present a different case, of a captain being punished for a mutiny under his command. This idea that a person, even in the military, is hold responsible by what AWOL soldiers do after they left this command is ridiculous in the face of it from where I stand, so if you can demonstrate it is not the case, by all means do so, but don't simply ask me to take your word for it.

GW

GreyWolf: I'm sorry, but you've moved the goalposts with a very specific example I do not have anecdotes to address except what I've been repeatedly told by naval personnel, which is that the captain of (military vessel, oil tanker, cruise ship, whatever, has complete authority and complete responsibility for what happens on that vessel).

[happycrow]

Absolutely agree. Not at the first hint of disrespect. But there's been plenty of times since the first time to demonstrate a pattern that should have been addressed.

"At every turn" may not be technically accurate but would be a reasonably ballpark approximation, yes.

[aurilee]

I just want to make a general post about two things I think are getting conflated:

#1: Actual military protocol regarding what is and what isn't the captain's responsibility

#2: What a non-military captain's responsibility would be in this specific situation

For #1, yes, in the military basically everything is the captain's responsibility, and even if it's not official, it doesn't matter, everyone considers it the captain's responsibility

For #2, the military is a good example, but in this situation I have to agree with grey_wolf in that yes, the ship and the crew are obviously the captain's responsibility, and the captain is also responsible for the crew's morale. BUT, the moment a crew member stops considering the captain as The Captain, that crew member can't be under the captain's responsibility because that crew member doesn't acknowledge the captain's authority.

[hamishspence]

Using the "Andi is Miko 2.0" analogy presented earlier - Miko's growing instability was a bit more foreseeable than Andi's.

As such, I'm not sure that we can call Bandanna negligent for "not defusing Andi".

[nocoolnamejim]

A little off the topic of what we're presently addressing but...

Can't you just see Belkar being left behind and having to catch up to the ship ON FOOT in snow that's probably taller than he is and what he's likely to do the person responsible for leaving him behind?

Mwahahaha!

[happycrow]

Aurilee,

I'm not sure how

a) refuses the captain's authority
b) is part of the crew

can be squared. Can you unpack that a bit?

[Hamste]

Has she?

maybe if the repair shop gnome had been on the mechane she woulda got both engines running properly

i doubt andi would be making more money in a repair shop then on the mechane

Given the engines got electrocuted, burnt and frozen (with the cold doing 15d6 or similar in cold damage though after the quartering due to cold's ineffectiveness at destroying things on average the damage is not that much) as well as several pieces of the engines falling off from the lightning strike that seems unlikely. I mean the gnome could be a spell caster but otherwise I can't imagine how they could possibly repair both engines when the engines were missing pieces, suffered a massive power surge and had a fire next to the vital parts.

We don't know for sure how much the people working at the repair shop make beyond that they can charge 200k to repair completely knackered engines or how much Andi makes beyond 200gp not being enough to make her stop complaining. It is entirely plausible that she would make better money at a repair shop if Julio took advantage of how high his Charisma and diplomacy must bet but we have no definitive proof either way.

[Kish]

Yup. He maintains responsibility for not having foreseen circumstances which could have led to that and properly having had subordinates readied for it, however.

RL example: my father had command of a nuclear cruiser. An unexpected and strong storm came up and one of the bumpers (big rubber things designed to keep the ship from banging the dock) failed, resulting in a bumpitty. Not a big bumpitty, but one that shouldn't have happened. Now, my Dad was 400 miles away at a diplomatic function, but that goof-up kept him from promotion.

1) Was there anything he could have done to stop it, once it got to that point? No.
2) Should he have trained his executive officer to be sure that his crew inspected those bumpers when they made port? Yes, he should have, and that's all it took to end his career.

That sounds reasonable, for a Lawful system.

But Julio is Chaotic Neutral. The Mechane is run by his whims. Bandana had no protocols to memorize (and would probably have permanently disqualified herself from ever being appointed to command anything by Julio had she attempted that approach). "You can't get promoted, you didn't train your executive officer to avoid bumpitties" is fair, reasonably, orderly, and anything but dashing. It's endemic of the kind of ship of which people expect to be able to say "it'll be here at 8:03 AM one week from today," not the kind that never arrives sooner or later than the nick of time. It doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you look really cool doing it.

[Dr.Zero]

The greatest fail of Andi? Waiting up to now, when she should have taken the command well before, here, for example: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1055.html instead of keep whining that Bandana didn't listen to her.
Right now we don't even know how much they are away from the end of the pass, so indeed she could have made a big mistake.

With that premise...

so basically you think captains need to be perfect

the only way to have prevented Andi from exploding like that would have been to be perfect, Bandana listened to everything she said and gave reasons when she disagreed with it, she was fair and impartial her only flaw was that she was not capable of taking so much baseless critiscm in such an extreme situation

so either you think captains need to be perfect or you agree its not bandanas fault

Well, no, Bandana is at fault and that is to keep going deep inside an ambush that she and the ship weren't able to overcome easily. Which makes her very far from a perfect captain.
I don't think that should be overlooked so easily, because I doubt a captain worth her salt would order "Keep going!" (like the "Attack! Attack! Attack!" trope) when you have been clearly ambushed and you have not the slightest idea of what waits you ahead, when, turning immediately back, you could reach a safe place where the ambushers cannot attack you anymore.[*]

Let's face it, stopping and returning back as soon as the ambush was clear would have been the most reasonable decision.

Damn, you don't even need to be a captain to understand that, it is common sense: you are moving in a tight street, see thugs for the whole street, start getting punched heavily from the start, have no idea how strong the other ones would be moving forward, and instead of turning back to the police station just behind you (in this metaphor: a point before the pass, where the giants' attacks can't reach your ship) you push yourself deeply inside between them?

Now, seeing the casters and the latter assault, we know that even going back when they were still in the middle would have been very probably a good decision (personally I thought -and said in some post- that even when it was proposed by Andi, for the same reasons before; and Bandana decided differently without having any idea about what the ship might face moving forward).

So, perfect captain? Absolutely not.
Mutiny justified? Absolutely yes.
The mutiny was a good idea right now? No idea, but probably not, it depends on how far they are from the end of the pass and if these three giants were the last big obstacle (probably yes, since the overgrown smurfette said they are the strongest of their clan and the ship is well over half of the pass).
[*]Only exception: if the mission is so important that the ship and the crew are considered expendable to accomplish the mission. I know that "end of the world" et cetera. But I don't remember someone explaining that the 200gp were not for a ferry service but to fight to the death.

[happycrow]

That sounds reasonable, for a Lawful system.

But Julio is Chaotic Neutral. The Mechane is run by his whims. Bandana had no protocols to memorize (and would probably have permanently disqualified herself from ever being appointed to command anything by Julio had she attempted that approach).

That's by far the best counter-argument I've seen, Kish. *clap clap*
In which case, Bandana's real fault is "failure to drip Charisma at Julio levels." :)

[8BitNinja]

That's by far the best counter-argument I've seen, Kish. *clap clap*
In which case, Bandana's real fault is "failure to drip Charisma at Julio levels." :)

Charisma drips? At the paladin school, they taught us it was a solid.