The LA-assignment Thread IV: Live Free or Hit Die Hard

[Zaq]

Obvious -0 for reasons already thoroughly covered.

This is basically a wallflower character. You can't be killed (at least not easily), but you also can't contribute anything worthwhile. You're just there, munching on the free XPs. It's perfect for someone who doesn't want to actually play the game.

Truly a ringing non-endorsement.

[Efrate]

Its definately -0, but I'm wondering how one would roleplay a swarm even with a hive mind. Just a we are borg mentality or something else.

[Inevitability]

Its definately -0, but I'm wondering how one would roleplay a swarm even with a hive mind. Just a we are borg mentality or something else.

An union of egoists would be interesting to play.

[Flickerdart]

Its definately -0, but I'm wondering how one would roleplay a swarm even with a hive mind. Just a we are borg mentality or something else.

The boring option is to have an "individual" emerge from within the swarm, possibly rotating personalities.

The fun option...well, a swarm is the opposite of an individual. An individual is mortal and fears harm to the self. A swarm fears the destruction of an individual no more than a nation fears the death of a citizen. It is unpleasant and best minimized, but the swarm lives on. An individual wants to satisfy its urges. It craves food, companionship, luxuries that it has personal, exclusive access to. A swarm would not understand luxury in this way - one gnat in a hive mind experiencing a tasty morsel is the same as all of them doing that.

What does a swarm desire, instead? This particular swarm is also undead and incorporeal. Though it's fairly stupid, it has average wisdom; a single swarm might thus be something of a philosopher that contains within it multitudes of thoughts and discourses. A swarm can hold mutually contradicting opinions, and indeed must, for alignment within an entity is the domain of singleton beings. In a disagreement between party members, the swarm might agree with all of them!

Without fear of death, and a desire to win "mind share" internally, a swarm takes risks and is always happy to re-visit prior arguments with a new perspective. Being able to parallelize thought makes a swarm the ideal Xanatos chessmaster (if it weren't so daft). Swarms also make excellent utility belt users - just because we agreed to paradrop over the enemy camp doesn't mean we shouldn't bring along the burrowing sand worm tamer's kit and the tree climbing gear. You know, just in case.

[Celestia]

Its definately -0, but I'm wondering how one would roleplay a swarm even with a hive mind. Just a we are borg mentality or something else.

You ever watch the Vindicators episode of Rick and Morty? Just play it like Million Ants.

[Nifft]

Its definately -0, but I'm wondering how one would roleplay a swarm even with a hive mind. Just a we are borg mentality or something else.

It's like an incarnation of 4chan as a creature.

Untouchable vermin, useless and impractical, but potentially annoying for everyone else.

[Dusk Raven]

The fun option...well, a swarm is the opposite of an individual. An individual is mortal and fears harm to the self. A swarm fears the destruction of an individual no more than a nation fears the death of a citizen. It is unpleasant and best minimized, but the swarm lives on. An individual wants to satisfy its urges. It craves food, companionship, luxuries that it has personal, exclusive access to. A swarm would not understand luxury in this way - one gnat in a hive mind experiencing a tasty morsel is the same as all of them doing that.

What does a swarm desire, instead? This particular swarm is also undead and incorporeal. Though it's fairly stupid, it has average wisdom; a single swarm might thus be something of a philosopher that contains within it multitudes of thoughts and discourses. A swarm can hold mutually contradicting opinions, and indeed must, for alignment within an entity is the domain of singleton beings. In a disagreement between party members, the swarm might agree with all of them!

Without fear of death, and a desire to win "mind share" internally, a swarm takes risks and is always happy to re-visit prior arguments with a new perspective. Being able to parallelize thought makes a swarm the ideal Xanatos chessmaster (if it weren't so daft). Swarms also make excellent utility belt users - just because we agreed to paradrop over the enemy camp doesn't mean we shouldn't bring along the burrowing sand worm tamer's kit and the tree climbing gear. You know, just in case.

At some point, I will have to write a story where one of the party members is a swarm... the above sounds like it would result in some interesting character interactions.

Anyway, I know this is out of turn (being that it's in the Fiend Folio), but given that a friend of mine is DMing and has allowed these revised LAs, I thought I'd ask. One player wants to play a Kaorti, and I've been trying to figure out what LA it should be. My instinct is a +0 or a +1, but I'm not experienced enough with this sort of thing to really guess....

[ViperMagnum357]

Anyway, I know this is out of turn (being that it's in the Fiend Folio), but given that a friend of mine is DMing and has allowed these revised LAs, I thought I'd ask. One player wants to play a Kaorti, and I've been trying to figure out what LA it should be. My instinct is a +0 or a +1, but I'm not experienced enough with this sort of thing to really guess....

Kaorti is a weak +1 LA. Only 2 RHD which are Outsider, it breaks even on Natural AC, comes out ahead on net abilities by +2 relative to it RHD, and has enough special abilities to trade off the Material weakness/getting locked into certain armors and still come out ahead of 2 levels worth of class features, so no LA is probably not a good idea.

[Inevitability]

Anyway, I know this is out of turn (being that it's in the Fiend Folio), but given that a friend of mine is DMing and has allowed these revised LAs, I thought I'd ask. One player wants to play a Kaorti, and I've been trying to figure out what LA it should be. My instinct is a +0 or a +1, but I'm not experienced enough with this sort of thing to really guess....

Let me eyeball this quickly.

[Evil] Outsider is one of the stronger types, and only 2 RHD is nice as well. -4 strength, +4 dexterity, +4 intelligence, +6 charisma is a nice array of stats. The bite is nearly useless. The SLAs are all pretty nifty but decrease in usefulness later on. Material Vulnerability and Vile Transformation matter very little, though the first does make things a bit difficult for casters.

Overall, I'd say they deserve +1 LA. The same goes for the 'template' provided in their statblock, though that one might be closer to +2.

[Falontani]

Let me eyeball this quickly.

[Evil] Outsider is one of the stronger types, and only 2 RHD is nice as well. -4 strength, +4 dexterity, +4 intelligence, +6 charisma is a nice array of stats. The bite is nearly useless. The SLAs are all pretty nifty but decrease in usefulness later on. Material Vulnerability and Vile Transformation matter very little, though the first does make things a bit difficult for casters.

Overall, I'd say they deserve +1 LA. The same goes for the 'template' provided in their statblock, though that one might be closer to +2.

I don't disagree with this statement, however the strongest ability they possess is Kaorti Resin which was described further in a web article. I'll post the web article when I'm at a computer, but basically they can turn any slashing? weapon into a x4 critical multiplier (so scimitar would be 18-20x4)

[GreatWyrmGold]

Several templates and undead (mostly of the incorporeal, soul-sucking variety) have been given positive level adjustments in these threads.

The templates have actually done well. Ghost is +3/+4, Skeleton is +1, Lich is +2, Vampire is +3. The bane wraith is a base creature, and playable at +0.

Don't forget the +1 LA tainted minion.

I thought it was obvious that I meant a future undead. Goes to show what happens when you assume.

On a side note I think a storm elemental and shambling mound would have good synergy, maybe throw a stormcaster into the mix for giggles?

I wonder if there are other odd-couple monster synergies we could find. Get enough together and we could either have a series of buddy cop movies or a sitcom. Or both!

This is basically a wallflower character. You can't be killed (at least not easily), but you also can't contribute anything worthwhile. You're just there, munching on the free XPs. It's perfect for someone who doesn't want to actually play the game.

You do something. You can knock off a point or two of the giant's attack and damage every turn, and can incapacitate wizards and their ilk in three or four rounds. Sure, that giant's still going to be a threat until someone starts dealing HP damage, and the fighter could probably kill the wizard quicker, but it's still something.
-0, though.

Its definately -0, but I'm wondering how one would roleplay a swarm even with a hive mind. Just a we are borg mentality or something else.

It could be a networked intelligence. In this case, probably one much smarter than any individual intelligence in the network.

[Flickerdart]

I thought it was obvious that I meant a future undead. Goes to show what happens when you assume.

As long as we are not cremated, we are all future undead.

[Inevitability]

As long as we are not cremated, we are all future undead.

Cremation is no issue for ghosts and the like.

[Flickerdart]

Cremation is no issue for ghosts and the like.

Can you raise a departed soul as a ghost if it doesn't naturally become one? That'd be neat.

[Inevitability]

Can you raise a departed soul as a ghost if it doesn't naturally become one? That'd be neat.

There's the Persuade to Manifest spell in Ghostwalk, which kinda does that.

[Inevitability]

Feral Yowler

Rejected names include 'bitey shrieker', 'unhappy yelper' and 'angery caterwauler'.

Anyways, just another magical beast. 7 RHD and medium size aren't awesome, but workable. The non-constitution stats aren't that impressive (18 strength, 17 dexterity, 7 intelligence, 14 wisdom, 16 charisma), but constitution itself is a whopping 27.

Main natural weapon is a 1d8 bite, backed up by 2 1d6 claws. About expected for a medium feline: so not great.

The special abilities are partially expected (Trip, Darkvision, Scent), but also include a few surprises. Minor Displacement gives sight-based attacks a 20% chance to miss, making it a useful passive boost. Yowl of Fear is nice, but ultimately pretty useless as it takes up an action and only causes a mild condition (Shaken). Fast Healing is rarely seen on creatures like this, but not unwelcome. Finally, there's immunity to Fear, Negative Energy, and Energy Drain, which is nice to have if nothing else.

Is the feral yowler powerful? No: for 7 RHD you could have a magical beast that's bigger, stronger, and capable of flight. Even the regular displacer beast, with only 6 RHD (and +0 LA), is more interesting on account of eating up less levels, having superior displacement, and being larger. That said, its immunities and fast healing give the yowler a decent niche, I'd argue.

While I think a case could be made for +0, I'm going to assign -0 here and see what people think. Do discuss!

[ViperMagnum357]

Feral Yowler: Net +36 abilities, only +3 natural AC, 7 Magical Beast RHD, no hands...if it were not for the significant ability boosts, this would easily be -0. The RHD are a wash, what I would consider one of 2 decent baseline types, and having only 3 natural AC at 7 RHD is a huge hit. Totaling up the special abilities, it comes in under what I would consider acceptable per RHD; then pushing just over the minimum with the excess ability scores before getting marked down for a lack of hands.

Overall, I am leaning towards a relatively decent LA -0: I think it is within one RHD of LA +0, but not quite enough there to also justify the lack of hands at 7 RHD.

[liquidformat]

I am going with -0 LA for the simple fact that it needs to double its rhd to become large and has no pounce/improved grab. If we only needed one or two rhd to hit large or if it had pounce it would be enough for +0, but as is -0.

[Celestia]

I am going with -0 LA for the simple fact that it needs to double its rhd to become large and has no pounce/improved grab. If we only needed one or two rhd to hit large or if it had pounce it would be enough for +0, but as is -0.

Ditto this.

[Zaq]

Rejected names include 'bitey shrieker', 'unhappy yelper' and 'angery caterwauler'.

Pretty sure I’ve read some reviews by such folks.

Jokes aside, 7 RHD is way too many HD for something with no thumbs and no especially interesting proactive options.

The numbers aren’t embarrassing, but with 7 HD, I need more than “not embarrassing.” I demand straight up impressive, and I’m not impressed by the numbers alone.

I’m not going to storm off in a huff if we end up on +0 or anything (it’s closer to +0 than several of the other recent -0s), but this thing is too dull for its HD for me to vote for higher than -0.

[Efrate]

The defensive abilities are very nice, but lacking pounce or imp grab is bad. Armor isnt awful since it can wear barding, but no thumbs hurts. That con can make a heck of a meldshsper base even if you have to spend feats on higher chakras. Incarnum fixes a lot of issues, and it would make an alright totemist.

I think the package is good enough to get a very weak plus 0. I wouldnt be excited about playing it but i wouldnt hate it and i could keep up.

[Lapak]

The defensive abilities are very nice, but lacking pounce or imp grab is bad. Armor isnt awful since it can wear barding, but no thumbs hurts. That con can make a heck of a meldshsper base even if you have to spend feats on higher chakras. Incarnum fixes a lot of issues, and it would make an alright totemist.

I think the package is good enough to get a very weak plus 0. I wouldnt be excited about playing it but i wouldnt hate it and i could keep up.

I was just pondering a Totemist build for this - or perhaps a Totemist/Unarmed Swordsage - and while I would have to actually build it out to compare the numbers and options I feel like it could swing a weak +0.

[Nifft]

I'm on the fence about + or - in front of the 0.

Abstaining, I guess.

[OgresAreCute]

This is one of "those" monsters, isn't it? The kind that no one ever uses, and no one even remembers they exist until they read a monster manual binding-to-binding and happens to see it.

It's got some alright features (trip) and the kind of ability scores you'd expect for this kinda thing. The +6 to hide and move silently somewhat helps to shore up the horrible amount of skillpoints it'll get (likely no more than 2 per level). Scent and darkvision are alright, various immunities (negative energy, energy drain, fear) are nice to have when they come up. This thing's only standout is its defensive abilities, packing a whopping +16 racial Con modifier, d10 hit dice and 20% miss chance, in addition to a bit of fast healing. You'll be starting the game at level 7 well into the triple digits, HP-wise. Now, in these threads it seems that most monsters with defensively-oriented abilities are not considered to be problematic, and if you rate it from a tier 3, proactive-not-reactive point of view, it's a clear -0. I think it's fine as a beefcake at +0 in a tier 4 environment, though.

Compared to the ECL 7 (as rated by these threads) Troll, which has the incredible ability of opposable thumbs, the screamy cat thing is a clearly inferior choice. So compared to that, I'll vote -0 I guess.



PS: I'm a time-traveler from the future, the next monster will be -0.

[Dimers]

Likewise. -0. Would not be excited to play a feral yowler. Defense is nice but doesn't win combats, and there's almost no noncombat material here.

[Inevitability]

LA changed to -0.

[AMX]

If that's a Feral Yowler, doesn't that mean there should also be Tame Yowlers?
And are they more playable?

[No brains]

If that's a Feral Yowler, doesn't that mean there should also be Tame Yowlers?
And are they more playable?

There would also be Domesticated Yowlers which may warrant a small positive LA.

[Covenant12]

I honestly like it, but it looks like a fairly solid -0. Should do well enough in a poorly optimized T4 game.

Echoing liquidformat and Celestia needs a way to impact, pounce and/or improved grab or something. The flavor text says something about rushes in and unleashes rapid attacks, but the mechanics don't back that up. Wolf/dog free trip never hurts, but I'd prefer a +0 barbarian tripper for that route.

Kinda wonder if the fear effect was supposed to be a free action? Could be nice for fear stacking builds like that, as written standard action for shaken is close to worthless.

Though the stats are nice, in addition to mediocre overall package it has no hands and while only a -4 int penalty, it outright cannot speak. At 7th level there are ways around both, but combined are a significant nuisance.

[javcs]

Concur, -0, but not that far from being a weak +0.

It doesn't suck, but for 7RHD, "doesn't suck" isn't enough.