Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XIV: The Emperor Floats Those Who Float Themselves

[bluntpencil]

That is the superstitious explanation for the Marines knowing how to take care of their specific weapons and other people not knowing.

...Astartes Ranged weapons count as one Class heavier to anyone lacking in Space Marine physiology. For example a Pistol is a Basic weapon; a Basic weapon is Heavy, and so on. Furthermore, Astartes weapons impose a –30 penalty to all Tests made with them by presumptuous mortals due to improper scale, weight, and/or recoil— even in power armour. The GM may also choose to impose other problems from the rebellious machine spirit based on the nature of a weapon (a plasma weapon may require Toughness Tests from routine heat venting; a power weapon may run the risk of feedback, etc). Space Marines may use weapons scaled for normal humans without penalty if they choose, although the GM may wish to require that the Space Marine take an extra action or two to remove parts that get in the way (such as the trigger guard or the stock!).

From the Deathwatch RPG.

Basically, they're too big and dangerous.

[Wraith]

In the Emperor's Gift, a human Inquisitor uses an Astartes Boltor that has to have "anti-grav studs" built into the casing to make it safe for her. Without them, it's stated that the recoil would break her ribs and probably dislocate her shoulder.

[GolemsVoice]

It's stated a few times in various books (RPG and otherwise) that humans can, theoretically, use SM weaponry, it's just that almost no ordinary human can actually lift and fire them, since they're build for people who are almost twice as big and strong as any normal man.

[Cikomyr]

I suppose a human can use their weapons as easily as a 12 year old can use standard adult combat guns.

With sufficient training and discipline, but not optimaly

[Blackhawk748]

I suppose a human can use their weapons as easily as a 12 year old can use standard adult combat guns.

With sufficient training and discipline, but not optimaly

And by chopping several inches off the stock.

[Platinius]

A somewhat normal human soldier wouldn't use a SM Bolter like a normal service rifle aynway, it would be used like a heavy machine gun. Which is something they actually do, just not with SM Bolters but with Heavy Bolters made with standard humans in mind and fired from a tripod.

A SM Bolter is made with a power armoured space marine in mind. The ergonomics, the digital interface and many other little arcane minutia lost on us techno barbarians from the beginning of the third millennium. I bet it is extra thick and sturdy because a SM has to beat orks or similar tough foes to death with it on a regular basis. (I am not saying recommended, but definitely accounted for)

The irony with SM Bolters is that they are actually a cheaper replacement for the Volkite Guns when demand outstripped production in the early Grand Crusade.

[Borgh]

The tau mobilizing a billion fire warriors is a Big Deal (do they even have that many?)

To the imperium mobilizing a billion guardsmen is called Tuesday, circa the second cup of recaff.

Remember, the Legions used to have Volkite guns as standard untill they became too hard to keep them stocked.

[Drasius]

Black Library releases for April:

Spoiler: Imperator

Show

Story of an Imperator Titan (Casus Belli) vs Chaos in the Dark Imperium defending a forgeworld

Spoiler: Legacy of Dorn

Show

Rynn's World, but from a different perspective.

Spoiler: Ferrus Manus

Show

Lol, Iron Hands, nobody cares.

Spoiler: Gaunts Ghosts Trilogy

Show

Exactly what is says on the tin.

Spoiler: WHF Chaos Omnibus

Show

Sigvald, Valkyia and Van Horstman stories.

Spoiler: Inquisition Audio Drama

Show

John French is great and Inquisition stories are great. What's not to like?

[Wraith]

Rynn's World, but from a different perspective.

Again? Really? Rynn's World was okay, but is there really a high demand for it to be described for a third time? Or that much relevance for a 'historical' story now that the Dark Imperium is a thing and the place that the story is set might not even exist any more?

[Drasius]

Again? Really? Rynn's World was okay, but is there really a high demand for it to be described for a third time? Or that much relevance for a 'historical' story now that the Dark Imperium is a thing and the place that the story is set might not even exist any more?

Don't shoot the messenger. Hey, it was probably either that or tell some Xeno story, and we can't have that now can we?

[Wraith]

Don't shoot the messenger. Hey, it was probably either that or tell some Xeno story, and we can't have that now can we?

Apologies Drasius, that was aimed more at GW in general than you specifically

In unrelated topic, I stopped by Warhammer World today and finally realised that they have installed a commemorative coin machine in the lobby; for £2 (about $2.70USD) it spits out one of these guys, and apparently they'll change the design a couple of times per month to make them interesting.

Spoiler

Show

They're about the size of a 10p piece (which is slightly smaller than a US quarter, I think?) and I think they're kinda neat. I might grab a few of them to use as objective markers - Imperial for one player, Chaos for the other, etc.

[Drasius]

Apologies Drasius, that was aimed more at GW in general than you specifically

In unrelated topic, I stopped by Warhammer World today and finally realised that they have installed a commemorative coin machine in the lobby; for £2 (about $2.70USD) it spits out one of these guys, and apparently they'll change the design a couple of times per month to make them interesting.

Spoiler

Show

They're about the size of a 10p piece (which is slightly smaller than a US quarter, I think?) and I think they're kinda neat. I might grab a few of them to use as objective markers - Imperial for one player, Chaos for the other, etc.

Don't worry mate, I was taking the piss.

Those coins are cool, the first thing I thought of when I saw them was that they'd make awesome objective markers, but then I saw you said they're the size of a small coin (I assume 10p is about the same size as our 10c piece). Still a nice idea, but would have been nice if they were a touch larger. Worth it for the cost though.

[Wraith]

Those coins are cool, the first thing I thought of when I saw them was that they'd make awesome objective markers, but then I saw you said they're the size of a small coin (I assume 10p is about the same size as our 10c piece). Still a nice idea, but would have been nice if they were a touch larger. Worth it for the cost though.

I've just compared with an actual coin, and it seems that the GW ones are slightly larger than I thought; let me try again, this time with a globally recognised scale for comparison.

Spoiler

Show

Hm, kinda wish I had cleaned the dust off that guy before using him in a picture... Oh well, I'll know for next time.

I should also issue the retraction; the designs on the coin are set to change every few months, not every month as I first said. Not entirely sure what I was going for there, but whatever it was got lost in translation.

[Drasius]

I've just compared with an actual coin, and it seems that the GW ones are slightly larger than I thought; let me try again, this time with a globally recognised scale for comparison.

That's much closer to what I imagined for an objective marker. Very cool.

[Cheesegear]

Deathwatch are SWAT. They are, simply put, regular (Veteran) Marines with experience, a vast knowledge pool, and more exotic weapons and devices than they actually know what to do with.
Grey Knights are ordinary Space Marines. But, they are a Chapter where every recruit is a Psyker. That's their gimmick. Their guns aren't any better or worse than regular Marines', and the only thing that the Grey Knights have going for them, is that they somehow managed to create Force Hammers, and then keep them all to themselves.

When you start comparing 'Who is better?' between Deathwatch and the Grey Knights, you'll eventually go around in circles. Deathwatch also fight Daemons, just as well as Grey Knights. Unfortunately, not every Deathwatch Marine is a Psyker, let alone psy-shielded, warded and daubed in the blood of martyrs. So, yeah. But what happens when GKs aren't fighting Daemons? ...Well, they fall back on being regular Space Marines who occasionally get to Force Weapon an enemy Commander.

Contrast to Custodes, who are essentially the Primarchs' half-brothers. The difference between Custodes and the Primarchs, is that the Emperor used the Warp to create Primarchs.
(Spoiler; Vengeful Spirit)

That said, the Custodes weren't efficient. Whereas creating Space Marines, was.

For what The Emperor was trying to do (Manifest Destiny), Space Marines really were his greatest creation, 'cause they were actually mass-producible, and thus, actually useful.

The problem, now, being that GW wants to sell models. Except if you only have enough models to barely fill out a pocket Patrol, you'll only buy one or two boxes (20, hard max) and then you're done with Custodes for the rest of your life. So, you have to make Custodes into their own army. Then you make Abaddon look like an idiot, by having every other one of your villian Factions just being able to teleport to Terra, and you involve the Custodes that way, 'cause Custodes don't really have a reason to leave Terra, ever. Because Terra is where The Emperor is, and why would they leave? They wouldn't. Magnus will come to them.

That said, Guilliman is The Emperor now, and why not have a literal army of Custodes follow him around the Galaxy? If you make 'The Emperor' ambulant again, then Custodes are also mobile.

[LansXero]

Deathwatch are SWAT. They are, simply put, regular (Veteran) Marines with experience, a vast knowledge pool, and more exotic weapons and devices than they actually know what to do with.
Grey Knights are ordinary Space Marines. But, they are a Chapter where every recruit is a Psyker. That's their gimmick. Their guns aren't any better or worse than regular Marines', and the only thing that the Grey Knights have going for them, is that they somehow managed to create Force Hammers, and then keep them all to themselves.

When you start comparing 'Who is better?' between Deathwatch and the Grey Knights, you'll eventually go around in circles. Deathwatch also fight Daemons, just as well as Grey Knights. Unfortunately, not every Deathwatch Marine is a Psyker, let alone psy-shielded, warded and daubed in the blood of martyrs. So, yeah. But what happens when GKs aren't fighting Daemons? ...Well, they fall back on being regular Space Marines who occasionally get to Force Weapon an enemy Commander.

Contrast to Custodes, who are essentially the Primarchs' half-brothers. The difference between Custodes and the Primarchs, is that the Emperor used the Warp to create Primarchs.
(Spoiler; Vengeful Spirit)

That said, the Custodes weren't efficient. Whereas creating Space Marines, was.

For what The Emperor was trying to do (Manifest Destiny), Space Marines really were his greatest creation, 'cause they were actually mass-producible, and thus, actually useful.

The problem, now, being that GW wants to sell models. Except if you only have enough models to barely fill out a pocket Patrol, you'll only buy one or two boxes (20, hard max) and then you're done with Custodes for the rest of your life. So, you have to make Custodes into their own army. Then you make Abaddon look like an idiot, by having every other one of your villian Factions just being able to teleport to Terra, and you involve the Custodes that way, 'cause Custodes don't really have a reason to leave Terra, ever. Because Terra is where The Emperor is, and why would they leave? They wouldn't. Magnus will come to them.

That said, Guilliman is The Emperor now, and why not have a literal army of Custodes follow him around the Galaxy? If you make 'The Emperor' ambulant again, then Custodes are also mobile.

Arent they gene-wired to Big E the individual and not the office / title? All of them know that Guilliman is nothing more than a genebred tool, no 'son of the emperor' or other nonsense. If anyone would ignore his claims, it would be them

[lord_khaine]

Arent they gene-wired to Big E the individual and not the office / title? All of them know that Guilliman is nothing more than a genebred tool, no 'son of the emperor' or other nonsense. If anyone would ignore his claims, it would be them

The word gene-wired doesnt make sense.

Anyway, if anything knowing Guilliman is the same as them should only make them respect him more. A son is only a random ½ of his fathers genes. Guilliman is a selectec expression of his father along with a ??? ingredient.
The Custodes know he is designed to be a leader.

But all the same i am also one to dislike getting more super specialt marine armies.

[Saambell]

I feel that if ANY Primarch was to get the custodes to do stuff outside of Terra, it would be Guilliman, just cause he is the diplomat. He's the guy who talks to people to get them to agree to do things.

On the note of more armies, we need a 5th faction of Eldar that isn't just "here's the three existing ones mashed together".

[Forum Explorer]

On the note of more armies, we need a 5th faction of Eldar that isn't just "here's the three existing ones mashed together".

What, the Exodites? I wouldn't mind rules for them, but they would only really fight defensively in the fluff.

I'd rather see full rules for Chaos Guard instead. Also I'm really hope that they create a new 'Beast' for the Orks. It's a good time for it I feel, with the Tyranids super powering them. Then the Tyranids evolve a Primarch killer.

Basically I want a Primach equivalent for each major faction.

The Eldar have Yncarne

The Orks can have Thraka or a new character.

The Imperium has Guilliman and (maybe) the Lion or Russ?

Chaos has Magnus and Mortarion

The Tyranids need something, but have lots of room in the fluff. Maybe eating some Custodes will 'inspire' the Hive Mind.

The Necrons need something, and I have no idea what.

The Dark Eldar should have Vect. Bring him back and make him awesome!

The Tau aren't a major faction.

[Drasius]

Given that Gulliman spoke to the Emperor, it wouldn't be out of the question to assume that He (Emps) sent a quick mental note to the various Custodes Custards to tell 'em to follow him and make sure he doesn't do anything stupid follow his orders.

As for factions, I'm going to be the voice of reason and say that we need 0 new factions before we get a) the remaining index only armies de-indexed and to a lesser extent b) have a better grasp on balancing things. I'm fully expecting the gold marines to be horrendously broken (one way or the other) on release because GW has a tradition of wildly over-valuing high saves and multi-wounds on infantry models but at the same time, I suspect that they will want them to be pretty good due to the fact that they're the literal golden children of the Emperor. Who knows, maybe we'll have an early Emperor's Ascencion miracle and they'll cancel each other out and they'll be balanced?

[Saambell]

Basically I want a Primach equivalent for each major faction.

The Eldar have Yncarne

The Orks can have Thraka or a new character.

The Imperium has Guilliman and (maybe) the Lion or Russ?

Chaos has Magnus and Mortarion

The Tyranids need something, but have lots of room in the fluff. Maybe eating some Custodes will 'inspire' the Hive Mind.

The Necrons need something, and I have no idea what.

The Dark Eldar should have Vect. Bring him back and make him awesome!

The Tau aren't a major faction.

For Nids, a reworked and buffed Swarm Lord would have been perfect. Or the next step up the Synopse chain.

Necrons could have had a named C'tan be that, but they chose not to use them. If its still canon that the C'Tan on the table are just shards, a Fully Operational C'Tan Being would work well. That or a HUGE command Barge.

Vect is a single man, but giving him a giant Talos Pain Engine borne throne or something would be neat.

T'au just need to put an Ethreal in a Storm Surge to have buffs with Guns, and done.

[Forum Explorer]

For Nids, a reworked and buffed Swarm Lord would have been perfect. Or the next step up the Synopse chain.

Necrons could have had a named C'tan be that, but they chose not to use them. If its still canon that the C'Tan on the table are just shards, a Fully Operational C'Tan Being would work well. That or a HUGE command Barge.

Vect is a single man, but giving him a giant Talos Pain Engine borne throne or something would be neat.

T'au just need to put an Ethreal in a Storm Surge to have buffs with Guns, and done.

The problem with the C'tan is that they are the enemies of the Necrons, so a full power one wouldn't work with them.

Vect canonically has a giant monolith that he uses as his command center. He also has a body double, and most importantly, has a tendency to deploy doomsday devices. So you could do a lot of stuff with him.

Nah.

[Cheesegear]

The Orks can have Thraka or a new character.

Orks just need another Beast.

The Tyranids need something

A unique Trygon Prime.

The Necrons need something, and I have no idea what.

Make the Tesseract Vault unBad.

I'm Done With You: Once per game, at the start of your Shooting phase, every unit on the board, except for models in a friendly Detachment that includes Anrakyr the Traveler, and the Tesseract Vault itself, takes D6 Mortal Wounds.

The Tau aren't a major faction.

Rekt.

[Forum Explorer]

Orks just need another Beast.



A unique Trygon Prime.



Make the Tesseract Vault unBad.

I'm Done With You: Once per game, at the start of your Shooting phase, every unit on the board, except for models in a friendly Detachment that includes Anrakyr the Traveler, and the Tesseract Vault itself, takes D6 Mortal Wounds.

Yeah, and I'm saying it should be Thraka. Unless it doesn't work like that.


That would be cool.


It's not really a unique sorta primarch equivalent though. That ability would be pretty funny though. Maybe move it to before reanimation protocols. But I like the idea of Necrons hitting everyone with an ability and then just healing back from it.

[Drasius]

Make the Tesseract Vault unBad.

I'm Done With You: Once per game, at the start of your Shooting phase, every unit on the board, except for models in a friendly Detachment that includes Anrakyr the Traveler, and the Tesseract Vault itself, takes D6 Mortal Wounds.

If you can take multiples of them via the shenanigans detatchment, well, that could possibly be a very quick game.

[Cheesegear]

If you can take multiples of them via the shenanigans detatchment, well, that could possibly be a very quick game.

Ideally, it would be Unique.

[Wraith]

Arent they gene-wired to Big E the individual and not the office / title? All of them know that Guilliman is nothing more than a genebred tool, no 'son of the emperor' or other nonsense. If anyone would ignore his claims, it would be them

Broadly speaking, yes.

Astartes inspire Transhuman Awe in ordinary humans; an instinctual feeling of fear, dread and terrified admiration for something that looks human but is so very, very different.

Primarchs instil something similar in Astartes, though 'fear' isn't quite the right word. It's an instinctual, gene-bred urge to admire and obey, especially strong with one's own Primarch and weaker in some cases. Very few people were ever in awe of Angron in the same way as they were of Fulgrim, whereas any such urge would have actively sabotaged Alpharius had it been present, for example, whereas Horus and Sanguinius seemed to command it even in Astartes not directly of their gene-lineage.

The Custodians did not have this urge instilled in them regarding the Primarchs; only to the Emperor, whom they adored as a literal father-figure. In terms of Imperial hierarchy the Primarchs outranked even the Custodes' Captain-General, but those Generals were one of the very few people who could physically stand to look someone like Guilliman in the eye, tell him 'no' and be prepared to back it up if they had to.

What, the Exodites? I wouldn't mind rules for them, but they would only really fight defensively in the fluff.

A lot of the fluff has changed, and it wouldn't be inconceivable for a new book to say something along the lines of "the Galaxy has been spit in two, the Exodites have been forced to reassess their priorities and with Chaos on the upsurge they can no longer wait for the fight to come to them" or something. They have just as much access to the webway as any other Eldar, after all.

I for one would love to see them come back. I have all sorts of ideas for them to be riding on "Cold Ones" with laser lances, or to have feral, savage-looking Wraith-constructs that they could ride into battle like giant wraithbone tigers and the likes. Their gimmick would be similar to the Circle Orboros in Warmahordes - they build stone Henges that can move about the place and grant buffs and/or teleport nearby units through them.

...Umm... Anyway....

Basically I want a Primach equivalent for each major faction.
The Orks can have Thraka or a new character.

Ghazghull goes to Namek Octavius in order to recruit the biggest concentration of Orks that eh knows of, spends a couple of years fighting 'Nids and literally goes Beast-mode while there, as in the titular novel series. It makes perfect sense from every angle.

The Imperium has Guilliman and (maybe) the Lion or Russ?
Chaos has Magnus and Mortarion

GW would be out of their mind if they didn't release all of the available Primarchs at some point in the near future. They're already set the precedent with the 30k game and with the current models as a working example of how their rules should work and how well their models would sell to gamers and hobbyists alike. Hell, I'll be surprised if they don't somehow find a way to bring back Sanguinius, Ferrus Mannus, Alpharius and the Night Haunter; there's many different ways, in-universe, that each could be achieved. The only one that they probably shouldn't do is Horus himself, as that would make redundant all of the Black Legion tie ins.

[deuterio12]

I mean, I don't disagree. I will say, though, that neither the Deathwatch nor the Grey Knights bother me the way the Custodes do. The Deathwatch, for all their hype and better gear, are still just ordinary Space Marines who've distinguished themselves and been promoted--they're not inherently more superhuman than any other Astartes (I think my comparison to IG veterans is genuinely appropriate). The Grey Knights, meanwhile, work for me as the one force that actually does outclass the Space Marines in the Imperium; it also helps that they're very clearly anti-Chaos specialists, so part of their awesomeness might come down less to generally superior badassery and more to being purpose-built for the one job they do. Maybe it's an arbitrary line, but the Custodes just seem like one tier to many to me--you can have the legendary super-soldiers, and you can have the guys who are rumored to be even better than that but may not even be real, but you can't then add more guys who are even better than those guys. Again, if that makes any sense.

Thing is, I still think there's a place for the Emperor's personal guard of elite Astartes in the fiction. Just make it another Deathwatch, a special force of the best Space Marines from other chapters. They'd still have their own niche separate from the Deathwatch, because of how specialized each force's function is.

...We should probably move this to the fluff thread if we keep talking about it.

But it doesn't stop at custards and GKs.

Because there's also stuff like imperial assassins (with weapons each worth more than a planet) and even scarcer in numbers than custards/GKs. And that time thunder warriors faced spech merines, each thunder warrior dragged 3 spech merines down with him. Then the primarchs themselves.

And of course all the new primaris dudes further push normal spech merines another step down.

We also got the sisters of silence popping up recently. Sure, suddenly the imperium has a force of tens of thousands of pariahs at hand, why not.

[Voidhawk]

What, the Exodites? I wouldn't mind rules for them, but they would only really fight defensively in the fluff.

Rulebook, page 167, "Craftworld Iyanden". Iyanden is attacked by a Slaaneshi warhost led by a Keeper of Secrets named N'Kisha, and is only saved by "...the sudden appearance of warhosts from all the Aeldari factions - craftworlds, Drukhari, Corsairs, Harlequins, Exodites, and Ynnari..."

Exodites do occasionally fight alongside other Eldar, in places other than their homeworlds, it's just a very rare event. More common than Custodes doing anything at all though.

I'd rather see full rules for Chaos Guard instead.

Forgeworld's "Lost and the Damned" has always been pretty cool. So long as what you want is massive quantities of basically useless troops and huge banks of towed artillery. (And I personally have inordinate fondness for the silly "20 Arvus Lighters" build from last edition.)

Really Guard just need a "Traitor Regiments" doctrine, with it's own Warlord Trait and Relic, that changes <Imperium> to <Chaos>.

Basically I want a Primach equivalent for each major faction.
...
The Tyranids need something, but have lots of room in the fluff. Maybe eating some Custodes will 'inspire' the Hive Mind.

The Necrons need something, and I have no idea what.

The Dark Eldar should have Vect. Bring him back and make him awesome!

The Tau aren't a major faction.

- Tyranids have Biotitans and the Swarmlord that fill those niches.
- Necrons just want the Transcendent C'Tan to get a boost closer to the original Apocalpyse version, when it had T9, could teleport, and vomit a Strength D Hellstorm template. Back then it was horribly OP, these days it would barely stand out next to Magnus and Mortarion.
- Dark Eldar having been praying for the return of Vect in his Pimpmobile since 5th edition, but on the very long list of "things the Dark Eldar need desperately" it's not even top 10.
- Tau have Farsight. He's Mr McAwesome, immortal, fights in melee with a giant sword, and doesn't afraid of anything. Plus his model and rules really needs an update (why is he still using XV8 armour, unlike literally everyone else?).

Of course none of that is going to happen, since 8th ed is "Imperium vs Chaos, no Xenos allowed, final destination".

[Brookshw]

A unique Trygon Prime.

No thanks, model's ugly. Give me something worth looking at please.