Avengers: Infinity War

[Psyren]

Yes. He was called Thanos, the Mad Titan. Because he was quite literally, mad.

Riveting.

Instead we got Thanos The Blind Idiot Titan. His solution is A) needlessly destructive and B) not in any shape permanent.

a) The collateral damage being irrelevant to Thanos is kind of the whole point.
b) So what? If it's not permanent, he'll just do it again. You don't give up on having a pretty hedge because it needs pruning more than once. Especially when you see yourself as being the universe's only gardener.

Getting rid of all those navel-gazing cosmic superentities that do absolutely bugger-all until comic sales slump was a positive change in my book.

Honestly given how Shuri's tech works it seems one step removed from Strange's magic, so I'd say it's just straight up whatever they call that. Tony's is more general transmutation though.

I mean, they're both using nanotech in their suits now, which is basically magic.
I'd put Tony more on the Evocation and Conjuration side of things myself though.

The heroes don't really have a reason to ''stop Thanos'', other then they are in the movie Infinity War. Only like Gammora, Nebula and Drax have even a slight connection it him. Everyone just kind of does it, mostly the heroes from Earth.

There's more than that: Iron Man and Vision have both seen what Thanos is up to firsthand. Strange is protecting the stone(s) at all costs because he's looking even bigger picture than Thanos. Loki sided with him as part of a long con, and Thanos' punishment of the poor sap got Thor invested. Banner meanwhile has all the proof he needs thanks to Hulk's reaction.

Everyone else is connected to the characters above, so they don't all need to have axes to grind against Thanos specifically.

[Cikomyr]

The difference is that 'I want to bang Death', only had one solution. Death needs some sort of balance to the 'verse, which explicitly involves killing people.
It is the only option on the table, because it is the only acceptable solution.

'Balance resources vs. population' has so many possible solutions, especially when the person deciding, has - theoretically - unlimited power.

Except the Complete Infinity Gauntlet does not has unlimited power. its expressedly shown in the movie.

[Devonix]

Except the Complete Infinity Gauntlet does not has unlimited power. its expressedly shown in the movie.

But what he chose to do with the gauntlet vin no way furthers his goal

[boj0]

Another thing to consider for Thanos having a flawed plan: He's too intelligent or powerful to really prove wrong; he can consistently show off to naysayers by just doing whatever impossible thing they say he can't do. Sure, he could have thought of a million different ideas for fixing the universe; but he didn't have to. He can make his idea the only viable one, and since he has so far been shown to be the only character to have that kind of agency; others can have ideas and wax philosophical, Thanos can make it happen.

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Also, with the full set of Infinity Gems he can: have his plan work everywhere at once (Space), see all possibilities for his plan (Time), process that information and calculate the best way to do it (Mind), know who and what to cull (Soul), rewrite the laws of physics and logic to make it the best plan (Reality), and then have the ability to make it happen (Power). He didn't care if his idea was flawed, he liked his idea and BENT THE FOUNDATION OF EXISTENCE TO MAKE HIMSELF RIGHT.

But thing with Infinity War, and the comics it's based on is that Thanos is the main character, defeating the all-powerful Mad Titan isn't the story; it's how one being's will was so indomitable that nothing could stop him and how he deals with being all powerful. Also, it acts as a character study of what happens when an emotionally immature being is given all this power; as others have said both the comics and movie version of Thanos have very childish goals in mind, whether enacting cosmic nihilism or trying to impress a girl, all of his actions come across like a spoiled teenager. However, this purple man-child acts on a cosmic scale when he throws a temper tantrum, nobody bothers calling Thanos out on the stupidity of his plan, they try to stop him because he will kill them all to prove a point. I believe this is why they tried to humanize him so much in the movie, the problem gets solved by Thanos realizing the error of why he's doing all this, or by realizing that he doesn't deserve this power. I'll put money on it, A4 will fix the problem by either going the comic route and having Nebula get her revenge with the Gauntlet (which I think is likely since they kept her alive), or he'll have a heart to heart with Gamora in the Soul Realm and realize that this wasn't worth it (also possible, since they try to deviate a bit so comics fans can still be surprised). A Marvel movie will be solved by the villain going through character development

But I think we can all agree the best way to end the next movie is having Squirrel Girl beat down Thanos while the Celestials call him a big, fat loser.

[Cikomyr]

But what he chose to do with the gauntlet vin no way furthers his goal

That's not necessarily true.. but in his logic and with the Empirical evidence he has witnessed, it did.

[Legato Endless]

Thanos' original motivation wouldn't have worked in the film with the groundwork laid before in the MCU. Ignoring how silly it would have looked on screen, it's not feasible structurally. Avengers 3 already was balancing a staggering cast, and moving between them was already a juggling act that mostly seems to have worked for people. Death as a character adds a ton of unnecessary complications.

She's a character without any connection to anyone else in the story, so that plays hell with screen time. You've got to not only set up Thanos, but also Death, and their relationship, a whole subplot to a film with a more efficient story that's already nearly 3 hours. Even if Adam Warlock were already established, that's still a triangle of dead space separated from the rest of the cast. Then you've got the oddity of what it means to introduce a more abstract cosmic bit of world building and setting adjustment, and somehow avoiding all the plot incoherence Marvel comics proper invites with such fare.

Thanos' population control motive obviously isn't popular or taken as logical to everyone, and perhaps that should have been reworked, but dramatically, jettisoning Death and simply having Thanos' primary interactions be with Gamora as an already established character with tangible connections to other people was certainly more deft in terms of plotting and impact.

[Malimar]

Has Thanos never heard of Trap-Neuter-Return? What a foolish grape he is.

[Psyren]

Thanos' original motivation wouldn't have worked in the film with the groundwork laid before in the MCU. Ignoring how silly it would have looked on screen, it's not feasible structurally. Avengers 3 already was balancing a staggering cast, and moving between them was already a juggling act that mostly seems to have worked for people. Death as a character adds a ton of unnecessary complications.

She's a character without any connection to anyone else in the story, so that plays hell with screen time. You've got to not only set up Thanos, but also Death, and their relationship, a whole subplot to a film with a more efficient story that's already nearly 3 hours. Even if Adam Warlock were already established, that's still a triangle of dead space separated from the rest of the cast. Then you've got the oddity of what it means to introduce a more abstract cosmic bit of world building and setting adjustment, and somehow avoiding all the plot incoherence Marvel comics proper invites with such fare.

Thanos' population control motive obviously isn't popular or taken as logical to everyone, and perhaps that should have been reworked, but dramatically, jettisoning Death and simply having Thanos' primary interactions be with Gamora as an already established character with tangible connections to other people was certainly more deft in terms of plotting and impact.

I doubt anything can be popular to "everyone." Luckily that's not the standard for success. There will always be naysayers.

As for Adam Warlock, yeah he's been set up (GotG2 stinger.)

[The Glyphstone]

Though the GotG 1 stinger featured Howard The Duck. So Im not quite ready to take any stinger content as 100% truthful.

[Mikeavelli]

I really think they should have kept the death worshipper aspect of it and turned his quest into a holy crusade rather than something that is purely pragmatic, secular, and (il)logical.

The Maw did give a pseudo-religious sermon to the dying Asgardians in the beginning of the film. I think they were planning to take this route with Thanos, and just kinda forgot about it as the film wore on.

[GloatingSwine]

I doubt anything can be popular to "everyone." Luckily that's not the standard for success. There will always be naysayers.

As for Adam Warlock, yeah he's been set up (GotG2 stinger.)

Yeah, but GotG3 isn't going to be until after IW2.

The Marvel movies between this one and part 2 are Ant Man and the Wasp and Captain Marvel, and they both take place before Infinity War.


On Thanos' motivations: You don't have to agree with their logic, you just have to believe that he believes in them. And that much is obvious from the film.

[Bartmanhomer]

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I think Thanos used the Soul Stone which everybody dissolved in the end of the movie.

[Anteros]

I didn't particularly care for the movie. It wasn't awful, but it also wasn't good.

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The villain's motivations are the type of thing a particularly idiotic edgy teenager would come up with. Sure, it wasn't much better in the original comic, but in the comic Thanos was being heavily manipulated by Death and Mephisto the entire time. Plus, the comic took itself a lot less seriously.

The scale of the conflict was incredibly minor. In the source material Thanos' power is quite literally without limit. In this movie he struggles to remove Spider-Man's webbing from his arm. I'm not sure why you're even going to bother using someone like Thanos as a villain if you're going to nerf him so much.

Also, Wakanda is supposed to be this super advanced place, and the Avengers are supposed to be world shatteringly powerful heroes...yet I'm pretty sure one military division from any competent modern army could have made a better showing against Thanos' army. Fate of the world at stake? Better go stab the enemy with spears! It's cool though, they're totally laser spears that can shoot like one projectile per minute! Idiotic. Just another of the many problems with scale in the movie. We're told these people are powerful enough to level planets, but nothing impressive ever actually happens on screen. We only ever see the after effects.

[GloatingSwine]

I didn't particularly care for the movie. It wasn't awful, but it also wasn't good.

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The scale of the conflict was incredibly minor. In the source material Thanos' power is quite literally without limit. In this movie he struggles to remove Spider-Man's webbing from his arm. I'm not sure why you're even going to bother using someone like Thanos as a villain if you're going to nerf him so much.

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In the Infinity Gauntlet story Thanos starts with all six infinity gems, at the point he's fighting on Titan he only has three, and he has to actively do things with them separately.

In all the other stories he shows up in he's nowhere near that powerful. He's a one-on-one fight for someone like Mar-Vell.

[Ramza00]

Well, I liked the movie a lot...and I have been a Thantos fan for years. I do wish we could have gotten more Thantos in the movie, you know, like maybe a couple minutes of MCU backstory. Like put the Titan stuff and Girl Gammora at the start of the movie, and give us a knowledge/reminder. Like have a seen where Thantos and Teen Girl Gammora are fighting some space mooks.....to get to the Infinity Well. Then Thantos learns about the Infinity Gems, and also informs/reminds the audience....and end it with Thantos looking at the camera to say something like ''there is too much life, I will do something about that."

But the movie just seems to assume everyone watching is a hard core fan....

That is the beauty of movie merchandising, you get to sell not just toys but also other things that tie together to create a "world"

Avengers: Infinity War’s big bad Thanos is getting his own origin story
Caveat: you have to read a book
https://www.theverge.com/2018/4/16/1...n-story-marvel

We need not a Zombie Walt Disney, his life force, his essence, his philosophy still exists in House of Mouse company

Look man, I've seen a lot of adults have that same mentality. It doesn't make him 14.

Also, at no point did I not say his plan isn't obviously flawed and stupid. All I'm saying is that it makes sense in character for him to not catch on the fact that there are other, better solutions. It's all an ego trip for him. Same with the dating Death thing in the comics, he is ultimately a person who believed he is unworthy of the actual importance of his goals and self sabotaged in ways he cannot realize because it's on a subconcious level. He cannot see the correct solution to his desires because it's not actually about solving the problem, it's about saying he did and agrandizing himself in the doing so.

Exactly it is all about his gratification, it is all about gratifying himself. I will put Women in Refrigerators Half of the Universe in Refrigerators, for doing so makes me more gratified.

Seriously Thanos is just messed up in the head. This type of mindset was very common in the 1800s and early 1900s (catches himself before he gets too close to history with the forums rules for there were some very specific social movements in historical past but also historical present)

Thinking the world is static, the resources are always limited, and people can't change is nonsense. This is a problem of mindset, the universe is not Malthusian (1798 theory) where will just run out of food and resources, the Haber–Bosch process process (1909) is probably the most important scientific invention in the last 200 years for it allowed the creation of artificial fertilizers which allowed you to increase crop yields by restoring nitrogen depleted soil. Furthermore other things happened that allowed populations to stabilize by having more predictable survival rates and thus people adapted both due to economics and choice to have less kids until most countries are now about the stabilization rate of 2ish to 2.2ish kids.

Why is killing first on the table?

Exactly this is not really about Death, this is not really about Killing. This is Thanos and his inability to deal with things that cause him pain, and his high amount of cognitive empathy, but low amount of emotional empathy, and his messed up theory of mind. Aka it is all about Thanos, it is all about him, but he is convinced he is helping everyone else when in reality he is not.

Gamora his daughter gets it, his other daughter Nebula get it, people who have lived with him pretty much get it (besides the 4 Children of Thanos, henchman) this man is mad and toxic.

Aka Thanos plan is temporary in nature where he will always have to keep on snapping his fingers to create balance. To Thanos (though he has not realized it in his conscious mind) the power of the glove is not the power to wipe out 1/2 of the universe, no that stuff happens naturally and he does not need to get involved for these natural processes to occur.

No the point is euthanasia, to end suffering before suffering occured, except reality does not work this way. Think about it for a second this man is doing a needless genocide, it is like shooting Old Yeller before the dog got Rabies. Thanos is not sympathetic he is NUTS. He took natural human feelings and takes them to Cooko-ville for his actions does not solve the problem nor do they solve the feelings.

I have anger, I have smoldering rage, and I hurt so much Thanos says, so let me fridge 1/2 the universe, and I will have to keep fridging 1/2 the universe for balance will keep on getting out of control.

Thanos does not need an infinity gauntlet he needs Therapy, he is a walking man-child with no respect for personal boundaries.

[Legato Endless]

The Maw did give a pseudo-religious sermon to the dying Asgardians in the beginning of the film. I think they were planning to take this route with Thanos, and just kinda forgot about it as the film wore on.

Naw, the religious angle is just a way to differentiate Maw as one of Thanos' children. He's the herald in love with the sound of his own voice so he gets to spout propaganda to the people they slaughter. Apparently Corvus and Proxima had a footage fleshing them out as a couple but that was cut from the runtime.

I doubt anything can be popular to "everyone." Luckily that's not the standard for success. There will always be naysayers.

As for Adam Warlock, yeah he's been set up (GotG2 stinger.)

I know. I meant more in the sense of not being established in terms of characterization before showing up here, and even if he had, it would have been a fairly clumsy bit of plotting.

[Anteros]

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In the Infinity Gauntlet story Thanos starts with all six infinity gems, at the point he's fighting on Titan he only has three, and he has to actively do things with them separately.

In all the other stories he shows up in he's nowhere near that powerful. He's a one-on-one fight for someone like Mar-Vell.

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Even with just the power stone he should be a world shatterer. He certainly shouldn't be struggling against the likes of Spider-man. Even when he had all 6 in the movie he's significantly nerfed. He's depicted as completely omnipotent in the comic when he has all 6. In the movie Thor almost manages to kill him, and using the gauntlet once destroys it.

[Cheesegear]

Thanos does not need an infinity gauntlet he needs Therapy, he is a walking man-child with no respect for personal boundaries.

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing.

[Tvtyrant]

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing.

...Everyone in the story acts like a 14 year old. From the good ship Stark//Strange being the kid who can't stop mocking people and boasting about themselves to Roger's obsession with his best friend to Scarlett Witch and Vision's teenage relationship. Starlord's crew are basically nothing but obnoxious teenagers.

I think that knocking a series marketed largely at children and teenagers for using arguments and ideologies that are conceptionally teenage in form is a bit silly. Even Civil War was essentially the battle between the teacher's pet and the rebel student, with a bullying but powerless authority figure representing the seemingly obtuse bureacracy that dominates adulthood.

Imagine if the bad guy was ideologically driven and an adult. "At last with the power of the infinity stones I will be able to enforce a uniform 6.8% corporate tax rate, open trade and a singular coinage system across the galaxy! This will maximize production and prevent monetary inflation for 40 years! Tremble before me mortals!"

[Ramza00]

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing.

I was agreeing with you, I am sorry if it was not obvious for you to pick up on. (a little tease and a grin on my face when I say this)



But I was also disagreeing with other people who think Thanos is relatable . I am like [3 syllable expletive] gals and guys, how can you think a guy who thinks genocide is an acceptable response to his emotions, how can that be relatable? I stand in horror with my mouth open.

Note these people I am talking about are not saying the emotions themselves are relatable, no it is further than that. There are some people who if an actual magical macguffin that does what the infinity gauntlet does, well Thanos has a kind of good plan and they would be with Team Thanos.

And all I can think and feel when I hear this stuff in the internet but also when I leave a movie theater is this

Spoiler: Picture Forms of My Thoughts

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Imagine if the bad guy was ideologically driven and an adult. "At last with the power of the infinity stones I will be able to enforce a uniform 6.8% corporate tax rate, open trade and a singular coinage system across the galaxy! This will maximize production and prevent monetary inflation for 40 years! Tremble before me mortals!"

Isn't this effectively a Monty Python Skit?

Many MP skits are taking extreme modernist viewpoints of the world, modernist viewpoints that say there is mostly one way to look at the world one timeline that determines progress and MP plays the devil's advocate and thus express that life is messy, life is kind of like biology with a mixture of many things in a mosaic and thus the modernist viewpoint is silly and you should think more post modernist?

Someone who is more familiar with the fancy terms will probably correct me saying you meant to use word X' instead of X but I think I got the guts of it did I not?

6.8% corporate tax rate, hehe.

[Tvtyrant]

I was agreeing with you, I am sorry if it was not obvious for you to pick up on. (a little tease and a grin on my face when I say this)



But I was also disagreeing with other people who think Thanos is relatable . I am like [3 syllable expletive] gals and guys, how can you think a guy who thinks genocide is an acceptable response to his emotions, how can that be relatable? I stand in horror with my mouth open.

Note these people I am talking about are not saying the emotions themselves are relatable, no it is further than that. There are some people who if an actual magical macguffin that does what the infinity gauntlet does, well Thanos has a kind of good plan and they would be with Team Thanos.

And all I can think and feel when I hear this stuff in the internet but also when I leave a movie theater is this

Spoiler: Picture Forms of My Thoughts

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Isn't this effectively a Monty Python Skit?

Many MP skits are taking extreme modernist viewpoints of the world, modernist viewpoints that say there is mostly one way to look at the world one timeline that determines progress and MP plays the devil's advocate and thus express that life is messy, life is kind of like biology with a mixture of many things in a mosaic and thus the modernist viewpoint is silly and you should think more post modernist?

Someone who is more familiar with the fancy terms will probably correct me saying you meant to use word X' instead of X but I think I got the guts of it did I not?

6.8% corporate tax rate, hehe.

That is a reasonable way of expressing my point. The changes that a versed adult would make are systemic and not something that you can enforce through a magic wishing glove. Thanos needs to be childlike to be a credible threat.

Also that the target audience substantially includes children and teenagers who would not appreciate a Star Trek style argument over interstellar politics.

[Anteros]

That is a reasonable way of expressing my point. The changes that a versed adult would make are systemic and not something that you can enforce through a magic wishing glove. Thanos needs to be childlike to be a credible threat.

Also that the target audience substantially includes children and teenagers who would not appreciate a Star Trek style argument over interstellar politics.

Not really though. You're acting like there's no middle ground between your overly complicated example and the complete idiocy of what we actually got. It's perfectly possible to have a villain with a believable plan that makes sense. Books and movies do it all the time.

[Tvtyrant]

Not really though. You're acting like there's no middle ground between your overly complicated example and the complete idiocy of what we actually got. It's perfectly possible to have a villain with a believable plan that makes sense. Books and movies do it all the time.

Involving infinite power? Give me some examples.

Most evil people are snidely whiplash at best, their success would be rapey and involve universal mind control. Hella, Hydra/Red Skull, Ronin, Loki, name any bad guy in the universe who got the infinity gauntlet anf the plot ends.

Thanos offers a unique position where he can succeed without the franchise ending and still be evil. He is also no more childish then the majority of other bad guys or heroes in their universe.

[LaZodiac]

The Maw did give a pseudo-religious sermon to the dying Asgardians in the beginning of the film. I think they were planning to take this route with Thanos, and just kinda forgot about it as the film wore on.

Right I forgot to actually post this post.

Yeah that's just Ebony Maw's thing. I imagine the others make fun of him behind his back.

[Kitten Champion]

That is a reasonable way of expressing my point. The changes that a versed adult would make are systemic and not something that you can enforce through a magic wishing glove. Thanos needs to be childlike to be a credible threat.

Also that the target audience substantially includes children and teenagers who would not appreciate a Star Trek style argument over interstellar politics.

Also, mythologies are composed of immature, emotion-driven characters. Where simple and straightforward feelings are the spark for the drama that usually ends up with oodles of mortals dead and the lamentable conclusions of Heroes.

Not, ya'know, reasonable people with differences of opinion.

[Cikomyr]

In which case you've confirmed what I've been saying.
He's a 14 year-old with too much power. Stellar villain writing.

Comic books are originally meant for kids and ways will have a simplicity of heart for it. And that is fine; it does not make the stories bad.

[Ramza00]

Thanos offers a unique position where he can succeed without the franchise ending and still be evil. He is also no more childish then the majority of other bad guys or heroes in their universe.

Agreed Thanos is more child like yet more powerful than most MCU villians. Well most may not be the right term, crosses out most MCU villians, but lets say 30 to 50% of the villians in a MCU movie are far more cognitively, emotionally, and theory of mind at a higher level than Thanos. Aka Thanos is a man child with a titan's body and massive power. 30 to 50% of the MCU villians actually feel like they are adults even if they are evil.

Yet somehow Thanos is getting all this press / fan commentary recently that this is a MCU villian 1) they can relate to and 2) he is not forgettable, 3) no he is very understandable as well as memorable. I do not understand this...maybe the problem is me, it very well could be.

[Malimar]

Not, ya'know, reasonable people with differences of opinion.

The funny thing to me about this debate is that earlier in the MCU they did make a pretty compelling move out of mostly reasonable people with differences of opinion; they called it Civil War. So the "immature characters is just a feature of the art form" argument doesn't really entirely hold water.

[Tvtyrant]

Agreed Thanos is more child like yet more powerful than most MCU villians. Well most may not be the right term, crosses out most MCU villians, but lets say 30 to 50% of the villians in a MCU movie are far more cognitively, emotionally, and theory of mind at a higher level than Thanos. Aka Thanos is a man child with a titan's body and massive power. 30 to 50% of the MCU villians actually feel like they are adults even if they are evil.

Yet somehow Thanos is getting all this press / fan commentary recently that this is a MCU villian 1) they can relate to and 2) he is not forgettable, 3) no he is very understandable as well as memorable. I do not understand this...maybe the problem is me, it very well could be.

So I argued above that Thanos is marketed to children and teenagers, who have difficulty understanding adult characters.

Here you are claiming not to understand the popularity of a figure who people rank above other villains in the setting.

Very compactly: The MCU is aimed at children and teenagers. Thanos is aimed at and successful with his target audience. Like Voldemort, expecting Thanos to act like an adult is missing the point of the character. Thanos offers a comprehensible and credible threat for teenagers and children.

Attempts to make him smarter and more adult would make him less popular among his target audience. If they would make him more popular with you, you are not his target audience.

[Psyren]

Though the GotG 1 stinger featured Howard The Duck. So Im not quite ready to take any stinger content as 100% truthful.

I think it's pretty easy to spot the "humor stingers" (A1, GotG1, Homecoming) vs. the "this will be important later" stingers. A giant egg/pod is important, because eggs hatch/pods open eventually - Chekov's Gun writ large.

Yeah, but GotG3 isn't going to be until after IW2.

The Marvel movies between this one and part 2 are Ant Man and the Wasp and Captain Marvel, and they both take place before Infinity War.

Oh I'm not saying Warlock will be important for concluding IW specifically. Just that he's definitely a thing in the MCU, and he's pretty tied up in the mythology of the stones (almost as much as Thanos himself.) I do agree he needs more setup before actually becoming a player, but the seed is there.

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I think Thanos used the Soul Stone which everybody dissolved in the end of the movie.

In the comics,

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the soul gem stores everyone it "kills" within itself, in a pocket dimension. If they carry that through to the MCU soul stone, That could very well be where everybody poofed to post-snap, and be the key to bringing some or all of them back.

But I was also disagreeing with other people who think Thanos is relatable . I am like [3 syllable expletive] gals and guys, how can you think a guy who thinks genocide is an acceptable response to his emotions, how can that be relatable? I stand in horror with my mouth open.

You are confusing understanding Thanos with relating to Thanos. The former simply requires that I know what he's trying to accomplish, not that I agree with it in the slightest. What Thanos is after is not even all that esoteric a concept, it's just barbaric (and dubious) when applied to sapient life. He obviously doesn't care, but that doesn't make him unfathomable, just an adversary to be stopped.