Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXIX: Ro, Ro, Ro Your Boute

[Requizen]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...40000-weapons/

Weapons. Nothing here surprises me, and that's good! Flamers in big units will be usable again since you can't block your squadmate's template!

[Gauntlet]

Interesting things to note:

AP equivalency looks like it's going to be something like this:
AP5 -> AP0
AP4 -> AP1
AP3 -> AP2
AP2 -> AP3
AP1 -> AP4

Seems mostly the same in a lot of ways. Guardsmen's armour is slightly more relevant outside of close combat. Fire Warriors and MT would still get a 5+ against a heavy flamer, which is nice. Terminators get a 5+ against lascannons and plasma, which matches their current invuln, though this is nice for Meganobz.

Flamers don't appear to ignore cover any more (or it doesn't say so here, anyway)

Lascannons do D6 wounds, which looks like it means a Dreadnought can't be one-shotted by a single LC hit, which is nice.

[Drasius]

Interesting things to note:

AP equivalency looks like it's going to be something like this:
AP5 -> AP0
AP4 -> AP1
AP3 -> AP2
AP2 -> AP3
AP1 -> AP4

Seems mostly the same in a lot of ways. Guardsmen's armour is slightly more relevant outside of close combat. Fire Warriors and MT would still get a 5+ against a heavy flamer, which is nice. Terminators get a 5+ against lascannons and plasma, which matches their current invuln, though this is nice for Meganobz.

Flamers don't appear to ignore cover any more (or it doesn't say so here, anyway)

Lascannons do D6 wounds, which looks like it means a Dreadnought can't be one-shotted by a single LC hit, which is nice.

Cover is meant to be an armour save modifier, so it could be inbuilt into the special rules, though it seems odd that it's not in the abilities section. Maybe they figure that auto-hit with d6 was good enough? Heldrake is going to be a lot less scary now that it can't just delete entire marine squads. Unless they give it 2d6 due to torrent, then it'd be roughly back to what it does now.

Lascannon seems a bit naff, giving stuff a save that normally wouldn't get one, but doing ~3 wounds a hit makes them actually scary anti tank, which is good, since they've been pretty poor at their one job for a while now. 1 squad of twin linked devs should make most big things you point them at go away. Bolters appear to still be trash, but at least 5+ save units are completely and utterly invalidated anymore (yet).

I remain optimistic that this is nothing but good news (at least until we see either points costs or eldar, then the excrement will really hit the air circulator).

[boomwolf]

Yeah, I even checked the original Hebrew spelling in several places to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ass. Going into more detail would probably start to edge into a banned topic, when all I originally wanted to do was talk about a name for lizard people.

Well, my source is being an actual Hebrew speaking jew, take it or leave it.

Seraph is an angelic rank.
Soreph is burning.

Close, but not the same. (and if you use casual writing Hebrew without the silly pronunciation symbols, it's written the same.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Sure, they're different words, but they have the same root don't they? Doesn't Hebrew run off of tri-consonantal roots, the base trio of which is the basest meaning, and vowels, prefixes, infixes, and suffixes modify the base meaning?

[Blackhawk748]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/...40000-weapons/

Weapons. Nothing here surprises me, and that's good! Flamers in big units will be usable again since you can't block your squadmate's template!

On the one hand, i will miss templates. On the other hand Plasma Cannons no longer suck because of Small Blast. I think this trade off is worth it.

Also i find it funny how they are saying that Burna boyz will suddenly be amazing. Offense was never their problem, getting close enough with their Tshirts was. Now if i can take 'ard Boy armor on them....

[Brookshw]

Does it seem odd to anyone else they're releasing so much 8e info but we don't have a firm release date? I'm sure there's something to be said for druming up hype, but how long realistically can you maintain general excitement?

[boomwolf]

Sure, they're different words, but they have the same root don't they? Doesn't Hebrew run off of tri-consonantal roots, the base trio of which is the basest meaning, and vowels, prefixes, infixes, and suffixes modify the base meaning?

Not... Exactly...
It applies to our version of verbs (though some are quad-consonantal), but not to to everything.

Seraph is like a name or a title, the system simply does not apply.
And even if it did, no variation of soreph leads to Seraph.
Soreph is the action of burning something, sometimes used to describe something currently on fire
Nesraph is past tense, burnt
Yisareph is future will burn
Sorphim is multiple "(they) are burning X", doesn't make sense in the term of multiple objects on fire though.
Etc

The point being, Seraph is not a variation of soreph, despite using the same letters. The pronunciation marks are different, and that's enough to completely separate the two words. It's far from the only case in Hebrew of identical letters for different words.
It's an old language, and not a very good one.

The fact the average person writes Hebrew without any pronunciation marks is probably what led to people mixing the two.


You want to make it sillier? Sap, as in tree sap, is also the same letters, pronounced sharaf.
The only reason the Seraph got attributed to fire and not tree sap, is that tree sap isn't nearly as impressive.

[Theodoric]

Does it seem odd to anyone else they're releasing so much 8e info but we don't have a firm release date? I'm sure there's something to be said for druming up hype, but how long realistically can you maintain general excitement?

Probably because the aimed-for release date is going to be surprisingly close. Scuttlebutt's early-mid June, if they've got a few more big announcements up their sleeves (which they probably will, with the new book, factions and starter set) they might just keep it up for six weeks.

[Cheesegear]

IIRC, we were also one of only ~5 stores to get open copies of the new AoS stuff, simply because enough AoS was sold to warrant it. Not sure if that's still a thing, but we always have open copies of AoS, even the new releases while that's verboten for 40k.

We get Open Copies. Does that mean Queensland is full of cool kids? I think it does.
QUEENSLANDER! *Spits cheese-dust and drink all over everyone's models*

Does it seem odd to anyone else they're releasing so much 8e info but we don't have a firm release date? I'm sure there's something to be said for druming up hype, but how long realistically can you maintain general excitement?

"June 10th will be a big day for 40K." - from the Adepticon panel. Basically it looks like we're about a month away from doing pre-orders. So...Yeah.
Also, I agree with you. Telling us one thing every day is going to get annoying. Especially because every blog all over everywhere is going to talk about every single thing all the time. Which means every day until release I get to read about the same thing five times! Yay.

[Blackhawk748]

Someone in here mentioned Rak'gol as a possible faction. Well Heralds of Ruin, during their mass update of their Kill Team) has made a list for them. They also made Grot Rebels and a bunch of others.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Not... Exactly...
It applies to our version of verbs (though some are quad-consonantal), but not to to everything.

Seraph is like a name or a title, the system simply does not apply.
And even if it did, no variation of soreph leads to Seraph.
Soreph is the action of burning something, sometimes used to describe something currently on fire
Nesraph is past tense, burnt
Yisareph is future will burn
Sorphim is multiple "(they) are burning X", doesn't make sense in the term of multiple objects on fire though.
Etc

The point being, Seraph is not a variation of soreph, despite using the same letters. The pronunciation marks are different, and that's enough to completely separate the two words. It's far from the only case in Hebrew of identical letters for different words.
It's an old language, and not a very good one.

The fact the average person writes Hebrew without any pronunciation marks is probably what led to people mixing the two.


You want to make it sillier? Sap, as in tree sap, is also the same letters, pronounced sharaf.
The only reason the Seraph got attributed to fire and not tree sap, is that tree sap isn't nearly as impressive.

Huh, strange. I thought it would have been closer to the Arabic system, considering the close histories of the languages, and that their grammars are both described as tri-consonantal roots, cuz in Arabic if you have a root s-r-f meaning "fire", then istasaraf would mean "to seek to fire", and isaarif would mean "to deal with fire" and so forth. I had assumed that in Hebrew it was similar, where you could modify a word beyond tense to give it a multitude of standard meanings.

[Drasius]

We get Open Copies. Does that mean Queensland is full of cool kids? I think it does.
QUEENSLANDER! *Spits cheese-dust and drink all over everyone's models*

Apparently, yes. I'd also heard that Qld generally had a much better uptake of AoS than other states wile I think it was NSW that was the least interested. It was always amusing reading how "no-one" played AoS when we would have a game going every day, even at launch before GHB and after GHB it only got stronger (just like everywhere else).

Back on topic though - Yes, it's going to get annoying to get trickle fed stuff for a month, but I think I'd still rather this than them keeping their mouths shut until the pre-order comes out. Look at how positive [almost] everyone has been compared to every other edition change ever where the sky is falling. Some info combined with not only letting people know to stop buying books but giving refunds for recent codex purchases as well as some community engagement has done absolute wonders for people attitude towards 8th.

[Blackhawk748]

Because it amuses me, i have made a Grot Rebels list using Heralds of Ruin. They are probably terrible, but i can bring so many to the party!

Spoiler: Red Banna Raiders

Show

Team Wide Upgrades
Bad Counting Skills-5
Big Boom Booby Trap-10
Snotling Infestation-10
Surprise Party-20
Poor Battle Awareness-10

Team Leader
Gitsnikka Boss w/ Grot Snipa, Krak Grenades, Grot Attendunt, Fancy Hat-22 points

Core
'ead Shootas-15

'ead Shootas-15

'ead Shootas-15

Backstabbas w/ Sabeturs-25

Backstabbas w/ Sabeturs-25

Kustom Mega Kannon-30

Kustom Mega Kannon-30

Taktikul Advisurs-15

Total 247

So this list has a bunch of S3 Rending shots, i can make two enemy weapons have Gets Hot!, the Taktikul Advisurs help with my horrendous Ld and the Mega Kannons provide some very important hitting power. Im fairly certain i went overkill with the Kill Team wide upgrades, but they are so fun

[Professor Gnoll]

Apparently, yes. I'd also heard that Qld generally had a much better uptake of AoS than other states wile I think it was NSW that was the least interested.

I can believe this. I live in NSW, and I almost never see people playing AoS, even with an open copy lying around. Meanwhile, the 40K tournaments always get a big showing.

[Ricky S]

I was in QLD but moved to VIC and it's about half half in terms of AoS and 40k. In my local store everyone has an AoS army but we play 40k more often. Slowly we are getting more AoS players though as more armies are released.

[Cheesegear]

It was always amusing reading how "no-one" played AoS when we would have a game going every day, even at launch before GHB and after GHB it only got stronger (just like everywhere else).

We barely had any games before General's Handbook, because it would always be ridiculous.

General's Handbook fixed pretty much everything that was wrong with the game. We had a few holdouts because 'Fixed To Hits and To Wounds aren't competitive', to which the simple response is that it isn't a unit's statblock that makes a unit competitive. What makes a unit competitive in Sigmar is whether or not it has half a page of rules affixed to it, and how it combos with another unit's rules.

When talking about good units in Sigmar, the statblock is the least important part (except for Bravery and Save). I imagine 40K is going to go the same way "Every unit has its own rules" after all, which ultimately means that 'People who don't read good wont be able to play 40K/8 good'. Which is the antithesis of a game 'supposedly' geared towards children - which basically means that Sigmar isn't for children because of how deceptively complicated/competitive it is.

Some info combined with not only letting people know to stop buying books but giving refunds for recent codex purchases as well as some community engagement has done absolute wonders for people attitude towards 8th.

It's pretty much one of the best things I've ever seen GW do.

[Wraith]

It's pretty much one of the best things I've ever seen GW do.

It is indeed a very kind gesture, but what I am currently unhappy about is that GW are STILL selling the current Codices for ~$50 each - for a game that they are straight-up admitting will not exist in about 2 months' time. They've even advertised a "sale" of their "soon to be out of date" books, which just literally means "we are selling these books at full price, but please buy them now before we send them to be pulped".

That's just.... ridiculous. It's not as though I'm expecting a "previous edition" sale at the end of June, just to get rid of their remaining stock to collectors and people who - like me - would absolutely love to pick up at least 3 of them for the fluff, art and nostalgia value.

A shame. I'd love to support my FLGS or even GW directly, but instead it looks like I'll be lurking on eBay and giving my money to a 3rd party instead.

[Drasius]

It is indeed a very kind gesture, but what I am currently unhappy about is that GW are STILL selling the current Codices for ~$50 each - for a game that they are straight-up admitting will not exist in about 2 months' time. They've even advertised a "sale" of their "soon to be out of date" books, which just literally means "we are selling these books at full price, but please buy them now before we send them to be pulped".

That's just.... ridiculous. It's not as though I'm expecting a "previous edition" sale at the end of June, just to get rid of their remaining stock to collectors and people who - like me - would absolutely love to pick up at least 3 of them for the fluff, art and nostalgia value.

A shame. I'd love to support my FLGS or even GW directly, but instead it looks like I'll be lurking on eBay and giving my money to a 3rd party instead.

I reall don't see what you're sad about. They've told everyone that the dexes are going and a surprisingly large (to me) percentage of people collect the various codecies for the fluff/art and this gives people a chance to pick up any that they really want but hadn't gotten around to buying before they get take out of circulation forever. If they'd just pulled them all last week and said, nope, we're done with dexes, you'd have people wailing about it because they missed their chance to get their dex for a faction they don't play.

If you're not expecting a sale like someone who haggles with a bakery just before closing, why are you complaining? If people collected them for the fluff/art, then it makes absolutely no difference at all if the rules become invalidated in a month when 8th drops since the people who bought them for fluff/art didn't want the rules anyway.

[Cheesegear]

I reall don't see what you're sad about.

The problem is that about half the book will be useless, but GW is still going to charge full price for them. Which seems...Well, it isn't shady, since they've already told you up front that half the book will be useless in one-two months' time. But, y'know...Not great.

Business gonna business.

[Wraith]

I reall don't see what you're sad about.

Allow me to rephrase then:

GW are STILL selling the current Codices ***for ~$50 each!!!***

I didn't think I was at all vague in what I was saying, but now it's fixed.

[Requizen]

I mean, I get that the rules will no longer be the most recent, but that's what they thought the price of the physical book should be, and that's what they're selling it for. No one wants to eat the cost of something because it's no longer the "right time" for it, they're going to sell it for what they think it's worth, or thought it was worth when they originally priced it.

[pilvento]

Id like to give my grain of salt saying that me and my gaming group (bout six people) are all excited about the comming rules, the hype is getting us back together since 6th edition and we are even playing games learning the 7th edition rules on the spot just to give our models a warm up for whats comming.

Im gonna give my eldars a run this saturday and not only Im rusty but also like I said Im not familiar yet with the codex nor the 7th edition rulebook. Maybe you can give me a quick hand with the army list? here is what i have.

Spoiler: My models

Show

12 guardians windriders
4 warlock windriders
1 farseer windrider
1 Asurmen
20 dire avengers
10 warp spiders
1 karandras
5 striking scorpions
3 vypers
2 crimson hunters
1 crimson hunter exarch / hemlock wraithfighter
2 fire prisms
2 wave serpents / falcons

As you can tell, i dont like wraith constructs AT ALL

A well balanced 1000 and 1500 list is what im looking for now, each of my friends has a diferent race so it makes our gatherings super interesting. orkz, caos marines, blood angels, grey knights, nids, dark eldar, and myself

[LeSwordfish]

New Movement rules hinted at.

I like them! Combining movement and running is a nice simplification. The "hit and run" thing is kind of neat - it neuters blobs and death stars a little. I wonder if " and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you!" just means they can shoot because you're no longer locked in combat, or do they get a free out-of-sequence shot?

[Brookshw]

I mean, I get that the rules will no longer be the most recent, but that's what they thought the price of the physical book should be, and that's what they're selling it for. No one wants to eat the cost of something because it's no longer the "right time" for it, they're going to sell it for what they think it's worth, or thought it was worth when they originally priced it.

Actually that's the problem they're creating for themselves. By maintaining the price, including their profit margin, they reduce their chance of sales meaning to DO have to eat their manufacturing cost already sunk into the production of their current inventory. Realistically they need to move it or they lose, but they're gambling instead people will buy them up re: of the forthcoming obsolescence.

I won't be surprised if the sales start going up the closer they get to the new edition, this may just be temporary to take advantage of "panicked buyers" who fear their chance to acquire the products.

[Lost Demiurge]

Got to play my first Shadow War game last night. Fielded my tyranids.

Spoiler

Show

Tyranid Leader with deathspitter and rending claws
Tyranid Warrior with spinefists
2 X Tyranid Gunbeasts with no upgrades

Holy crap.

Uh...

My opponent was a little peeved. He brought sisters of battle... six of them. His specialist had a flamer and his leader had a power sword and bolt pistol. The rest had boltguns, I think.

I pretty much shredded him. We were starting off with the first mission, the kill everything that moves one. I played my guys like xenomorphs, splitting up, running, and moving from cover to cover until I could get within shredding range. Saved my butt multiple times, as his sisters had to make shots at 5+, and had a hard time doing so.

And he split his team. That was the end of it, pretty much. If he'd stuck together and focused fire he could have maybe pulled it off. Dude had a flamer and a good lineup of bolters. There were a few good spots he could have made a decent bunker of things.

As it was, my guys got to come in from multiple vectors on one or two sisters at a time, and it was goodnight sisters. Once the close-combat started, only his leader had much luck, and thanks to my attack dice advantage she only managed one wound initially, and then we fought to a draw for about three turns.

But my leader with the Deathspitter, he was pretty much MVP. Once he got within range he was walking around like a boss, with good dice and a sustained fire S5 weapon. Downed 2 sisters and kept the flamer one pinned until the others could get there and eat face.

The overall impression with my meta is that Tyranid Warriors are overpowered now.

After one game.

Neh, what can you do? I figure it'll even out in the long run.

In the meantime, my leader's now got the Hunter skill and one of my specialists has a heavy venom cannon, so I look forward to more griping the next time we play.

[Requizen]

New Movement rules hinted at.

I like them! Combining movement and running is a nice simplification. The "hit and run" thing is kind of neat - it neuters blobs and death stars a little. I wonder if " and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you!" just means they can shoot because you're no longer locked in combat, or do they get a free out-of-sequence shot?

So they've confirmed that there's no shooting into/out of combat. I have a slight worry that falling back out of combat will make Assault units too weak - if they can't stay locked in during your opponent's turn, there's nothing stopping them from just getting shot every single turn, right? If you can't get Flayed Ones stuck in with, I dunno, Fire Warriors or something, they're just going to get shot to death the turn after they charge. I wonder if some dedicated combat units will have a rule to prevent enemies from running away? In AoS it doesn't matter since you can shoot into/out of combat, but locking things down is such a huge deal in 40k.

Overall it looks good though. Running as part of the movement phase is perfect. They mentioned Flyers having a minimum movement on their stats - I wonder what that means for Hover Flyers? Maybe their Dataslates will be a little different.

[Eldan]

I'd assume hover fliers just have minimum movement 0.

[Requizen]

Will there still be swapping between Zooming and Hover, though? Not that it really matters, I'm just so curious about everything!

[Tome]

Got to play my first Shadow War game last night. Fielded my tyranids.

Spoiler

Show

Tyranid Leader with deathspitter and rending claws
Tyranid Warrior with spinefists
2 X Tyranid Gunbeasts with no upgrades

Holy crap.

Uh...

My opponent was a little peeved. He brought sisters of battle... six of them. His specialist had a flamer and his leader had a power sword and bolt pistol. The rest had boltguns, I think.

I pretty much shredded him. We were starting off with the first mission, the kill everything that moves one. I played my guys like xenomorphs, splitting up, running, and moving from cover to cover until I could get within shredding range. Saved my butt multiple times, as his sisters had to make shots at 5+, and had a hard time doing so.

And he split his team. That was the end of it, pretty much. If he'd stuck together and focused fire he could have maybe pulled it off. Dude had a flamer and a good lineup of bolters. There were a few good spots he could have made a decent bunker of things.

As it was, my guys got to come in from multiple vectors on one or two sisters at a time, and it was goodnight sisters. Once the close-combat started, only his leader had much luck, and thanks to my attack dice advantage she only managed one wound initially, and then we fought to a draw for about three turns.

But my leader with the Deathspitter, he was pretty much MVP. Once he got within range he was walking around like a boss, with good dice and a sustained fire S5 weapon. Downed 2 sisters and kept the flamer one pinned until the others could get there and eat face.

The overall impression with my meta is that Tyranid Warriors are overpowered now.

After one game.

Neh, what can you do? I figure it'll even out in the long run.

In the meantime, my leader's now got the Hunter skill and one of my specialists has a heavy venom cannon, so I look forward to more griping the next time we play.

Well according to CG's analysis Sisters are a start-weak-become-strong team, while Tyranids are the opposite. It also sounds like your opponent wasn't playing very tactically, and had a prettybad matchup in terms of mission.

What they probably should have done was stay together and focused your leader, since he wasn't running which means at most, what a -1 from cover? Put him out of action to free up the flamer and bunker up.

Though honestly the list doesn't sound too great either, with the power sword and lack of storm bolters. I'd have probably gone with something like this myself:

Spoiler: SoB List

Show

Sister Superior - 260 points
Storm Bolter, Melta Bombs

Battle Sister - 175 points
Bolter, Simulacrum Imperialis

Battle Sister - 125 points
Bolter

Battle Sister - 125 points
Bolter

Gunner - 175 points
Storm Bolter, Red-dot Laser Sight

Gunner - 140 points
Flamer

I'm pretty sure nids give a +1 to hit due to being hueg models. He used his re-roll 1s thing as well, right?