Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[Blackhawk748]

Having played Kings of War, id have to say i prefer their system of "The only person rolling dice on your turn is you" Its kinda why a usual game of KoW is done in about 45 min to an hour.

For reference a "usual" game is between 1k and 2k points which is about the equivalent unit numbers of a 1500 to 2500 pt WHFB game.

[Grim Portent]

I'd rather just shift to a simultaneous turns system really.

No particular reason the players can't move at the same time, and it's not like we aren't used to resolving multiple simultaneous actions already in the game, shouldn't be hard to figure out how to do it with things like shooting and declaring assaults.

[Tehnar]

Id like tl see alternating turns per phase, so first both players finish the movement phase, the both players do psychic phase, and so forth...

But the current setup is ok as well, apart from a few annoyances. Why yes, your marines may be in my deployment zone first turn, and yes they can all fire their weapons without penalty. Why no, they are using drop pods, so they cant mishap.

[Renegade Paladin]

Open play here today. The Tyranid Flying Circus faced Deathwatch on a snow table, while the Imperial Guard ruthlessly suppressed a Genestealer Cults uprising on an urban board the next table over. Both tables played Purge the Alien, the first because they forgot their objective markers and cards and mine because it's what we rolled.

Spoiler: Pictures

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City mat. It's a new acquisition; need to build more ruins and buildings to go with it.








Alpine mat. Same story; had to use ALL THE PINE TREES because all our other outdoor terrain is spring/summer colored.









The Deathwatch assault a Tyranid infestation in the polar regions.





Meanwhile, in a bombed-out city, a brood of Genestealers finally masses to make their move.



But the Hammer of the Emperor will not take this treachery lying down!



The Genestealer cult moves to surround the dutiful servants of the Emperor, but the Guard's commander is too canny for that and surprises them in turn! (He got a 6 on the Cult Ambush table for a huge blob of guys and put them right outside the back of the ruin, but I Seized and introduced them to my Hellhound.)







Meanwhile, the Deathwatch and their Knight ally are sorely pressed by the Tyranids.



Back in the city, my armor nearly wiped out the Genestealers' entire flank, only to have them vanish into the shadows and reappear with more of their traitorous brethren! (His formation let him add d6 more guys to its units when they did their disappearing act; he pulled two squads and rolled a 5 and 6 for them.) All too late, though.

I got Slay the Warlord on turn 3 off of a lucky Overwatch shot with a meltagun. We had to call it after that (infiltrating his whole army took FOREVER) since the shop had been rented out for a birthday party and we had to clear off, but the Guard was solidly winning.

[Drasius]

I'd rather just shift to a simultaneous turns system really.

No particular reason the players can't move at the same time, and it's not like we aren't used to resolving multiple simultaneous actions already in the game, shouldn't be hard to figure out how to do it with things like shooting and declaring assaults.

Because moving closer or further away is a huge thing when you can be assaulted if you're foolish enough to move closer or be out of range to fire your guns if you move away. Visa versa for melee armies who don't want to get shredded by being in grav range, but can't move up without letting salvo weapons suddenly have their full shots at full range. So much of the tactics resolve around board control that having both players move simultaneously would be a total disaster. The fact of the matter is that simultaneous actions are a big problem even when it's only 1 player moveing their own models. I've lost count of the amount of times that I've seen questions on the forums about how reserves interact with units on the table. This isn't even getting into simultaneous shooting where what shoots first wipes out its counter and turns the game on its head, meaning Han who shoots first wins, same deal with assault, the benefit of moving the extra distance and getting an extra attack can be a huge deciding factor in who wins assaults.

Simultaneous is a trainwreck, I-go-You-go works fine for many other games and we already have out of sequence stuff like interceptor and overwatch in 7th, so it wouldn't be thaaaaaat huge of a thing to bring in something similar, though of all the things that need fixing in 40k, the turn system is well down the list IMHO.

[Renegade Paladin]

Question that came up in my game today, though: The rules no longer mention the interaction between blast weapons and multi-level ruins. If there are guys on three stories of a ruin and a blast weapon hits the ones on top, does it also hit everyone under the blast template on the floors below?

[Blackhawk748]

Question that came up in my game today, though: The rules no longer mention the interaction between blast weapons and multi-level ruins. If there are guys on three stories of a ruin and a blast weapon hits the ones on top, does it also hit everyone under the blast template on the floors below?

Common sense would say no, but thats just me.

[Ricky S]

Common sense would say no, but thats just me.

Wait, is that not a thing anymore? I still enforce the blasts hit every level of the ruin rule.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wait, is that not a thing anymore? I still enforce the blasts hit every level of the ruin rule.

In 6th edition, ruins had four pages of rules. In 7th, they have two sentences. To all appearances, that's not a thing anymore.

Edit: The FAQ has this to say:

Q: Can Bikes, Super-heavy Walkers, Walkers, and Monstrous Creatures move and/or assault units on the higher levels
of ruins?
A: Yes. For simplicity and ease of play, the core game rules allow most models to climb any piece of scenery. Use the ‘Wobbly Model Syndrome’ rule if it is not possible to place the model in the position it is meant to be occupying. If you wish, you may want to say that models are only allowed to move to places that they could reach ‘in real life’, but you will need to apply a certain amount of common sense and discretion in order to make such a rule work well..

It doesn't say anything about blast weapons, but that does suggest that they intended to throw out all the old ruins rules.

[Brookshw]

Question that came up in my game today, though: The rules no longer mention the interaction between blast weapons and multi-level ruins. If there are guys on three stories of a ruin and a blast weapon hits the ones on top, does it also hit everyone under the blast template on the floors below?

Blasts affect all levels of ruins, top to bottom.

[Renegade Paladin]

Right, never setting up in a ruin again. What the hell, GeeDubs?

[Cheesegear]

Question that came up in my game today, though: The rules no longer mention the interaction between blast weapons and multi-level ruins.

A Blast Marker hits all models that you can see under the Template. Regardless of the 'level' they are on. The only way you don't get hit is if you can't be seen when you look through the Template (e.g; Underneath a 'floor' so you can't be seen from 'above'). The FAQ kind of changes this rule, implying that you can be hit even if you can't be seen by the Template ("Is intervening terrain (floor) ignored?").

The FAQ, Page 13
BLAST MARKERS & TEMPLATES
Q: Do blast weapons, regardless of size or type, now hit all models at all height levels under the template? And if so, is intervening terrain (such as bridges or floors) ignored when
determining how many hits are caused?
A: A blast marker or template affects all models underneath it, including those on different levels of a piece of scenery. (Designer’s Note: Earlier versions of this rule restricted the effect of blast markers and templates to models on ‘a single level’ of scenery. This created problems with scenery that didn’t have strictly definable ‘levels’ and we decided on this change for simplicity. In addition, we feel the rules now better reflect the explosions being three-dimensional (i.e. spherical and not circular) as well as better representing the deadliness of weapons such a flamers when used in confined spaces.)

Mostly it means that Blast weapons are more effective when you shoot them into a confined space. What weirdos. It means that AP- Blast weapons are actually useful because they do more hits now.

Our meta has ruled that the answer doesn't fully answer the question. That models on all levels of a Ruin are hit, but it doesn't mention that latter part of the question regarding being able to see through floors.

[Wraith]

There's a six year gap between 4th and 7th. Who is Adrian Woods? Is he responsible for Orks not getting a book for six years?

Take everything that I'm about to type with a big pinch of salt; it's gossip that has been relayed to me through more than one person that I trust, but is still just gossip and I make no bones that it may be as wildly inaccurate as the usual GW-back-office stuff that gets bandied about.

Adrian "The Grand Warlord" Wood was a columnist for White Dwarf at the time of 3rd Edition's launch and well into 5th edition, at least. He now works for Black Library as a "designer", but back in the day he was "The Ork Guy" in the office - literally, the only person who played them by choice. If you can think of a White Dwarf Battle report between 1998 and about 2007 that featured Orks, it was probably being written by him because absolutely no one else would touch them.... And fortunately for us, the readers, he was a genuinely pleasant and enthusiastic guy who adored the hobby and entertained endlessly for years.

This meant that, when a new Codex was needed. the task was given to him as the in-house expert. Unfortunately, Adrian Wood wrote army lists that had to be fun to read about and wasn't actually all that great at the competitive side of things, preferring to kit-bash together Dread Mobs and the likes over anything more reliable. The resulting document was submitted, deplored, and then handed to Phil Kelly, who had the unenviable job of salvaging Codex: Orks (4th) on a very, very short deadline.

And then Orks don't get a Codex for another 6 years, as you say. Was that because Adrian made a complete mess of it and they wanted to let the embarrassment die down? Was it because they were angry with him and wouldn't give him the project again, despite not having anyone else free who could do much better? Was it because, most damning of all, GW just didn't know what to do with their own army until years later when they could force out some token flyers, some big kits in the form of the 'Nauts and call it "new"?
*I* have no idea, but my friends independently agree that Adrian Wood's ****-up was a factor. So.... there. *shrug*

Here's to hoping that they'll actually listen to their fans regarding 8th Ed.

Holy Christ, I hope not. If they do that, the first thing they'd have to release would be Squats, followed by Sisters of Battle, followed by Squats again. They need to listen to some of their fans, yes, but only the ones who can prove themselves sensible and reliable, and not just those that can howl the loudest on the internet.

[druid91]

When you say it is unwise to start a new army at this time, HOW unwise do you mean?

[Renegade Paladin]

When you say it is unwise to start a new army at this time, HOW unwise do you mean?

That depends. If you just like the models and want to build an army of them for the hobby aspect, knock yourself out. If you're picking an army because it does well in the competitive meta, though, it's extremely unwise, because a new edition is likely to change everything about what's competitive and what's not. (Believe me, I know; I'm a Guard player and I played through the change from 5th to 6th, when mech went from king to garbage overnight.)

[druid91]

That depends. If you just like the models and want to build an army of them for the hobby aspect, knock yourself out. If you're picking an army because it does well in the competitive meta, though, it's extremely unwise, because a new edition is likely to change everything about what's competitive and what's not. (Believe me, I know; I'm a Guard player and I played through the change from 5th to 6th, when mech went from king to garbage overnight.)

Well, given my competition is a guy who played years ago, and is several editions behind. At least we'll be equally obsolete. : P

[Turalisj]

When you say it is unwise to start a new army at this time, HOW unwise do you mean?

Planting a full crop a day before winter level of unwise.

[Cheesegear]

When you say it is unwise to start a new army at this time, HOW unwise do you mean?

Earliest rumours say that a new edition of the game will drop sometime in Q2 for the end/start of the financial year.
Given that they're asking for feedback from Adepticon, there's a chance 8th Ed. might not be near completion as we thought (or, at least, GW is taking more time for this one because they absolutely should because 40K is the goose that lays the golden egg and they can't afford to bungle it - lieterally), meaning that it might end up in Q3/Q4 for the holiday season. But, still could be as early as June.

In any case the current rules as they exist now, have between 2 and 8 months (I know, that's a pretty big window) of shelf life, and there's no guarantee of what 8th Ed. will bring. Suffice to say that it would be really dumb if GW scrapped the entire game, but it is definite that they will change some things. We just don't know what those things are. So, 'good' models you buy now, might be 'bad' in a few months, and you may have unwisely spent your money, when you could have bought a different model that stayed relevant.

The biggest question you have to ask yourself is how much money are you going to plan to spend?
- How much time/effort are you going to put into your models?
- How many games / How much fun are you going to have?

Is the money you spend now enough to justify how much time/effort/fun you're going to have before a new edition drops?
Knowing that we/you don't know what a new edition will bring.

For some individual models (e.g; Celestine), the answer is yes. The number of times I will use my two new Land Speeder Storms in the next few months absolutely makes up for the money I spent on them. But, I don't know if I, personally, would start a brand new army from scratch at this point, since even my Building on a Budget series, with the Start Collecting! boxes, with the Armoured Troops boxes, sill comes to ~$5-600 for a core block of units for 1000-1500 Points.

If you 'just want to play with your mates', then it doesn't matter. Whatever changes happen in 8th Ed. are unlikely to affect you in the least. The models should be fine, just don't go spending an arm and a leg on a rulebook and Codex (might want to get them from auction sites instead of a store).

[boomwolf]

If you'll be starting small, with core units only, like getting a "start collecting" set plus one-two extra side units, the edition shift will unlikely mean much to you.

If you are not too competitive and just want things you find fun, the edition shift would unlikely mean much to you.

If however, you are a powergamer looking for the strongest army he can pull off, the edition shift could kill your army.

[Saambell]

Another general guide line about Edition Shifts is: when in doubt, play Space Marines, and I mean the Main Book ones, not the Stand Alone Chapters like DA, SW, and BA, those are vulnerable. GW is VERY unlikely to give them a bad book or mess them over in a Edition Shift. The most that can happen is your Paint Scheme (if one of the First Founding Chapters) becomes invalid. Most of their models are unlikely to take too big a hit overall, besides maybe a few side cases.

Someone can probably point to a edition where they did take a big hit, or where some big kit of theirs dropped in use immediately. But over all, the core basics of their book are always good.

[boomwolf]

That's bad advice if I ever saw one.

Sure, marines will be highly unlikely to be hurt, but if you don't like marines, it's worth nothing.

[Saambell]

I was mostly referencing your Case 3 that you posted. Power gamers don't care about "what's their favourite army fluff or design wise" they go for what gets them wins. And for that, Space Marines are the Safe Bet, until something else makes its name known.

[Mystic Muse]

Got around to playing my first game this Saturday. 350 points since I had no idea what I was doing, and don't have a codex yet (friend is delivering it Wednesday).

I got slaughtered, because I decided to go with a simple army for the sake of ease, and the guy didn't realize my HQ (Prime) was the only one capable of damaging his walkers.

[Eldan]

That's bad advice if I ever saw one.

Sure, marines will be highly unlikely to be hurt, but if you don't like marines, it's worth nothing.

Welcome to current 40k. The meta has three parts: Marines and Friends, Eldar, and everyone else.

[Cheesegear]

This Chart told me Snakebite Leather was Balor Brown. It's not. It's XV-88.

Nothing major. Just thought I'd vent.

[Blackhawk748]

Right, never setting up in a ruin again. What the hell, GeeDubs?

GW once more defies common sense not to mention breaking the golden rule of "If it aint broke don't fix it"

*Ork Stuff*

But the 4th ed Codex was loved by us Ork players? Or did GW not get that memo?

[Mystic Muse]

Kind of random question. In regards to Zoanthropes. What does "Wrap Them in cotton wool if you want them" mean exactly?

[Cheesegear]

Kind of random question. In regards to Zoanthropes. What does "Wrap Them in cotton wool if you want them" mean exactly?

Zoanthropes are fire magnets. Expect them to be shot at (Venomthropes), else they'll fold like wet paper in Melee, which means surrounding them with Termagants.

[Mystic Muse]

Zoanthropes are fire magnets. Expect them to be shot at (Venomthropes), else they'll fold like wet paper in Melee, which means surrounding them with Termagants.

Alright, thanks. I've been told I should buy a brood as an anti-vehicle unit, and wanted to know what all protecting them entailed.

[Voidhawk]

Alright, thanks. I've been told I should buy a brood as an anti-vehicle unit, and wanted to know what all protecting them entailed.

Zoanthropes come with a stock 3++, so the cover from a Venomthrope doesn't do much. Even Venom+gauntwall only gets to 3+ cover, so unless your table has alot of 4+ cover to scoot between they're not going to be a priority to shield with venoms. Generally, there are two ways to use Zoanthropes:

1) Walking. The cheap option. Gently drifting up one side of the board, providing buff powers and throwing AP3 blasts at things, till they eventually get into Lance range. Use whatever unit you're buffing to prevent anyone assaulting them. Remember that since their guns are all Assault weapons in the Pyschic Phase, you get to run an extra d6 every shooting phase at no penalty. Downsides: job could be done by a Tervigon or Walking Tyrant instead, slow speed means won't get into Lance range for some turns and most vehicles can simply drive away from them.

2) Podding. Give them a Tyrannocyte, drop right next to a target and straight into eye-beam range. Very effective, but somewhat suicidal. I only say "somewhat", because that 3++ consistently over-performs for me. Best used with many other units than can be in your opponents face early, so they can't just shoot them with everything. Downsides: unit will likely die, often out of range of other support units, reserves rolls can mean they don't arrive till later.

As always, Zoanthropes are most suitable against heavier tanks (AV13/14). Against light vehicles (AV10-12) you'd be better off with Hive Guard, or the tyranid catch-all solution: a Flying Tyrant with quad-Devourers. What are you facing that has made you wish for more anti-armour options? What do the people you play with often bring?