Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[lord_khaine]

Melee is kind of hilarious in Shadowwar, because for the first time in the game's history Weapon Skill is the god stat.

Ehh.. perhaps for the first time in Shadowwars history, but its notthing new in 40k

[Brookshw]

Skyshield gives a 4++, Venomthrope gives shrouded (which is +2 to cover saves). Given the new MC & Terrain rules (you have to be at least 25% obscured to get a cover save) is the hero-dude going to get any benefit from the 'thrope?

If you just want to cover camp, then if an Aegis can get you to 25% (IIRC, it can't), that plus a 'thrope gives you a 2+ cover, but cover saves really don't mean much these days. Beyond that, any intervening models should still give you a 5+, which can then be boosted to a 3+ cover with the Venom. Roll for night fighting and take your 50/50 shot for a 2+ cover first turn? Add Catalyst(?) from a friendly flyrant (or Zoey) for FNP if it doesn't already have that from being FW.

I'm not sure I know the answers to these questions. The BH is a hefty model but only about the same height as a tervigon so maybe (big maybe) it has 25% cover behind a defense line. Im assuming you can put a defense line on a platform directly because the top counts as open terrain. Intervening models may help but would only (w/ venom) give 3+ so I'm trying to find a way to get a base 4+ so the venom can firther reduce it. I can only imagine a venom affects the BH but am not 100% on that (away from books atm).

BG is a gargantuan creature so has fnp. Personally I can't think of anything that would modify the fnp or 4++ from the skyshield.

[Drasius]

I'm not sure I know the answers to these questions. The BH is a hefty model but only about the same height as a tervigon so maybe (big maybe) it has 25% cover behind a defense line. Im assuming you can put a defense line on a platform directly because the top counts as open terrain. Intervening models may help but would only (w/ venom) give 3+ so I'm trying to find a way to get a base 4+ so the venom can firther reduce it. I can only imagine a venom affects the BH but am not 100% on that (away from books atm).

BG is a gargantuan creature so has fnp. Personally I can't think of anything that would modify the fnp or 4++ from the skyshield.

Roll strategic (like you weren't already) and get stealth (ruins). Cover (intervening models) + stealth + shrouded = 2+

An Aegis give anything behind it a 4+ cover IIRC, but you can't gtg for a 2+ because, IIRC MC's can't gtg anyway even if they're not fearless but it will let you get to a 2+ cover with just shrouded.

Fairly sure you can't put a defense line on a skyshield, though I'm not 100% on that.

[JNAProductions]

I don't think there's any rule against it, but it's something that's iffy enough that I'd ask your TO/opponent before you do it.

[Blackhawk748]

Ehh.. perhaps for the first time in Shadowwars history, but its notthing new in 40k

What...what are you talking about? WS has been basically worthless forever except for noting who is higher. Unless this is a joke in which case im just not getting it.

[Bobby Baratheon]

What's the current state of the meta on Knights? I'm seriously considering picking up an Imperial Knight Crusader for both the glorious dakka and because the model is awesome. I'll probably get it anyway, but I'm just curious where Knights are at right now.

[Renegade Paladin]

What's the current state of the meta on Knights? I'm seriously considering picking up an Imperial Knight Crusader for both the glorious dakka and because the model is awesome. I'll probably get it anyway, but I'm just curious where Knights are at right now.

Depends. How many Tau in your meta?

[Bobby Baratheon]

Depends. How many Tau in your meta?

NONE There is one guy who wants to pick them up though. He's . . . not very good, so I'm not very worried.

[Wraith]

What...what are you talking about? WS has been basically worthless forever except for noting who is higher. Unless this is a joke in which case im just not getting it.

Shadow War/Necromunda use the same close combat rules as 40k 2nd Edition. So WS was the god-stat literally 20 years ago, before 3rd Edition happened in 1998

[Blackhawk748]

Shadow War/Necromunda use the same close combat rules as 40k 2nd Edition. So WS was the god-stat literally 20 years ago, before 3rd Edition happened in 1998

What did it do back then?

[Theodoric]

Shadow War/Necromunda use the same close combat rules as 40k 2nd Edition. So WS was the god-stat literally 20 years ago, before 3rd Edition happened in 1998

I just realised that the time period between that and me getting into the hobby is shorter than the time between then and now. That means

A) I'm really old, the time is gone, no one told me when to run, I missed the starting gun, shine on you crazy diamond etc.

B) Practically a generation has passed without the current system being overhauled or even looked at critically. The Weapon Skill table now in use hasn't changed in at least 15 years; and that table isn't exactly so brilliant it's one for the ages.

[Wraith]

What did it do back then?

Both players pick a model in base contact with each other and then roll simultaneously. You roll dice equal to your guy's Attacks score, plus another for charging, plus another for additional CC weapon. Pick the highest and add your Weapon Skill to it. If your opponent rolled a 1, add that to your score (and vice versa). Add 1 for every multiple of 6 you rolled (so two 6's equalled 7, three 6's equalled 8, etc). The difference between your score and your opponent's, is how many To Wound rolls the winning model makes upon the losing one.

In an Edition where most special characters had at least WS7, quite a lot had WS10, and your opponent probably only had 3 or 4 Missile Launchers and/or Lascannons/Heavy Plasma Guns/similar in their entire army to stop that character from getting into close combat. And you rolled Close Combat individually, one at a time - you weren't rolling To Wound that many times against the squad, you were rolling To Wound that many times against the first guy in the squad that you're rolling against, and then you do it to the next guy in base contact, and then the next.....

...A difference of -/+3 WS was essentially auto-resolved in all but the most bizarre and unlikely of cases.

B) Practically a generation has passed without the current system being overhauled or even looked at critically. The Weapon Skill table now in use hasn't changed in at least 15 years; and that table isn't exactly so brilliant it's one for the ages.

It's even worse than you'd think; the "roll to hit" method of Close Combat used in 40k used today was copy/pasted from Warhammer Fantasy Battles as it was in 1998 - while it's only been used for 15 years and there have been minor tweaks along the way, it's been mostly unchanged in about 25 years.

[Pilum]

I had Guard at the time so not so much 'god' for me, but for combat you basically rolled one dice per Attack point and then added your WS (+/- the odd modifier) to your highest roll, then compared your score to your opponents. Highest won, and inflicted a number of hits equal to the difference between the scores. You can imagine the mayhem of (for example) Ragnar Blackmane and friends barrelling into a basic Rifle platoon for yourself.

It wasn't always so easy, one of those mods was that each roll of 1 (or possibly only after the first one, its been too long now) was a fumble which added +1 to your opponent, but then additional 6's were crits and gave YOU a +1.

Edit: one other thing to remember is that some Melee weapons had their own stats, as did a pistol used in combat. So a power sword, for instance, was always S5 (well, I SAY always, can't remember now if YOUR S score overrode it, but then that wasn't a consideration for a Guard captain!!) and -3 save mod IIRC; an Axe was S6 but I think you could get additional bonuses for going 2-handed with it instead. It's that change to power weapons to 'users S' which knocked a few troop types (like Banshees, for ex) and character upgrades down, and they've never really recovered.

Edit 2:

And you rolled Close Combat individually, one at a time - you weren't rolling To Wound that many times against the squad, you were rolling To Wound that many times against the first guy in the squad that you're rolling against, and then you do it to the next guy in base contact, and then the next.....

In fairness, the game was a bit smaller then. I remember agreeing to an 'ultimate showdown' game against the above Puppies player, biggest table in the club, 3000 pts... and I fielded one 3-squad platoon, a 2-squad platoon, 1 Russ, possibly a Demolisher, definitely at least one Chimera with a squad of Ogryns and a squadron of sentinels against Ragnar, Ulrik, maybe 2 packs of Blood Claws, similar Grey Hunters and a small pack of Long Fangs. There were probably a few more things on either side (a rhino or two, maybe another chimera and ratlings, maybe an extra squad somewhere...?) but that was a really big game for us (and one of the best I've ever had, any ruleset, any period, but that's another story)

The scale of the game really did change from 2nd to 3rd, though the streamlining was nothing but a bonus at first. Then the codices started rolling out, but thats another moan for another time...

[Drasius]

Depends. How many Tau in your meta?

Tau vs Knight isn't really that much of an issue now that every tau army doesn't have at least 6 tank hunting missilesides in it, their focus on riptides means that for either gun they're looking for 6's to glance and you still get your 4++ and the FAQ means that getting within 12" of firewarriors isn't almost assured death for your knight. The OSC can be annoying, but again, the FAQ at least lets you have your save and you're at least immune to the burst cannons while the CIR's are looking for 5's.

[Cheesegear]

It begins.

Spoiler: Shadow Team WIP

Show

Yeah, played again a lot more today as now more people have the rulebook (in AU, Shadow War sold out in 2 hours). Definitely the teams to beat are going to be Harlequins and Grey Knights.

[Voidhawk]

It begins.

Spoiler: Shadow Team WIP

Show

Yeah, played again a lot more today as now more people have the rulebook (in AU, Shadow War sold out in 2 hours). Definitely the teams to beat are going to be Harlequins and Grey Knights.

Neat! Are there actual bodies under that Shadowloom-smog? Any particular reasoning to start modelling Warriors over Immortals?

[Brookshw]

It begins.

Spoiler: Shadow Team WIP

Show

Yeah, played again a lot more today as now more people have the rulebook (in AU, Shadow War sold out in 2 hours). Definitely the teams to beat are going to be Harlequins and Grey Knights.

What are you using there?

[lord_khaine]

What did it do back then?

Dam... Wraith beat me to it.. but i guess thats what you get for getting old

But yeah i were refering to the glorious edition that i started playing in.

...A difference of -/+3 WS was essentially auto-resolved in all but the most bizarre and unlikely of cases.

Oh yeah! i still remember my favorite exception though. The Exarch power that meant every 1 you rolled added increased the opponents score with 2 instead of 1. It meant having more attacks became a liability, and that a plucky Exarch could stonewall a bloodthirster for an entire combat

[Cheesegear]

Neat! Are there actual bodies under that Shadowloom-smog?

Yes there are.

Any particular reasoning to start modelling Warriors over Immortals?

Because if I screw up (as I did on some of them), I will have only ruined my New Recruits that don't matter, instead of my Leader and/or Troopers that do. By the time I get to models that actually matter, I will have had some practice.

What are you using there?

Gauze, from any pharmacy.

[Wraith]

Oh yeah! i still remember my favorite exception though. The Exarch power that meant every 1 you rolled added increased the opponents score with 2 instead of 1. It meant having more attacks became a liability, and that a plucky Exarch could stonewall a bloodthirster for an entire combat

I still remember the brief but glorious little period right at the very end of 2nd edition, when Exarch powers still functioned the same and instead of having the traditional -2 save modifer, Power Weapons ignored armour saves completely.

Warp Spider Exarchs came as default with WS6 and two power swords, so they could parry twice per combat (that is, force your opponent to reroll any of their dice), then double up their fumbles. Instant blending machine, then they could Hit & Run and let loose with their Instant Death Template weapons before charing in again. It was wonderful

[lord_khaine]

Oh yeah, i had my gaming circle convinced that those parries stacked with the ones you could get from the Exarch power, for even more blending. The Warp Spider bit were especially important as it helped dodge away from overwatch. Though you could also make him really shooty with the Maugetar.
(yeah it were back when the Phoenix lords items were on the wargear cards)

[Bobby Baratheon]

Anyone had any Shadow War games so far?

[Rizhail]

I played a game yesterday (my wych cult vs. guard vets), and watched a few demo games (nids vs. eldar, nids vs. necrons, csm vs. eldar).

Wych cult played out like I expected; almost no ranged presence and no durability means I have to hug cover and abuse the hiding and movement mechanics, but 6" movement and ridiculous combat ability means that once I make it to combat the enemy will feel it. The guard took down half my team before the others made it to close combat, and then I wiped all but one of his troops over the course of 2 hand-to-hand phases. The eldar team was quite dangerous due to the presence of a scatter laser and geared up gunner. Nids looked fun, but the small size of the team means you feel it if you lose a model.

I overall like the system, and am looking forward to my FLGS Shadow War league kicking off next weekend. Still not sure if I'll stick with my Wyches or try out Pathfinders or Wolf Scouts; I can't help but like the idea of playing a team of heavily customized and specialized wolf scouts. The fact that the various subfactions of orks, guard, and space marines get different skill access (and slightly different build rules for the Wolves) is pretty awesome from a thematic standpoint.

[Cheesegear]

Anyone had any Shadow War games so far?

Affirmative.

[Wraith]

In a similar vein, a friend of mine has told me that he has recently been able to sneak a preview game of Warhammer Underworlds: Shadowspire, the other squad-sized game coming out in the near future.

A man notoriously difficult to please when it comes to Wargaming, he has enthusiastically described it as "really quite good" and as a "straight-out-of-the-box game like X Wing/Magic (the Gathering)".

I don't know if he means that mechanically, as I haven't had chance to press the issue, but I'm now abuzz with the idea of a Warhammer Fantasy-era game using the set Movement Sticks, Card-based manoeuvrers/stats and symbol laden - rather than numeric - dice. Definitely one to watch out for.

[Cheesegear]

A man notoriously difficult to please when it comes to Wargaming, he has enthusiastically described it as "really quite good" and as a "straight-out-of-the-box game like X Wing/Magic (the Gathering)".

See, to me, that doesn't mean anything. Any starter box you can name is 'straight out of the box' as long as it has everything you need;

- Models
- Dice/Templates
- Rules

Because there's no possible way that you can say that X-Wing is designed to be played with a single X-Wing and two TIE Fighters.

Just like you're not going to tell me that Chaos Marines are designed to played with a Lord, two units of Cultists, a unit of badly wargear'd Chosen and a single Helbrute.

"You can play it straight out of the box!" doesn't mean anything. Just like you can buy a starter deck of Pokémon cards and play if you want, but no starter deck is ever the way the game is intended to be played.

but I'm now abuzz with the idea of a Warhammer Fantasy-era game using the set Movement Sticks

That would suck.

Card-based manoeuvrers/stats and symbol laden - rather than numeric - dice.

I hate symbol'd dice - especially the Blood Bowl ones - as they are definitely always miscast and weighted. I know my set of X-Wing dice roll more Focus than they should, especially 'cause there's only two Focus sides and three Evades and and Blanks.

[Wraith]

"You can play it straight out of the box!" doesn't mean anything.

As in, it's a stand-alone product, such as Execution Force or Dreadfleet, rather than an expansion for an existing game like Silver Tower or a starter box such as Battle for Calth. Is that not interesting to you?

That would suck.

Care to expand upon that opinion? I don't mean that one would literally pick "hidden" distances and follow a specific curve (as I absolutely do not know that this would be the case), after all, but I think I could enjoy a wargame wherein different factions can move in different ways, via a method more unique than simply pushing a tape measure out slightly further.

I hate symbol'd dice - especially the Blood Bowl ones - as they are definitely always miscast and weighted. I know my set of X-Wing dice roll more Focus than they should, especially 'cause there's only two Focus sides and three Evades and and Blanks.

That can be solved pretty easily with painted dice, rather than engraved. Not necessarily a perfect solution, I know, but then even GW's pipped dice are notoriously crooked in my experience so even a little bit would be relatively successful.

[Cheesegear]

As in, it's a stand-alone product

Deathwatch; Overkill
Silver Tower
Execution Force - Except this dropped away when they started introducing Daemon Princes and more adversaries and saying "Buy more stuff!"
Betrayal at Calth / Burning of Prospero

All of these things are lame. The models are what sell the product. I hated all of the games, because it always felt like the rules were only a token attempt at rules-writing in order to sell the models in the box.

Care to expand upon that opinion?

Maybe it's just a matter of X-Wing being too big. Those movement sticks don't mean anything anymore. The more powerful ships in X-Wing are the ones that can move without the sticks. Which is basically just having your own movement type.

but I think I could enjoy a wargame wherein different factions can move in different ways

So not using sticks at all? And rolling a ****-ton of Focus dice and using special abilities. Cool.

via a method more unique than simply pushing a tape measure out slightly further.

Which is just measuring sticks.

That can be solved pretty easily with painted dice, rather than engraved.

Tell me where I can get some of those, and I'll gladly get behind it.

[Drasius]

Deathwatch; Overkill
Silver Tower
Execution Force - Except this dropped away when they started introducing Daemon Princes and more adversaries and saying "Buy more stuff!"
Betrayal at Calth / Burning of Prospero

All of these things are lame. The models are what sell the product. I hated all of the games, because it always felt like the rules were only a token attempt at rules-writing in order to sell the models in the box.

Deathwatch was OK, Silver tower is pretty good, execution force was fantastic fun and I can't comment on BaC or BoP since I haven't played them (in fact, I only know of 1 person ever who hase actually played BaC and 0 who have played BoP),

Having said that, the only ones out of those that I bought was Silver Tower (as my blackshirt agreed to paint it for free if I did and he's a pretty good commission painter) and BaC to start my 30k Thousand Sons army (ironically after BoP was out because I wanted MkIV marines) since, as Cheese said, I had no need for the models in the boxes. Same as Dark Vengance isn't a starter kit, it's a cheap expansion for a CSM force, especially when there was no other way to get cultists. Even then it's not great since a very large potion of the models in there are total trash that you would never take in a list. In fact, back when I first started at the beginning of 6th, I looked at DV and wondered why anyone would buy it over just taking good units as the only usable things were the cultists and the ravenwing bikers.

I can also say that in our store, in the ~5 years I've been there, not a single person has bought into a boxed game without already having an army and a use for the models in said army (I was planning on using the Tzaangors for Tz cultists before they got their own kit announced) or, in the case of BaC/BoP, to start or bulk out a 30k one.

[deuterio12]

"You can play it straight out of the box!" doesn't mean anything. Just like you can buy a starter deck of Pokémon cards and play if you want, but no starter deck is ever the way the game is intended to be played.

Trivia, but MTG was indeed intended to be played like that at start. Richard Garfield knew stuff like moxes and black lotus were just better than basic lands, but didn't expect people to go out of their way to buy packs by the hundreds so they could get enough moxes/lotus for all their mana needs and use no lands at all. That led to the creation of the classic rule of "only X copies of each non-basic land per deck", which virtually every collectible card game copies to this day.

Or how Zerg Rush dominated the early days of Starcraft, meaning the "starter set" of a bunch of zerglings was all you needed to win, until the hatchery got its price doubled.

What designers "intend" and how players end up playing often ends different.