Reading Heir to the Empire

[Peelee]

Except the issue is that Star wars writers have proven to lack significant imagination for EVERYTHING, and they are obsessed over recreating every motifs from the movies.

Twilecks are dancers or gangsters
Hutts are gangsters
Wookies are warriors
Biths are musicians
Gammoreans are henchmen
Aqualish are bullies

A group of people insisting that the one feature we see on display just happens to be the generic trait of that specie would also latch on "Siths/Darksiders can be redeemed". Ya know, it happened in the movies, therefore is must be the norm!

Wookiees. 2 E's.

Also, aren't Twi'leks usually more slaves than gangsters?

[Keltest]

Except the issue is that Star wars writers have proven to lack significant imagination for EVERYTHING, and they are obsessed over recreating every motifs from the movies.

Twilecks are dancers or gangsters
Hutts are gangsters
Wookies are warriors
Biths are musicians
Gammoreans are henchmen
Aqualish are bullies

A group of people insisting that the one feature we see on display just happens to be the generic trait of that specie would also latch on "Siths/Darksiders can be redeemed". Ya know, it happened in the movies, therefore is must be the norm!

If you want to argue that Vader is abnormal in some way, you need to provide some evidence. Asking us to ignore a significant chunk of the material is kind of the opposite of that.

[pendell]

So far as Travis goes, I think Obi-wan and Anakin only get mentioned in the last book - Order 66. That's because the action takes place on Coruscant during the battle there, so they get a mention or two.

I actually enjoyed the books; there's not a lot of Jedi hatred in there and they're good counterinsurgency stories. I understand she went off the rocker in the Legacy of the Force series, so it's just as well I haven't read them. I found the Republic Commando books quite acceptable, especially Triple Zero.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Also, to go back a bit, I believe the Coruscant Nights series doesn't feature Obi-Wan. Does have Anakin, though, depending on your point of view.

[Cikomyr]

If you want to argue that Vader is abnormal in some way, you need to provide some evidence. Asking us to ignore a significant chunk of the material is kind of the opposite of that.

Because the dialogue of Obiwan and Yoda dont make any sense if redeeming darksiders was a somewhat uncommon occurance, instead of an absolute miracle.

[Keltest]

Because the dialogue of Obiwan and Yoda dont make any sense if redeeming darksiders was a somewhat uncommon occurance, instead of an absolute miracle.

It does when you consider that theyre warning Luke away from treating Vader like a potential ally against the Emperor instead of the threat that they perceive him to be. Theyre trying to stop Luke from risking himself needlessly, not give him a history lesson.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler

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I actually liked his interaction with the original C'baoth, though. Thrawn is normally very good at judging people, but he just cannot seem to handle C'baoth. He screws up with the original, first by thinking he can be reasoned with, then by underestimating the Force, and it almost costs him his life (instead, it costs him his bloodless victory). When he meets the clone, he knows not to repeat those mistakes: he's got ysalamiri to protect him from the Force, and he intends to use and manipulate C'baoth rather than try to work with him. But... he still thinks he can predict C'baoth, and ultimately he's wrong about that. C'baoth's ambition and mind control skills both move a little faster than Thrawn anticipates, and the only reason it doesn't explode spectacularly in his face is because Our Heroes intervene.

Spoiler: C'Baoth Thrawn Relations

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My reading of this book is that C'Baoth was thoroughly trounced. His ship was effectively disabled, every Jedi but Lorana was dead, and C'Baoth himself was heavily wounded. Thrawn didn't anticipate the Force choke, but that was immaterial really, the battle was lost and all it meant was instead of 'I push this button' , 'a man standing beside me pushes this button.' Not significant, especially in the face of 'I can use TF droids better than the TF, Interdictor fields better than the Vagaari, and anticipate the consequences of Force powers better than the Jedi. I knew nothing about any of these things two months ago'

Aside: One of my disappointments with TTT is that we never truly got a proper Thrawn/C'Baoth confrontation. They spent scene after scene building the tension, and then nothing happened. Might have been interesting to have Pellaeon take charge at Bilbringi (which would also show the trust and respect that was missing from their interactions) and take an ISD or two to lay siege to Mount Tantiss.

[Kish]

The plural of Sith is Sith, again.

I'm also amused in what I suspect was an unintended way by the claimed parallel: All dancers, all gangsters, all warriors, all musicians, all henchmen, all bullies, all not irredeemably evil.

[Cikomyr]

The plural of Sith is Sith, again.

I'm also amused in what I suspect was an unintended way by the claimed parallel: All dancers, all gangsters, all warriors, all musicians, all henchmen, all bullies, all not irredeemably evil.

I said motifs are repeated. Tropes. You can apply it to the most trivial up to the most important.

The Empire always build a superweapon
All people on Tatooine are moist farmers
All Protocol Droids are prancy
All correlians are good pilots
Bothans are spy

Etc.. etc.. the writers of the EU just wanted to recreate the stories and elements of the original movies. Everything seen there became an overall generic trait in their world building.

Except Zhan. Or Stackpole. You know, the non-hack writers.

[Kish]

That's nice, but it doesn't make "redeemable instead of irredeemably evil" stand out less in a list of one-note descriptions.

Perhaps if you added a few more nots. Not all Twi'leks are dancers...not all Hutts are gangsters...not all Sith are irredeemably evil...

[Aeson]

The plural of Sith is Sith, again.

You never know, it could be something akin to "fish" and "fishes," in which case Vader and Palpatine are two Sith but Revan and Palpatine (or Revan's Sith and Bane's Sith) are two Siths. There are probably enough differences between the various incarnations of the Sith Order that it could be argued that distinct plural forms are merited depending upon whether you refer to two or more individuals of the same Sith order/tradition or two or more (individuals of) different Sith orders/traditions. I don't think that there's any 'canonical' support for it, though I also can't recall any examples where various Sith traditions are discussed collectively in anything but very general terms or without including something like "order" or "empire" or the plural thereof after "Sith."

[The_Snark]

Spoiler: C'Baoth Thrawn Relations

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My reading of this book is that C'Baoth was thoroughly trounced. His ship was effectively disabled, every Jedi but Lorana was dead, and C'Baoth himself was heavily wounded. Thrawn didn't anticipate the Force choke, but that was immaterial really, the battle was lost and all it meant was instead of 'I push this button' , 'a man standing beside me pushes this button.' Not significant, especially in the face of 'I can use TF droids better than the TF, Interdictor fields better than the Vagaari, and anticipate the consequences of Force powers better than the Jedi. I knew nothing about any of these things two months ago'

Aside: One of my disappointments with TTT is that we never truly got a proper Thrawn/C'Baoth confrontation. They spent scene after scene building the tension, and then nothing happened. Might have been interesting to have Pellaeon take charge at Bilbringi (which would also show the trust and respect that was missing from their interactions) and take an ISD or two to lay siege to Mount Tantiss.

Spoiler: Outbound Flight and C'baoth

Show

Original-flavor C'baoth was beaten, yes, but Thrawn didn't anticipate him deciding to pull an Ahab and trying to take Thrawn down with him (as opposed to accepting defeat and not needing to go down at all). Or didn't anticipate that he would be able to do so effectively? One or the other. The button Doriana pushed was not supposed to be used on Outbound Flight, doing so ruined his plan to annihilate the Vagaari and resulted in a bunch of civilian casualties that Young Thrawn still cared enough to avoid.

I'm not trying to argue against his hypercompetence in general, but he did slip up here, and it cost him some.

Re the original trilogy: yeah, it's a bit odd that the struggle between clone-C'baoth and Thrawn never gets a chance to go off. Thrawn slips up again there, I believe, but it doesn't end up costing him because they both die anyway.

[Cikomyr]

That's nice, but it doesn't make "redeemable instead of irredeemably evil" stand out less in a list of one-note descriptions.

Perhaps if you added a few more nots. Not all Twi'leks are dancers...not all Hutts are gangsters...not all Sith are irredeemably evil...

I don't get what you are trying to achieve here

[hamishspence]

I actually enjoyed the books; there's not a lot of Jedi hatred in there and they're good counterinsurgency stories. I understand she went off the rocker in the Legacy of the Force series, so it's just as well I haven't read them.

Her portrayal of the Jedi isn't any more unsympathetic in LoTF than in Republic Commando. What annoyed some people was her focus on Boba Fett, to the extent that his subplots took up a third or so of each book.

Ironically, Troy Denning, who actually likes the Jedi and took issue with her writing, made Luke, Jaina, and Leia come across as much more unsympathetic characters than they did when Traviss was writing them. This is noticeable in Legacy of the Force, but actually gets even worse in Fate of the Jedi by which time Traviss had left the franchise.

[Mechalich]

Her portrayal of the Jedi isn't any more unsympathetic in LoTF than in Republic Commando. What annoyed some people was her focus on Boba Fett, to the extent that his subplots took up a third or so of each book.

Ironically, Troy Denning, who actually likes the Jedi and took issue with her writing, made Luke, Jaina, and Leia come across as much more unsympathetic characters than they did when Traviss was writing them. This is noticeable in Legacy of the Force, but actually gets even worse in Fate of the Jedi by which time Traviss had left the franchise.

Troy Denning's entire writing style is based in the idea that suffering will reveal character and produce drama. Everyone on his works, across various universes involves taking characters and torturing them in some fashion (sometimes literally) and seeing what happens as a result. This can by very sympathetic or extremely unsympathetic depending on where the impetus for said torture is coming from. If the circumstances are the result of the machinations of uncaring forces beyond comprehension or impossibly powerful foes then the protagonists tend to be sympathetic. So in Star by Star - where the Jedi are facing the Yuuzhan Vong at the height of their onslaught the crushing horrors inflicted upon the various Jedi make them appear extremely sympathetic. In LotF, FotJ, and especially Crucible, when the impetus is largely bad decisions by the characters themselves - which were in turn the result of authorial fiat designed to find some way to imperil a galaxy that has no logical reason to be in peril - all sympathy is swiftly excised.

[Sapphire Guard]

Spoiler: Outbound Flight and C'baoth

Show

Original-flavor C'baoth was beaten, yes, but Thrawn didn't anticipate him deciding to pull an Ahab and trying to take Thrawn down with him (as opposed to accepting defeat and not needing to go down at all). Or didn't anticipate that he would be able to do so effectively? One or the other. The button Doriana pushed was not supposed to be used on Outbound Flight, doing so ruined his plan to annihilate the Vagaari and resulted in a bunch of civilian casualties that Young Thrawn still cared enough to avoid.

I'm not trying to argue against his hypercompetence in general, but he did slip up here, and it cost him some.

Re the original trilogy: yeah, it's a bit odd that the struggle between clone-C'baoth and Thrawn never gets a chance to go off. Thrawn slips up again there, I believe, but it doesn't end up costing him because they both die anyway.

Spoiler

Show

It was anticipated, just not preferred. The TF droids were programmed to dent specific points in Outbound Flight's hull, which would not be the same in the vagaari ships. So the programming was there in advance, Thrawn would have just preferred not to use it.

"Surrender, or I'll destroy you, even though I'd prefer not to have to" became "They didn't surrender, therefore we have to destroy them." Not really a slip up or unanticipated, just slightly suboptimal.

[Velaryon]

I actually enjoyed the books; there's not a lot of Jedi hatred in there and they're good counterinsurgency stories. I understand she went off the rocker in the Legacy of the Force series, so it's just as well I haven't read them. I found the Republic Commando books quite acceptable, especially Triple Zero.

She also wrote the novelization of the animated Clone Wars movie (the one that was basically a pilot for the TV series). She inserted a scene, not present in the film, in which Count Dooku reminisces about how awesome Jango Fett was and how awful the Jedi were for killing him.

Her portrayal of the Jedi isn't any more unsympathetic in LoTF than in Republic Commando. What annoyed some people was her focus on Boba Fett, to the extent that his subplots took up a third or so of each book.

I haven't read Republic Commando, but I think you're understating the anti-Jedi sentiment she worked into LOTF a little. Whichever of her books had Jaina Solo decide that she needed to go learn from the Mandalorians how to defeat her brother, her entire character arc is about realizing she's a spoiled Jedi princess (which the Mandalorians are happy to tell her plenty of times) who has to learn what being a real soldier is all about by digging trenches and stuff. Never mind that she had distinguished herself on multiple occasions throughout the Yuuzhan Vong war, both in lightsaber combat and while leading a fighter squadron. All of that is dismissed in favor of treating her like a spoiled newbie who has to learn how the real warriors do things. You could argue that this is just the Mandalorians' point of view, except that Jaina agrees with their assessment, at least when Traviss is writing her.

Ironically, Troy Denning, who actually likes the Jedi and took issue with her writing, made Luke, Jaina, and Leia come across as much more unsympathetic characters than they did when Traviss was writing them. This is noticeable in Legacy of the Force, but actually gets even worse in Fate of the Jedi by which time Traviss had left the franchise.

I'd argue that's because Troy Denning is a terrible author. Traviss at least writes well within her wheelhouse - her problem is that she has a ridiculously skewed view of the franchise and was unwilling or unable to set that aside, even when working with other people. Denning's entries in LOTF were every bit as bad as hers, just in a different way. Honestly, not even Aaron Allston's entries were up to his usual standard. That series pretty much killed my enthusiasm for the EU, and is a large part of why I didn't mind too much when Disney scratched it all from the canon.

[Mechalich]

Honestly, not even Aaron Allston's entries were up to his usual standard.

Allston had a heart attack during the writing of FotJ, which surely influenced his ability to produce effectively, it also skewed the production schedule of the series resulting in books that were rushed and not properly edited because Del Rey was unwilling to delay.

[Blackhawk748]

You know, ive always interpreted this line as more "Once you do these things, you might realize they were bad, but the consequences will follow you forever."

If Vader had survived the Death Star II, he wouldn't be welcomed as a hero by the Alliance, or as a father by Leia, he's going to be the guy who restrained her and forced her to watch Alderaan explode. He's going to be the guy who led the assault on Hoth. He's going to be the guy who killed most of the Jedi. And even if Luke has enough clout to keep the Alliance from executing him on the spot, Anakin would still have to live with that.

I seem to recall some theory crafting of "If Vader had survived" and its basically this. Luke is the only one willing to really give him a shot and a bunch of people want him executed. Mon Mothma has him locked up (as much for his saftey as anyone elses) and basically lets Luke sneak out with him later when things start getting worse.

Anakin actually wants to die and isn't happy that he survived. Largely because he knows he's screwing up Luke's life and hes constantly hurting Lea by simply existing, so he was fine with being executed. But when Luke comes to bail him out he goes along with it, because he knows Luke isn't going to let them kill him.

The theory crafting ended with Luke and Anakin going off into space to study the force and possibly rebuild the Jedi, with Anakin going to find a way to redeem himself.

I said motifs are repeated. Tropes. You can apply it to the most trivial up to the most important.

The Empire always build a superweapon
All people on Tatooine are moist farmers
All Protocol Droids are prancy
All correlians are good pilots
Bothans are spy

Etc.. etc.. the writers of the EU just wanted to recreate the stories and elements of the original movies. Everything seen there became an overall generic trait in their world building.

Except Zhan. Or Stackpole. You know, the non-hack writers.

They are inspired by Nazis, of course they will.
Its a very dry planet that has low population density, yes lots of moisture farming goes on here.
Now they aren't, the one from Rogue Squadron sure isn't and if they are its because they need to be diplomatic.
Correlians are individualists which seems to translate into being pilots more often than otehr cultures, cuz, y'know, freedom.
Have you looked at their culture? Its Byzantian Intruige from top to bottom.

[hamishspence]

In the Infinities ROTJ comic at least, the Rebellion is willing to accept Vader's help, because Palpatine has survived as well. Pragmatism coming into play here. As Vader points out:

"I may be of some help in locating my former master."

[Blackhawk748]

In the Infinities ROTJ comic at least, the Rebellion is willing to accept Vader's help, because Palpatine has survived as well. Pragmatism coming into play here. As Vader points out:

"I may be of some help in locating my former master."

Ya, i do recall that one. I didn't bring it up because it had that added input instead of it just being Vader.

[Aotrs Commander]

For me, the old EU offically ended at Survivor's Quest. I tried the first three of the NJO and got to the end of the second Stackpole book and went "if second-best SW author can't make me like this, it's beyond crap." I tried the Legacy of the Force series thnking that now the EU was out of that low-point... I got through the first Allston book fine, but petered out and got bored of the second book in the series. (Among other things, I couldn't understand why boba Fett was suddenly there - it wasn't until later I heard about Traviss, remembered the fact that the same author had had all the Clone Troopers survive for inexplicable reasons in The Clone Wars novelisation and went "oh, really, that probably explains it.") The only SW books I'e picked up since was Zhan's legends prequel books and the new Thrawn book (which if I squint, can easily pretend was legends canon).

So, some bits of old EU I was happy to see gone, and at least the best part of it (Thrawn) has been in nucanon in some way... But sadly, like a lot of stuff that has now become Big Money, the rest of new SW no longer offers me anything any more as a rule.

[Velaryon]

Allston had a heart attack during the writing of FotJ, which surely influenced his ability to produce effectively, it also skewed the production schedule of the series resulting in books that were rushed and not properly edited because Del Rey was unwilling to delay.

Fate of the Jedi came after Legacy of the Force, so his heart attack hadn't happened yet. Although if someone told me that the stress of trying to save that dumpster fire of a series had contributed to Allston's heart attack, I would believe them without question.

FotJ wasn't fantastic either, but I found that series significantly less awful than LotF.

For me, the old EU offically ended at Survivor's Quest. I tried the first three of the NJO and got to the end of the second Stackpole book and went "if second-best SW author can't make me like this, it's beyond crap." I tried the Legacy of the Force series thnking that now the EU was out of that low-point... I got through the first Allston book fine, but petered out and got bored of the second book in the series. (Among other things, I couldn't understand why boba Fett was suddenly there - it wasn't until later I heard about Traviss, remembered the fact that the same author had had all the Clone Troopers survive for inexplicable reasons in The Clone Wars novelisation and went "oh, really, that probably explains it.") The only SW books I'e picked up since was Zhan's legends prequel books and the new Thrawn book (which if I squint, can easily pretend was legends canon).

So, some bits of old EU I was happy to see gone, and at least the best part of it (Thrawn) has been in nucanon in some way... But sadly, like a lot of stuff that has now become Big Money, the rest of new SW no longer offers me anything any more as a rule.

It has been some years since I read the NJO series, but my opinion at the time was that the beginning was the lowest point and it slowly got better. For what it's worth, of the 100+ Star Wars EU novels I have read, Vector Prime is the one I consider by far the worst - worse even than trash like The Crystal Star.

The biggest problem I had with the NJO is that they took way too long to establish a motive for the Yuuzhan Vong. So for almost half the series, they seemed like cartoonishly evil-for-evil's-sake, one-dimensional baddies who were immune to everything the good guys had just because. Things did get better, until they got worse again with Troy Denning's Dark Nest trilogy after the NJO series, and then even worse with Legacy of the Force.

To my way of thinking, the Expanded Universe that I knew and loved had been dead for years already by the time Disney bought Star Wars and excised the whole thing. I was happy to see it go, even if I'm less than satisfied with what has replaced it, and have zero desire to delve into the newcanon books.

[Peelee]

Fate of the Jedi came after Legacy of the Force, so his heart attack hadn't happened yet. Although if someone told me that the stress of trying to save that dumpster fire of a series had contributed to Allston's heart attack, I would believe them without question.

FotJ wasn't fantastic either, but I found that series significantly less awful than LotF.

It certainly had the not-19-freaking-books benefit going for it.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Things did get better, until they got worse again with Troy Denning's Dark Nest trilogy after the NJO series, and then even worse with Legacy of the Force.

Dammit, I managed to go an entire decade without remembering the Dark Nest trilogy existed, and now it's all coming back. Thanks a lot.

To my way of thinking, the Expanded Universe that I knew and loved had been dead for years already by the time Disney bought Star Wars and excised the whole thing. I was happy to see it go, even if I'm less than satisfied with what has replaced it, and have zero desire to delve into the newcanon books.

I was initially happy because they were saying that the new movies would be set sometime in the mid-20s to mid-30s ABY. I thought Wow, what a great decision, they're keeping the good EU and cutting things off when it started to get bad! Then later they settled on 34 ABY for TFA and I thought Hmm, doubt they'd do the movies near the end of the Yuuzhan Vong invasion, maybe they're going to overwrite NJO and stick something else in those last few years to make it their own. Then they killed the EU, and, well, we know how that went.

For all that people give the EU crap for being of highly variable quality, there's a pretty distinct divide between the "classic" material and all the setting-nuking stuff of NJO and later; the classic stuff tends to be mediocre at worst, while the new stuff tends to be mediocre at best. Yes, there's some weird and out-of-character-for-Star-Wars stuff before that (The Crystal Star, much of the Lando Calrissian trilogy, the Mortis arc that turned the mythical Celestials into a squabbling family and tied into the Abeloth dreck ), but it's almost completely isolated from the wider EU so it's not too terrible.

[The Glyphstone]

Speaking of weird, early-era EU stuff, did the evil lizard people from Truce At Bakura ever make another appearance? Or did they just get swept under the rug and ignored?

[Battleship789]

Speaking of weird, early-era EU stuff, did the evil lizard people from Truce At Bakura ever make another appearance? Or did they just get swept under the rug and ignored?

They come back for a bit during the second half of the NJO series. For all the faults of the NJO series, they did a pretty good job of dredging up old bits of canon.

[Peelee]

Speaking of weird, early-era EU stuff, did the evil lizard people from Truce At Bakura ever make another appearance? Or did they just get swept under the rug and ignored?

I don't remember them in anything else.

[Kish]

She also wrote the novelization of the animated Clone Wars movie (the one that was basically a pilot for the TV series). She inserted a scene, not present in the film, in which Count Dooku reminisces about how awesome Jango Fett was and how awful the Jedi were for killing him.

See, when I read "hates the Jedi," my reaction was primarily "and what's the problem with that?" I would have gotten it immediately had it instead been phrased as, "fetishizes the Mandalorians."

[Mechalich]

See, when I read "hates the Jedi," my reaction was primarily "and what's the problem with that?" I would have gotten it immediately had it instead been phrased as, "fetishizes the Mandalorians."

Well part of the problem with 'hates the Jedi' was the generation of completely out of character actions that directly contradicted other sources in order to make the Jedi look bad that had the effect of damaging the canon overall. For instance, claiming that Clone Troopers did not receive leave - which other sources (such as the Medstar books) explicit said they got.

Utilizing your position as an author in a shared universe to impose bad-faith puppy-kicking upon an element of the universe you dislike is a massive faux pas.

For all that people give the EU crap for being of highly variable quality, there's a pretty distinct divide between the "classic" material and all the setting-nuking stuff of NJO and later; the classic stuff tends to be mediocre at worst, while the new stuff tends to be mediocre at best. Yes, there's some weird and out-of-character-for-Star-Wars stuff before that (The Crystal Star, much of the Lando Calrissian trilogy, the Mortis arc that turned the mythical Celestials into a squabbling family and tied into the Abeloth dreck ), but it's almost completely isolated from the wider EU so it's not too terrible.

The EU contains a number of natural chronological divide points - which were actually canonized as 'eras' in the Holocron database - for a variety of reasons. In regard to the post-ROTJ portion of the timeline the divide came about due to the handover of literary rights from Bantam Spectra to Del Rey, with Del Rey wisely choosing to mostly stay out of the portion of the timeline utilized by Bantam. This was partly a result of Timothy Zahn setting up the end of Vision of the Future as a natural 'end of an era' moment leaving things open to take the franchise in a fresh new direction. And while giant outside context invasion (helmed in part by the guy who wrote the exact same plotline for Battletech over a decade previously) was far from the most original idea available, Disney somehow managed to be even less open-minded.