The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Segev]

Infiltrator is an entirely possible role for a mimic to fulfill, but I'd like to point out it's quite a narrow niche. Besides, something like a Hairy Spider (+0 LA, 0 RHD) or Shadow creature (+2 LA) will probably be better still.

Indeed. I wasn't lobbying for a higher LA. I was trying to objectively examine what it could do well/best. And that was the best I could come up with. I think -0 LA wouldn't be unreasonable, honestly, though it MIGHT be +0 LA at 7 HD just because it's able to keep up with a 7th level fighter. Maybe.

[Zancloufer]

Mimic has enough bonus Strength to not care too much about lost BaB. Overall it's stat bonuses are actually pretty good. I think it's biggest issue though is it's lack of skill points or movement speed. It's almost a -0 due to absolute crap chassis that is only good at one thing that kind of clashes with it's one really good ability.

[Mystic Muse]

I would say -0 simply because the chassis isn't especially good for enabling much. I don't see what class you take this into. You have to jump through hoops to get a semi decent movement speed, unless you have a very lenient DM who allows the shapechanging exploit mentioned by inevitability.

[Remuko]

With the wisdom bump couldnt the mimic make a decent wizard or druid? Druid would definitely solve the mobility issue and cleric probably can too with spells. I guess 7 lost levels hurts but with Druid does it matter? And maybe with ur priest stuff cleric would be okay (im not too familiar with ur priest to be sure how viable that is).

Also Barbarian Mimic? If you don't take pounce alt (on mimic prob not worth tbh) the +10 ft movement speed makes him as fast as a dwarf, which is much more workable.

Just some random shallow not well thought out thoughts I had about the mimic.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Besides, something like a Hairy Spider (+0 LA, 0 RHD) or Shadow creature (+2 LA) will probably be better still.

I've heard of the Shadow Creature template, but Hairy Spider is new to me. What book is it from?

With the wisdom bump couldnt the mimic make a decent wizard or druid? Druid would definitely solve the mobility issue and cleric probably can too with spells. I guess 7 lost levels hurts but with Druid does it matter? And maybe with ur priest stuff cleric would be okay (im not too familiar with ur priest to be sure how viable that is).

A mimic with five Druid levels can turn into a wolf for a few hours, summon apes, and cast dominate animal or wind wall. An elf with twelve Druid levels can be a shambling mound all day, summon elephants, cast liveoak or wall of stone. Losing a few levels of spellcasting won't make a druid (or any other caster) incapable, but it will make them less capable. I'm not sure the mimic's abilities make up the difference, and they don't really synergize with druid abilities.

[bekeleven]

I've heard of the Shadow Creature template, but Hairy Spider is new to me. What book is it from?

It's not. It's in a 3.0 campaign world book and due to transparently faulty editing people like to claim it's a playable race. It's literally mindless.

When someone suggests that you play a hairy spider, they are having a go at you.

[RedWarlock]

I think it's faulty logic to use as-yet-unexamined LAs in one's reasoning for an existing LA. While rare, LA could go up on a poorly-balanced race/template. IMO, class levels and compensation thereof should really be the only rule of thumb. Shadow is one that strikes me as possibly undervalued.

[Mystic Muse]

With the wisdom bump couldnt the mimic make a decent wizard or druid? Druid would definitely solve the mobility issue and cleric probably can too with spells. I guess 7 lost levels hurts but with Druid does it matter? And maybe with ur priest stuff cleric would be okay (im not too familiar with ur priest to be sure how viable that is).

"Ur-Priest" should not have a place in any discussion where we're trying to be reasonable people.

[Inevitability]

I would say -0 simply because the chassis isn't especially good for enabling much. I don't see what class you take this into. You have to jump through hoops to get a semi decent movement speed, unless you have a very lenient DM who allows the shapechanging exploit mentioned by inevitability.

Mimic has enough bonus Strength to not care too much about lost BaB. Overall it's stat bonuses are actually pretty good. I think it's biggest issue though is it's lack of skill points or movement speed. It's almost a -0 due to absolute crap chassis that is only good at one thing that kind of clashes with it's one really good ability.

Indeed. I wasn't lobbying for a higher LA. I was trying to objectively examine what it could do well/best. And that was the best I could come up with. I think -0 LA wouldn't be unreasonable, honestly, though it MIGHT be +0 LA at 7 HD just because it's able to keep up with a 7th level fighter. Maybe.

Good points: LA reduced to -0.

With the wisdom bump couldnt the mimic make a decent wizard or druid? Druid would definitely solve the mobility issue and cleric probably can too with spells. I guess 7 lost levels hurts but with Druid does it matter? And maybe with ur priest stuff cleric would be okay (im not too familiar with ur priest to be sure how viable that is).

Also Barbarian Mimic? If you don't take pounce alt (on mimic prob not worth tbh) the +10 ft movement speed makes him as fast as a dwarf, which is much more workable.

Just some random shallow not well thought out thoughts I had about the mimic.

I actually created a barbarian mimic NPC in my early 3.5 days (horribly unoptimized of course). It worked out reasonably well.

I've heard of the Shadow Creature template, but Hairy Spider is new to me. What book is it from?

Monsters of Faerun combined with the subsequent online update to 3.5 made Hairy Spiders +0 LA, 1 RHD vermin.

It's not. It's in a 3.0 campaign world book and due to transparently faulty editing people like to claim it's a playable race. It's literally mindless.

When someone suggests that you play a hairy spider, they are having a go at you.

1. Mindless creatures having a LA is not something exclusive to MoF's spiders. There's Dustform creatures, for one.

2. Even if giving a LA wasn't the developers' intention, that doesn't change the fact that by RAW it's possible. A DM is free to houserule it, but such a thing is beyond this thread's scope.

3. Increasing intelligence from mindlessness is pretty easy. The Fiendish template, branded +1 LA by this thread, works, for one. A Fiendish Hairy Spider would still have a far lower ECL than a mimic.

I think it's faulty logic to use as-yet-unexamined LAs in one's reasoning for an existing LA. While rare, LA could go up on a poorly-balanced race/template. IMO, class levels and compensation thereof should really be the only rule of thumb. Shadow is one that strikes me as possibly undervalued.

I admit, shadow is an unevaluated template, but people seem to agree it's fine at +2. The Tier System For Templates places it in tier 2, and it gets used reasonably frequent in optimization.

[bekeleven]

2. Even if giving a LA wasn't the developers' intention, that doesn't change the fact that by RAW it's possible. A DM is free to houserule it, but such a thing is beyond this thread's scope.

I'm picturing a player coming up to the table with a character sheet and going, "I'm playing a mindless character." And the DM takes the sheet and runs their character the entire night without their input. Now I want this to happen, it sounds hilarious.

3. Increasing intelligence from mindlessness is pretty easy. The Fiendish template, branded +1 LA by this thread, works, for one. A Fiendish Hairy Spider would still have a far lower ECL than a mimic.

Nonability + Stat = ability? Does that mean if I cast Bear's Endurance on a ghost, it loses 3 HP per HD?

[Celestia]

I'm picturing a player coming up to the table with a character sheet and going, "I'm playing a mindless character." And the DM takes the sheet and runs their character the entire night without their input. Now I want this to happen, it sounds hilarious.
Nonability + Stat = ability? Does that mean if I cast Bear's Endurance on a ghost, it loses 3 HP per HD?

Uh, no. That's not how Fiendish works. It doesn't provide any intelligence bonus. Instead, it explicitly says that a Fiendish creature has a minimum intelligence of 3.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, no. That's not how Fiendish works. It doesn't provide any intelligence bonus. Instead, it explicitly says that a Fiendish creature has a minimum intelligence of 3.

So a fiendish hairy spider *would* be playable, if suboptimal?

[Celestia]

So a fiendish hairy spider *would* be playable, if suboptimal?

Correct. Just don't play a wizard or a skillmonkey.

[danielxcutter]

Correct. Just don't play a wizard or a skillmonkey.

So... what should a fiendish hairy spider be? Hexblade?

[Celestia]

So... what should a fiendish hairy spider be? Hexblade?

Warlock. Dragonfire Adept. Druid. Dex-based martial? Not many options, really.

[danielxcutter]

Warlock. Dragonfire Adept. Druid. Dex-based martial? Not many options, really.

Actually, Swordsage with Shadow blade and Weapon Finesse might not be terrible.

[Inevitability]

I actually made a thread on that a few years ago. I believe dragonfire adept was the most popular suggestion.

[danielxcutter]

I actually made a thread on that a few years ago. I believe dragonfire adept was the most popular suggestion.

Oh really? Huh...

[javcs]

Nonability + Stat = ability? Does that mean if I cast Bear's Endurance on a ghost, it loses 3 HP per HD?

Yes and no. For templates, the rules precedent (as set by the Sentry Ooze Template in Dungeonscape) is that if a Template provides a +stat to a "--" ability, the "--" is treated as a 0 for determining the new score.

However, as far as I know, there is no such precedent that applies to spells and items that provide stat bonuses to "--" abilities, and therefore a "--" ability, or nonability, would not be affected by a +stat spell or item affecting the ability in question. Likewise, they would not be affected by a spell or item that inflicted a penalty or damage to the ability.

[Segev]

Yes and no. For templates, the rules precedent (as set by the Sentry Ooze Template in Dungeonscape) is that if a Template provides a +stat to a "--" ability, the "--" is treated as a 0 for determining the new score.

Really? So any +Int template would give the +Int bonus as the flat score to a mindless creature?

Worse, any +Con template would give the +con bonus as a flat score to the formerly construct or undead? It seems weird that the -- would be treated as 0, and not 10, since it's treated as 10 for what it adds or subtracts from statistics dependent on that attribute.

[Inevitability]

A friendly reminder that discussions on nonabilities and bonuses should probably be in their own thread.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Actually, Swordsage with Shadow blade and Weapon Finesse might not be terrible.

Why is "swordsage" always the answer?


Though in this case, I'd suggest rogue as a viable choice. +16 to Hide and the ability to treat small rocks as half cover make for easy sneak attacks.

[bekeleven]

Why is "swordsage" always the answer?

This was a joke in one of my groups.

How do I build a good stealth character? Swordsage.

How do I build a good unarmed combatant? Swordsage.

How do I build a party face? Swordsage.

How do I build an awakened bush? Sworsage.

How do I build a wizard? Swordsage.

[No brains]

Swordsage'd.

[danielxcutter]

Swordsage'd.

*does rimshot*

[Grand Arbiter]

*checks in on awesome thread*
*looks up, sees jokes*
*facepalms, and backs out of thread whilst shaking head*

[Thurbane]

How the heck did this get to 11 pages before I even noticed it was up!

[Flickerdart]

How the heck did this get to 11 pages before I even noticed it was up!

Because Spot is cross-class.

[Inevitability]

Because Spot is cross-class.

Not for aristocrats, commoners, and experts, though.

...Thurbane, are you a wizard?

[Thurbane]

Not for aristocrats, commoners, and experts, though.

...Thurbane, are you a wizard?

LOL

I'd say I'm probably an Expert. But my wife would certainly agree that I don't have any ranks in Spot: maybe I allocated my ten skills elsewhere.