Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIII: You Must Smash Additional Pylons!

[Wraith]

Mortarion being a psyker is one of those things that is true in the crunch, but in the fluff is.... weird.

Typhus, for example, is a psyker in the rules but in the novels is expressly and specifically a sorcerer, because the Death Guard hates psykers. Similarly, Khornate Daemons have abilities that are kind of psychic powers, except that they get called Daemonic Gifts.
That is how I see Mortarion; he's a sorceror and he's festooned with Daemonic Gifts, both of which look and act like psychic powers for all intents and purposes but by definition alone are not psychic powers.

....Or maybe Nurgle f'd him over and turned him into a psyker regardless of what Mortarion wanted. That sounds possible, and certainly explains his poor disposition.

[hamishspence]

Mortarion being a psyker is one of those things that is true in the crunch, but in the fluff is.... weird.

Typhus, for example, is a psyker in the rules but in the novels is expressly and specifically a sorcerer, because the Death Guard hates psykers.

The Forgeworld book makes it clear he's a psyker in the fluff too - so does the Death Guard book - Mortarion ordered all psykers in the Death Guard to keep their powers unused - but he didn't execute them.

Basically it's a case of - sometimes people with psychic power passed the training to become a Marine - so they're in - even though Mortarion dislikes them, he's not going to expel or execute them.

After the fall to Nurgle of the Death Guard, Mortarion stopped commanding them to Not Use Power - so the Legion has plenty of casters. They are ostracised and disliked (except in one of the Plague Companies which has much more respect for them) but they're still there.

(Going by the A Thousand Sons novel, Mortarion hated sorcery even more than psykery - which makes him being a sorcerer/psyker now, especially ironic).

[Cikomyr]

Yhea. Many factions have Psykers despite hating Psykers, by the same cheap ass way the Space Corgis have Psykers. They just name them something else.

Proof that Hypocrisy is both a Chaos and an Order trait.

[Cheesegear]

Yhea. Many factions have Psykers despite hating Psykers, by the same cheap ass way the Space Corgis have Psykers. They just name them something else.

Uh, they actually also explicitly claim that what they're using isn't the Warp, and therefore Rune Priests are not Psykers, even though they quack and waddle. However they still wear Psychic Hoods. In my head they're hybrid Psyker/Sorcerers, except that they don't actually know that they're Psykers, and since their 'Sorcery' doesn't involve murdering civilians and making blood- and soul-pacts with Daemons, the Space Wolves are fine with...Whatever they're doing that makes their Powers work. But it isn't the Warp - so they claim.

[Drasius]

Uh, they actually also explicitly claim that what they're using isn't the Warp, and therefore Rune Priests are not Psykers, even though they quack and waddle. However they still wear Psychic Hoods. In my head they're hybrid Psyker/Sorcerers, except that they don't actually know that they're Psykers, and since their 'Sorcery' doesn't involve murdering civilians and making blood- and soul-pacts with Daemons, the Space Wolves are fine with...Whatever they're doing that makes their Powers work. But it isn't the Warp - so they claim.

Pfft, are you really going to trust what (literally) filthy mutants have to say?

[Cikomyr]

Uh, they actually also explicitly claim that what they're using isn't the Warp, and therefore Rune Priests are not Psykers, even though they quack and waddle. However they still wear Psychic Hoods. In my head they're hybrid Psyker/Sorcerers, except that they don't actually know that they're Psykers, and since their 'Sorcery' doesn't involve murdering civilians and making blood- and soul-pacts with Daemons, the Space Wolves are fine with...Whatever they're doing that makes their Powers work. But it isn't the Warp - so they claim.

Thats bullcrap and you know it. Sorcery is Warp use, just ritualized that relies more on intellect/knowledge instead of a willpower-based reshaping of reality. Kind of Wizards vs. sorceres in Desdenverse.

Sure. maybe the Rune Priests use fancy rituals, but any magic comes from the Warp. No exception. All spirits are Warp entities. No exception.

They are just a bunch of hippocrites for claiming that they are any different.

[hamishspence]

Or, as it's put in Prospero Burns:


‘The psyker mutation is a priceless asset to our species,’ said Helwintr. ‘Without it, we would be condemned to captivity on Terra. The Great Houses of the Navigators allow us to expand our reach. The astrotelepaths allow us to communicate over the gulfs. But caution must always be exercised. Control.’
‘Why?’
‘Because when you gaze out with your mind, you never know what will stare back.’

'Psyker ability is not a thing of itself. It allows us to draw on a greater power. It is just another path to that same something else. The best path. The safest path. Even then, it’s not without its pitfalls. If you’d care to, you may define maleficarum as any sorcery that is not performed under the most stringent application of psyker control.’

Heresy-era Rune Priests (those that aren't deluding themselves, at least) are using "the most stringent application of psyker control" to draw on the same power every other psyker does.

The more deluded ones, claim that all their power is coming from Fenris, and not the Warp at all.

[Wraith]

Sorcery is Warp use, just ritualized that relies more on intellect/knowledge instead of a willpower-based reshaping of reality.

...maybe the Rune Priests use fancy rituals, but any magic comes from the Warp. No exception.

You know that. I know that. Cheesegear knows that. But the Space Wolves are *******s who refuse it because they have to be special little wonderkids, just like in everything else they do.

That's the reason as to why I liked The Primarchs: Leman Russ so much. At first he sort-of admits that he's in the wrong, but Russ is such a douchbag that he can't help but screw up over and over and insist it's some else's problem until Lion El'Johnson - who actually IS completely in the right at every point in the story - kicks his ass for it.
Even then, it takes hundreds of years for the beating to sink in and realise the lesson that was learned, and all of this he imparts upon a newly initiated Space Wolf to try and teach him the error of the Legion's ways.

The Forgeworld book makes it clear he's a psyker in the fluff too - so does the Death Guard book - Mortarion ordered all psykers in the Death Guard to keep their powers unused - but he didn't execute them.

Huh, fair enough. The only book I'm familiar with in that regard is Flight of the Eisenstein, which only mentions his disgust at the concept. Maybe it evolved later with a different writer, or I misremembered something.

[hamishspence]

Typhon's backstory is a little fuzzy - some sources suggest he was a Dusk Raiders Librarian, others emphasise his birth on Barbarus and that he's connected in some way to its alien warlords.


It may be a case of - when Mortarion was brought to Terra by the Emperor, several of his followers were brought along - including Typhon - who enrolled in the Dusk Raiders Librarium - then, around the same time Mortarion renamed them the Death Guard, the Librarium was closed by him and all Librarians returned to the ranks.

[Wraith]

I was about to say that I had strong doubts that a Psyker who, having been forced to suppress his powers, would be able to become First Captain of a Legion. Or in Mortarion's case, that he'd even allow it - just because Typhus doesn't use his powers, doesn't mean he's not a mutant witch on the inside.

But then I remembered Sevatar. So it could totally happen, after 200 years of ruthless and efficient Crusading, I guess.

[Cheesegear]

Typhon's backstory is a little fuzzy - some sources suggest he was a Dusk Raiders Librarian

No. One source. ****ing Gav Thorpe who has no idea what he's doing, and writes nothing but trash.

Annandale's origin story for Typhus more closely resembles the Typhon from the Heresy. Since Annandale wrote The Death of Antagonis, and The Last Wall, The Hunt for Vulkan and Watchers in Death (few of the novels in TBA that actually advance the plot meaningfully). I should note that immediately after Vulkan was found and given actual post-Heresy character development, it was literally Gav Thorpe who wrote the next book - The Beast Must Die - putting Vulkan on a bus never to be seen again. WHAT ARE YOU DOING GAV THORPE!?

(I assume editorial mandate may have had something to do with it, where introducing a Primarch that wasn't Guilliman wasn't allowed. But, since Thorpe's name is on the front, and I hate him anyway, it fits my narrative. Because Vulkan would have been real handy to have in a fight against The Best, and Vulkan being a Perpetual actually makes sense for him to randomly show up whenever he's needed. Seriously. When Vulkan is inevitably released in 40K, I want a timeline of what he's been doing for the last 10K years, and I want mythos about a Jolly Green Giant - very similar to Cypher.)

When it comes to deciding an origin story for Calas Typhon, and my options literally happen to be Thorpe's version (which doesn't make any sense, probably because Typhus isn't Dark Angels so Gav doesn't care what he ruins), or Annandale's (who makes sense and lines up with the Heresy properly). I'm going with the latter every time.

others emphasise his birth on Barbarus and that he's connected in some way to its alien warlords.

Yes. Because Calas' Family was one of the ones deposed by Mortarion, when Mortarion said 'No more Warlords', and then became the planet's warlord, Typhus has hated Mortarion from the start. I assume 'You killed my father' plays into it somehow. But, Typhon/Typhus' emnity towards Mortarion can only make sense if Calas was born on Barbarus. Hi, Annandale! Good job!

[hamishspence]

It isn't just Gav Thorpe's The Lion (which I've not read, but going by Lexicanum, is the source you're referring to)-

Forgeworld Horus Heresy Book 2 (Massacre) also states that Typhon was in training to be an Epistolary Librarian for a while - but when he discovered Mortarion's disdain for psykers, suppressed his power and sought to climb up the normal ranking system instead.

Given that the alien warlords themselves are 3 times the height of a man, it's safe to say that Typhon is not a pure-blooded warlord, though he (or one of his parents) might have been experimented on as a child, giving him a trace of warlord blood.

The Lexicanum article does raise a solution reconciling The Lion with Massacre:

the short story Daemonology mentions that Mortarion spent an unspecified length of time on Terra between being rediscovered by the Emperor and assuming command.[13] It is possible that Typhon/Typhus was recruited from Barbarus and inducted into the Legion's Librarius during this period, although this would require Mortarion to have been on Terra for several years (considering the amount of time required to create a Space Marine).

[LeSwordfish]

The Death Guard codex does explicitly say that Typhus is both Barbaran and a Pskyer, though it doesn't mention any relationship with the warlords.

[hamishspence]

We know from Forgeworld HH Book 1: Betrayal, that some of Mortarion's revolutionaries volunteered to be implanted when Mortarion was brought to the Dusk Raiders Legion, despite the high failure rate that is usual among adult (as opposed to juvenile) implantees.

My guess is that it went as follows.

A very young Typhon joins Mortarion's Death Guard Revolutionaries very late in the campaign to conquer the Charnel Overlords of Barbarus. He has not been with them long enough to develop the strong devotion to Mortarion that the others have.

The Emperor deals with the last Overlord. Mortarion is humiliated. Typhon sees Mortarion's fallibility.

The Emperor brings Mortarion, and those Death Guard survivors of the campaign (including Typhon) to Terra.

Mortarion goes into meditation, conversations with the Emperor, etc.

They all volunteer to join the Dusk Raiders. Typhon is one of the few that survive implantation (his youth maximises his chances).

Typhon begins training as a Librarian.

Mortarion comes down from that Tower that's been mentioned as a place of pilgrimage for Primarchs.

Mortarion announces the new name "Death Guard" for the whole Legion

Mortarion abolishes the Librarius.

Typhon is extremely resentful.

Erebus meets Typhon, and the Lodge system is imported into the Death Guard in secret.

[Cheesegear]

Or, as it's put in Prospero Burns:

Spoiler: Get Woke

Show

[hamishspence]

Calas' Family was one of the ones deposed by Mortarion, when Mortarion said 'No more Warlords', and then became the planet's warlord, Typhus has hated Mortarion from the start. I assume 'You killed my father' plays into it somehow.

Does that come from one of the short stories - The Carrion Anthem, or Herald of the Plague God? I was under the impression that the warlords themselves were too alien to be closely related to Typhon - though it is possible that his family worked for one of the warlords, their ancestors were experimented on by the warlord - and when the warlord was killed, the servants still in the warlord's castle were freed.

Many might have died in the process of taking the castle though - I could see Typhon as having been orphaned in Mortarion's campaign, and blaming him (not openly though).

[Silverraptor]

Hey guys. I have another nooby question to ask you all again. But when everyone said the four chaos gods decided to scatter the primarchs across the galaxy when they were infants, how exactly did that event transpire? Were the primarchs stolen from their baby cribs on Terra, or were they for some stupid reason or whatever aboard a ship while it was traveling through the warp and all 4 gods were like, "Hey yeah, that ship looks particularly good on messing with. Let's all dog pile on it." Only times I've seen mention of this it's merely stated the gods scattered them but never went into specifics.

[The Glyphstone]

They were in tanks/vats or something in the Emperor's Lab on Terra, if I remember right. Exactly how they managed to abduct them all is one of the perennial mysteries of the lore.

[Wraith]

Exactly how they managed to abduct them all is one of the perennial mysteries of the lore.

By which you mean, "while undertaking the pilgrimage Argul Tal and the soon-to-be Gal Vorbak were sent back in time and told to blow up the power generator for the Void Shield around the Emperor's Palace, which in turn allowed the Gods to reach in warp-gate the Primarchs' gestation pods outta there"?

This is a thing that happens in The First Heretic. At the time, no one is sure if it's some kind of vision quest, or an imaginary True Test Of Character, or something like that.... But then Argul Tal realises that he doesn't care, that his Legion was humiliated by the Emperor, and if SOMEONE has to be the reason as to why the Chaos Gods could reach the Primarchs then it might as well have been him. So, he stabs the machine up with his two swords and history is, if not made, then at least rationalised.

[Theodoric]

Isn't sorcery just Psyker stuff with extra mysticism? I haven't really kept up with the fluff much but them being exclusive categories instead of complementary is news to me.

[Drasius]

Isn't sorcery just Psyker stuff with extra mysticism? I haven't really kept up with the fluff much but them being exclusive categories instead of complementary is news to me.

Usually more of a Psycher-stuff-with-extra-faustian-bargains sort of deal, but there's always been a rather blurry line between what's sorcery and what's psychery. The usual fluff way to tell is is it's someone on your side then it's psychery, if it's an enemy (or someone on your side you don't like) then it's sorcery. If you're chaos, then it's probably sorcery anyway regardless of who's telling the story.

[Voidhawk]

Isn't sorcery just Psyker stuff with extra mysticism? I haven't really kept up with the fluff much but them being exclusive categories instead of complementary is news to me.

The most important difference is this: you have to be born a Pysker, but anyone can do Sorcery. Pyskers are often better than normal people at Sorcery, but anyone can do the rituals. And anyone can screw up the rituals. This is why books on chaos are so dangerous, because in anyone's hands they can get a planet accidentally eaten by daemons.

[Ionbound]

Are there women in the IG? If so, are the units gender-segregated at all? No I'm not planning on making an all-female model troop

[Tome]

Are there women in the IG? If so, are the units gender-segregated at all? No I'm not planning on making an all-female model troop

Some are, some aren't, it depends entirely on the regiment.

We've had examples in the fluff of both.

Doooooooooo it.

[LeSwordfish]

There are women in the imperial guard. Regiments are more often gender-segregated than not but very many have men and women alongside each other.

(There aren't any female heads in any of the imperial guard kits, but you can get appropriate ones from Statuesque Miniatures.)

[Drasius]

There are women in the imperial guard. Regiments are more often gender-segregated than not but very many have men and women alongside each other.

(There aren't any female heads in any of the imperial guard kits, but you can get appropriate ones from Statuesque Miniatures.)

Victoria Miniatures also do pretty good female guard conversion bits (https://victoriaminiatures.com/colle...quads-and-bits) and just nice models in general, especially if you wanted some of the various regiments like that are stuck with only a handful of old models via GW.

[Cikomyr]

Are there women in the IG? If so, are the units gender-segregated at all? No I'm not planning on making an all-female model troop

Ciaphas Cain novels feature prominently a Valhallan coed regiment that was made by the merging of two single-sex regiment after both suffeted heavy losses to the Tyrannids (the 296th and the 301st became the 597th).

So the answer to your questions are: Yes, and All of the Above

[Blackhawk748]

Are there women in the IG? If so, are the units gender-segregated at all? No I'm not planning on making an all-female model troop

As has been said, we've had both. If you want all female models theres a fair few nice ones that work for Scions.

[Cheesegear]

Cross-post.

Ya, the fans are never gonna let the old Regiments go, and its partially their own fault.

The thing is, GW has dropped several War Zone hints of where the fluff might go. Also explicitly having mentioned 'going back to Armageddon' (i.e; The Steel Legion should still be in the fluff).

The Fall of Cadia. I don't think we're going back there anytime soon. The Imperium might try and retake the Cadian Gate - or rather, what's left of it - but I don't think that GW is dredging up that dead horse anytime soon. Though I expect them to at some point...Just not soon.

War Zone: Ultramar. Death Guard vs. Ultramarines. This one we know about, and it's the first campaign supplement that I expect.

War Zone: Stygius. Thousand Sons vs. Mordian. In case you were wondering if 'old Guard regiments' were still in the setting, Mordians are still very much alive (in fact, they're pretty much the last planet in the Sector holding the line against Magnus). It looks like Mordian held out long enough for a whole bunch of Space Marines to arrive, and then when Magnus broke them, too, Aeldari showed up to save the day. I don't expect GW to bring back references to 'Old Night' on Mordian, and how Psykers have saved them every step of the way but I hope they do. How do we beat Magnus? Give our Psykers a Lasgun and put them on the front lines. Point is, Mordian got a two-page spread for their War Zone, and at the end of it, they aren't even dead. But, they are still fighting, so there is a story line to be continued there, at least.

The Blood Crusade. Then we have Khorne vs. Orks vs. Tyranids. In the order of battle, we see K'Bandha and Doombreed. Khorne halts the Crusade because Tzeentch lol'd at him and everyone got called to The War in the Rift.

Craftworld Iyanden. Iyanden is under attack - again - but this time by Slaanesh. I expect acquisition of spirit stones is involved. Explicitly mentioning Drukhari, Corsairs, Harlequins, Exodites and Ynnari. "Despite the common-cause victory, however, the Aeldari remained fractured." There goes GW again, giving everyone a legit reason to be friends, but then they can't...For reasons. I don't expect GW to touch this one with a ten-foot pole. The storyline seems pointless and the conclusion seems to go nowhere... On second thought, it's perfect!

Armageddon. I expect the reason that this War Zone has to share its page with two others, is because we're basically guaranteed to go here, GW hasn't given away the story. Unlike Blood Crusade and Iyanden, and like Stygius, GW hasn't already written the ending and spoiled the whole thing. Again, probably because we're almost definitely going here at some point in the future.

War in the Rift. In what seems like the most boring thing ever, Tzeentch and Khorne team up to fight Nurgle, while Slaanesh plays both sides against the middle. Tzeentch gets bored and decides that the best way to settle the dispute between the Gods is to just have their Champions fight each other. *headdesk*
I see what they're trying to do; Khorne and Tzeentch vs. Nurgle and Slaanesh (yes, that is how the rivalries actually go). The two already-strong Gods, vs. the up-and-coming Gods who are getting a bit too much power for their own good. But then...That conclusion, or proposed ending? REALLY!?

...In intended for this post to be 'Mordian and Armageddon are still around' ...Then I went somewhere else. Oops.

[Blackhawk748]

The Blood Crusade. Then we have Khorne vs. Orks vs. Tyranids. In the order of battle, we see K'Bandha and Doombreed. Khorne halts the Crusade because Tzeentch lol'd at him and everyone got called to The War in the Rift.

Wait...Doombreed is still around?? Hell ya baby!!