Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXIII: Only in Nerf Does Duty End

[Cheesegear]

FTFW

...Exactly? So trying to make a Swarmlord, that isn't even as good as real Swarmlord, is only doubling down on the failure. Making Slayer Sabres even worse. Because if you were going to take Swarmlord (even though he's not even very good), why would you take an even worse version of that?

I'm not going to defend it, only point out that a non-negligible number of people in a forum dedicated to Nids specifically have seen some value to it

Link me to their specific conversation. Otherwise I'm going off of my own brain, and the competitive players around me (who I trust a lot more than randos).
I've seen screenshots of a Tau Facebook Group (that will remain nameless) of people who genuinely believe that the army list is good, and that it 'holds up' against other army lists - even ones with Codecies! Which is all bulls*, as anyone with a non-fanboi, realistic outlook knows. Just because someone says it, there are so many more questions I need to ask about anecdotal evidence. What did you play against? What Mission were you playing? How many points? Did you Seize? If you were playing Maelstrom, what cards did you draw? I don't deny that Tau can win games. I'm only saying that there's only a really, really small group of armies that they can play against without resorting to some of the hottest dice in the world combined with the Heart of the Cards.

"Nah man, Necrons can totally win games. Let me tell you about the time I ran 5 C'Tans and my opponent was Black Templars and Charged straight at me."
...Yeah, okay mate. Settle down.

I've seen a whole bunch of people claim that paying 3 CPs for an extra two Relics is worth it, in every single Codex. Which definitely isn't true. "Relics don't cost points. It's basically getting better wargear for free!" No, idiots. You definitely don't understand how good Command Points are. And 3 is a lot to spend in one go before the game has even started.

As I mentioned earlier, I don't rate things that have 'some value' (e.g; Lucius Electro-Priests, Kraken Genestealers, Salamanders Aggressors, etc.). It needs to have all the value, all of the time. Using a weapon that already does 3 Damage to sometimes kill <Infantry> and <Biker> models even harder, is a waste of a slot. Therefore, bad. By taking Slayer Sabres, you are removing the ability to take something else. I mean, credit where credit is due, none of the Tyranid Artefacts are that good. But still, even with that low, low bar, Slayer Sabres aren't even good.

iirc the benefit came from digging into all the additional +1 damage options for it. Call it what you will.

I will. That's even dumber. What? Implant Attack? Great. 3+3+1. That's 7 Damage in a single phase, before you decapitate, now you've already killed the <Infantry> models with the most wounds in the game before you roll dice.

Oh, I get it, you want to do 4 Damage to a 5 Wound model? It's got one Wound left, so on a 2+, it's dead anyway. Whoop-de-f*ing-do. You spent an Artefact slot on that?

Melee's terrific now...

No it isn't. Because only a fraction of your units will ever actually make it. Emperor help you if you ever play against Guard or Eldar where none of your units make it unless you're spamming more SUA than they can handle.
(i.e; Spam Genestealers, what else you got?)

Carnifexes have 24, S6 shots with a 2+ Save, or, carry four Heavy Bolters with rr1s To Hit. What the Hell are you doing in Melee? More importantly, how did you cross the board through the current meta of Missile and Plasma spam?

it's easy to make melee focused armies that hold up very well on the table.

Against what? Other Melee armies? 1000 Point games against Death Guard with 30 models, tops?

Heck, melee focused armies are the ONLY reason to even consider taking a Swarmlord (though since the codex that's no longer true).

Swarmlord effects one unit per turn. Like a Stratagem. Building an army around him doesn't work, because he's for building death stars. ("Death Stars don't exis-" Yeah, you're done talking.) Kraken Patrol. Swarmlord (and Tyrant Guard) & Genestealers, possibly a Broodlord with -1 To Hit Artefact. Don't make Swarmlord your Warlord, his Trait is bad. Then take a Detachment of anything else. Preferably Jormungandr, Kronos or Leviathan.

But I'd hardly call that a Melee army.

[Brookshw]

Link me to their specific conversation.

Oh jeez, that conversation was a few months ago as I recall. Started in the FAQ thread but spread out from there into different threads.

Otherwise I'm going off of my own brain

you do you.

No it isn't. Because only a fraction of your units will ever actually make it. Emperor help you if you ever play against Guard or Eldar where none of your units make it unless you're spamming more SUA than they can handle.

The what? Last time I went against guard it was a slaughter against them BECAUSE I ran heavy melee and got into them fast. Genestealers, Trygons, hell, even a Hive Tyrant since the codex made useful finally, Shrikes are still good, wish they had a model (and I'm glad GW officially affirmed their earlier stance re: the Index units/loadouts). Of course you're spamming SUA, why wouldn't you? What, you like leaving pieces on the board so they can get shot up if you're opponent goes first? Pretty sure you don't like letting your pieces get shot up before your turn if you can avoid it.

Carnifexes have 24, S6 shots with a 2+ Save, or, carry four Heavy Bolters with rr1s To Hit. What the Hell are you doing in Melee? More importantly, how did you cross the board through the current meta of Missile and Plasma spam?

If you want shooting I have no idea why you're leaning Carnifex over Exocrine, but sure, maybe you're trying to clear smaller hordes via shooting. Are we talking about Carnifexes, or the variants? Clarify that loadout because it looks like you're assuming adaptations. Anyway, benefit is the mortal wounds you can get in via melee that you can't via ranged. You get in the same you you always do, take the defensive benefits you can to cross through (couple of adaptations help a lot to keep you alive or get you there quicker), tie up their bit shooty units with SUA to the extent you can, challenge their target priority (sporemines are great fun for that). If you're just seeing Carnifexes and their variants as a heavy bolter platform then you're playing them like SM, and they're not SM.

Against what? Other Melee armies? 1000 Point games against Death Guard with 30 models, tops?

I'm baffled at where you get this from, but I've found Melee Nids work just fine against a spectrum of armies including shooty ones. You'll also find a number of competitive battle reports that are heavily weighted for Melee Nids if you go looking.

Swarmlord effects one unit per turn. Like a Stratagem. Building an army around him doesn't work, because he's for building death stars. ("Death Stars don't exis-" Yeah, you're done talking.) Kraken Patrol. Swarmlord (and Tyrant Guard) & Genestealers, possibly a Broodlord with -1 To Hit Artefact. Don't make Swarmlord your Warlord, his Trait is bad. Then take a Detachment of anything else. Preferably Jormungandr, Kronos or Leviathan.

But I'd hardly call that a Melee army.

The heck? Pretty sure I've been firm for months now that the Swarmlord is crap and I've never retreated from that stance, plus his mandatory tyrant guard tax makes him an absurd waste of points, no reason to bring him up. IF he was cheaper and you could avoid the guard tax then it might be another story (which is why the Hive Tyrant knockoff may have use iirc.) Look to more SUA options, adrenaline glands, Kraken adaptation, metabolic overdrive, onslaught come to mind.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of decent shooting options (finally) for Nids and it's pretty damn fun to drop 30 devilgaunts in via a Trygon then pop single minded annihilation, but Nids have a ton of useful Melee builds and finally the speed to get in close enough to use that to their advantage.

[Forum Explorer]

...What 'Nids are you playing? I haven't seen Melee 'Nids - with the singular exception of Carnifexes - since 8th started. And, with the two best Traits being 'Don't Advance/Charge', and the other being 'Don't Move', has only reinforced that notion, excluding pocket Patrols of <Kraken> Genestealers... Not that <Kraken> is good, mind. Only Genestealers are good, when they are Kraken.



What if your opponent doesn't have Psykers? What if your opponent has two Psykers with which to cast the same Power? All's you're doing is reducing your opponent's redundancy. If your opponent has one Psyker, with one good Power. Yeah, sure. It's amazing. But, in my experience, if your opponent has brought one Psyker, they've brought a lot of Psykers, or, their Psyker is brought purely for Deny purposes, and whether or not they cast a Power per turn is most irrelevant to their battle plan...So, knowing that you're Kronos, they just wont even try. Or, maybe they'll pull off a Smite anyway.



Agreed. But in my experience, Tyranids should do that using Neurothropes or Zoanthropes, and not using your Command Points.
I agree that simply shutting down one of your opponent's Powers can be strong - especially if you also give up your Warlord Trait. But, even if you were <Kronus>, and not running Swarmlord, I still don't see how you could go past an Infantry Character with Synaptic Lynchpin, or possibly a Dakka-Tyrant with Instinctive Killer.



I think what seals it for me, is that Hydra rolls a dice for each Wound lost, potentially allowing the regeneration of several Wounds per turn. Which is pretty useful. But, that's only useful for a Hive Tyrant, I guess...Yeah, you're right.



With both of them, I can't see writing either of them down on my army list.
If I knew, specifically, who my opponent was going to be, then yes. I'd consider Kronous' a lot. But, that's now how it works.



Definitely incorrect, and I strongly disagree. I believe every Hive Fleet has a gimmick, which is good for a pocket Patrol, or a min-maxed Detachment of whatever your slot of choice is. Maybe it's a question of semantics. I'm aware that...

Lucius, Patrol
Tech-Preist Dominus
Rangers (x5)
Corpuscarii Electro-Preists (xLots)

...Is a thing that exists, and has a use against armies without Codecies, or, rather more specifically, against armies that don't have an SUA interrupt. And it doesn't really do anything against hordes with a 5+ or 6+ Save anyway, and especially if said horde-type unit has a FNP save. But, just cause the Forge World has a gimmick, especially a gimmick that doesn't even work against everyone, I'm never going to admit that Lucius is good FW. Because it just isn't true.
Unfortunately, because of the above Detachment, it does have a use, and some people have really low standards, such that 'usable, sometimes' is the same as 'good'.

Just because Kraken Genestealers can potentially break the game against some opponents, doesn't make Kraken good.

I see melee Nids all of the time. And yeah, I know my meta isn't very good at gauging competitiveness but it's really easy to get first turn charges with multiple units. Sometimes it's a matter of spamming more SUA then they can handle (which is really easy for Tyranids to do), but I've also seen a combo of the Swarmlord, the Kraken Strategem, and one SUA to bring 60 Genestealers into a first turn charge. Or sometimes there's some Hormagaunts sprinkled in to maximize tying units up. Yeah, shooting Nids is also very good these days. But melee Nids are alive and well.

If my opponent doesn't have Psykers? Well then they are usually either Tau, Necrons, or Dark Eldar, so I'm not worried, and I just don't use that stratagem or Warlord trait. They can be changed between games, so it's not like you need to invest anything in it, because the Kronos adaptation is good enough on it's own. But it's gold against the armies that use psykers and really want to get off important powers. Flat out stopping a Warptime or a Quicken can be game changing. Same with Da Jump (particularly if you are shooty Nids). And if they are spamming psykers, which is also very common, then the Warlord trait really has a big impact. The spammable psykers only have a few wounds. And the D3 for failure makes it really risky. Particularly if you got burned by the stratagem earlier.

Sometimes that's enough. You get a Deny, and they likely have a -1 for Shadows of the Warp. But sometimes you really don't want that power to go off for whatever reason. It's only a single CP, and some powers are just that devastating to have go off. Synaptic Lynchpin is only good if you don't have a lot of Neurothropes, because otherwise it's just redundant. Instinctive Killer is situational. Does your opponent spam a lot of the same units, and are those units worth shooting at? Otherwise I think a Dakka-Tyrant is better off with Heightened Senses.

Since Warlord traits aren't preselected, I'd use them more as a matter of adapting to what the other guy is bringing. Do they have a lot of stuff that might charge me? Then I can use the Kraken trait. Do they have a lot of Psykers? Then the Kronos trait.

A question of semantics I believe. If you can build around a faction's adaptation and have it be useful, then generally I think it's a good faction. Like Kraken, Behemoth, or Hydra. While some traits are just more or less useful in general like Kronos, Gorgon, Levi, and Jormungdar.

Gorgon and Hydra are actually the traits I see the least. They are both for melee Nids, and often the most important thing for melee Nids is the delivery. So Kraken, Behemoth, and Jormungdar end up being much more useful. Jormungdar especially since it's also good for shooty Nids.

Also, for the Swarmlord, why not put him in a pod instead of paying for 3 Tyrant Guard? It's cheaper, and he can still use his ability when he comes in, guaranteeing he'll make his charge.

[Cheesegear]

but I've also seen a combo of the Swarmlord, the Kraken Strategem, and one SUA to bring 60 Genestealers into a first turn charge.

Which, as I've mentioned a few times by now, is the only way to run Kraken. And, granted, it's not bad. But it's literally the only Melee army I've seen work. But, even then, all of that only equals 1000 Points or so. Where the other 1000 Points is tied up in shooty stuff.

If my opponent doesn't have Psykers? Well then they are usually either Tau, Necrons, or Dark Eldar, so I'm not worried, and I just don't use that stratagem or Warlord trait.

Which, again, isn't possible in a competitive meta where your Warlord Traits are written down on your army list. Changing them every game amounts to tailoring - because it is.

Flat out stopping a Warptime or a Quicken can be game changing.

I never said Kronos' stuff wasn't useful. What I said, was that it wasn't useful in every game. I know perfectly well which Powers to stop, and which I can let through.

Since Warlord traits aren't preselected...

Only if you're casual.

Then I can use the Kraken trait. Do they have a lot of Psykers? Then the Kronos trait.

Your meta allows switching Sub-Factions every other game?

If you can build around a faction's adaptation and have it be useful, then generally I think it's a good faction.

Remember 7th Ed., when 'Orks are good, here's 500 Points of them, and then 1350 of Daemons'.
'Chaos Space Marines are amazing! Here's a Cyclopia Cabal, and then 1450 of Daemons'.

Or, let's actually play 8th Ed., instead of living in the past; 'I really like Sisters...No, just kidding, I only brought Celestine and then the other 1600 Points is all Guard.'

If you're not spending the majority of your points on a Faction/Sub-Faction, then you're almost definitely cherry-picking an extremely select section of units that will barely make an impact on your total points value.
That's a gimmick. It isn't good.

When someone uses Strike From the Shadows on a unit of Aggressors, that's not a Raven Guard gimmick...Because at least another 12-1300 Points of their army, will also be Raven Guard, because Raven Guard are good, not just an exploitative abuse of the Detachment rules.

[Forum Explorer]

Which, as I've mentioned a few times by now, is the only way to run Kraken. And, granted, it's not bad. But it's literally the only Melee army I've seen work. But, even then, all of that only equals 1000 Points or so. Where the other 1000 Points is tied up in shooty stuff.



Which, again, isn't possible in a competitive meta where your Warlord Traits are written down on your army list. Changing them every game amounts to tailoring - because it is.



I never said Kronos' stuff wasn't useful. What I said, was that it wasn't useful in every game. I know perfectly well which Powers to stop, and which I can let through.



Only if you're casual.



Your meta allows switching Sub-Factions every other game?



Remember 7th Ed., when 'Orks are good, here's 500 Points of them, and then 1350 of Daemons'.
'Chaos Space Marines are amazing! Here's a Cyclopia Cabal, and then 1450 of Daemons'.

Or, let's actually play 8th Ed., instead of living in the past; 'I really like Sisters...No, just kidding, I only brought Celestine and then the other 1600 Points is all Guard.'

If you're not spending the majority of your points on a Faction/Sub-Faction, then you're almost definitely cherry-picking an extremely select section of units that will barely make an impact on your total points value.
That's a gimmick. It isn't good.

When someone uses Strike From the Shadows on a unit of Aggressors, that's not a Raven Guard gimmick...Because at least another 12-1300 Points of their army, will also be Raven Guard, because Raven Guard are good, not just an exploitative abuse of the Detachment rules.

The best way, not the only way. You can also take another 1000 points of melee stuff if you want and actually do a full melee list, but it's honestly better to grab a second detachment of Kronos or Jungmander to have a shooty backline.

By the rules, a Warlord trait is generated immediately before deployment. That is literally what it says in the rulebook, so maybe ITC or NOVA changes that, but the base game does allow you to tailor your warlord trait to your opponent. Is it more competitive? Arguably, but it's still a house rule that your meta has inflicted upon itself. Don't assume that everyone else follows it.

Sure, but that's like saying Conceal isn't useful every game. Yeah, there is the occasional game where I face an almost pure melee army, but against a strong army, they'll have some good shooting as well. The psychic phase is a big deal, and you shouldn't neglect it.

Only if you're following the rules.

That's a sentence fragment. I'm talking about switching between using the Faction trait and the general traits.

How many points do you have to spend before it's considered significant? Up above we are talking about an almost 50-50 split between Kraken and Kronos. You can even go to an extreme in splitting them by doing something like Kraken+Behemoth for melee units (IE, Genestealers + stuff being SUA'd in), combined with a shooty stuff of Kronos + Jormundgar (IE, long range Exocrines and Tyranofexes + Carnifexes that are mid range and need to move). With how easy it is for Nids to make a detachment, there's no reason not to constantly min-max which faction is best for each individual unit.

[Blackhawk748]

Or, let's actually play 8th Ed., instead of living in the past; 'I really like Sisters...No, just kidding, I only brought Celestine and then the other 1600 Points is all Guard.'

Its sad that thats a thing, cuz Sisters are legitimately good.

[Ricky S]

Its sad that thats a thing, cuz Sisters are legitimately good.

If only they weren't prohibitively expensive and metal.


Well my meta is pretty weird then because I've been running behemoth with a close combat list and am 9 wins for 0 losses. I run a swarmlord and a big old unit of stealers, plus fexes and other stuff.

Edit: 9-1 I lost against a death guard list with Morty

[Cheesegear]

So, post-Chapter Approved, the winners of the tail-end of 2017 are...

Not in any order
Guard (+/- Celestine)
Tyranids (+/- Genestealer Cults and Guard)
Eldar
Chaos Marines (+/- Thousand Sons)

I'm not surprised. But it is handy to know, going forward.

[Turalisj]

Looks about right. Three more or less horde armies with plenty of psykers, easy long range high volume attacks, and plenty of ways to get rerolls.

[Saambell]

Speaking of Tyranids, if one was going to run a Non Swarmlord Hive Tyrant, what loadout would be chosen? Melee, or two sets of guns? And if guns, which guns? And which build wants wings?

[Forum Explorer]

Speaking of Tyranids, if one was going to run a Non Swarmlord Hive Tyrant, what loadout would be chosen? Melee, or two sets of guns? And if guns, which guns? And which build wants wings?

A build I see is Venom Cannon (Miasma Cannon relic if you aren't Kraken), with Wings and Massive Scything Talons.

[Grim Portent]

That's what I see a lot of as well, venom/miasma cannon, wings, 1 pair of scything talons.

Sometimes the pair of talons is swapped out for rending claws or the cannon is replaced by more talons for the really melee focused lists.

[Cheesegear]

Speaking of Tyranids, if one was going to run a Non Swarmlord Hive Tyrant, what loadout would be chosen? Melee, or two sets of guns? And if guns, which guns? And which build wants wings?

Devourers throw out the most shots, with Stratagems, are some of the deadliest guns you own.
Monstrous Claws are cheap-as-free (because your Hive Tyrants don't want to be in combat, that's why they <Fly>)
If your Hive Tyrant does want to be in combat, then chuck on Boneswords and go to town.

I'll see if you can spot a pattern.

Spoiler: Only 5?

Show

Kronos, Brigade
Hive Tyrant with Wings; x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms - 198 Points
Hive Tyrant with Wings; x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms - 198 Points
Neurothrope; The Norn Crown - 70 Points

Termagants (x15) - 60 Points
Termagants (x15) - 60 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points

Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Lictor; Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws - 45 Points
Pyrovore - 38 Points

Gargoyles (x15) - 90 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Biovores (x3) - 108 Points
Biovore - 36 Points
Biovore - 36 Points

Kraken, Supreme Command
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 213 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 189 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands

Total: 1999 Points

Again, this is one of those things where I'm like 'I guess (?) Hive Tyrants can Melee if they want to?

Spoiler

Show

Behemoth, Battalion (really?)
(W) Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Catalyst, Psychic Scream, WT; Tenacious Survivor,
Ymgarl Factor

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
The Horror, Psychic Scream

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Paroxysm, Onslaught

Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Behemoth, Outrider
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Jormungandr, Spearhead
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Mawloc - 104 Points
Mawloc - 104 Points
Mawloc - 104 Points
Biovore - 36 Points

Total: 1988 Points

Hive Tyrants obviously get better the more you have of them. Since I've only ever seen three played at a time...They've all been terrible. But I guess when you have 7, it's a different story.
Apparently, this is what a Melee Tyranid list looks like. With Jorm Tyrants in the back.

Spoiler: Tyranids *can* Melee, not that they should

Show

Kronos, Outrider
(W) Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms
Psychic Scream ; WT Soul Hunger

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points
Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points

Leviathan, Battalion
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Onslaught, Paroxysm ; Ymgarl Factor

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Onslaught, Psychic Scream

Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points
Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points

Leviathan, Supreme Command
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Psychic Scream, The Horror

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Catalyst, Paroxysm

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Catalyst, The Horror

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Psychic Scream, Catalyst

Total: 2000 Points

Hive Tyrants without Wings don't exist, that model is called 'The Swarmlord'.
The way I understand it, is that Hive Tyranits can Melee, though you don't really want them to if you can help it. Monstrous Rending Claws still do a ****-ton of Damage, the re-rolls To Wound increase the validity of Toxin Sacs, and are free. Did I mention that?

Because Tyrants can <Fly>, they often treat their Charge as a free move forwards. Do some wounds, maybe. Then, either your opponent Falls Back, or you do, in your turn. But, by that point you'll have 3+ unengaged Hive Tyrants within your opponent's DZ. You'll have probably played Rapid Regeneration at least once.

Carnifexes with x4 Devourers (or Deathspitters) are like A-tier units. So...If you've got Carnifexes, they are a suitable replacement for Hive Tyrants. They just don't <Fly>.

EDIT: I've just remembered that the Hive Tyrant kit is extremely limited and doesn't even have Monstrous Claws . IIRC, I used this method for a commission I did to make Devourers. But that's only 'cause up until now, Rending Claws on Monstrous Creatures were totally useless. I wish I could see pictures of the above armies. I'm assuming that they're just calling the claws in the Wings, 'MRCs' but I don't know that. Also, there's at least one 'Tyrant in there with Boneswords and Devourers, so there's no way you could justify the Wings as being 'Boneswords'. So, yeah. I don't know how you're supposed to do it.

I imagine that people taking Venom or Stranglethorn Cannons, are simply being hamstrung by the limitations of the kit, not that those options are actually any good.

EDIT II: That said, Rending Claws being useless, is probably a copy-paste into 8th, where they're not useless, but still free? Almost certainly an oversight and bound to change... Unless it doesn't. But, since Tyranids dominated the January tournament scene, I can't see how people (GW) aren't going to notice.

[Mystic Muse]

How does WYSIWYG applay to Hive Tyrants, considering they have 4 weapon slots but you have to put the wings in 2 of them?

[Brookshw]

How does WYSIWYG applay to Hive Tyrants, considering they have 4 weapon slots but you have to put the wings in 2 of them?

You can attach the wings to the carpace w/o too much work. I magnetize them on, along w/ all four arm slots. Looks fine and is easy, though a pin also helps keep them from flipping about.

[Mystic Muse]

You can attach the wings to the carpace w/o too much work. I magnetize them on, along w/ all four arm slots. Looks fine and is easy, though a pin also helps keep them from flipping about.

"Have to" was an exaggeration. I guess it's more a question of, what if I've already done that?

my local playgroup doesn't give a damn, this is just curiosity on my part in case I play with other people, or if I go to Adepticon or something.

[Forum Explorer]

Devourers throw out the most shots, with Stratagems, are some of the deadliest guns you own.
Monstrous Claws are cheap-as-free (because your Hive Tyrants don't want to be in combat, that's why they <Fly>)
If your Hive Tyrant does want to be in combat, then chuck on Boneswords and go to town.

I'll see if you can spot a pattern.

Spoiler

Show

Behemoth, Battalion (really?)
(W) Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Catalyst, Psychic Scream, WT; Tenacious Survivor,
Ymgarl Factor

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
The Horror, Psychic Scream

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Paroxysm, Onslaught

Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Behemoth, Outrider
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Jormungandr, Spearhead
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Catalyst, Psychic Scream

Mawloc - 104 Points
Mawloc - 104 Points
Mawloc - 104 Points
Biovore - 36 Points

Total: 1988 Points

Hive Tyrants obviously get better the more you have of them. Since I've only ever seen three played at a time...They've all been terrible. But I guess when you have 7, it's a different story.
Apparently, this is what a Melee Tyranid list looks like. With Jorm Tyrants in the back.

Spoiler: Only 5?

Show

Kronos, Brigade
Hive Tyrant with Wings; x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms - 198 Points
Hive Tyrant with Wings; x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms - 198 Points
Neurothrope; The Norn Crown - 70 Points

Termagants (x15) - 60 Points
Termagants (x15) - 60 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points

Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Hive Guard; Impaler Cannon - 48 Points
Lictor; Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws - 45 Points
Pyrovore - 38 Points

Gargoyles (x15) - 90 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Biovores (x3) - 108 Points
Biovore - 36 Points
Biovore - 36 Points

Kraken, Supreme Command
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 213 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Boneswords, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 189 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands

Total: 1999 Points

Again, this is one of those things where I'm like 'I guess (?) Hive Tyrants can Melee if they want to?

Spoiler: Tyranids *can* Melee, not that they should

Show

Kronos, Outrider
(W) Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms
Psychic Scream ; WT Soul Hunger

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points
Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points

Leviathan, Battalion
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 193 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs
Onslaught, Paroxysm ; Ymgarl Factor

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 198 Points
x4 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Onslaught, Psychic Scream

Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points
Ripper Swarms (x3) - 33 Points

Mucloid Spore - 20 Points
Mucloid Spore - 20 Points

Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points
Mawloc; Biostatic Rattle - 104 Points

Leviathan, Supreme Command
Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Psychic Scream, The Horror

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Catalyst, Paroxysm

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Catalyst, The Horror

Hive Tyrant with Wings - 184 Points
x2 Devourers with Brainleech Worms, Monstrous Rending Claws
Psychic Scream, Catalyst

Total: 2000 Points

Hive Tyrants without Wings don't exist, that model is called 'The Swarmlord'.
The way I understand it, is that Hive Tyranits can Melee, though you don't really want them to if you can help it. Monstrous Rending Claws still do a ****-ton of Damage, the re-rolls To Wound increase the validity of Toxin Sacs, and are free. Did I mention that?

Because Tyrants can <Fly>, they often treat their Charge as a free move forwards. Do some wounds, maybe. Then, either your opponent Falls Back, or you do, in your turn. But, by that point you'll have 3+ unengaged Hive Tyrants within your opponent's DZ. You'll have probably played Rapid Regeneration at least once.

Carnifexes with x4 Devourers (or Deathspitters) are like A-tier units. So...If you've got Carnifexes, they are a suitable replacement for Hive Tyrants. They just don't <Fly>.

EDIT: I've just remembered that the Hive Tyrant kit is extremely limited and doesn't even have Monstrous Claws . IIRC, I used this method for a commission I did to make Devourers. But that's only 'cause up until now, Rending Claws on Monstrous Creatures were totally useless. I wish I could see pictures of the above armies. I'm assuming that they're just calling the claws in the Wings, 'MRCs' but I don't know that. Also, there's at least one 'Tyrant in there with Boneswords and Devourers, so there's no way you could justify the Wings as being 'Boneswords'. So, yeah. I don't know how you're supposed to do it.

I imagine that people taking Venom or Stranglethorn Cannons, are simply being hamstrung by the limitations of the kit, not that those options are actually any good.

EDIT II: That said, Rending Claws being useless, is probably a copy-paste into 8th, where they're not useless, but still free? Almost certainly an oversight and bound to change... Unless it doesn't. But, since Tyranids dominated the January tournament scene, I can't see how people (GW) aren't going to notice.

Where did you get those lists from? Also Jormungdar doesn't work on units with Fly.

[Grim Portent]

How does WYSIWYG applay to Hive Tyrants, considering they have 4 weapon slots but you have to put the wings in 2 of them?

The flying feet are scything talons, but obviously not everyone uses those, so some people do the wings on the back conversion to free an arm slot, others chop off the feet and replace them with other stuff, or double up guns on the single arm pair.

[Cheesegear]

How does WYSIWYG applay to Hive Tyrants, considering they have 4 weapon slots but you have to put the wings in 2 of them?

Well, as I said before, the Wings definitely look like MRCs, so you're covered there. Since MRCs are the best Melee weapon you can have (for now, until Tyranid errata realises that they should not be free), there's no problem.
The feet are also Scything Talons.

If you want two Devourers, you get 'em off the Carnifex kit. If you want four Devourers, and no Rending Claws, there are tutorials all over the internet on how to make Twin-Linked Deverours - which, in 8th Ed., just means 'two of'...Well, errr...Not really. Two weapons is better than a single Twin weapon in 8th Ed. But you can apply the same tutorials to make Twin Deathspitters, too. If you're into that sort of thing.

Overall though, generally speaking, to use a Hive Tyrant, generally requires some conversion work. I'm not a fan of the 'wings on the back' Tyrant, but, even that is a conversion. Because, quite frankly, the Hive Tyrant is a bad kit - unless you make The Swarmlord.

[9mm]

Bell of lost souls giving bullets of LVO news

Tau and Necrons next,

[Forum Explorer]

Bell of lost souls giving bullets of LVO news

Tau and Necrons next,

I wonder if GW realizes that Commander spam is only a thing because Crisis Suits are bad right now? Well that and Supreme Command Detachments being a thing.

[Renegade Paladin]

Got thirteen reservations for Saturday's tournament. In case we get no walk-ins and wind up with an odd number, I'm playing bye rounds. Being the TO, I need to keep the games simple and short. Therefore, list:

Spoiler

Show

Game Knight Winter Open - Bye Round List, 1500 Points

Cadian Battalion - 3 CP

Company Commander - 38
-Power fist
-Warlord; Grand Strategist

Tank Commander - 227
-Battle cannon, lascannon, 2x heavy bolters, storm bolter

Infantry Squad - 64
-Flamer, autocannon
-Vox-caster

Infantry Squad - 64
-Flamer, autocannon
-Vox-caster

Infantry Squad - 72
-Flamer, missile launcher
-Vox-caster

Command Squad - 69
-Heavy flamer, plasma gun
-Medi-pack, vox-caster

Ratlings - 45

Leman Russ Battle Tank - 168
-Battle cannon, 3x heavy bolters

Militarum Tempestus Patrol - 0 CP

Tempestor Prime - 45
-Power sword, bolt pistol

Militarum Tempestus Scions - 78
-2x plasma guns, power sword

Cadian Supreme Command - 1 CP

Company Commander - 30
-Relic of Lost Cadia

Company Commander - 30

Primaris Psyker - 46
-Terrifying Visions, Psychic Barrier

Baneblade - 524
-Sponsons; twin heavy bolters

I can't think of a better way for a Guard player to go for economy of action short of just running a Spearhead full of Russes.

Bell of lost souls giving bullets of LVO news

Tau and Necrons next,

That says Dark Eldar next, Tau and Necrons after that.

[Drasius]

Bell of lost souls giving bullets of LVO news

Tau and Necrons next,

For those of you who don't want to dirty your hands with the trash that is BoLS:

10:11 – WARHAMMER 40,000
Next 3 New Codexes: First Dark Eldar, will include rules for Cult Covens, Cabals
10:13 – T’au Empire Next: – Commander Spam will be addressed
10:14 – Necrons, after that. Dynasties included, Army will be more mobile.
10:15 – New Cryptek Model shown “IT’S HOT!”
New Imperial Knight “Thing” – Ad-Mech model “WOW”

[Drasius]

I can't think of a better way for a Guard player to go for economy of action short of just running a Spearhead full of Russes.

That says Dark Eldar next, Tau and Necrons after that.

3x Baneblade superheavy detatchment?

Also, ninjaed while copy-pasting.

[Requizen]

Necrooooooooons

I was at the panel and it was pretty good. Expect news on the next specialist game (either Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus) in the next month or two.

[Cheesegear]

For those of you who don't want to dirty your hands with the trash that is BoLS:

Basically the only hobby-related YouTuber I watch anymore. Definitely NSFW. ...Just an Australian tradie who hates GW almost as much as he loves them (almost like myself).

That is, get read to hear the same news over and over again in the next few weeks (if you keep going to BoLS).

[Tome]

Whoo! Finally my Tau can be relevant again.

[Drasius]

Basically the only hobby-related YouTuber I watch anymore. Definitely NSFW. ...Just an Australian tradie who hates GW almost as much as he loves them (almost like myself).

That is, get read to hear the same news over and over again in the next few weeks (if you keep going to BoLS).

If you go to BoLS or Spikey Bits or any of the other cancer sites, you deserve everything you get.

[Blackhawk748]

Necrooooooooons

I was at the panel and it was pretty good. Expect news on the next specialist game (either Battlefleet Gothic or Titanicus) in the next month or two.

Battle fleet Gothic Ahoy!! I need some ship minis for Rogue Trader

[Drasius]

Battle fleet Gothic Ahoy!! I need some ship minis for Rogue Trader

Given that we've had leaks and tidbits for Titanicus for months now and BFG has had nothing significant, I wouldn't get your hopes up too high for BFG first. Still, who knows these days, especially with BFG2 announced the other day.