Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Parra]

So I noticed that the Sisters of Battle only get, what, a single half-paragraph of text and a single character in a larger splash in the entire Advanced Rules book. What are the chances that they're just being discontinued altogether?

plenty of the factions/chapters and sub-groups only got a quick blurb. Odds are there will be detailed codexes coming out in the fullness of time that will flesh all these things out. With the amount of changes between 7th & 8th they needed to redo every single faction for release as the old stuff was defunct

[Cheesegear]

What are the chances that [Sisters]'re just being discontinued altogether?

I think pretty slim.
I also think that no-one currently working at/for GW right now knows what they're doing with Sisters except to make 'bad Space Marines', which obviously isn't what they want to do.

I think 'discontinued' is a strong word. More like 'wont receive new models/rules for a long time'. So...Situation normal, really.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Does anybody have any experience with Knights (Imperial or Traitor) in the new edition? They are pretty expensive in both $$$ and points, but they are also big beefy things with big guns.

Hell, open the question up to Lords of War in general. Worth?

[Gauntlet]

Does anybody have any experience with Knights (Imperial or Traitor) in the new edition? They are pretty expensive in both $$$ and points, but they are also big beefy things with big guns.

Hell, open the question up to Lords of War in general. Worth?

They're generally very durable if you can protect them from deep striking assassination.

Usually provide pretty good killing power when it comes to taking out other large single targets, like enemy Lords of War. Can't be pinned down in combat, and generally both resilient to small arms fire and will kill many characters, which is a good combination to have available.

They're generally a ton of points compared to the damage output you get, though. Basically I think they're at their best when you already have a lot of high-output attacks already, and have access to some bubblewrap too, and just need something to take down enemy titanic stuff and scary characters.

Obviously depends on the unit and the points costs.

[Cheesegear]

Hell, open the question up to Lords of War in general. Worth?

Depends on your opponents.
If your opponent can't deal with something that has 24 Wounds, then it will be as good as anything that your opponents can't deal with. Unfortunately, many of the better players who know what they're doing, will be taking almost every S5 - if not S6 - upgrade that they can get their hands on. Which means that against nearly every opponent who is any good, your opponents will deal with your 20+W, generally within 3 Turns. Since every unit can 'split fire', it's not even that hard. Generally, against such opponents, if you're bringing one 20+W model, you'd better be bringing two...Or at least some way to heal them. To my knowledge, there's no way to heal an Imperial Knight. However, Techmarines can heal Terminus Ultras, so there you go.

In my experience, your 20+W model is designed to be run at opposing 20+W models. If your opponent doesn't have any of those, you don't really need them (or you need two!). Your Damage 4+ weapons just don't mean anything to Infantry models.

[LeSwordfish]

I faced one knight geared out for maximum dakka, and didn't try to hurt it. It did, however, kill at least one unit per turn at range.

I also faced two normal knights at once in another game, and managed to kill one. They're nasty - the same sort of nasty where i still think it's vaguely unsportsmanlike to take them without warning your opponent - but definitely killable.

[Requizen]

Multiple Knights is strong. Yes anything can hurt them, but they'll do their best to kill anything that "counters" them and then you have to plink through 24 wound models afterwards, while they wipe things off the board.

One is not as bad. If you have multiple units that can deal d6 damage, he can really only ensure one dies per turn, and then you can kill it before it goes out of control.

Superheavies in general feel quite good in 8th. Yes more things can hurt them, but generally they will jot get gibbed in a single turn. They do feel more appropriately priced than 7th, thank goodness.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

I'm still not sure if I want to go the superheavy route. Doesn't seem like the local players have any. We seem to be space marines, csm, and one guy with custodes.

Aside, would it be legit to have the Dark Imperium Lord of Contagion "counts as" Typhus? They are very similar, and the LOC mini is so over detailed that you can pretend there's a Destroyer Hive in there somewhere. Crunch-wise, I see no reason to take a LOC over Mr. T (he costs 20 points less and does more).

[Cheesegear]

If you have multiple units that can deal d6 damage, he can really only ensure one dies per turn, and then you can kill it

One D6 per unit. Is that all? A dedicated unit will do D6 Damage per model. LoWs get chunked extremely quickly in 8th. That's why you need two.

[YossarianLives]

Hey all,

I'm just getting into 40k, and I was hoping you folks could answer some questions? This forum is a lot less intimidating than reddit.

Firstly, I'm thinking of playing dark eldar (I'm not sure if that's a bad choice for a new player - I've never played a wargame before, and only painted a handful of my old HeroQuest miniatures.) but I don't really like their lore, so I was planning on playing them as refluffed eldar coirsairs. As such, I plan on having an army compromised only of standard eldar and vehicles - none of the homunculus, pain-engines wracks or gross animals. Can that be a viable army?

Secondly, am I the only one who was surprised at how small the models are? I visited my local GW the other day, just to look around, and all the display models looked tiny compared to the pictures I had seen.

[boomwolf]

What pictures?

Because dark eldar models are...not very big...



Anyway, if you want corsairs, using purely craftworld makes not much sense. corsairs are closer to dark than craftworld

H owever, eldar recently got a "new faction" that is the ynnari, who have most of the craftworld stuff avilable, plus most dark eldar "normal" stuff (like the gunboats, infantry and such, but no homunculus and stuff), these could be a useful mid-point to start your jurny.


Alternatevly, forgeworld has actual corsairs, but I've yet to actually see their rules-so I can't comment there much. most of their models are kitbashing/upgrade kits, and/or directly taking eldar/dark eldar models as their own.

[Theodoric]

Secondly, am I the only one who was surprised at how small the models are? I visited my local GW the other day, just to look around, and all the display models looked tiny compared to the pictures I had seen.

Yeah, they look a lot bigger on the website, all zoomed-in and without background, than on a display case on a table across the room. Once you're actually getting to painting them though, they're usually more than big enough.

[Drasius]

Anyway, if you want corsairs, using purely craftworld makes not much sense. corsairs are closer to dark than craftworld

H owever, eldar recently got a "new faction" that is the ynnari, who have most of the craftworld stuff avilable, plus most dark eldar "normal" stuff (like the gunboats, infantry and such, but no homunculus and stuff), these could be a useful mid-point to start your jurny.


Alternatevly, forgeworld has actual corsairs, but I've yet to actually see their rules-so I can't comment there much. most of their models are kitbashing/upgrade kits, and/or directly taking eldar/dark eldar models as their own.

Fairly sure he meant taking stuff like kabalites/raiders/venoms/ravagers/wyches etc, not kraftworlders, just none of the coven units.

Recommending FW to someone just starting out (even if it does sound like what they're after), especially in a new edition and then doubly so again on top of that when there have been nothing but condemnation for the low quality of the rushed FW 8th ed books probably isn't the best move.

As to if collecting DE is for you (not you, boomwolf), especially if you are going to restrict the units you want to take by not having coven stuff, then it's going to depend on how the people you game with view things. If (and it's a big if, I haven't looked at DE at all and have barely touched any 8th ed stuff at all) they play super-competitively, there's a real chance you could get crushed, but from everything I've heard so far, beyond a fair amount of blandness, most things are generally reasonably balanced to the point where you no longer lose just because you put [bottom tier faction] on the table (eg DE vs Tau, Orks vs Eldar, Non-Gladius anything vs Eldar in 7th). There's still armies and builds that're going to struggle, and certain things still suck, but generally, buy the models you like the look of and you can put them on the table without feeling too bad about it.

I'm sure our resident DE fanboy will be here shortly to tell you all about them though, so (as usual), listen to Cheese.

[boomwolf]

Well, as said, I have yet to actually see the FW eldar, so I can't quite comment on them, I just know they exist.

But sometimes, even for a beginner FW is the right path.
If someone wants a traitor guard, I would not have pointed him towards regular guard, or GSC, because they are similar-but not the same. and the real army DOES exist, even if in a slightly more...difficult...manner.


In any case, seems like I misunderstood him a bit.
Using CWE infantry and DE vehicles sounds like ynnari really would fit, as they can take the actual mix, rather than "count-as"


As for how viable any of this is-8th is too young, we are not quite sure yet.
What IS an issue, is taking pure DE, and locking yourself out of half the army. that's just a serius lack of options, and without CWE tools to back them up, they kina need the monsters, beast, mutants and such.

[Blackhawk748]

Kabalites in Raiders still work, especially now since they are on the short list of people who can shoot out of their vehicle, so this concept is probably viable.

[Cheesegear]

Firstly, I'm thinking of playing dark eldar (I'm not sure if that's a bad choice for a new player - I've never played a wargame before, and only painted a handful of my old HeroQuest miniatures.) but I don't really like their lore, so I was planning on playing them as refluffed eldar coirsairs.

Eldar Corsairs, eh?
Okay. First up. You're playing 'Aeldari' now. If you start to get hung up on Craftworlds vs. Kabals, you're in for a bad time. You play both now. The only thing separating Craftworlds and Kabals, is a paint scheme. Look up 'Dark Eldar Wraithknight'. It doesn't matter. Do whatever you want. The rules of 8th Ed. mean that if your models share at least one Keyword, then you're the same army. It's even better for the short term, because Drukhari and Asuryani are in the same book. If you have one's rules, you have the other's. It's nothing like forcing a GK player (Imperium I) to buy a second book (Imperium II) for access to MTs.

Whatever. Point is, each model is going to have Keywords. You need to stop thinking in terms of 'Factions' (even though GW wants you to think that way), and start thinking in terms of Keywords. The one that matters to you, is Aeldari.

As such, I plan on having an army compromised only of standard eldar and vehicles - none of the homunculus, pain-engines wracks or gross animals. Can that be a viable army?

Oh ****. You just said the magic words. You know what happens when an Aeldari player wants to ditch Coven units?
By your Powers Combined...
You play Ynnari, now. All the rules are in the one book that you need. There are barely any restrictions on playing Ynnari, but as far as Drukhari are concerned, their only restriction is 'No Coven Units' (or Drazhar, for reasons...). If you don't want to use any of the Asuryani units, you don't have to. Nothing forces you to. Except for a cool guy on the internet telling that that it literally doesn't matter, and if you wanted to, you could paint Spiritseer & Wraithknight (because obviously) black and neon green if you really wanted to, and it would still be on Theme. If you wanted Coven Units, I'd be saying different things. But you don't. So that's where we're at.

Ynnari are extremely strong because they interrupt the flow of the game without using Command Points - which means you still get to use your Command Points for even more interrupts. So, yes. No Coven Units is very viable. If you want to use Asuryani/Craftworld units, there's literally nothing stopping you. If you don't...That's cool, too. But if you're explicitly not taking Coven Units, and calling yourself 'Dark Eldar', instead of 'Ynnari'; You're doing it wrong.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm looking at flogging some Space Marine stuff since I haven't touched my Fire Hawks in a while and can probably trim out some of the things I didn't like or play much, and especially stuff I never painted. Are any of the following units so fantastic they're not worth selling?

• Land Speeder Typhoons
• Land Speeder Storms
• Centurion Devastators

[Gauntlet]

I'm looking at flogging some Space Marine stuff since I haven't touched my Fire Hawks in a while and can probably trim out some of the things I didn't like or play much, and especially stuff I never painted. Are any of the following units so fantastic they're not worth selling?

• Land Speeder Typhoons
• Land Speeder Storms
• Centurion Devastators

Typhoons don't seem great now that moving and shooting the Typhoon launcher makes you BS4+.

Storms look better than Typhoons, and generally pretty handy to have since they make Scouts a lot more durable. ~100 points is quite a lot, though. Might be worth keeping hold of a couple.

Centurion Devastators seem good, but ~100 ppm is quite a lot. There's probably better places to get heavy weapons now, although they aren't terrible.

[Forum Explorer]

Hey all,

I'm just getting into 40k, and I was hoping you folks could answer some questions? This forum is a lot less intimidating than reddit.

Firstly, I'm thinking of playing dark eldar (I'm not sure if that's a bad choice for a new player - I've never played a wargame before, and only painted a handful of my old HeroQuest miniatures.) but I don't really like their lore, so I was planning on playing them as refluffed eldar coirsairs. As such, I plan on having an army compromised only of standard eldar and vehicles - none of the homunculus, pain-engines wracks or gross animals. Can that be a viable army?

Secondly, am I the only one who was surprised at how small the models are? I visited my local GW the other day, just to look around, and all the display models looked tiny compared to the pictures I had seen.

Have you read the Ynnari fluff? They have stupidly strong abilities, have access to all of Craftworld and the non coven Dark Eldar stuff, and can combine it together freely. Even if none of the Craftworld stuff interests you, the Dark Eldar stuff you do like does very well with Ynarri rules.

And yes, it is very viable. Dark Eldar got a massive buff in that they are one of the few factions who can shoot out of transports, their transports can move at their full speed without penalty (IIRC), splitfire means you can always have your blasters and splinter guns going into appropriate targets, and a 5+ save isn't ignored by 99% of the game anymore (more like 65%, but hey progress). So playing a Corsair Fleet with everyone in Raiders and Venoms works really really well. Oh, and also Psykers received a massive nerf, so not having access to Psykers (if you are only using Dark Eldar units) isn't so devastating.


On a different note, are Wraithknights still really OP?

[YossarianLives]

Thanks for the quick and informative answers, everyone! I looked into Ynnari, and they seem really cool, so I'll probably go with them. I had considered the forgeworld models, but I honestly prefer the DE aesthetic.

[Gauntlet]

On a different note, are Wraithknights still really OP?

They're pretty similar to Imperial Knights now. Hard to take down, good at killing single large enemies, but not particularly great against hordes and cost a ton of points. Like, about 600 for a barebones one. Deteriorating over time also makes them a bit easier to deal with. Defensively they are a little worse than before (compared to a Knight they now lose an invuln and are otherwise the same).

[bluntpencil]

Thanks for the quick and informative answers, everyone! I looked into Ynnari, and they seem really cool, so I'll probably go with them. I had considered the forgeworld models, but I honestly prefer the DE aesthetic.

You could mix up the models a bit, using parts from both Eldar and Dark Eldar, and use the rules which you find work better for you. They'd look like a mix of Commorite and Craftworld Eldar that way, too.

[Rizhail]

You could mix up the models a bit, using parts from both Eldar and Dark Eldar, and use the rules which you find work better for you. They'd look like a mix of Commorite and Craftworld Eldar that way, too.

A useful tip on the above: harlequin, DE, and CWE plastic models are mostly compatible with each other with a bit of work (file, green stuff, etc), and if you're doing that kind of conversion work you can also easily incorporate the (a)elves from fantasy/AoS since they're all the same size and proportions. If all you want is minimal effort kit bashing that still looks good, a few things to note:

-The three lines of plastic models all have different connections between torsos and legs (e.g. DE torsos have a ball and legs have a socket, harlequins are the opposite) so mixing those doesn't work without a lot of effort. Found out the hard way.
-Heads, on the other hand, swap easily. Bare wych heads make for great female seer conversions, for instance.
-DE and harlequin infantry have the same arm connections, so you can swap between the ranges easily. Can make for some ...interesting... poses, though.

An example (at work on break, so no pics right now): my Ynnari howling banshees use hellion and wych bodies, wych legs, masked hellion heads, and harlequin shuriken pistols and swords. It makes for a unit with DE aesthetics and in plastic, but still WYSIWYG right down to the masks.

[Drasius]

... so (as usual), listen to Cheese.

... 'Dark Eldar Wraithknight'.

Ok, mistakes have been made. Selectively listen to Cheese.

Well, as said, I have yet to actually see the FW eldar, so I can't quite comment on them, I just know they exist.

But sometimes, even for a beginner FW is the right path.
If someone wants a traitor guard, I would not have pointed him towards regular guard, or GSC, because they are similar-but not the same. and the real army DOES exist, even if in a slightly more...difficult...manner.

Actually, traitor guard are in a horrible place at the moment as they're literally worse in virtually every way (other than Ld, which doesn't matter because commissars exist) than regular guard but cost more points. There's been a huge backlash about it, though part of me doesn't have as much sympathy as I should given how silly strong they were in 7th. Not only that, by bringing FW, either 1 of 3 things happen;
1) You don't get a game because your meta is strictly no FW allowed
2) You get a game, but then everyone else feels that it's OK to bring their selectively purchased OP FW models
3) You get a game because your meta normally plays FW and nobody cares
So I'd strongly advise checking your local metas stance on FW before you (anyone that is) devote yourself to a FW army.

[Requizen]

Any Guard players have feedback on the Baneblade variants? They all seem pretty similar but slightly different. Are they worth taking over a Knight?

[Theodoric]

Any Guard players have feedback on the Baneblade variants? They all seem pretty similar but slightly different. Are they worth taking over a Knight?

They actually have rather different roles. The Baneblade and Hellhammer (same kit) are more (much) bigger versions of the Leman Russ, while others (the Shadowsword kit) have their own niches, usually either heavy transport or simply a heavy gun of some sort.

So, it really depends on what you want to do with it. For a general purpose a Baneblade's not any worse than a Knight, possibly better. The Shadowsword varieties have their own niches, plenty of which come up rather rarely; if you're up against other Knights or heavy vehicles the base Shadowsword is excellent, and if you want to transport stuff the Banehammer/Doomhammer's an option (Stormlord's probably overkill unless you really like the Vulcan Mega Bolter), while for cityfights and the like the Stormsword's pretty ace.
The only one that's really pointless IMO is the Banesword, since it can't fire indirectly anymore. Might as well get a bunch of Basilisks.

Unlike Knights though, they do need some sort of support/screening (especially the Shadowsword variants). If you want to use one you'd better build the rest of your army around it.

[Cheesegear]

On a different note, are Wraithknights still really OP?

No. Simply because wounds from one shot don't carry across multiple models. Heavy Wraithcannons in 7th annihilated everything because Str-D treated everyone equally - 'You're dead'. The changes to the Wound table mean that a Wraithknight will be doing Wounds against relatively equal targets on 3s, rather than 2s. But, as with all 'big stuff', doing D6 damage per shot doesn't mean anything to Infantry because wounds don't carry over. A Heavy Wraithcannon kills one Infantry model. It's just not very good, unless you're dealing with single targets (i.e; Other Lords of War). A Wraithknight's killing power is now found in the Suncannon; Heavy 2D6, S6, -3, D3. Good news is you get the Scattershield to go with it.

In Melee, the Wraithknight can dominate other Walkers, doing 6 Damage per hit - not D6...6. - at S16, wounding on 2s against T8 everything with a Ghostglaive, and that's hot. But, again, against Infantry, 6 Damage doesn't mean anything.

As with most <Titanic> models, the only reason to have a Titan model, is if your opponent has one. And sometimes not even then.

Any Guard players have feedback on the Baneblade variants? They all seem pretty similar but slightly different. Are they worth taking over a Knight?

So far the Stormlord is my favourite. Similar to the Wraithknight - and Imperial Knight - doing eleventy billion damage with one shot is well and good. But the game isn't about that - currently. The game is currently about spamming Infantry models on Objectives - because that's how you win the game - and the Vulcan Mega-Bolter can deal with that. It's also S6, so that's the magic number to bring everything to 5s, and the -2 and 2 Damage per hit (20 shots) will even chunk down opposing Vehicles. The Stormlord is literally useful against everything. Which means that even if your opponent doesn't bring a Titan of their own, your Stormlord will still have something to do.

I'm also a fan of the Hellhammer.

[Blackhawk748]

So i got a look at Imperial Index 2 last night, and im happy but not with my Ad Mech. The changes to Infiltrators Neurostatic Aura bugs me, as now it just lowers Ld, Ruststalkers are now better and worse (no AP, but do Mortal Wounds on a To Wound of 6+) Vanguard didnt get nerfed or buffed they just sort of slid over, Rangers are great, the Plasma Caliver being Assault 2 pisses me off (even thought it got cheaper), Haywire is still solid, and Canticles are quite meh now.

Canticles are what bugs me most, cuz its just the lowest level of the old ones, and that is not at all impressive.

[Cheesegear]

Things...

Vehicles having 360 LoS and the Vehicles' own hull not blocking LoS is really, really good. You measure range from the weapon, but LoS is drawn from any point on the model. Means Fliers are nowhere near as bad as you think. Going off the board is...Bad. But it doesn't really matter where you are on the board 'cause you can shoot backwards. Turret/Sponson LoS is not a thing. If the weapon is in range, you can shoot it.

Flamer-esque weapons are not helpful on SUA (9") units, since most Flamer-esque weapons only have an 8" range. That'll learn me.

Turns out that most <Titan> type models generally come with a 'Stomp' style attack giving them 3 attacks for every 1 on their profile. Titans are not too bad against massed Infantry in Melee.

[Turalisj]

I learned the "don't deepstrike flamers" rule pretty fast. And don't expect to charge without a reroll or other bonus.