Fallout VII - Vault-Tec calling

[Togath]

What would you have the Brotherhood do? Let their soldiers die for lack of equipment? Or just equip them enough to give the super mutants a sporting chance? Being stronger than your enemies is what militaries do.

Well, letting other people trying to survive in the wasteland have the protection too would be nice.

[The_Jackal]

IIRC, the BoS and the Minutemen are compatible factions. They destroy enemies they deem to be a threat, or seize technology that is a threat in and of itself.

[factotum]

Yeah, but the Railroad is at least giving them a chance and preventing people from finding out and being unduly prejudiced against them.

The Institute are nothing but very shiny Slavers.

So you'd rather be a free dead man than a living slave? Because that's the difference between the Institute and the Railroad--the former just enslave you, the latter will destroy your personality, your memories, everything that makes you *you* and send a completely different person who happens to have your face and body out into the world.

As for synths going out of control--they did that *once* (the "Broken Mask" incident of 2229) when a prototype synth sent into Diamond City went berserk and killed a number of people. There is no other incident where that happens, as far as I know. Acadia in Far Harbor shows that synths with their original personalities can live free, even if the guy running the show is dodgy as heck.

[Balmas]

So you'd rather be a free dead man than a living slave? Because that's the difference between the Institute and the Railroad--the former just enslave you, the latter will destroy your personality, your memories, everything that makes you *you* and send a completely different person who happens to have your face and body out into the world.

Well, I mean, the Institute does that too. You see Coursers threatening servants with resets. You carry one out yourself at Libertalia in order to get into the Institute's good graces. If you give Mama Murphy her drugs, you can even give a courser a reset in Greenetech Genetics.

Don't get me wrong. What the Railroad does is horrifying, almost tantamount to murder. But A) it's only offered, not forced, and B) if Harkness and Gabriel are any evidence, it's reversible. There is no high-ground the Institute can claim here; they enslave AND mind-wipe synths.

[Avilan the Grey]

Agreed. The Institute is simply laughably in it's Dr Mengele approach to Evil.

Different subject: wow, your robot provisioners must have a hell of a hidden health bonus.
My rudimentary Mini Sentry that goes between the Boathouse and Mechanist Lair took a suicider to the face and laughed it off.

[Mutazoia]

So you'd rather be a free dead man than a living slave? Because that's the difference between the Institute and the Railroad--the former just enslave you, the latter will destroy your personality, your memories, everything that makes you *you* and send a completely different person who happens to have your face and body out into the world.

"It is better to be a live dog, than a dead lion."

[Triaxx]

It's not necessarily that the Railroad are good, as much as they're less evil. They want to help, whether or not they're doing it the right way is less sure.

The Institute on the other hand has ostensibly written off the surface, and yet, they continue to kidnap and replace people with Synth's, causing the population to continue to hate and fear them and ultimately leading to their own demise.

The thing about Broken Mask and Coursers, is that the Commonwealth has no examples of good Synth's, outside of Nick. So they are rightfully wary of what they perceive to be the monsters in the dark. Add in University Point, and you have an absolute case for fear.

The Institute bill themselves as Humanities last, best hope, but only the parts of humanity that serve their interests. Add in the fact that they kept releasing Super Mutants into the wild long after learning they couldn't not make them.

[Mutazoia]

It's not necessarily that the Railroad are good, as much as they're less evil. They want to help, whether or not they're doing it the right way is less sure.

The Institute on the other hand has ostensibly written off the surface, and yet, they continue to kidnap and replace people with Synth's, causing the population to continue to hate and fear them and ultimately leading to their own demise.

The thing about Broken Mask and Coursers, is that the Commonwealth has no examples of good Synth's, outside of Nick. So they are rightfully wary of what they perceive to be the monsters in the dark. Add in University Point, and you have an absolute case for fear.

The Institute bill themselves as Humanities last, best hope, but only the parts of humanity that serve their interests. Add in the fact that they kept releasing Super Mutants into the wild long after learning they couldn't not make them.

I've said this before: The big problem with the institute is that they have on coherent plan. Their goals and methods change with every new Director. If they had one, clear mission statement, and every Director worked toward that one goal, they would be more of a force to be reckoned with. But, instead, they flop around like a fish out of water, for the most part. Sure, they have synths operating on the surface, and they still replace people from time to time, but that seems to be more of a "gathering resources and information" play than anything else. Mayor Quimby is a Synth, and his sole purpose for existance seems to be to control the flow of information in Diamond City (Piper) and report anything of note back to the institute. And not much else.

[factotum]

Which is a shame, really--if the Institute were actually competent the fear and loathing the Commonwealth as a whole has for them would make a lot more sense.

[Spore]

Which is a shame, really--if the Institute were actually competent the fear and loathing the Commonwealth as a whole has for them would make a lot more sense.

You guys have really missed the point the game's writers are trying to make with the Institute? It is obvious. What does the Institute do? Science. What do they have not? A goal.

Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.
-Jurrasic Park

While both Fallout and Jurrasic Park are not philosophical milestones they tend to convey said morality issue with science. The entire narrative goal of the organisation is to show how misguided science can become without a purpose. Individual members try and make reasons up, others flee, some liberate the Synth, some enslave them.

The Director is the one institution (pardon the wordplay) that keeps the Institute from tearing itself apart. That much should be clear when you partake in their story and join that board meeting of the heads of research. People might not agree on the goals of the overseer but this being pretty much the only known lab where you can research freely (I feel BoS and Enclave facilities don't count) they don't have a choice.

Have real world analogies for once: The MIT is a pretty important research site for technological advancement, as is Silicone Valley for IT. Both don't invoke fear because research is not moral or amoral but the application. Using satellite technology for mobile phones is useful. But you can use telecommunication for all sorts of things. The FEV labs were shut down (as their intent was sinister) but Synths? Or the biolabs trying to create durable flora for the surface? Or if we leave the Institute for a bit, the crop research of Vault 81 after shutting down Vault-Tec's experiments?

It should be clear that all factions try to show you about a popular philosophical quality. The Minutemen show altruism, the Railroad talks about free will the Institute is about research and application while the Brotherhood is also about that.

If anything the Institute embodies everything the Brotherhood tries to correct.

[Avilan the Grey]

Which is a shame, really--if the Institute were actually competent the fear and loathing the Commonwealth as a whole has for them would make a lot more sense.

So you're saying that even though they kidnap people, replace them with dopplegangers, and turn innocent farmers into Supermutants for Lulz, as well as wiping out entire settlements to plunder them for parts... Oh and kill anyone that tries to unify the Commonwealth... They should not be feared because they "have no plan"?

They are basically Evil Incarnate, but it doesn't matter because...?

[Balmas]

So you're saying that even though they kidnap people, replace them with dopplegangers, and turn innocent farmers into Supermutants for Lulz, as well as wiping out entire settlements to plunder them for parts... Oh and kill anyone that tries to unify the Commonwealth... They should not be feared because they "have no plan"?

They are basically Evil Incarnate, but it doesn't matter because...?

Lemme draw you a comparison. Imagine a street gang, right? Doing crime things--busting up shops and people, destroying businesses, shoplifting and stealing. But they're just doing it for fun and pocket change, there's no pattern to it, and no overarching goal. Often, criminals work against each other thanks to poor coordination.

Now imagine that same gang, but with leadership. Now it's organized crime. The actions taken are done in order to destabilize the area, to make sure that the police have no power, that the gang is the one people turn to when things need to get done. They're strong, they work together, their actions are coordinated for maximum effect.

Which gang is scarier? The disjointed group of criminals, or the organized mob?

It's the same way with the Institute. Right now, their operations are disjointed, scattered, working at cross purposes. Their actions are evil, yeah, but hardly organized. They're only threatening because there's no organized competing faction until the Brotherhood arrives. They're nothing compared to what they might be with some actual organization. Instead of sporadically replacing farmers, they could seize control of the region.

[Mando Knight]

Well, letting other people trying to survive in the wasteland have the protection too would be nice.

They do... kind of. Power armor, mini-nukes, laser guns, and giant robots are expensive and difficult to maintain, and can offer an extreme power multiplier (even the scavenged trash heap plating used by Raiders lucky enough to stumble on a Power Armor frame is stronger than the heaviest non-powered armor in FO4). The (East Coast) Brotherhood offers that protection as a service to supply caravans (along with backing Project Purity, an important part of securing control of the Capital Wasteland) and those who need to get a little more hands-on can sign up themselves.

Also, once the Brotherhood arrives in force, Vertibird raids on Super Mutants

IIRC, the BoS and the Minutemen are compatible factions. They destroy enemies they deem to be a threat, or seize technology that is a threat in and of itself.

Every joinable faction can be compatible with the Minutemen since you become their leader in a very short order. The only exception is the Nuka-World Raiders, who are diametrically opposed to them (and basically serve as an alternate settler faction if you hate Preston).

If anything the Institute embodies everything the Brotherhood tries to correct.

Elder Maxson basically says as much when you first arrive on the Prydwen. The Institute is basically just another remnant of the horrifyingly unethical Pre-War scientific community (see also: Vault-Tec, West Tek, and Big MT, all responsible for creating abominations "for SCIENCE!"). The Brotherhood response isn't perfect either (it's rather unflinchingly dogmatic, which leads to the conflict with the Railroad as well as the rest of the Commonwealth's fear that they might be next), but their assessment of the problem is mostly correct.

[Triaxx]

So... Kill it with Nuclear Fire before it lays eggs?

Honestly, if the plan was indeed to seize control, and use Synth's to improve lives, or even assert control and deal with Raiders but it's not. It's to use the Commonwealth as a breeding farm for test subjects, and bury their heads further and further in the sand.

And the only reason FEV was shut down is because Virgil destroyed the place. His notes clearly have him explain they were continuing long past the point they'd learned it was a dead end.

[Alex Knight]

I'll say it again, the Institute could be relabeled "Vault-Tec" and nothing about its operations would need to change. Look at the history of the various Vaults. Then look at the experiments the Institute carries out on the surface. What's the difference?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Now that you put it that way, this sounds almost like the exact gist of the main storyline... I feel betrayed!!

Just keep progressing down the main storyline, you'll get there

[Avilan the Grey]

My plan for provisioners is to Map them in such a way, even if they are redundant. that they will cover most main roads. I also prioritize armament depending on location and distance. So the one that goes from Abernathy farm is just a Mr Handy based one. The one from Red Rocket is just a protectron base. But longer distances and more dangerous locations? Bring out the heavy duty stuff.

[Triaxx]

Give the one to Abernathy a Melee and Automatic weapon. Lot's of dogs seem to spawn there and it takes forever to get rid of them with just melee or just guns.

[Avilan the Grey]

Give the one to Abernathy a Melee and Automatic weapon. Lot's of dogs seem to spawn there and it takes forever to get rid of them with just melee or just guns.

Ballsy, as she is named is a Mr Handy base with one eye, assaultron arms with stealth blade and optimized for bleeding damage. No tentacles.
Also... dogs? 99% of the time it's Gunners for me, and if not it's mutants. Once it was dual rad scorpions.

[Spore]

So... Kill it with Nuclear Fire before it lays eggs?

Which brings up the weird point that the Brotherhood knows atomic weapons destroyed ALL of civizilation but use them anyway? Yeah, nice safekeeping of technology there, Maxson.

And the only reason FEV was shut down is because Virgil destroyed the place. His notes clearly have him explain they were continuing long past the point they'd learned it was a dead end.

Did he destroy any material so that continuing FEV experiments was unfeasible? Or did Shaun shut down the research for good?

Elder Maxson basically says as much when you first arrive on the Prydwen. The Institute is basically just another remnant of the horrifyingly unethical Pre-War scientific community (see also: Vault-Tec, West Tek, and Big MT, all responsible for creating abominations "for SCIENCE!"). The Brotherhood response isn't perfect either (it's rather unflinchingly dogmatic, which leads to the conflict with the Railroad as well as the rest of the Commonwealth's fear that they might be next), but their assessment of the problem is mostly correct.

Yeah, still the player character is or can be the scope of sanity in this twisted dilemma. Or could've been since siding with the Institute is basically the Genocide ending of Fallout 4.

[factotum]

Which brings up the weird point that the Brotherhood knows atomic weapons destroyed ALL of civizilation but use them anyway? Yeah, nice safekeeping of technology there, Maxson.

That's entirely in character for the Brotherhood--technology is only bad if it's in somebody else's hands, so long as the BoS control it everything's good.

[Spore]

That's entirely in character for the Brotherhood--technology is only bad if it's in somebody else's hands, so long as the BoS control it everything's good.

Yeah not just boys keeping all the cool stuff to themselves and yelling: "No, give that to me. You're gonna break it anyway."

Goodness gracious, now I have a playground argument in my mind. The bully Maxxie steals everyone's techy toys. The nerdy Shaun keeps to himself, pulling wings from insects and trying to program his LEGO Technic robot to respond to button presses. Little Preston always pesters Mom to intervene while Little Desdemona - her parents are English majors - explains to her friends how her dolly has to have almost the same rights as a real human.

It's hilarious and I sadly lack the artistic talent to frame that. It reminds me of Muppet Babies somehow...

[VoxRationis]

I've said this before: The big problem with the institute is that they have on coherent plan. Their goals and methods change with every new Director. If they had one, clear mission statement, and every Director worked toward that one goal, they would be more of a force to be reckoned with. But, instead, they flop around like a fish out of water, for the most part. Sure, they have synths operating on the surface, and they still replace people from time to time, but that seems to be more of a "gathering resources and information" play than anything else. Mayor Quimby is a Synth, and his sole purpose for existance seems to be to control the flow of information in Diamond City (Piper) and report anything of note back to the institute. And not much else.

Their coherent plan is what it has always been: they conduct research. The Institute is a research institution from before the war. Their only purpose has ever been to conduct research. All that other stuff is supporting their grand goal of conducting research. That's why they aren't doing anything major with their synth infiltrators: the infiltrators are already doing what the Institute needs of them, which is to provide information and enough disruption that the Institute can prevent coherent opposition from forming. If the Enclave had synths, they would do something more with Quimby, but that's the difference between the two organizations: the Enclave furthers science in order to gain political domination, while the Institute achieves political control in order to further science.

[Avilan the Grey]

Their coherent plan is what it has always been: they conduct research. The Institute is a research institution from before the war. Their only purpose has ever been to conduct research. All that other stuff is supporting their grand goal of conducting research. That's why they aren't doing anything major with their synth infiltrators: the infiltrators are already doing what the Institute needs of them, which is to provide information and enough disruption that the Institute can prevent coherent opposition from forming. If the Enclave had synths, they would do something more with Quimby, but that's the difference between the two organizations: the Enclave furthers science in order to gain political domination, while the Institute achieves political control in order to further science.

All this can be summarized in two words:

For Science!

[LibraryOgre]

I'll say it again, the Institute could be relabeled "Vault-Tec" and nothing about its operations would need to change. Look at the history of the various Vaults. Then look at the experiments the Institute carries out on the surface. What's the difference?

In a way, that would be cooler. Descendants of the actual Vault-Tec scientists, invovled in the experiments? It would certainly play oddly for the Sole Survivor... On the one hand, Vault Tec saved your life. On the other hand, the Institute killed your spouse and stole most of your son's life from you.

[Spore]

Well, Vault 111's experiments are certainly lacking in that sinister twist most Vault-Tec experiments have. It is really a thing that struck me as odd and not very "fallout-like" in FO 4. Vault-Tec and Vaults are not the focus of the game

[Triaxx]

Vault-Tec has never been the primary focus of Fallout. Indeed though some of it's best moments have come when people said No! to the experiments. 81, 75, 11, although 11 was a secret test of character that they all failed.

[Togath]

Well, Vault 111's experiments are certainly lacking in that sinister twist most Vault-Tec experiments have. It is really a thing that struck me as odd and not very "fallout-like" in FO 4. Vault-Tec and Vaults are not the focus of the game

Admittedly, the frozen specimens were never intended to ever be revived(and were seemingly expected to eventually all die).

[Triaxx]

I thought they were and the idea was direct transplantation.

Wild theory: Vault-Tec started the war as an ultimate test. Since they knew when it would start, it ensured maximum number of test subjects.

[Togath]

Iirc, that's actually one of the common theories. That or the Zetans having helped prod it to starting.