The Last Jedi - There At First.. wait

[Blackhawk748]

Would you kill Baby Hitler if you had the chance?

No, id make him a successful artist. Probably by taking him to America after Art School.

[Cikomyr]

No, id make him a successful artist. Probably by taking him to America after Art School.

Funny redirection.

[BRC]

It was a Poe Dameron plan. We saw how well those worked out over the course ofvthis movie. Fortunately, Poe realized this himself before too many more people would die.

I mean, I actually found that whole arc to be pretty interesting.

Not necessarily well-executed, but interesting.


Luke's Death Star Trench Run was an act of desperation. Had the Death Star not been destroyed then and there, it would have spelled the end for the Rebellion. "Throw some X-wings at the Death Star" was not a GOOD plan, it was the best plan they had, and it worked.

Poe grew up IDOLIZING that trench run. He's absorbed the heroics, but not the context. That was a desperate, nigh-suicidal attack that the Rebels only considered because they didn't have any other options.

He launched a desperate, costly attack against the Dreadnought because in his mind that's how you win this sort of thing. Sure, the First Order probably hates losing that Dreadnought, but taking it out didn't save the rebellion.

He gambled everything on Finn and Rose's desperate sabotage mission...okay, because Admiral Purplehair didn't feel like sharing her plan, or even saying "We have a decent plan, I just don't want to spread it around in case there are First Order Spies aboard/the FO is listening to our communications".

[Jayngfet]

That is what was going through Luke's mind. I don't blame him a moment of weakness. I would have blamed him for acting on it.

...and the blame rests on the character, and the writers, for what happened after. He didn't save anyone by running away. Two of his best friends died looking for him and he didn't care. Ben needed to be stopped and he didn't care. Even when R2 directly threw it in his face about how he was the one who answered these calls before he doesn't care except in a half assed way where he still doesn't really do much until the very end after about three hundred and fifty more people had already been killed.

[Peelee]

Would you kill Baby Hitler if you had the chance?

No. Because it's a baby. This is should not be not a difficult concept.

Spoiler: SMBC

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[Aedilred]

I no longer find that strange. Im more and more convinced that "Professional" reviewers are just paid off by the large Studios to give them good ratings. Then the fans go and say "Wow, that was nowhere near as good as i was led to believe". This makes it all the worse when a legitimately good movie comes out, it can easily get brushed aside as "Corporate Hype"

I find that audience review averages tend to occupy a much narrower band in general. Looking at imdb, even certifiably terrible films rarely tend to sink below about a 6/10. Meanwhile there are only four films that average 9/10 or higher. I think audiences might also be more willing to give terrible ratings to films they found to be "less good than expected" even if they were fine, or sometimes just to buck the trend of a film that's well regarded but they didn't particularly enjoy, while they're simultaneously more reluctant to mark out of the full range in other respects. I've known amateur reviewers, for instance, who have a very high granularity of scoring from 7/10 upwards but hand out the occasional 2/10 as if to justify the otherwise positive marks (but never anything between 2 and 7). Audiences are also less discerning, on average, than professional reviewers, and have seen fewer films so have fewer benchmarks for their scores. This tends to lead to a clustering between 60-80% with the overall figure meaning very little, in my experience.

Ultimately, I think numerical ratings on films are a bit of a waste of time. Rotten tomatoes makes a kind of sense in that it's simply a measure of how many critics gave a film a positive review rather than how positively they reviewed it, but otherwise ratings/review aggregators don't accomplish much. In order to get any value from a review you have to read it, and while it's true that some alleged critics might as well be shills, and others have big fanboy blindspots (albeit probably less so than the average audience member) I do often find them worthwhile.

[Anonymouswizard]

I honestly liked that fuel constraints where a thing. SW drives are for all intents and purposes reactionless (I've looked at plans, and none have any real remass tankage), but the idea that even large ships need to be refueled or they'll stop working appeals to me.

Maybe because my science fiction writing tries to deal with remass and fuel as limits, to the point where ships being under acceleration during interstellar travel is rare (depending on which universe I use jumps are either instant or most of a hyperspace skip is spent drifting with only occasional thrust for course corrections).

[Cikomyr]

...and the blame rests on the character, and the writers, for what happened after. He didn't save anyone by running away. Two of his best friends died looking for him and he didn't care. Ben needed to be stopped and he didn't care. Even when R2 directly threw it in his face about how he was the one who answered these calls before he doesn't care except in a half assed way where he still doesn't really do much until the very end after about three hundred and fifty more people had already been killed.

I thought we were discussing Luke's actions that led to Kylo Ren?

Don't change the topic.

No. Because it's a baby. This is should not be not a difficult concept.

I agree with you.

But you and I are very different people, having lived very different lives than Luke. Lets ask a Holocaust survivor what his choice would be.

Luke saw first hand the horrors of Darth Vader. He forgot about more friends and allies to the Empire than you probably known in your life, and he knows his experience is minute compared to other victims. And he felt it all on his shoulder.

Why do you think Kenobi insisted that Vader had to be killed? That he was beyond redemption? Guilt.

And yet. Despite all of that, Luke did not follow through on his fear. He nevertheless failed.

[BRC]

Actually, concerning Luke, I have a question about the timeline of what happened at the Jedi Temple.

Spoiler

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In TFA, we're told that Ben, having been seduced to the dark side by Snoke, betrayed Luke and slaughtered the other students. IIRC we're shown a flashback of Ben/Kylo attacking the temple alongside some First Order troops. The implication being that Ben helped the First Order launch a sneak attack on the temple.


In TLJ, we're told that Luke got spooked, Ben, thinking his uncle was about to kill him (And already pretty far down the path to the Dark Side), pulled a wall down on top of Luke and, presumably, ran off to join Snoke.

So, we have a few options.

1) During the few hours Luke was unconscious in that rubble, Kylo ran off, met with Snoke, and was convinced to go back and slaughter the other students, but didn't bother to say "Hey, luke skywalker is stuck in a pile of rubble over there. You should go blast it".
2) Ben ran off, met up with Snoke, and returned days later to attack the temple. Luke didn't prepare for an assault/evacuate the temple, and somehow survived the attack despite failing to save any of the other students.
3) Ben, upon learning that his Uncle/Teacher was about to murder him in his sleep (The fact that he was wrong doesn't change anything), decides that the first thing he should do before running off is to massacre the other students. Because you can't be a Skywalker falling to the darkside without killing a bunch of baby jedi.

[Dienekes]

Actually, concerning Luke, I have a question about the timeline of what happened at the Jedi Temple.

Spoiler

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In TFA, we're told that Ben, having been seduced to the dark side by Snoke, betrayed Luke and slaughtered the other students. IIRC we're shown a flashback of Ben/Kylo attacking the temple alongside some First Order troops. The implication being that Ben helped the First Order launch a sneak attack on the temple.


In TLJ, we're told that Luke got spooked, Ben, thinking his uncle was about to kill him (And already pretty far down the path to the Dark Side), pulled a wall down on top of Luke and, presumably, ran off to join Snoke.

So, we have a few options.

1) During the few hours Luke was unconscious in that rubble, Kylo ran off, met with Snoke, and was convinced to go back and slaughter the other students, but didn't bother to say "Hey, luke skywalker is stuck in a pile of rubble over there. You should go blast it".
2) Ben ran off, met up with Snoke, and returned days later to attack the temple. Luke didn't prepare for an assault/evacuate the temple, and somehow survived the attack despite failing to save any of the other students.

Actually explained in the movie. Luke says he thinks Ben must have thought he was dead.

Also, that while Luke was unconscious he took some of his friends (who became the knights of ren) and slaughtered the rest of Luke’s academy.

So technically, Ben is the one who must have gone on a whole child murdering phase.

In any case this does not match the Kylo in the rain scene in TFA. Maybe we can assume that this was just another scene of Ben being evil. I don’t think we see Ben actually killing people with lightsabers in the scene itself. But I’m not going to go back and check. I didn’t really like TFA enough to rewatch it.


As an aside. I always hated the kill baby Hitler question. Hitler wasn’t the problem, if anything his presence as the leader of the Nazi party made it easier to defeat because he was god awful as a military coordinator.

The Nazi’s rose because of increased political dissension from the unfair restrictions and payments forced upon the German people after WWI and the following hyperinflation and economic collapse. Killing Hitler doesn’t change that or removes the undercurrent of growing antisemitism and racial ideologies.

If you got a time machine go back and fix the Treaty of Versailles, or force Kaiser Wilhelm and Tsar Nicholas to get together and discuss things before WWI started.

[Peelee]

I agree with you.

But you and I are very different people, having lived very different lives than Luke. Lets ask a Holocaust survivor what his choice would be.

Luke saw first hand the horrors of Darth Vader. He forgot about more friends and allies to the Empire than you probably known in your life, and he knows his experience is minute compared to other victims. And he felt it all on his shoulder.

Why do you think Kenobi insisted that Vader had to be killed? That he was beyond redemption? Guilt.

And yet. Despite all of that, Luke did not follow through on his fear. He nevertheless failed.

I think that "take him to America and let him paint" answer was amazing. He doesn't need to die for crimes not yet committed (I'm assuming a time machine here).

Also, I think Kenobi thought that Vader was beyond redemption. Frankly, I think Luke was foolish to try it, since Vader was Space Hitler by that point. It worked out well, but it was a helluva risk.

[Jayngfet]

I thought we were discussing Luke's actions that led to Kylo Ren?

Don't change the topic.

We were not discussing anything. You were talking about something else with someone else. The fact that I pointed out your entire train of logic is inherently flawed doesn't have to be constrained to a different train of thought.

Also, I think Kenobi thought that Vader was beyond redemption. Frankly, I think Luke was foolish to try it, since Vader was Space Hitler by that point. It worked out well, but it was a helluva risk.

I think the Hitler allegory is probably more apt. People don't realize that "dictator" was very much Hitler's fallback career and on some level he was into other things right up into the invasion of Poland, since even as the war was underway he was still deep into Disney movies and practicing his art. The real atrocities didn't begin until much later after things had progressed, and even then only gradually in a kind of mad escalation rather than any kind of concentrated plan from the beginning.

I think it really changes the question if you phrase it less as "there's good in everyone except Hitler types.", and more as "there's good in everyone, including histories worst monsters. But at what point does that no longer matter?".

[Cikomyr]

I think that "take him to America and let him paint" answer was amazing. He doesn't need to die for crimes not yet committed (I'm assuming a time machine here).

But you cannot escape the Dark side by running. Especially not if you are a young man.

Also, I think Kenobi thought that Vader was beyond redemption. Frankly, I think Luke was foolish to try it, since Vader was Space Hitler by that point. It worked out well, but it was a helluva risk.

It was a hail Mary. But it also was the only choice Luke had; he wasnt strong enough to beat Vader and the Emperor..

[Peelee]

But you cannot escape the Dark side by running. Especially not if you are a young man.

But you can be helped away from it. Luke should have tried harder, not lit up his saber. I can't see the same guy that thinks "Space Hitler can be saved" also thinking, even for a moment, "I should kill this child to stop a great evil."

It was a hail Mary. But it also was the only choice Luke had; he wasnt strong enough to beat Vader and the Emperor..

Yeah, you're completely right on this.

Also, I especially love when we talk, at least for the avatars.

[Blackhawk748]

I think that "take him to America and let him paint" answer was amazing. He doesn't need to die for crimes not yet committed (I'm assuming a time machine here).

Thank you, it's my favorite answer.

But you cannot escape the Dark side by running. Especially not if you are a young man.

That is a very disturbing viewpoint

[Jayngfet]

It was a hail Mary. But it also was the only choice Luke had; he wasnt strong enough to beat Vader and the Emperor..

Luke was absolutely strong enough to beat Vader. He kicked the old man down the stairs and dominated for the brief periods he fought seriously. The emperor is another matter entirely and much more up for debate but if Luke wanted to just confront Vader on Endor he probably would have won there.

[Peelee]

Thank you, it's my favorite answer.

I know very little about art, but from what I've seen of his work, it was pretty damn good. Imean, obviously, the world would be a better place if Hitler hadn't been Hitler, but it would be just a little bit nicer even if Hitler had been a nice landscape painter.

Luke was absolutely strong enough to beat Vader. He kicked the old man down the stairs and dominated for the brief periods he fought seriously. The emperor is another matter entirely and much more up for debate but if Luke wanted to just confront Vader on Endor he probably would have won there.

Without the Emperor goading him into seeing how all his friends would die, his fleet would die, his cause would die, the Empire would continue after crushing the Rebellion, etc., I think it would have been more or less a repeat of the Bespin duel.

[Dienekes]

But you can be helped away from it. Luke should have tried harder, not lit up his saber. I can't see the same guy that thinks "Space Hitler can be saved" also thinking, even for a moment, "I should kill this child to stop a great evil.

And Luke would agree with you. He should have tried harder.

Also again. In the flashback, that’s Adam Driver. Ben wasn’t a child during this.

[Peelee]

And Luke would agree with you. He should have tried harder.

Also again. In the flashback, that’s Adam Driver. Ben wasn’t a child during this.

To Luke he was, as evidenced by his line.

[Dienekes]

To Luke he was, as evidenced by his line.

And to Luke he was also an adult and Sith (or whatever we’re calling evil force users now). That’s the point of the line. He sees Ben as this evil potentially murderous thing. Then when he actually looked he saw the confused child. And he was ashamed for what he almost tried to do.

The same way my parents still sometimes see me as a little boy. Despite the fact I’m as old as they were when they had me.

[Jayngfet]

Without the Emperor goading him into seeing how all his friends would die, his fleet would die, his cause would die, the Empire would continue after crushing the Rebellion, etc., I think it would have been more or less a repeat of the Bespin duel.

That's unbacked speculation. As we see on the screen, Luke wins every time they come into a clash in that duel.

Hell, not only does he win, but he wins by doing to Vader a lot of the things Vader previously did to him(like that aformentioned kick, which he'd previously used against Jabba's men, showing he's actually fighting to that standard constantly and it isn't a one time boost).

[Sapphire Guard]

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I'm kind of confused as to how Finn, Rose and Poe betrayed a plan they didn't know about.

Fuel may be a thing, but to suddenly have less than 18 hours worth out of nowhere is eyebrow raising.

Funny how Poe is being called out on his plans when Holdo also got every other ship in the fleet obliterated. The betrayal is not his fault, he didn't tell Finn and Rose to illegally park and then recruit a random cellmate.

Poe is brash, but he's not a security risk. A First Order plant would not have been instrumental in destroying Starkiller Base.

That Dreadnaught was described as a 'fleet killer', it may actually have been worth the losses in these circumstances.

The thing about Luke is, they were so lazy about it. They could have laid some of the groundwork as to why Luke felt the need to sneak into his room at night in the first place, but instead we just get a romcom style misunderstanding.

Don't think Hux was drawing things out deliberately, he was upset that they couldn't catch them sooner. I don't think they'd have marshalled such a big fleet if there were too many other things to do elsewhere.

The first six films are about how the entire galactic federation crumbles into dust because of a single family having a really bad marital dispute.

If you completely ignore Palpatine's role in things, and even then it's stretching it. Anakin's role is quite small, he didn't set up the Clone wars, he didn't organise Order 66, he marched into the temple but that would've happened anyway, the 501st would just have taken a few more casualties. His attempt to kill Obi Wan fails catastrophically.

[Dienekes]

That's unbacked speculation. As we see on the screen, Luke wins every time they come into a clash in that duel.

Hell, not only does he win, but he wins by doing to Vader a lot of the things Vader previously did to him(like that aformentioned kick, which he'd previously used against Jabba's men, showing he's actually fighting to that standard constantly and it isn't a one time boost).

The argument could also be made that Vader wasn’t actually trying to kill his son. Either consciously or subconsciously. As seen with his attempt to save him.

But either way is pure speculation really. The truth is, Luke couldn’t beat Vader and the Emperor. Which is what he was facing. Whether he could beat one or the other alone doesn’t really matter to the situation at hand.

[Peelee]

That's unbacked speculation.

I'm not gonna argue that, it's totally true. But also, every time Vader and Luke clashed in that movie, he was under severe emotional stress from the Emperor.

[Jayngfet]

I'm not gonna argue that, it's totally true. But also, every time Vader and Luke clashed in that movie, he was under severe emotional stress from the Emperor.

Except again, there's nothing Luke does against Vader he doesn't do against other people in the film.

[Peelee]

Except again, there's nothing Luke does against Vader he doesn't do against other people in the film.

And this would matter if Vader and Jabba's guards were interchangeable.

[Blackhawk748]

I know very little about art, but from what I've seen of his work, it was pretty damn good. Imean, obviously, the world would be a better place if Hitler hadn't been Hitler, but it would be just a little bit nicer even if Hitler had been a nice landscape painter.

Ya, sadly Europe wanted nothing to do with landscapes at the time. America however was all over landscapes, so his city paintings should have gone over well.

Anyway, I could see Luke doing what he did if Kylo was being possessed (at least partially) by a dark side spirit, like Exar Kun. Then Kun would have taken Luke's fear and blown it up to insane proportions.

Except that's not what we get.

[Reddish Mage]

No, id make him a successful artist. Probably by taking him to America after Art School.

I think the primary purpose of this post is to insult American's taste in art.

I thought we were discussing Luke's actions that led to Kylo Ren?

Don't change the topic.

I agree with you.

But you and I are very different people, having lived very different lives than Luke. Lets ask a Holocaust survivor what his choice would be..

You know, I've lived around Holocaust survivors all my life, had one for a teacher, and I never thought to ask that question.

Why does every mass murderer have to be Hitler? Hitler was a particular sort of mass murderer that was also into a sort of nationalism attached to a weird pseudo-scientific racial ideology that also valued very odd attributes as virtues. Like I am pretty sure they are ok with baby killing given reasons (see Holocaust).

Kylo Ren, on the other hand, might be evil, he might even have killed his own share of babies in his day. However, he really has no ideology other than the fact that he likes power and being in charge. He's not even a particularly good leader type, he orders people around like a two year old that was given the remote to a shock collar.

Hux is the closest Hitter analog, and he basically just gets thrown around like a rag doll by the Sith force users until he's a joke.

By the way, Luke shouldn't kill babies either, or 10-year old padawans.

However, I still would find that outcome delightful since I have already had to sit through two movies with the infuriating Kylo Ren in it and no doubt he'll be in a third.

[Rakaydos]

Anyway, I could see Luke doing what he did if Kylo was being possessed (at least partially) by a dark side spirit, like Exar Kun. Then Kun would have taken Luke's fear and blown it up to insane proportions.

Except that's not what we get.

Isnt it? What was Snoke doing at Luke's academy? It didnt sound like Snoke was another student... but he was whispering in several apprentices ears...

If we are talking an exar kun style malevelant spirit, he must have got a body somehow, but I can believe that as a sith alchemy thing.

[Peelee]

I think the primary purpose of this post is to insult American's taste in art.

Well, to be fair, we did let Andy Warhol be successful.