Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVI: If it Ain't Broke, Nerf It

[Cheesegear]

Because it would be awesome. The Big Bad of the entire setting should be on that level.

The Big Bad of the Setting died 10 thousand years ago.
Abaddon is his cheap imitation.

Abaddon is about the same size as Guilliman - only a little shorter.

So yeah. Abaddon will probably have the statline of a Daemon Prince then. S and T 6, with 9 Wounds.

So basically Guilliman will go on the fire.

[The Patterner]

Perhaps go back to the wound chart from earlier editions, where small-arms couldn't hurt the big stuff? Having S4 becomes a bigger deal, since you can actually wound T7, and your tank can no longer get blown away by lasguns.

On templates, I think just giving former template weapons a larger number of shots might help. d6 shots is not remotely comparable to how many things a flame template could hit.

I'd like it if all template weapons had the hit automatically rule not just flamers.

It would speed up the game since you don't have to roll for number of shots and then to hit, and it would feel more like an explosion.

[Drasius]

<Chaos> has Magnus, and Mortarion.
<Imperium> has Guilliman.

The Ultramarines were just given Calgar-with-a-New Hat. +1T, +1W. Otherwise, Primaris Calgar is exactly the same as Marneus Calgar, except that which Transports he can ride around in have been shuffled around.

How good is Vigilus!Abaddon really going to be? Bearing in mind that Abaddon is already heavily featured in competitive Chaos Marine and Thousand Sons (!) lists that like winning games.

M&M aren't the big bad of the setting, they aren't from the "hero" legion like Abby is, they already have the hype of being new models without anything to compare them to (bar some epic shenanigans), Abby is a big player in the recent lore even more than those two and has 20+ years of hype compared to the 2 recent blow-ins.

Why would you hope for that?
What possible reason would you want Abaddon to go to 350+ Points for?

2 reasons - 1) he'd be more representative of the ultimate threat he's meant to be - he should be something truely scary, not just something you take for his fearless aura and 2) the more points he is, the less other stuff you get to take, so pairing him with a billion cultists/tzaangors makes it less likely to have other stuff available.

The Big Bad of the Setting died 10 thousand years ago.
Abaddon is his cheap imitation.

You know that's not the narrative GW is selling, I'm almost certain you've read the various retcons and probably even the two Talon of Horus books.

So yeah. Abaddon will probably have the statline of a Daemon Prince then. S and T 6, with 9 Wounds.

So basically Guilliman will go on the fire.

Guilliman Counts as Abbadon. Hell, your deathwatch are already almost the right colour and I remember thinking your paint scheme was more Black Legion than anything else. Join us Cheese, give in to your anger disapointment...

[Brookshw]

I feel like no one's asking the critical question here. Are his arms detachable?

[Turalisj]

I feel like no one's asking the critical question here. Are his arms detachable?

Magnets bro

[Cheesegear]

It would speed up the game since you don't have to roll for number of shots...

Wraith already brought it up. But I remember pre-8th Ed., between your opponent slow-playing positioning their models so you get the least models under the template, and you slow-playing ****ing around for three minutes with the template trying to get the most hits possible...

I feel like rolling a D6 is much faster. It's not better, but it certainly isn't slower.

M&M aren't the big bad of the setting

You're right. Gathering Storm II and III never happened. Nobody ever remembers the sequels where Magnus gets to Terra itself...

Abby is a big player in the recent lore even more than those two and has 20+ years of hype compared to the 2 recent blow-ins.

I feel like with the Plague Wars being a thing, and Guilliman getting his **** pushed in, Mortarion is a pretty big deal.

[Abaddon] should be something truly scary, not just something you take for his fearless aura

Abaddon is plenty good in Melee. The reason you take him is because the win conditions of the game demand that you put 120 Fearless Cultists/Tzaangors on the board. Abaddon making it into Melee doesn't represent a win condition (and still wont, even with a new model). But, that doesn't mean he's bad in Melee when he gets there. Abaddon doesn't need buffing. Abaddon needs a new model. He doesn't need new rules.

Just like Guilliman sucks. He doesn't actually help you win the game.

Like I said the other day, you don't fix problems by making everything the same. I feel like making Abaddon 'more like Guilliman', only devalues Guilliman (even more). Is that the intent?

Like I said, I wont mind if Abaddon doesn't keep his Fearless Aura. But I keep remembering that in order to sell models, GW has to do a power creep.

[Drasius]

You're right. Gathering Storm II and III never happened. Nobody ever remembers the sequels where Magnus gets to Terra itself...
...
I feel like with the Plague Wars being a thing, and Guilliman getting his **** pushed in, Mortarion is a pretty big deal.

I never said they weren't serious threats, just that they're not the BBEG of the setting in GW's mind, and since they're effectively the DM, that's how it be.

Abaddon is plenty good in Melee. The reason you take him is because the win conditions of the game demand that you put 120 Fearless Cultists/Tzaangors on the board. Abaddon making it into Melee doesn't represent a win condition (and still wont, even with a new model). But, that doesn't mean he's bad in Melee when he gets there. Abaddon doesn't need buffing. Abaddon needs a new model. He doesn't need new rules.

Just like Guilliman sucks. He doesn't actually help you win the game.

Like I said the other day, you don't fix problems by making everything the same. I feel like making Abaddon 'more like Guilliman', only devalues Guilliman (even more). Is that the intent?

Like I said, I wont mind if Abaddon doesn't keep his Fearless Aura. But I keep remembering that in order to sell models, GW has to do a power creep.

And if they do boost him up a bunch of points, you can take less cultists or less support, which is at least some form of balancing while also not being a direct nerf to the shiny new model they're trying to sell.

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

I actually agree with Cheesegear. Abaddon isn't a primarch, straight up. He shouldn't be equivalent to one. Scary, yes, but he's scary as is.

[hamishspence]

I actually agree with Cheesegear. Abaddon isn't a primarch, straight up. He shouldn't be equivalent to one. Scary, yes, but he's scary as is.

If he got primarch-type stats - wouldn't that mean that, like Guilliman, he can't ride in Land Raiders or similar vehicles any more - which would be a bad thing for him?

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Depends on if he can use his fearless ability from within it. Most effects require to be on the board, not just in the list, so I doubt it.

[druid91]

Honestly, I prefer Alpha Legion anyway. As far as Chaos goes.

[LeSwordfish]

Nobody ever remembers the sequels where Magnus gets to Terra itself...

Yeah, and how'd that go for him? Magnus only got to Terra because he had a cool new model and the Gathering Storm books were a commercial for the cool new models: before he had a model, you never heard anything from him. (And you haven't heard anything from him since.) Don't be fooled into thinking the Daemon Primarchs are more important because they're bigger: as best I'm aware Magnus has only briefly been a serious threat to anyone save the space wolves, and Mortarion to anyone except the Ultramarines.

I'm not going to be so flippant as to say "30k doesn't count" but... it doesn't? It sets the world stage for the current story, but right now the setting just isn't about any of those things, and I think it's a stretch to say that they are - for one thing, if you include 30k, then any character mentioned in a codex is a minor pissant compared to them. You have to read quite a lot beyond the codecies and rulebooks for the Horus Heresy to matter as more than background. Hell, it's a whole different game and series of books, it's almost as separate as AOS. It's the history: just because there's a lot of it (and they're delving into it right now), doesn't mean it's relevant: Look at Game Of Thrones, or Lord of the Rings.

Abaddon is the first son of the arch-traitor. The face of the Eye Of Terror global campaign (the tagline for which was him slagging off horus). He's the only one that could unite Chaos Undivided, and by breaking the Cadian Gate had more effect on the setting than Magnus ever managed. (He also killed the only person with a model to die in all three books, unless I remember wrong). Horus is no more the villain of 40k than Darth Plagueis the wise or whatever is of Star Wars - he's the mythology, the backstory, the past. Horus was the last cycle of the Reapers, Abaddon is the current one. Horus was Morgoth, Abaddon is Sauron.

Horus was weak.
Horus was a fool.
Let the galaxy burn!
Let chaos have nice things!

[Cheesegear]

Honestly, I prefer Alpha Legion anyway. As far as Chaos goes.

Abaddon affects <Heretic Astartes>.
That includes <Alpha Legion>, too.

If you play any form of <Heretic Astartes> (except for Poxwalker-heavy Death Guard), you should be running Abaddon. I've seen a number of people simply take the -1CP hit, too. That's how good he is. Pretty much on the level of Ahriman with how good he is.

[hamishspence]

Amazing model, and the Havoc isn't bad either.

I'm wondering what the Havoc's weapon stats will be. Will they be those of a rotor cannon from 30k, those of a Loyalist assault cannon that Chaos can now use, those of a Hades autocannon, or will it have a unique statline that doesn't derive from any of these?

Given that the muzzle shroud resembles those of Leman Russ Punisher tanks - perhaps it'll have a high rate of fire but poor armour penetration - as a scaled-down Punisher cannon?

[Cheesegear]

If he got primarch-type stats - wouldn't that mean that, like Guilliman, he can't ride in Land Raiders or similar vehicles any more - which would be a bad thing for him?

No? When Abaddon is a Character with less than 10 Wounds (even Daemon Princes have 9, so I can't imagine more than that, especially as Abaddon isn't a Primarch). He can't be targeted. There is no downside to Abaddon being on foot, except for the fact that he can't go in a Land Raider. But, as Abaddon is a 'Chapter Master' (or whatever the equivalent for Chaos is), and he hands out a Fearless Aura, it is your detriment if Abaddon isn't on the board.

Depends on if he can use his fearless ability from within it.

Auras are measured from the model. If the model isn't on the board, how do you measure from it.
Short answer; No, he can't. Massive force multipliers like Abaddon don't belong in Reserve or in a Transport.

It's like saying if you could put Calgar in a Transport, would you? ...**** no.

[hamishspence]

I'm thinking more of really large-scale battles, where "being forced to footslog" might be a major disadvantage.

[Cheesegear]

I'm thinking more of really large-scale battles, where "being forced to footslog" might be a major disadvantage.

If you're just going to play Open Play, Abaddon comes out from Reserve on Turn 1.

[Requizen]

Not even close. He's Chaos Calgar. +2 CPs. Half Damage. Hands out re-rolls. That's Calgar. Not Guilliman.

Not familiar enough with Ultrablues, but that makes sense if so.

Why would you hope for that?
What possible reason would you want Abaddon to go to 350+ Points for?

EDIT: Is there a picture of Abaddon's scale, next to Primaris Calgar?

Here's what they showed in the article:

Spoiler: Big Boi

Show

I haven't seen the Primaris Calgar on the tabletop yet, but that definitely looks closer to Guilliman in size than Calgar.

[druid91]

Yeah, and how'd that go for him? Magnus only got to Terra because he had a cool new model and the Gathering Storm books were a commercial for the cool new models: before he had a model, you never heard anything from him. (And you haven't heard anything from him since.) Don't be fooled into thinking the Daemon Primarchs are more important because they're bigger: as best I'm aware Magnus has only briefly been a serious threat to anyone save the space wolves, and Mortarion to anyone except the Ultramarines.

I'm not going to be so flippant as to say "30k doesn't count" but... it doesn't? It sets the world stage for the current story, but right now the setting just isn't about any of those things, and I think it's a stretch to say that they are - for one thing, if you include 30k, then any character mentioned in a codex is a minor pissant compared to them. You have to read quite a lot beyond the codecies and rulebooks for the Horus Heresy to matter as more than background. Hell, it's a whole different game and series of books, it's almost as separate as AOS. It's the history: just because there's a lot of it (and they're delving into it right now), doesn't mean it's relevant: Look at Game Of Thrones, or Lord of the Rings.

Abaddon is the first son of the arch-traitor. The face of the Eye Of Terror global campaign (the tagline for which was him slagging off horus). He's the only one that could unite Chaos Undivided, and by breaking the Cadian Gate had more effect on the setting than Magnus ever managed. (He also killed the only person with a model to die in all three books, unless I remember wrong). Horus is no more the villain of 40k than Darth Plagueis the wise or whatever is of Star Wars - he's the mythology, the backstory, the past. Horus was the last cycle of the Reapers, Abaddon is the current one. Horus was Morgoth, Abaddon is Sauron.

Horus was weak.
Horus was a fool.
Let the galaxy burn!
Let chaos have nice things!

He's Abaddon the Armless, failure of 13 black crusades who had to sacrifice a Blackstone fortress to get past level 1 of 'Conquering the Imperium of Man for Chaos'

GW can try to puff him up as the big bad. But I don't think they will succeed.

Abaddon affects <Heretic Astartes>.
That includes <Alpha Legion>, too.

If you play any form of <Heretic Astartes> (except for Poxwalker-heavy Death Guard), you should be running Abaddon. I've seen a number of people simply take the -1CP hit, too. That's how good he is. Pretty much on the level of Ahriman with how good he is.

Abaddon is also...

A.) A unique named character, which are basically forbidden in my meta. (Space wolves and Mars are greatly saddened by this.)

B.) Someone who if present should be the warlord. Meaning I can't use the Alpha Legion Whack A Mole warlord trait. Which is the only reason I'd play chaos because it's hilarious.

[hamishspence]

I haven't seen the Primaris Calgar on the tabletop yet, but that definitely looks closer to Guilliman in size than Calgar.

Bolter and Chainsword also had a pretty good comparison pic - images adjusted until the bases are the same size, then combined:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/t...6#entry5270253

Guilliman's legs are noticably longer, but the torsos of each are fairly comparable.

[CN the Logos]

Guys, they can explain changes in Abaddon's size and/or buffing him to primarch-level stats with "the Gods favor him but he hasn't quite become a daemon prince yet." Things changing size and shape and developing new abilities is sort of a Chaos thing.

Speaking of which, does anyone know what base size the new Obliterators are going to be on yet?

[hamishspence]

Guys, they can explain changes in Abaddon's size and/or buffing him to primarch-level stats with "the Gods favor him but he hasn't quite become a daemon prince yet." Things changing size and shape and developing new abilities is sort of a Chaos thing.

My preferred answer is

"Past Abaddon model matched past terminators. Now that terminators are bigger, Abaddon needs to be bigger".

[Cheesegear]

Spoiler: Big Boi

Show

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/t...6#entry5270253

That's pretty much exactly what I was afraid of.

I was hoping that Abaddon would be on a 50mm, like his counterpart Calgar.
But if they're going to make Abaddon a Primarch...I guess nothing means anything, anymore.

[hamishspence]

How does he actually compare in bulk to the biggest Primaris models though - Calgar, Gravis Captains?

I think it's safe to say he's still going to be a bit smaller than the 30k primarchs, especially the Terminator-type ones like Horus or Perturabo.

[LeSwordfish]

That's pretty much exactly what I was afraid of.

I was hoping that Abaddon would be on a 50mm, like his counterpart Calgar.
But if they're going to make Abaddon a Primarch...I guess nothing means anything, anymore.

I don't think Calgar is his counterpart any more.

[Blackhawk748]

Here's what they showed in the article:

Spoiler: Big Boi

Show

I haven't seen the Primaris Calgar on the tabletop yet, but that definitely looks closer to Guilliman in size than Calgar.

That looks more like supped up Terminator armor size than Guilliman size. Gotta take out the bit of stuff under his feet to get the real size.

Bolter and Chainsword also had a pretty good comparison pic - images adjusted until the bases are the same size, then combined:

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/t...6#entry5270253

Guilliman's legs are noticably longer, but the torsos of each are fairly comparable.

Hmmmm. Ya, thats looking more like mini Primarch, and thats annoying.

[Cheesegear]

So, here's a thing...

Inflict Damage (pg 181): "If a model's wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play."
Roboute Guilliman: "...the first time Roboute Guilliman is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6. On a 4+ set him up again at the end of the phase [...] with [not 0] wounds."
Only in Death...:" "...when an <Adeptus Astartes Character> is slain..."

See, the way I've always played it, is that if Guilliman succeeds in his roll, he isn't dead. He doesn't give Warlord/Kingslayer and/or a KP...Which means he isn't dead, which means he can't Only in Death... However, I watched two players today run Guilliman (because Assassins are the new hotness), and both played Only in Death..., even after Guilliman succeed the roll.

Am I wrong? That Guilliman succeeding on the get-up roll means he has died? Giving up a KP, and being a target for Only in Death...? Have I been cheating for the entirety of 8th Ed.? I don't think I have.

Also, an Eversor exploding in an opponent's Character's face counts as an Assassin killing a Character, right?

[Requizen]

So, here's a thing...

Inflict Damage (pg 181): "If a model's wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play."
Roboute Guilliman: "...the first time Roboute Guilliman is reduced to 0 wounds, roll a D6. On a 4+ set him up again at the end of the phase [...] with [not 0] wounds."
Only in Death...:" "...when an <Adeptus Astartes Character> is slain..."

See, the way I've always played it, is that if Guilliman succeeds in his roll, he isn't dead. He doesn't give Warlord/Kingslayer and/or a KP...Which means he isn't dead, which means he can't Only in Death... However, I watched two players today run Guilliman (because Assassins are the new hotness), and both played Only in Death..., even after Guilliman succeed the roll.

Am I wrong? That Guilliman succeeding on the get-up roll means he has died? Giving up a KP, and being a target for Only in Death...? Have I been cheating for the entirety of 8th Ed.? I don't think I have.

Also, an Eversor exploding in an opponent's Character's face counts as an Assassin killing a Character, right?

Hm, very interesting. I would argue that he's not destroyed or removed from play, but he might be slain? That probably needs a FAQ.

Very much yes on the Eversor, though. It's an ability on that Dataslate.

Speaking of Dataslates: Primaris Scouts (sorta kinda) https://www.warhammer-community.com/...mepage-post-3/

A couple solid spells, and the Snipers might actually be worth bringing depending on points. Is it time for Req to start that Primaris army he's been considering for so long? (Once I finish my 150 Bonesplitterz, of course)

[Wraith]

I think that Cheesegear's interpretation is the correct one, HOWEVER only through my own interpretation and not through any specific ruling.

I came to it via comparing it to St.Celestine - her rules state that if she is reduced to 0 wounds then she is put back on a 2+ and is only considered slain if you roll a 1 or she has run out of Gemini to consume and thus has to leave play.

Similarly, models removed in the Morale phase; they're specifically only "removed from play" rather than "reduced to 0 wounds" and yet are considered slain. Unless broken models somehow are not considered slain, which would be... weird.

So, anyway. While Guilliman's rule is not identical to either of these things, it seems pretty solid that it's intended he has to be actually leaving the table before he is considered slain; merely losing wounds is just the trigger that tries to remove him, rather than the actual fulfilment of the definition.

Although having said that, Celestine might be the example that proves that Guilliman *IS* slain even if he doesn't leave the table. Her resurrection specifically states that she isn't slain, and his do not, which suggests that the ordinary rule - reduced to 0 wounds - is true, and the old "if it's not written down, it doesn't happen" thing comes into effect.
I don't think that I have helped as much as I thought I would....

[LeSwordfish]

Although having said that, Celestine might be the example that proves that Guilliman *IS* slain even if he doesn't leave the table. Her resurrection specifically states that she isn't slain, and his do not, which suggests that the ordinary rule - reduced to 0 wounds - is true, and the old "if it's not written down, it doesn't happen" thing comes into effect.

I'm tempted to agree with this interpretation - 8th ed is a very literal game. He's reduced to zero wounds, so he's slain, and removed, and if you rolled a 4+ he's "un-removed".