Overwatch: Thread of the Game

[Rynjin]

Attacking Brigitte from the rear is a harder prospect than it sounds. Unlike Rein, Brig is small and nimble enough to take advantage of the extraordinary benefit of being a character that can see in a third person view in an FPS. Which is an often overlooked boon in any aspect of the game.

There's a reason that there are a few cosmetic items (namely, the dance taunts like Conga, which can be canceled at any time) that are banned from play in competitive TF2.

Getting an ambush is difficult when your opponent has a wider FOV, a higher perspective, and the ability to safely corner perk.

[Avilan the Grey]

Attacking Brigitte from the rear is a harder prospect than it sounds. Unlike Rein, Brig is small and nimble enough to take advantage of the extraordinary benefit of being a character that can see in a third person view in an FPS. Which is an often overlooked boon in any aspect of the game.

There's a reason that there are a few cosmetic items (namely, the dance taunts like Conga, which can be canceled at any time) that are banned from play in competitive TF2.

Getting an ambush is difficult when your opponent has a wider FOV, a higher perspective, and the ability to safely corner perk.

Again, in a team that even rudimentary works together characters like Brig is far less of a threat. Also, when it comes to annoying characters I am a true believe in displacement. Either of me, or rather, of them (I mainly use Junkrat's mine and of course Lucio's boop to "juggle" annoying characters. To the point that I don't care if I charge Zarya's bubble as long as she is somewhere else very quickly).

Now of course about a third of the times playing QP you get a team that either are too cowardly (never dare pushing) or just don't click in any way at all, and I had one of those this morning. I was doing Moira (because I want to get better at her) and I kept getting checked by the enemy Zombra, who, somehow, everyone else on the team ignored. I kept getting stealthed on and ambushed by her 8 or 9 times I think. To the point that she was waiting for me running back from spawn, stealthing behind me and killing me several times.
I prefer to play Moira very aggressively (she is superb as a flanker and killer of stragglers) but yes, flanking only works if you're not outflanked while flanking. I know this.


Edit: Anyone else thinks that Moira's default skin is one of the best in the game? The only custom skin I am interested for her is the Blackwatch one and that cannot be bought. All other skins are worse than the default, IMHO (I would buy Pale if it had red hair. I would never change her hair color).

[thethird]

The more I play Brigitte the more I play Mercy. Brigitte has a nice burst heal, but cannot really mantain healing a whole team. So unless there is another support I dont really bother. And I am enjoying Mercy.

Brigitte is slow and can be quickly outflanked. Even if you can see behind you with the shield up most people refrain from attacking at a close enough range that it is actually useful. And if you turn you might expose your back to the rest of the enemy team.

[Rynjin]

Again, in a team that even rudimentary works together characters like Brig is far less of a threat. Also, when it comes to annoying characters I am a true believe in displacement. Either of me, or rather, of them (I mainly use Junkrat's mine and of course Lucio's boop to "juggle" annoying characters. To the point that I don't care if I charge Zarya's bubble as long as she is somewhere else very quickly).

Only marginally less annoying than the generic ADAPTGITUDLRN2PLAY is the generic "use teamwork" argument.

Your opponent, in this case Brig, also has a team. If you are sending 2-3 of your team to deal with ONE of theirs, their team has made out like a bandit in that fight.

[The_Jackal]

The more I play Brigitte the more I play Mercy. Brigitte has a nice burst heal, but cannot really mantain healing a whole team. So unless there is another support I dont really bother. And I am enjoying Mercy.

Do what you want, because the game is for fun, but if you're playing Brig to heal your entire team, you're doing it wrong. Her job is to drop her pack on a focus target, boosting health by 150, then get back into the melee, busting face with your mace.

Brigitte is slow and can be quickly outflanked. Even if you can see behind you with the shield up most people refrain from attacking at a close enough range that it is actually useful. And if you turn you might expose your back to the rest of the enemy team.

She's got one of the highest base running speeds of any character. Only Tracer runs faster. As for being flanked, so what? You're the most dive-resistant Hero in the entire game. Watch the kill feed. If I had to guess, I'm thinking you're gotten used to Mercy's "be anywhere my team is" mobility, and Brig definitely is less fast than that. But she's harder than the hobs of Hell, and if you have the map and game sense to not just waddle into the enemy spam, you should have no problems.

Spoiler: NSFW Video making my point for me

Show

[Resileaf]

I would argue another problem with characters like Brigitte in quick play is that people just about never change characters, choosing to keep the same one for the entire match, no matter how much they get countered. So if you've got someone who likes to play one of those characters that Brigitte counters well, he's going to get wrecked because he never changes and keeps getting countered.
Combine that with teams barely communicating, and you've got a recipe for complaints and salt.

[Keltest]

Only marginally less annoying than the generic ADAPTGITUDLRN2PLAY is the generic "use teamwork" argument.

Your opponent, in this case Brig, also has a team. If you are sending 2-3 of your team to deal with ONE of theirs, their team has made out like a bandit in that fight.

Up until they realize that their healer is dead and they lose all of the power behind her. Unlike, say, Roadhog, Brig doesn't want the enemy team focusing her, because that will kill her very quickly. She's a very strong duelist against anybody she can catch, but she is not a tank, and should not be treated as one by your team.

[Velaryon]

Also, there's no such thing as a Symmetra with skill, to say nothing of my own skill or higher.

That's not true at all. You've always equated "skill" with "aim," which I've disagreed with but we've had that debate before. Now that's not even applicable to Symmetra anymore since her last major rework.

She doesn't auto-lock anymore, which means she takes the same amount of aiming skill as Zarya. Her turrets have been redesigned to allow fast-paced tactical thinking and constant readjusting. Her ultimate is no longer simply a matter of putting it out of the way where the enemy team won't find it, and its positioning is much more important than it used to be.

For previous incarnations of Symmetra, I understood your point of view but disagreed with it. Now I can't tell whether you're unfamiliar with how she works anymore, or you're blatantly biased against her.

[The_Jackal]

That's not true at all. You've always equated "skill" with "aim," which I've disagreed with but we've had that debate before. Now that's not even applicable to Symmetra anymore since her last major rework.

She doesn't auto-lock anymore, which means she takes the same amount of aiming skill as Zarya. Her turrets have been redesigned to allow fast-paced tactical thinking and constant readjusting. Her ultimate is no longer simply a matter of putting it out of the way where the enemy team won't find it, and its positioning is much more important than it used to be.

First of all, let's not pretend that Zarya is a really challenging aim-centric Hero. She spams bombs and occasionally uses the beam to burn enemies through their defensive abilities like Deflect or Matrix. But neither hero relies primarily on the beam to dish out damage.

Sym? She's still primarily throwing turrets and blobs, the range on her left-click is 12 meters, which puts it just over Winston's Tesla range. Is it harder to hit with than the leash? Sure. But she's not remotely dependent on the beam to be effective, in fact she's far, far more effective, without ever touching the beam, courtesy of being able to throw up a cluster of turrets anywhere in the vicinity of the fight. Another way of saying 'constantly readjusting' is 'no planning or forethought'.

For previous incarnations of Symmetra, I understood your point of view but disagreed with it. Now I can't tell whether you're unfamiliar with how she works anymore, or you're blatantly biased against her.

She's the same spudtastic turret hero she's always been. I will grant you the beam takes a modicum of skill to land, but given its limited range, and no headshots, you're not exactly being challenged to the zenith of human capacity. Honestly, if you can't keep a beam on a target that's 12 meters away in Overwatch, you really are a potato. It might be a little harder on Tracer or Baby D.va, but this isn't like bringing off Doomfist rollouts or predicing a Zenyatta headbarrage, or capping someone with a Widow hookshot.

My stance on skill hasn't changed, so I'm not surprised you still disagree with me. The level of awareness it takes to make sound decisions in Overwatch can be built in an afternoon. Game sense, how to use your hero's abilities and manage their cooldowns, these sarcastic air-quotes "skills" take little more than the player paying attention to what they're doing and what their teammates are doing. How many top-tier streamers ignore these "skills" altogether, and instead dumpster entire enemy teams with their actual skills?

I'm not saying that game sense and positioning aren't important, but the fundamentals can be taught in a paragraph, and if you're still failing after the lesson, it's not because you haven't developed a skill, it's because you're not paying attention.

[Avilan the Grey]

Only marginally less annoying than the generic ADAPTGITUDLRN2PLAY is the generic "use teamwork" argument.

Your opponent, in this case Brig, also has a team. If you are sending 2-3 of your team to deal with ONE of theirs, their team has made out like a bandit in that fight.

Yes, and I wasn't even making "an argument", I was stating a fact:
If your team work together, individual enemy heroes cannot dominate you too badly. Even if they also have a team.
Heck if they also have a team going, Brig is probably protecting the team, not picking your side off one by one.

Again, I am not saying "play as a team, stupid". I never said "send 2-3 to deal with one hero". I am saying "automatically, by playing as a team, she cannot dominate single party members". No need to deal with her specifically. And by playing as a team you also automatically force her back to protect HER team. See?

Turrets, Bastions and Pharahs needs specific attention even if you play as a team. At least one hitscan player should be on the field if the enemy play Phara. Unless you are the expert Junkrat I saw in a POTG the other day who used his tire to kill a Phara / Mercy teamup by having it climb a tower and then jump to ANOTHER tower and then detonate between them high up in the air. But that's... not realistic.

[Rynjin]

As I recall, the original topic of discussion was Brig's extremely high pick/win rate in competitive matches. My point is, if your suggestion (which essentially boils down to "play the game") was such a silver bullet for countering Brig, she wouldn't be so dominant. They are basic tactics that any comp team will employ...and she's still very, very good.

[Avilan the Grey]

As I recall, the original topic of discussion was Brig's extremely high pick/win rate in competitive matches. My point is, if your suggestion (which essentially boils down to "play the game") was such a silver bullet for countering Brig, she wouldn't be so dominant. They are basic tactics that any comp team will employ...and she's still very, very good.

Of course she is. Also, virtually every single new hero has been slightly overpowered (I suspect on purpose) in the beginning.
But again, it is funny that for every new character that comes in, there is all this hatred for the "OP" (and often also "No skill heroes" as a reason to nerf or ban them).

Heroes that both have been accused of being OP AND too weak at the same time (that I know of):
Mercy
Symetra
Junkrat

Mercy is STILL being complained about as a "must have" and "OP" at the same time as there is STILL a rage about her being pathetic and awful and unplayable due to nerfs.
And the whole discussion above about Sym being "a no skill character" which I find is downright hilarious. She is one of the top 3 most difficult heroes together with Sombra and Genji. Still. She MIGHT have moved down to 4th and being replaced by Zarya after her flying sticky turrets were introduced, but I doubt it.

Brig is a very popular pick. It will change. But she is not broken. She is still picked far less than D.Va. She is still less picked than Rein was a year ago. Heck, she is picked less than Widowmaker on pro teams, AFAIK.

[Velaryon]

My stance on skill hasn't changed, so I'm not surprised you still disagree with me.

Yup. And you're still wrong, but clearly neither of us will convince the other, so I'm not gonna waste the effort.

[The_Jackal]

Of course she is. Also, virtually every single new hero has been slightly overpowered (I suspect on purpose) in the beginning.
But again, it is funny that for every new character that comes in, there is all this hatred for the "OP" (and often also "No skill heroes" as a reason to nerf or ban them).

Sombra has never been dominant in general play, and even now with her power at its peak isn't close to a meta pick. Ana was certainly strong, but it wasn't because she was easy to play, it was because her ultimate gave Reinhardt/Reaper an 'I win' button. Orisa has never been overpowered, just incredibly boring to play against. Doomfist was overpowered for about a week before he was nerfed into being somewhat challenging to play, and now he's a solid map-dependent pick.

Heroes that both have been accused of being OP AND too weak at the same time (that I know of):
Mercy
Symetra
Junkrat

You may as well add Mei to that list.

Mercy is STILL being complained about as a "must have" and "OP" at the same time as there is STILL a rage about her being pathetic and awful and unplayable due to nerfs.
And the whole discussion above about Sym being "a no skill character" which I find is downright hilarious. She is one of the top 3 most difficult heroes together with Sombra and Genji. Still. She MIGHT have moved down to 4th and being replaced by Zarya after her flying sticky turrets were introduced, but I doubt it.

The fundamental problem you're grappling with is the gulf between effectiveness and fun. Mercy is incredibly effective. She is absolutely not fun (to play, or to play against). Symmetra and Mei are both highly ineffective, but also intensely frustrating to play against. Add Torb to that list if you're on console, I guess. Junkrat is fun to play, but wildly unfun to play against, and in certain maps (Anubis, for example) is very effective.

Brig is a very popular pick. It will change. But she is not broken. She is still picked far less than D.Va. She is still less picked than Rein was a year ago. Heck, she is picked less than Widowmaker on pro teams, AFAIK.

Brig is a popular pick for the same reason Moira and Mercy are popular picks: They're all incredibly effective, and the developers have gated coveted rewards behind winning matches and SR gain. And of course she's not picked as much as Widow on pro teams, pro teams have no scrubs. That's why they're pro teams.

Ultimately, what all these heroes have in common is that they're scrub-friendly picks. Some of them are more effective than others, but they're all incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against if you actually want to play a Hero that requires skill.

[Keltest]

As I recall, the original topic of discussion was Brig's extremely high pick/win rate in competitive matches. My point is, if your suggestion (which essentially boils down to "play the game") was such a silver bullet for countering Brig, she wouldn't be so dominant. They are basic tactics that any comp team will employ...and she's still very, very good.

I mean, "focus the healer!" is pretty universal advice. I cant really think of any healers where taking them out quickly is a bad strategy. And since the only alternative is to play with no support... yeah, no thanks.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

See, to me that makes a heck of a lot more sense than NOT doing it that way (besides they never have a single counter. A player over the skill level of "how do I move left" can in theory figure out how to counter any other hero except maybe Junkrat vs Pharah). The alternative would be a game where the individual heroes doesn't matter, and that would be well... as awful and unfun as PubG / Fortnite.

It's a spectrum, really. There's a similar spectrum in fighting games: you have games that are primarily about mastering the basic systems of the game, and games that are about mastering character-specific systems. (If you have eight minutes, there's a neat breakdown of these two types of fighting games.) And even then, most character-mastery games still strive for as many even matchups as possible, because it's part of a basic fairness of the game.

Individual heroes can still matter even if there's no win percentage to gain from picking a certain hero versus a certain other hero. Synergies are one way: by picking heroes who work well together, you can gain a win percentage advantage. Another way for individual heroes to matter is just personal preference. Some players like one particular gameplay style over another, and will feel more comfortable on one particular character. (Ironically, creating harder counters in a game and expecting players to switch off to deal with counters both provide negative value for players who want to excel at a particular character and be comfortable on them.)

The really interesting thing is that while it takes pretty low levels of gamesense skill to understand how hard counters work, it takes much higher levels of gamesense skill to understand how and why synergies work, because they're generally subtler and more multidimensional than "pick hitscan, kill Pharah".

That said, Overwatch is how it is, and there's not much you could do to change the existence of harder counters in the game as it stands.

Ultimately, what all these heroes have in common is that they're scrub-friendly picks. Some of them are more effective than others, but they're all incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against if you actually want to play a Hero that requires skill.

Erm, just gonna point out the irony here. "X hero takes NO SKILL" is a classic scrub line.

[Rynjin]

Brig is a popular pick for the same reason Moira and Mercy are popular picks: They're all incredibly effective, and the developers have gated coveted rewards behind winning matches and SR gain. And of course she's not picked as much as Widow on pro teams, pro teams have no scrubs. That's why they're pro teams.

Ultimately, what all these heroes have in common is that they're scrub-friendly picks. Some of them are more effective than others, but they're all incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against if you actually want to play a Hero that requires skill.

...You do realize you are the literal definition of a scrub, right? Complaining about tactics and characters you don't like that are effective because you see them as "cheap" or "low skill" is THE hallmark of a scrub.

Discussions can be had about balance, but that's a whole other discussion aside your weird hyperfocus on single aspects of a game and absolute dismissal of different kinds of skillsets.

I mean, "focus the healer!" is pretty universal advice. I cant really think of any healers where taking them out quickly is a bad strategy. And since the only alternative is to play with no support... yeah, no thanks.

That's part of the reason why Brig, Lucio, and Moira are so good; compared to other healers (especially healers in other games) they're fairly hard to focus down. Brig isn't a tank, but she's sturdy and can snowball if she manages to take down one of her assailants. Moira does solid damage at a good range and has a pretty safe escape. Lucio is just...fast.

Combined with Overwatch's meta usually involving multiple healers, and Brig's ability to DIE SLOWLY while occupying multiple of the enemy team is at least as valuable as her ability to heal.

[NeoVid]

Sombra has never been dominant in general play, and even now with her power at its peak isn't close to a meta pick.

Her changes were a nerf for the highest-end players who could already manage her cooldowns. I have no idea whether making a character easier for the average person to use is a good thing... after all, I know multiple people who won't play OW because Bastion is OP.

[The_Jackal]

Erm, just gonna point out the irony here. "X hero takes NO SKILL" is a classic scrub line.

...You do realize you are the literal definition of a scrub, right? Complaining about tactics and characters you don't like that are effective because you see them as "cheap" or "low skill" is THE hallmark of a scrub.

Sirlin is full of BS. The way you know he's full of BS is that his base example of "competitive game" is Capcom's Street Fighter, a game which has never comes within a throwing distance of balance in its entire series. His answer to 'Your game balance sucks' is 'Use the most overpowered hero instead of complaining about it', which, if you've got unlimited time and a high tolerance for tedium, would still not prove that the game is really balanced, but only proves that you can use the most unbalanced thing in the game to win.

Did you watch the video I posted? Gold to GM in a week with Brig. 80% win rate. I'd do the same, but I have a full time job, and better things to do than prove the demonstrably obvious.

[thethird]

Do what you want, because the game is for fun, but if you're playing Brig to heal your entire team, you're doing it wrong. Her job is to drop her pack on a focus target, boosting health by 150, then get back into the melee, busting face with your mace.

She's got one of the highest base running speeds of any character. Only Tracer runs faster. As for being flanked, so what? You're the most dive-resistant Hero in the entire game. Watch the kill feed. If I had to guess, I'm thinking you're gotten used to Mercy's "be anywhere my team is" mobility, and Brig definitely is less fast than that. But she's harder than the hobs of Hell, and if you have the map and game sense to not just waddle into the enemy spam, you should have no problems.

Spoiler: NSFW Video making my point for me

Show

I am in agreement. I actually wanted to express that as Brigitte I dont try to get everyone healed. But I feel that is a useful thing to have. So when there is no other support in the team I switch to Mercy. Otherwise I am happy to play Brigitte. If there are already two supports and no tanks I switch to Reinhardt or Orisa, or D.Va. If there are already two supports and a tank I normally switch to Roadhog. If there are two supports and two tanks, which rarely happens, I normally go for soldier 76.

On speed except for Orissa and Roadhog most characters I play have some skill which translate on them going faster. Brigitte doesnt have that and she has no ranged attack so the time spent on getting to melee feels longer.

When I have been able to form a more or less stable team with people playing to the objectives it doesnt matter. But when I get paired with all dps all the time who dont bother to play together I enjoy Mercy more (even if I am wondering if there is a way to mute the I need healing thingie)

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Sirlin is full of BS. The way you know he's full of BS is that his base example of "competitive game" is Capcom's Street Fighter, a game which has never comes within a throwing distance of balance in its entire series. His answer to 'Your game balance sucks' is 'Use the most overpowered hero instead of complaining about it', which, if you've got unlimited time and a high tolerance for tedium, would still not prove that the game is really balanced, but only proves that you can use the most unbalanced thing in the game to win.

Did you watch the video I posted? Gold to GM in a week with Brig. 80% win rate. I'd do the same, but I have a full time job, and better things to do than prove the demonstrably obvious.

I'd reply, but scrubs don't get no love from me.

I mean, I get it. You want your time spent learning how to click on heads to be validated. But that doesn't mean a character is bad for the game. Also, a Gold to GM challenge only proves that a given hero is good at showcasing the skill of the player, not the opposite. If Brigitte was a magic I-win button, there'd be a lot more players in GM.

[The_Jackal]

I'd reply, but scrubs don't get no love from me.

But you did reply.

I mean, I get it. You want your time spent learning how to click on heads to be validated. But that doesn't mean a character is bad for the game. Also, a Gold to GM challenge only proves that a given hero is good at showcasing the skill of the player, not the opposite.

So this random, non-contenders, non-professional player just happens to be head and shoulders better than any Master's player or below? Color me skeptical.

If Brigitte was a magic I-win button, there'd be a lot more players in GM.

No there wouldn't. The SR rankings are a zero-sum game. I'm not saying Brig can't be countered, right now the meta has a strong rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Spam > Goats > Dive > Spam. But Brig has the highest win rate of any support pick, across all difficulty tiers. Bronze to Grandmaster, Brig's win rate is top out of all support picks.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

But you did reply.

I mean, sometimes I like having fun.

So this random, non-contenders, non-professional player just happens to be head and shoulders better than any Master's player or below? Color me skeptical.

The answer is apparently "yes", because nobody in those ranks made decisions that let them deal with this tactic.

If someone uses a tactic that you have a hard time against, and you don't adjust to deal with it, that loss is 100% on you.

No there wouldn't. The SR rankings are a zero-sum game. I'm not saying Brig can't be countered, right now the meta has a strong rock/paper/scissors dynamic. Spam > Goats > Dive > Spam. But Brig has the highest win rate of any support pick, across all difficulty tiers. Bronze to Grandmaster, Brig's win rate is top out of all support picks.

I agree that hard counters aren't an enjoyable part of the game (see my reply to Avilan), and Brig is certainly a bit overtuned.

That doesn't make it any less scrubby to complain about her if you refuse to adapt your play to her. Someone starts playing "spammy", you play around it. Brig may be overtuned at 56% overall comp winrate, but don't pretend like she's OP OP.

[Rynjin]

Did you watch the video I posted?

Not a second of it.

Gold to GM in a week with Brig. 80% win rate.

Neato burrito. Not sure what point that's meant to prove; we've all been saying Brig is a bit too good.

I'd do the same, but I have a full time job, and better things to do than prove the demonstrably obvious.

Like post on a forum about how very, very little you understand what skill is in regards to an FPS and what makes competitive players of ANY game good at it, or how to separate out your complaints between "this is too effective" and "this is too easy".

Hint: Those two things are not the same thing. FOO strategies are important for the health of a game; optimal strategies at any level of play are not.

Brig is currently a FOO pick with a little too much reach, like Junkrat but tuned higher. That is an issue.

How "easy" she is to play isn't relevant to that discussion though, only the balance in total. If she was a highly complex, technical character that still had a 60%+ winrate she would still need rebalancing. No amount of salt or undeserved condescension in the world will change that.

[Avilan the Grey]

Sombra has never been dominant in general play, and even now with her power at its peak isn't close to a meta pick. Ana was certainly strong, but it wasn't because she was easy to play, it was because her ultimate gave Reinhardt/Reaper an 'I win' button. Orisa has never been overpowered, just incredibly boring to play against. Doomfist was overpowered for about a week before he was nerfed into being somewhat challenging to play, and now he's a solid map-dependent pick.



You may as well add Mei to that list.
---
Brig is a popular pick for the same reason Moira and Mercy are popular picks: They're all incredibly effective, and the developers have gated coveted rewards behind winning matches and SR gain. And of course she's not picked as much as Widow on pro teams, pro teams have no scrubs. That's why they're pro teams.

Ultimately, what all these heroes have in common is that they're scrub-friendly picks. Some of them are more effective than others, but they're all incredibly frustrating and annoying to play against if you actually want to play a Hero that requires skill.

Jeff said, on the very first introduction of the game, that they promised that there would be viable heroes for non-twitch-based players. If you don't like that, Overwatch clearly isn't for you. The idea of "low skill" based characters being viable is built into the game from the start. That said Brig is the first one star hero introduced since the game launched. ALL other new heroes have been ranked as difficulty 2 or 3. In other words Brigitte is the ONLY "noob" hero since 2016.

Edit: Also, mechanical skill and tactical skill are not all the same. Just because you have mastered headshots or whatever doesn't make you a good player. Do you position right? Can you move and reposition quickly? Are you able to defend yourself and your teammates at any given time? Do you know when to absolutely not die and do you know when a suicide attack actually is a good option? Would you actually be able to determine the best placement of Syms turrets and shield just because you can aim well? Etc.


Also, Moira is VERY fun to play. And I am not the only one saying that. She is TONS of fun.

Edit again, regarding your last sentence:
From over here it seems very simple. If you claim that it is frustrating to lose against "low skill heroes" when you "prefer a character that needs skill" it seems to me that you need to practice more. The simple explanation of course is that you are not as good with that hero as you think you are. It is easy to blame "luck" or "no skill noobs" when in reality you lack skill. I don't play hitscan heroes, because I am 46 years old and lack good hand / eye coordination to begin with. I won't even attempt to play them.
Seriously, the only viable solutions in that scenario is A) train more. B) Change hero or C) Quit the game and never play it again.

...And yet, most actual scrubs (unlike inexperienced and / or realistic players, who are NEVER scrubs even when new), as pointed out above, would pick Reaper, Hanzo, Genji or Widowmaker and refuse to switch, because they think they are cool (both They Themselves, for playing them, and the characters). And of course blame everyone else for failing.

[Avilan the Grey]

I know it's a bad thing because it means you have made a heck of a bad job before it, but I think the best feeling I ever get in this game is when we manages to halt a payload at the end.
This morning was one of the best ones, we had screwed up royally and the other team had half the payload on the last stop in Eichenwalde with over 2 min 30 sec left. We managed to both hold it, and by the end push it all the way to the door again.

It kind of felt like if we were the Avengers and had managed to defeat Thanos at the end

[The_Jackal]

Jeff said, on the very first introduction of the game, that they promised that there would be viable heroes for non-twitch-based players.

Where exactly in the preview material is it said that the game would cater to potatoes?

If you don't like that, Overwatch clearly isn't for you. The idea of "low skill" based characters being viable is built into the game from the start. That said Brig is the first one star hero introduced since the game launched. ALL other new heroes have been ranked as difficulty 2 or 3. In other words Brigitte is the ONLY "noob" hero since 2016.

I don't have a problem with low skill heroes being viable. I have a problem with low-skill heroes being objectively, demonstrably better than heroes who require more mechanical skill and precision. What on earth is the point of putting in a character that's difficult to play well, if you can get better results with a character who requires little more than the ability to press w and left-click?

The definition of viable is what's at stake here. Does viable mean that some potato should expect to ride all the way to GM with a hero that's entirely mechanically unchallenging? Or does it mean that a well-played hero with a high-skill floor should expect to be comparable to the median player using a skill-dependent Hero?

Edit: Also, mechanical skill and tactical skill are not all the same. Just because you have mastered headshots or whatever doesn't make you a good player. Do you position right? Can you move and reposition quickly? Are you able to defend yourself and your teammates at any given time? Do you know when to absolutely not die and do you know when a suicide attack actually is a good option?

STOP. Just stop. This argument is tired. I have rebutted it incessant times. Tactical choices in this game are not difficult. Coordinate with your group, use high ground, pay attention to the kill feed. These are concept that are neither difficult to understand or execute. I mean, you can see your teammates through walls, and you've got a kill feed showing when your enemies get picked. How hard is it to figure out when you should cut your losses and jump off the map to deny your enemies ult charge?

Would you actually be able to determine the best placement of Syms turrets and shield just because you can aim well? Etc.

Considering Sym can start off every encounter with her turrets at a choke point, and then regenerate a charge every 10 seconds, I don't think well-considered placement is a very demanding job. Frankly, it wasn't even a demanding job before the Sym re-work, because the only time you should be playing Sym in the first place is when you've got a choke-point you can abuse. Playing Sym on Ilios Well? Plan on losing SR.

Also, Moira is VERY fun to play. And I am not the only one saying that. She is TONS of fun.

Not relevant to this discussion.

Edit again, regarding your last sentence:
From over here it seems very simple. If you claim that it is frustrating to lose against "low skill heroes" when you "prefer a character that needs skill" it seems to me that you need to practice more.

I'm actually pretty satisfied with my overall statistical performance on most hitscan heroes. I'd like to push up my crit rate, but my averages in Hero Damage, Elims, Accuracy, Final Blows, etc., are all pretty solid. Look, you be the judge and tell me if you think I've got the stat-line of a spud player.

The simple explanation of course is that you are not as good with that hero as you think you are. It is easy to blame "luck" or "no skill noobs" when in reality you lack skill. I don't play hitscan heroes, because I am 46 years old and lack good hand / eye coordination to begin with. I won't even attempt to play them.

So, because you won't even *try* to get better at the hard parts of the game, the easy parts need to be buffed to the point where you get a free ride into Diamond, is that it?

Seriously, the only viable solutions in that scenario is A) train more. B) Change hero or C) Quit the game and never play it again.

Except that if my aim is to climb in SR, the actual viable solution is to insta-lock to a potato-hero. And it would take a lot, LOT less effort than "train more".

...And yet, most actual scrubs (unlike inexperienced and / or realistic players, who are NEVER scrubs even when new), as pointed out above, would pick Reaper, Hanzo, Genji or Widowmaker and refuse to switch, because they think they are cool (both They Themselves, for playing them, and the characters). And of course blame everyone else for failing.

Again, you're using this scrub term like you expect it to mean something other than 'no skill'. If you actually look at the top-picked Heroes in Bronze, they're Mercy, Reinhardt, Moira, D.va, and Junkrat. You have to get all the way to the top 1% of players before you see more people picking Widowmaker or Hanzo than Mercy.

[Rynjin]

STOP. Just stop. This argument is tired. I have rebutted it incessant times. Tactical choices in this game are not difficult. Coordinate with your group, use high ground, pay attention to the kill feed. These are concept that are neither difficult to understand or execute. I mean, you can see your teammates through walls, and you've got a kill feed showing when your enemies get picked. How hard is it to figure out when you should cut your losses and jump off the map to deny your enemies ult charge?

There's a difference between knowing and internalizing, as well as executing and executing properly. Doing the right thing late can often be worse than doing the wrong thing in high level play for an FPS.

Maybe I'm wrong; I'll admit I've never had the desire to play Overwatch at a competitive level. Maybe Overwatch really is just an overly simplistic braindead game where there's no difference between high level and low level play except aim...but somehow I doubt it.

I used to commonly play with Plat 6's players on TF2 (I helped start a 7 v 7 league, actually, but the format never took off), and aim is not the primary determining factor for who wins and who loses in a tight knit team game like that. It's not even the most important factor for what makes a player good on a lot of teams, extreme outlier players like b4nny's insane pipe accuracy notwithstanding.

Map knowledge, timing, positioning...these aren't things that are learned by rote in an afternoon. Sure, you can pick up the basics quickly (and that's what separates your average player from the pubstomper Steel/Silver players...guess that would be Silver/Gold in OW?), but there are a lot of precise things you need to keep track of in a game like this, particularly for the mobile skirmisher characters (Soldier/Scout in TF2, with a lot more diversity in OW, but Lucio is a good example). Rollouts in particular can be especially important, because getting your key team members into position even fractions of a second sooner can swing a whole game and put the enemy on the back foot.

If you want to see some extremely poor quality video of me playing Spy (Steel Highlander, admittedly not the highest skill place, it was about 6 months into me picking up the game on PC), I can show you the difference between a game where I win two/three matches for our team by utilizing proper map specific knowledge, versus one on a map I'd never played where I basically flail about and die repeatedly.

Deploying your team is a bit simpler in OW since it minimizes any character specific movement skills, but characters like Lucio and Pharrah have a lot of map learning (especially Pharrah; you need to know the map's sightlines from both sides inside and out to keep in mind when you're flying. Not just for your own sake but to protect your little butterfly towed along with you), and positioning is going to significantly vary for ANY character based on team comp and matchups in that specific game. Unlike TF2, you have a lot more characters to keep track of, since in Highlander you know there's 1 of each class, and in 6's you know there's generally going to be 2 Soldier/2 Scout/Demo/Medic to account for, with rare offclasses for Sniper and on one memorable occasion an offensive Engineer roll I wish I could find the video for again...the point is, matchups aren't always going to be so clear cut, since there are a lot of counter/counter-counter plays in OW that aren't available in other games.

Quite frankly if you really believe the game is as simple as you claim, I'm surprised you (or anyone else) plays it at all, much less for competitive reasons. That level of simplicity where the game's nuance is SO LOW that only twitch aim matters makes for a very boring game, and is only really fun for a casual experience (like most CoD games).

[BRC]

Again, you're using this scrub term like you expect it to mean something other than 'no skill'. If you actually look at the top-picked Heroes in Bronze, they're Mercy, Reinhardt, Moira, D.va, and Junkrat. You have to get all the way to the top 1% of players before you see more people picking Widowmaker or Hanzo than Mercy.

Why are you comparing pickrates of Snipers to a Support?

Mercy is a high-powered healer and asset to any team. Overwatch is a game that encourages teamwork. If more people are picking Mercy than Widowmaker, it's because every team wants a Support (And Mercy is a pretty powerful support), but not every map wants a Sniper.

Your point would be better made by comparing Mercy's pickrate to those of higher-skill support heroes like Zenyatta and Ana, characters that, hypothetically, would provide more benefit than Mercy in the hands of a high-skill player while filling a similar role.
(I wouldn't be surprised if those stats confirm your conclusions, Mercy is a pretty powerful support. I don't play Comp, but I've been led to believe she's a standard pick at just about all levels).

[Avilan the Grey]

Where exactly in the preview material is it said that the game would cater to potatoes?

He said it standing in front of the screen at Blizzcon 2014.
Also "potatoes". Cute.

As for the rest of your post, let's sum it up:
1. I am a lousy player, but I understand what I need to do.
2. You mentioned Moira among "heroes that are no fun".
3. This whole thing started because you went on a tangent about "no skill heroes ruining my fun", to sum it up.
4. If you are actually more concerned about your kill rate, not your actual contribution to your team then you are not in any way a good Overwatch player and I would definitely change team ASAP if I ended up in a game with you. It's not to be mean, but you are just not a team player and does not understand how to play well with others. Work on that. Please.

Why are you comparing pickrates of Snipers to a Support?

Mercy is a high-powered healer and asset to any team. Overwatch is a game that encourages teamwork. If more people are picking Mercy than Widowmaker, it's because every team wants a Support (And Mercy is a pretty powerful support), but not every map wants a Sniper.

Your point would be better made by comparing Mercy's pickrate to those of higher-skill support heroes like Zenyatta and Ana, characters that, hypothetically, would provide more benefit than Mercy in the hands of a high-skill player while filling a similar role.
(I wouldn't be surprised if those stats confirm your conclusions, Mercy is a pretty powerful support. I don't play Comp, but I've been led to believe she's a standard pick at just about all levels).

Indeed.,
Mercy is as far as I understand it, mainly picked on a competitive level if you need an extra slot for something specific. Otherwise most of the time you play Lucio, Brig, Zen or Ana + Moira. It's Moira, not Brig that is the must pick unless the enemy tactics or the specifics of your own tactic only leaves room for a single healer, in which case most teams still pick Mercy.