Warhammer 40K Fluff Discussion XV: You Must Be THIS Tall To Witness The Grimdark

[Cheesegear]

Let's Read: Imperium Nihilus: Vigilus Defiant
The War of Beasts

Last time GW blew up Cadia, immediately ran out of story ideas, and now has to write the exact same story that they already did and they're hoping that people wont notice. Vigilus is a planet that serves as both a beachhead and blockade against the forces of Chaos, which guards what is essentially a bottlenecked Warp portal into- You know what? It's Cadia...Again.

Water

• For some reason, GW thought it necessary to point out that different classes of citizens on Vigilus drink different waters with massively different qualities. Primarily due to how the planet has a water shortage...So people take water where they can get it. If GW is cool, they'll be a militia in Vigilus' deserts wearing Stillsuits and...I don't think GW is that cool. But, ideally, water shortages and water quality is a major sticking point for certain Cults on the planet...Who are being influenced by Genestealers, maybe? Chekov's Gun? Or pointless waste of page space? We'll find out.

The Planet

• Let's talk geography. Vigilus is a planet that's mostly desert. Cool...Now spend half a page describing a desert. Cool. You've described a desert. More pointless waste of page space.
• The planet was once ruled by a PG? ...Who cares? It's ruled by the Council of Cogs. You've already said.
• So, Vigilus' major export is AdMech...Stuff. However, due to it's current proximity to Mordian, it's currently serving as a vital stop-off for major Imperial forces...The narrative name-drops Space Wolves...But then says 'Skitarii Legions'...I don't know why it didn't specify which Skitarii Legions. Maybe it's because lots of people are furries, and nobody is a robosexual. So clearly only Space Wolves matter. Seems to fit GW's pattern. If you don't mention Space Wolves...A whole bunch of people just check out.
• Vigilus makes Psy-Shields...And doesn't give them to anyone else. Hey ****heads. Remember Cadia!? You can't have Cadia just burn to the crust, and then the next planet over has the exact thing that could've saved it!? Holy ****. That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while. Oh right. I forgot. Remember how Cadia had Pylons? I guess this planet has them too. They're just not called 'Pylons'. You got it, GW. We definitely wont notice that you're just writing the same story, again. What is this? The Force Awakens?
• Turns out, that the planet is royally ****ed due to the Adeptus Mechanicus, and more specifically, the Hive/Forge City of Megaborealis. Which apparently mined so much, that they've managed to cause earthquakes across the entire planet. All in search of a 'strange black mineral'...How 'bout you name it immediately, and then tell us what it's for? ...Nope. Guess not.
• The Ministorum is there, too. 'Cause why not? ...Wait. Hang on. This is a Forge World...You know...The kind of planet where the Omnissiah rules. I guess maybe a thing happens, where a whole bunch of the underclass start making makeshift effigies and worshipping other entities in secret.
• Nope. The Ministorum is real, and it indoctrinates the Vigilant Guard, who are best friends with the Sororitas. We'll just ignore the whole 'Men Under Arms' thing. It's only a technicality, right? Or is this planet just full of Renegades who do whatever they want? Or maybe, just maybe...It's a horribly written story designed to have everyone involved so nobody feels left out (except T'au and Necrons, 'cause **** 'em), and thus makes it a cluster**** of nonsense that has no basis in...Anything.
• Because the cluster****, the planet has been on the verge of civil war multiple times...But that would be interesting, and involve Imperium vs. Imperium. We can't have that. Fortunately, the planet has been brought back from the brink due to the Aquilarian Council.
• Then The Great Rift happened, and now the planet has to collectively get their **** together.

Stupid Dumb Chronology

• Because making hard timelines with consistent events and a progressive story is hard. GW has opted to introduce us to a new time format. Hold on. No. This line is gold...
• "[The Great Rift] was an event of such incredible magnitude it rewired the planet's temporal logic altogether..." I can't even begin to- Nope. The sentence speaks for itself.
• So, hard reset the timeline. Dates are now measured from when the Cicatrix Maledictum opened. So far, so good.
• One Terran day isn't a 'day' anymore. It's three 'chronosegments' of 8 hours each. This is...Incredibly dumb. Because if you're counting, that means that a year is now 1095 chronosegments long, and I can't wait for GW to balls it up completely. A 'day' in the year is too hard to remember. We have to grind it down right down to the specific set of 8 hours that an event happened during. A week is seven days long? Nope. It's 21 chronosegments. 13 Hours? Try 1.625 Chronosegments. Rolls right off the tongue. I certainly hope that this is one of those stupid dumb things that GW mentions exactly once, and then never brings it up ever again...Hey GW...If you don't mention that it's the 42nd Millienium, why are you calling it Warhammer 40,000? ...Oh no. Oh please no.
• Also dumb, is that the timeline now specifies what planet an event happens on. So, not only is time measured in CM and PCM (previo; but GW is too dumb to abbreviate it immediately). But you also slam the planet's designator onto it. So it becomes VCM...'V' for Vigilius...HUH!? What happens when you have multiple planets starting with V? Do you just keep adding letters? No. OPCM is a bad example, because it's a planet with two words to its name (Omis-Prion). What's the designation for...Say...Valhalla? Vostroya? I really don't think that GW thought this through.
• So, the final example they give, is '1.1 post VCM.M41'. Holy ****. I can't even...'285(?).000.M41' too hard. Got it. My stupid brain doesn't understand how years work.
• "The Great Rift happened approximately at the beginning of the year 41,000." ...I can see how people would find that too hard to remember. It's not like it's a round number or anything.

Post VCM

• Everyone wants Vigilus 'cause it's the beachhead/blockade to the Nachmund Gauntlet.
• Turns out that there's an active webway portal on the south polar region. Why not!? Nope. Huge AdMech presence on the planet whose whole schtick is to look for xeno technology. Nope. You got GW. Undetectable webway portal. With which you can introduce Aeldari from straight away. Yeah, Craftworld Ulthwé is currently battling Thousand Sons at Mordian. That's fine. But, I have access to the same internet that GW fluff-writers would...Let's see what I can find...Craftworld Yme-Loc. They're canon. They're around Obscurus. Why not? Oh, right. Not cool enough. Whatever. Having a Webway Gate lets you have any Craftworld you want show up...Yeah. That's why you've done it.
• A whole bunch of the underclass starts getting curfews, or they get 'flogged for a full hour'. I've seen Outlander. The person doing the flogging gets tired in like, 10 minutes. And the person getting flogged doesn't last that long. Whatever. That punishment is brutal and pretty likely to kill you. So...I guess that makes it a harsh punishment, eh? ...This directly leads to underground activity. Uprisings and assassinations scourge the upper spires.

The Other End

• On the Imperium Sanctus side of the Gauntlet, is a Knight World.
• King Kaliguius, being at the other blockade/beachhead, is sick of Chaos and Xeno ships coming pretty much directly at his planet, and he's sick of Imperial ships using his planet as a safe haven. Knight Worlds doesn't operate that way. Too bad, kid. You're in the toilet. This is your life, now.
• He flips out, and gets himself declared Excommunicate Traitorous for not playing ball and for being a huge a-hole. So that's fun. Vigilus on one end. Dharrovar on the other, now a Renegade Knight World. Wouldn't declaring him Excommunicate like...Directly put him on your enemies' side? Like, on a planet with massive strategic importance to both sides? Who cares? IDIOT BALL. CATCH!

...So dumb.

[Wraith]

Stupid Dumb Chronology

• Because making hard timelines with consistent events and a progressive story is hard. GW has opted to introduce us to a new time format. Hold on. No. This line is gold...
• "[The Great Rift] was an event of such incredible magnitude it rewired the planet's temporal logic altogether..." I can't even begin to- Nope. The sentence speaks for itself.
• So, hard reset the timeline. Dates are now measured from when the Cicatrix Maledictum opened. So far, so good.
• One Terran day isn't a 'day' anymore. It's three 'chronosegments' of 8 hours each. This is...Incredibly dumb. Because if you're counting, that means that a year is now 1095 chronosegments long, and I can't wait for GW to balls it up completely. A 'day' in the year is too hard to remember. We have to grind it down right down to the specific set of 8 hours that an event happened during. A week is seven days long? Nope. It's 21 chronosegments. 13 Hours? Try 1.625 Chronosegments. Rolls right off the tongue. I certainly hope that this is one of those stupid dumb things that GW mentions exactly once, and then never brings it up ever again...Hey GW...If you don't mention that it's the 42nd Millienium, why are you calling it Warhammer 40,000? ...Oh no. Oh please no.
• Also dumb, is that the timeline now specifies what planet an event happens on. So, not only is time measured in CM and PCM (previo; but GW is too dumb to abbreviate it immediately). But you also slam the planet's designator onto it. So it becomes VCM...'V' for Vigilius...HUH!? What happens when you have multiple planets starting with V? Do you just keep adding letters? No. OPCM is a bad example, because it's a planet with two words to its name (Omis-Prion). What's the designation for...Say...Valhalla? Vostroya? I really don't think that GW thought this through.
• So, the final example they give, is '1.1 post VCM.M41'. Holy ****. I can't even...'285(?).000.M41' too hard. Got it. My stupid brain doesn't understand how years work.
• "The Great Rift happened approximately at the beginning of the year 41,000." ...I can see how people would find that too hard to remember. It's not like it's a round number or anything.

"After the formation of the Great Rift in the ending stages of the 41st Millennium, the flow of time no longer became standard across the galaxy. As a result, Roboute Guilliman attempted to amend the dating system and create a reliable Imperial history to fit the new situation. The result has been met with controversy and a civil war known as the Chronostrife has broken out within the Inquisition's Ordo Chronos."

Nice job breaking it, Mr."Greatest Bureaucratic Administrator in the Entire Imperium".

He flips out, and gets himself declared Excommunicate Traitorous for not playing ball and for being a huge a-hole. So that's fun. Vigilus on one end. Dharrovar on the other, now a Renegade Knight World. Wouldn't declaring him Excommunicate like...Directly put him on your enemies' side? Like, on a planet with massive strategic importance to both sides? Who cares? IDIOT BALL. CATCH!

Declaring him Excommunicate is the absolute right decision - you can't have some rebellious jerk pitching a fit and causing trouble and let him get away with it indefinitely, just because he's in a conveniently important strategic position.

Declaring him Excommunicate and then not doing anything else about it, such as removing him from power and installing someone loyal in his place... THAT is the big mistake regardless of whether he just goes renegade or genuine traitor.

[lord_khaine]

I don't think that the Imperium has ever done it, as A) they don't have the technology to do so and B) even they aren't quite so flippant with the lives of their Psykers.

Cough*dailymealofathousandpsykers*cough

After the Long Night, he decided to prioritise unification rather than sit on Terra and tech-rush. Which was probably a good idea, since otherwise Chaos Cults would have had all the time to build their empires up.

You mean instead of having him do their work for them? :P

[Forum Explorer]

Cough*dailymealofathousandpsykers*cough

That's a good point, even if it's not the one you thought you were making. The Imperium needs a steady supply of psykers to keep the Emperor and thus the Astronomicon running. The Orks don't need their psykers at all. Not even to travel through the warp. So their psykers are useful, but ultimately completely expendable.

[lord_khaine]

That's a good point, even if it's not the one you thought you were making. The Imperium needs a steady supply of psykers to keep the Emperor and thus the Astronomicon running. The Orks don't need their psykers at all. Not even to travel through the warp. So their psykers are useful, but ultimately completely expendable.

Well the point is that the Imperium actively sends their psykers to certain dead.
So they are not really in position to blame anyone else for making psykers do risky stuff.

[The Glyphstone]

The psykers fed to the throne are the ones too weak to be anything other than fuel. Its not a random lot, its a culling of the lowest X%. So they arent wasting a resource that could be put to better use.

[hamishspence]

The psykers fed to the throne are the ones too weak to be anything other than fuel. Its not a random lot, its a culling of the lowest X%.

"Too lacking in will, to protect themselves from daemonic/Enslaver possession" is probably also a factor.


It isn't just power, it's dangerousness, that causes the Imperium to write off most of its psyker levy.

[deuterio12]

"Too lacking in will, to protect themselves from daemonic/Enslaver possession" is probably also a factor.


It isn't just power, it's dangerousness, that causes the Imperium to write off most of its psyker levy.

That's straight out false because all the time the emprah was running his great crusade he was perfectly fine letting said psyker levy live until he suddenly needed daily sacrifices to power up his new shiny golden toilet.

If there was any sigificant risk before then the black ships would've been operating from the start, but instead they were only put into action when the emprah decided that he would also like a nice serving of souls for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

[LansXero]

That's straight out false because all the time the emprah was running his great crusade he was perfectly fine letting said psyker levy live until he suddenly needed daily sacrifices to power up his new shiny golden toilet.

If there was any sigificant risk before then the black ships would've been operating from the start, but instead they were only put into action when the emprah decided that he would also like a nice serving of souls for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

That was to keep the gate in Terra closed, not because he chose to. Also, the warp has become much more agitated since.

[Avaris]

“The flow of time was no longer standard across the galaxy”

Thats... actually a really good and cool solution to one of the biggest problems in 40k, namely how are all these major characters at opposite ends of the galaxy at roughly the same time. Answer: time is messed up. I can absolutely get behind this.

[Cheesegear]

Thats... actually a really bad and lazy solution to one of the biggest problems in 40k, namely how are all these major characters at opposite ends of the galaxy at roughly the same time. Answer: GW can't be arsed to fact-check their own stuff so handwaved their way out of actually having to work.

Fixed that for you.
Except also, it's wrong. As far as I'm concerned, it's not a solution, unless it's specifically addressed. Which it hasn't been. Show me Marneus Calgar in two different places at once, and then explicitly, within the narrative, explain how time doesn't work right, and that's why there are two Calgar at the same time.

Except that's exactly not what's happening. Because time is still being measured. That's Guilliman's whole...Thing. Localised days and years don't work right anymore, because CM almost definitely ruined planetary orbits and rotations. Thus...Measuring everything according to Terran hours and years, regardless of where you are. It completely obliterates localised time values. But it keeps everything going with Terra...Which it already was, because 285.999.M41 is 100% based off of Terran reckoning.

Because everyone knows that the Great Rift opened late-999, early-000.M41. So, if you're measuring in Terran time (i.e; In Terran years and hours). Then nothing has changed. We know when the Rift opened, which means that there definitely is a timeline. However, the only thing that's changes is that a) It's more complicated that the old system for no reason, and b) Guilliman decided that CM is the new 'Year 0'...Except we also know it to be 999-000.M41.

So, in actual fact...GW hasn't changed anything. As far as I know, GW actually took physics. A frozen planet with a huge orbit in some random System has totally different 'days' and 'years' to Terra. So it makes no sense for their local calendar to be based off of the Terran system.

Hence Guilliman creating a new 'Year 0', and forcing everyone to conform to Terran hours. It works for every planet in the Galaxy.

[Avaris]

I knew you’d disagree :p

Thing is, trying to apply logic to the 40k universe is always going to be difficult. If the quote from Dark Imperium is correct, that time is no longer standard, it’s a great way of showing how messed up everything is. With the opening of the great rift the entire galaxy is essentially in a warp storm, there is no way that even the great administrator can apply logic and order there.

What GW is aiming for is a setting where they don’t need to care about this sort of stuff, because it doesn’t matter. They want to be able to create fun vignettes for people to play games in, and then move on. The consistent narratives they want are those of their major characters, who they want to have appear wherever the game focuses, because they want people to buy/use the models.

The 41st millennium has always fallen over when you consider scales of time and distance. I’m far happier with GW deciding to avoid tying themselves up in knots seeking consistency which was never possible in the first place in favour of a universe of constant war that any story players or writers want to tell can exist in. It’s the same sort of thing Age of Sigmar attempted to fix when compared to Warhammer Fantasy: by pinning too much down, they lost freedom to create.

By way of comparison, consider how Magic has each story taking place on a different plane largely unconnected from each other, where a story can be self contained. GW isn’t there yet, but I think that’s what they’re aiming for, and I can get behind that.

[Cheesegear]

Thing is, trying to apply logic to the 40k universe is always going to be difficult.

No it isn't. Only certain things have can no sense, because that's how it works.

For example; Once upon a time, Orks could fire guns that didn't have triggers, and red-painted Vehicles would just go faster.
That made no sense. It had no internal logic. Because it essentially meant that Orks were borderline omnipotent. So it went away.

Once upon a time, the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines was half-Eldar. You wont find that on Lexicanum, 'cause it's ****in' dumb, and was removed from the setting. But why couldn't an Ultramarine Librarian be half-Eldar? ...Because that monstrosity, in Ultramar, is being murdered in its sleep when it's two years old. Along with at least one parent, and probably even both.

40K has logic. There are rules that 40K has. The Warp isn't a real thing exists. But, it's pretty much canon that you can't go into it without a Gellar Field, and even Chaos ships need Sorcerers and/or Navigators whilst within the Warp, or even they're dead, too.

40K has logic. The Warp is 2D. You can go up and down, you can go forwards and backwards. But you can't go left or right. Like having a Y and Z-axis, with no X-axis. That doesn't make any sense. But by way of stories, and reinforcing the same story, over and over again, we can accept that the Warp is 2D, and has 'tunnels'...Even though it is technically infinite space. Couldn't you just go through the warp storms anyway? ...You could. But GW writes it so that you don't.

If the quote from Dark Imperium is correct, that time is no longer standard

Vigilus is telling us that time is now measured in Terran years and hours, on every planet in Imperium Nihilus.

Which means either;
a) The quote in Dark Imperium is wrong, and thus was immediately retconned (e.g; All Primarchs are Psykers...GTFO), or
b) GW doesn't know what they're doing, and is trying to convince us between mouthfuls of cake, that there never even was cake on the plate.

It's almost as infuriating as Glyphstone saying "Everything is canon, not everything is correct." (yes, I know he's a mod).

While that technically might be true, it does two things;
a) It allows GW to get away with writing conflicting canon, by
b) It allows them to be extremely lazy.

This is why Bethesda got in trouble for having signs of the Brotherhood of Steel in West Virginia in Fallout '76. Especially since Bethesda actually makes a big deal out of fact-checking their own sources. I think it was an Elder Scrolls dev, but they said that a certain storyline wouldn't have been possible, or written as well as it was, without the aid of the community wiki. Because Bethesda made a big deal about their canon, and how much they cared about it. ...Which was pissed away in '76...Although a lot of things were pissed away in '76, not just its narrative veracity.

This is what made blowing up The Old World so good, and resetting with The Mortal Reams, in Age of Sigmar. GW was shackled to a narrative that they didn't like (and/or couldn't copyright properly) so they blew the whole thing up and started from scratch. Here's the kicker, though. Two years in, The Mortal Reams has rules, too. It has its own internal logic now.

The in-Universe joke is the Ordo Chronus. Fluff inconsistencies based on timelines just aren't supposed to happen anymore. GW is fact-checking...Or at least they were. There were inconsistencies for other reasons (e.g; Why are Cadians in the Damocles Gulf, and not guarding the Cadian Gate, when War Zone: Voltoris already said that it was Catachans in the Damocles Gulf, which would make sense, because Catachans are in the Ultima Segmentum, with the White Scars...Don't even get me started on Raven Guard being in the Damocles Gulf...), but not inconsistencies based on time...

My assumption was that by shackling themselves to '40K', they had to keep everything in the 41st Millienium, which means that they backloaded everything into 990-999.M41.

By unhitching themselves from the 41st Millenimum, and progressing the timeline. Hell, this should be easy. You have a new 'Year 0', and starting from scratch, means that you, the business that owns the product, can start your timeline fresh. You'll never have an inconsistency ever again. With a new document, from scratch, you can detail everything from here on out. Everything previously is a crap-shoot. But the great thing about a soft reboot, is that you don't go backwards, because what's the point?

No wait. That's what Age of Sigmar does. That would be smart.
Scratch that.

it’s a great way of showing how messed up everything is.

But it hasn't shown anything. It's only told...And GW can tell us anything. "All Primarchs are Psykers."

But the important thing, is that whatever inconsistencies get written in future stories, it wont be because GW did it on purpose.
It'll be because GW is lazy, and when people call them out on their BS, they'll either say...

"We don't have to try, because we wrote a quote one time about how time works differently so that means we can do whatever we want, and it doesn't even need to make internal logic."

See, there's a story called the Grey Knights trilogy, in which a Grey Knight gets shackled with a Collar of Khorne, which shuts down all his Wards and allows him to be possessed. This is important logic, because Grey Knights can't be possessed, because they have Wards to prevent that exact thing from happening. However...Collars of Khorne also do a thing.

Grey Knights faith and resolve is so strong, that they can banish a Daemon just by standing around and yelling real loud. That's what The Aegis is.

Cut to Matt Ward writing that Grey Knights had to slaughter almost an entire convent of Sororitas because they didn't know how to banish Daemons.

Now. You can see what Matt Ward was doing. He was showing us that Grey Knights will do whatever it takes to banish a Daemon. Including killing an entire convent and making ammo out of their blood.

Except Grey Knights wouldn't do that. Not only do Grey Knights not banish Daemons that way, but they also have strong ammo because they've literally trained themselves to put brain magic into it. "But that could explain how Psybolt Ammo is made."
No. It doesn't. We already know how Psybolt Ammo is made, and it's made by a Grey Knights psychically imprinting on the bullet when its being forged.

There is still logic.

What GW is aiming for is a setting where they don’t need to care about this sort of stuff, because they're bad writers.

Fixed that for you.

The consistent narratives they want are those of their major characters, who they want to have appear wherever the game focuses, because they want people to buy/use the models.

Sacrificing narrative integrity for currency. Cool. Umm...That hasn't worked out so great for a lot of things.

Are you saying that GW can only write stories in Imperium Nihilus? But, if they write stories that take place in Imperium Sanctus, they'll conform to a strict timeline?

The 41st millennium has always fallen over when you consider scales of time and distance.

No it hasn't. That's why they have the Warp.

Even then, you're already years too late to the party. GW said one time that it's possible to enter the Warp and exit before you left. I can't recall a single canon instance of that happening...Ever. But they already said it ages ago. ...This is one of those times where GW says a thing...But then never, ever brings it up again and hopes that people will just forget about it.

I’m far happier with GW deciding to avoid tying themselves up in knots seeking consistency

I'm not happy paying actual money for fanfiction-tier writing from a professional company.

If you're getting all of your information from Lexicanum and 1d4chan...Then there's no problem. Let's all laugh at GW botching their own fluff. Isn't that hilarious. Once you become a paying consumer, you expect better. Especially at the prices that GW charges.

However, if you're happy with it, then you do you. I'm not happy with it. And some people will agree with me. Some people wont.

I'm happy for GW to have inconsistencies on purpose. That's a huge narrative device for extremely compelling time-travel plots. Argel Tal is responsible for everything.
I'm not happy for GW to have inconsistencies because they're lazy and/or don't care.

It’s the same sort of thing Age of Sigmar attempted to fix when compared to Warhammer Fantasy: by pinning too much down, they lost freedom to create.

Which happens when anything gets too big. The more you flesh out, the less freedom you have.

If GW didn't flesh anything out, there'd be no problem.
However GW also specifically pointed out that time is now measured in Terran years and hours, and local times no longer matter.

What Guilliman essentially did, is set every clock in the world to GMT time.
But what about timezones and how daylight works in relation to the rotation of the Earth? Wont that cause problems depending on where you are? What about Daylight Savings Time?
Don't care. You're on GMT time, now.

GW said that time works differently. GW then standardised time.

Which is it? 'Cause it's not both.

By way of comparison, consider how Magic has each story taking place on a different plane largely unconnected

I have no idea where you got that from. The Planes definitely are connected, with stories often taking place across multiple Planes. Exactly like Age of Sigmar does.

[LeSwordfish]

Im not reading that whole post because it, in itself, is longer than any consideration GW have given to it.

[Avaris]

Sorry, I don't have the energy to reply to your whole post: you make some good points, but I don't think we're ever going to agree. I see the lore as a background for my own stories, rather than as something to be held to be sacrosanct. I don't look to it for consistent detail, I look to it for fun ideas as jumping off points for the things I do in my own hobby. I'm interested in the broad strokes narrative, but I'm quite content to not look behind the curtain too much. It doesn't need to make sense if it's fun!

To clarify one thing though:

I have no idea where you got that from. The Planes definitely are connected, with stories often taking place across multiple Planes. Exactly like Age of Sigmar does.

In modern Magic, the planes generally aren't connected for the everyday character; aside from for planeswalkers, each exists in isolation. So a story might run across multiple planes and have implications for them, but for the most part aside from dramatic events (such as those atm admittedly) there won't be ramifications for one plane from events on another. A war on Theros does not matter for Kaladesh.

I see the current GW narrative (or at least my desires for it) in the same vein. Planets/battlefronts are the planes of Magic: for the most part, events in one don't matter for the others. Then you have special named characters, the equivalent of MtG's Planeswalkers, who appear across different wars to give that link. And then, finally, you might have an overarching plotline, such as a Black Crusade, which would be the equivalent of something like the Bolas arc MtG has atm.

So the narrative details of one world don't matter for those elsewhere. They're selected to support the story that is told in that time and place. Yes, there will be inconsistencies, but I don't see them as anything like as important as delivery of a good quality battlezone or whatever.

[9mm]

GW said that time works differently. GW then standardised time.

Which is it? 'Cause it's not both.

sure it can. Just because Girlyman changed the numbers doesn't mean relativity magically disappeared.

[Cheesegear]

It doesn't need to make sense if it's fun!

You know it's possible for something to be well-written and fun, right?
Is it too much to ask for that the things I pay for, have some sort of quality control?

In modern Magic, the planes generally aren't connected for the everyday character; aside from for planeswalkers...

...Who are the only characters that matter.
If they're not Planeswalkers (e.g; Gerard Capashen and the crew of The Weatherlight), guess what, their actions still have Plane-shattering consequences. The Weatherlight didn't just have Plane-shattering consequences, The Weatherlight Saga changed how M:tG told stories from then on.

Phyrexia broke Mirrodin - save the Golem, Save the Plane.

Eventually, even Jaya Ballard got her own Spark. Because if they're not Planeswalkers...You can't continuously use them for every story if the audience likes them more than not-at-all. Then again, Jaya Ballard was originally written pre-Weatherlight Saga. Post-Weatherlight, everyone gets a Spark. Hell, Jaya's even totally-definitely-not jointed The Gatewatch...Who are also even flying around in a ship also called Weatherlight. Just...Yeah.
...That said, I'm convinced the reason that they brought Jaya back from the dead, is because Chandra Nalaar sucks and the audience hates her.

I see the current GW narrative (or at least my desires for it) in the same vein. Planets/battlefronts are the planes of Magic: for the most part, events in one don't matter for the others.

Except that's all that matters. The world of Vigilus is a defining point for Imperium Nihilus. Tigurius says, within the narrative, that if Vigilus falls, the entire Imeprium falls. Now, while I don't believe that for a second. Tigurius does.

When Cadian Gate broke, the entire Imperium felt its impact.

This is why Farseers said that every Eldar would be in trouble if Tyranids were allowed to do the thing on Valedor.

If the Cryptus System isn't saved, then Baal is dead.

Games Workshop always makes it so that every planet they ever write about has 'strategic importance'. Otherwise, nobody will give a ****.

This is why GW wont write about a Vigilus Civil War. Because an event that only effects Vigilus, can't be sold to everyone. This is...Arguably...Why nobody cared about Valedor. It was Eldar and Tyranids. Who else? Nobody... Oh.

So the narrative details of one world don't matter for those elsewhere.

If they don't, no-one will read it.
GW doesn't write stories that way - and still wont.

Dark Imperium is part of the Plague War.

Yes, there will be inconsistencies, but I don't see them as anything like as important as delivery of a good quality battlezone or whatever.

Again. I don't understand why a publicly traded company like GW can't write a quality battlezone, without inconsistencies.

[Forum Explorer]

I actually like the idea that time is broken, though GW will likely fail to use it. But then you could have stuff like Abbadon has been fighting on Vigilus for 80 days, while Guilliman spends years fighting the Plague War elsewhere. How does it work? Well time is moving a lot slower on Vigilus at the moment. Or to do the reverse. Guilliman's calendar thing is just stupid though.

I'd much rather they didn't rehash Cadia though. I think it'd be much more interesting if they put the pressure on the other side. Like Abbadon has to crush Vigilus, partially because it's in the way, but mostly because if he doesn't it's liable to become a second Cadia, and his army will splinter. There's all these super vulnerable worlds his allies would rather be raiding/conquering, and the Daemon Primarchs are calling their own Legions to their side. Abbadon needs a big win to keep everyone rallied behind him, or else they'll just wander off to plunder while the plunder is good.

But if the Imperium loses Vigilus? Well it'll hurt, but they can prop up another system on their side of the gate to play Neo Cadia, and they can still get to the Imperium Nihilus through a different corridor, if a longer route.

Sadly, though, that doesn't seem to be the route GW is taking. Though I've long concluded that I'm a better writer than some of the GW writers. Not all of them, but certainly better then some of people writing things like the Tyranids invading Baal.

[Cheesegear]

I actually like the idea that time is broken, though GW will likely fail to use it.

No, no, no. My fear is that GW will use it, inconsistently and poorly, and use 'Time is broken' to deflect any and all criticism and then allow you, the audience, to 'decide for yourself'.

But then you could have stuff like Abbadon has been fighting on Vigilus for 80 days, while Guilliman spends years fighting the Plague War elsewhere. How does it work?

I feel like that works anyway, because Abaddon and the Black Legion is on Vigilus, whilst Gulliman is fighting the Death Guard in Ultramar. They're whole Segmentums away involving totally different characters and Factions. You don't need to mess with time. They're already not interacting. Internal logic can be maintained without resorting to poor writing.

Guilliman's calendar thing is just stupid though.

It is, and it isn't. It's only stupid if GW never uses it again (which I don't think they will, 'cause it's stupid).

I wholeheartedly support GW moving to a 'Year 0' and progressing the timeline from there. But they wont progress the timeline. They'll load everything into the same 100 years, and quote 'time dilation effects' every time they can't figure out what to do. It will be a crutch to prop up bad/lazy writing, not a narrative device to tell stories with.

For example; War Zone: Damocles specifically says that there are 8 Space Marine Chapters fighting in the Gulf. Specifically name-drops two; Raven Guard () and White Scars. The other six, while not relevant to the story, are not named, allowing you to do whatever you want...However, whatever you did in your own headcanon, you'd still be limited to only six more Chapters. You can tell a story, give people some narrative background that they can play around with, and not have it be terrible...I've seen it done.

Abbadon needs a big win to keep everyone rallied behind him, or else they'll just wander off to plunder while the plunder is good.

Abaddon: "I finally crushed Cadia!"
Warband: "Yeah, but what have you done lately?"

[Forum Explorer]

No, no, no. My fear is that GW will use it, inconsistently and poorly, and use 'Time is broken' to deflect any and all criticism and then allow you, the audience, to 'decide for yourself'.



I feel like that works anyway, because Abaddon and the Black Legion is on Vigilus, whilst Gulliman is fighting the Death Guard in Ultramar. They're whole Segmentums away involving totally different characters and Factions. You don't need to mess with time. They're already not interacting. Internal logic can be maintained without resorting to poor writing.



It is, and it isn't. It's only stupid if GW never uses it again (which I don't think they will, 'cause it's stupid).

I wholeheartedly support GW moving to a 'Year 0' and progressing the timeline from there. But they wont progress the timeline. They'll load everything into the same 100 years, and quote 'time dilation effects' every time they can't figure out what to do. It will be a crutch to prop up bad/lazy writing, not a narrative device to tell stories with.

For example; War Zone: Damocles specifically says that there are 8 Space Marine Chapters fighting in the Gulf. Specifically name-drops two; Raven Guard () and White Scars. The other six, while not relevant to the story, are not named, allowing you to do whatever you want...However, whatever you did in your own headcanon, you'd still be limited to only six more Chapters. You can tell a story, give people some narrative background that they can play around with, and not have it be terrible...I've seen it done.



Abaddon: "I finally crushed Cadia!"
Warband: "Yeah, but what have you done lately?"

That as well.


Kinda. But now they could actually have Guilliman wrap his stuff up without Abbadon progressing and still not have it be just Abbadon failing horrible. Basically it gives the chance to have a character move across the galaxy if need be.


Sure.


Ha
I was thinking more along the lines of the warbands going 'why should we go kill ourselves fighting heavily fortified and supported places when the Nihilus is ripe to be carved up and looted?'

[Renegade Paladin]

Even then, you're already years too late to the party. GW said one time that it's possible to enter the Warp and exit before you left. I can't recall a single canon instance of that happening...Ever. But they already said it ages ago. ...This is one of those times where GW says a thing...But then never, ever brings it up again and hopes that people will just forget about it.

There was that one Ork Warboss who emerged from the Warp before he left and then promptly killed his past self so he could get a spare of his favorite gun.

[deuterio12]

There was that one Ork Warboss who emerged from the Warp before he left and then promptly killed his past self so he could get a spare of his favorite gun.

Abaddon emerged out from the Warp before he left to leave himself the solution to a daemonic riddle.

Athough seemingly that version then puffed out of existence out of pure paradox so that would explain why we don't see a lot of future-past duplicates.

[Wraith]

The appropriate joke/meme being that unlike Abaddon, Orks don't know what paradox is so they just ignore it. It seems to work out for them so far.

[hamishspence]

Athough seemingly that version then puffed out of existence out of pure paradox so that would explain why we don't see a lot of future-past duplicates.

The appropriate joke/meme being that unlike Abaddon, Orks don't know what paradox is so they just ignore it.

"the confusion this caused stopped the Waaggh! in its tracks"


I think intent may have been that, immediately after killing his own past self, that Ork Warlord puffed out of existence, and his confused underlings promptly started fighting each other.

[Wraith]

I like to think by 'confusion' what they're actually referring to is an immediate outbreak of copy-cats, with hundreds of Orks trying to do the same thing to get their own spare gunz, choppas and trukks and popping in and out of time all over the place until eventually everyone accidentally kills all 37 iterations of their own 'grandfather'.

[hamishspence]

I like to think by 'confusion' what they're actually referring to is an immediate outbreak of copy-cats, with hundreds of Orks trying to do the same thing to get their own spare gunz, choppas and trukks and popping in and out of time all over the place until eventually everyone accidentally kills all 37 iterations of their own 'grandfather'.

Something like in Star Trek EU's Legends of the Ferengi?

17822 was a very interesting year on Ferenginar. In that year alone, over twenty thousand Grand Nagi held office; the Ferengi Financial Exchange crashed 3152 times, while setting 12322 record highs; there were 41098 civil wars; an unknown number of Ferengi-incited interstellar wars (estimates are in the millions); and the Ferengi sun went nova at least once a week.

In other words, 17822 was the year Ferenginar discovered time travel.

[deuterio12]

But you know, all warp travel already is time travel because as soon as you're going faster than light then you completely mess up causality, there was a recent thread in the forums about that and everything.

[Wraith]

The Milky Way is ~105,700 light years wide and Imperial craft can (theoretically) cross it in under a year. That sounds like "they go really, really fast", but when you put it that way - that Warp capable craft could deliberately make use of an intentional time-jump involved as well as a spacial one - then I find that really interesting with some other rather weird implications.

[Cheesegear]

because as soon as you're going faster than light then you completely mess up causality, there was a recent thread in the forums about that and everything.

No it doesn't. The thread says Relativity is time travel in an observational sense...The title of thread is very flawed. You can't actually violate causality.
Observation in FTL terms is time-travel. Because Relativity must also account for the Relativity of the Observer. FTL, quite literally means faster than it's possible to see.

Traveller travels from Point A to Point B, and back to Point A.
Traveller tells Point A what happened at Point B...However, nobody else will be able to observe the event for years. To others it seems like time-travel. Because observation can't be FTL. So it seems like time travel from people on Point A. However, the event has already happened, even if the effects can't be seen by non-Travellers for four years. But the event already hapnned. But it's not time travel. It just appears that way to non-Travellers in one specific, Relative, location.

You couldn't travel from Point A back to Point B and alter the past.

In 40K terms, this is why Astropaths are fundamental to the functioning of the Imperium. Sending messages from one fixed point to another, in real-time, light years in distance, is basically impossible unless you have literal magic. Even then, it's totally possible for messages to be too slow, and not even FTL is instantaneous. Which means that ships and fleets can still show months or even years too late to help.

...However that makes for a **** story so ships rarely show up late to a party. 'FTL Travel' famously moves at the speed of plot, and the plot is never '...and they showed up too late to do anything, and everything was already over. The end."

[LCP]

No it doesn't. The thread says Relativity is time travel in an observational sense...The title of thread is very flawed. You can't actually violate causality.

You can't actually violate causality because you can't actually travel faster than light. If you allow for FTL you absolutely allow for causality-violating effects.

Source: I am a physicist.