OOTS #1162 - The Discussion Thread

[Peelee]

Given that he's slated to return in Thrawn: Treason, I suspect we'll be getting a bit more of Vanto's perspective.

I'm very excited. Wasnt a big fan of Alliances, and I suspect it's because I generally love the protégé character, and it lacked one.

[Fyraltari]

Aw man, I was hoping Pellaeon would show up in Alliances, since he's canon and all.

[Jasdoif]

There is none, until someone organizes a group that waits for the two sides to nearly destroy themselves and then suddenly takes over.

Like Palpatine with the Separatists and the Republic?

Or in the case of Skyrim, the Aldmeri Dominion (a different empire than the Empire).

[Clistenes]

I redacted the last remark because we are not discussing real life, as it is forbidden - even though fictional empires are usually modeled on real life ones.

A kingdom may be good or evil. A republic may be good or evil.

An empire is what happens when a land begins to invade other lands and make these other lands its lands and/or impose their order on those lands.

There's no such thing as a good empire. All empires are evil.

Sometimes a king decides he is so awesome that he really needs a fancier title and starts calling himself "Emperor", even if he hasn't conquered anything. There are a few examples in the real world. I remember the case of a king whose parents and grandparents had unified several kingdoms through marriage, and who tried to have the Pope grant him an imperial title... In other cases, the monarch just wanted a title as fancy or fancier than his neighbors (I can remember at least two examples of monarchies doing that...).

In other cases, the Empire was formed centuries or even thousands of years ago, and the imperial title has been passed down despite little expansion happening since then...

Since real-life examples are forbidden, take a look at Westeros from Game of Thrones/Song of Ice and Fire. It was created by force 300 years ago, and it's the size of a continent, pretty much an Empire in all but in name... but everybody has become quite comfortable being part of it at the beginning of the series: The Northeners and Riverlanders only secede after the Lannisters kill Ned Stark and Robert Baratheon's brothers start fighting each other, and Rob Stark doesn't know which of them to support...

As for the Ironborn, they want to secede in order to be allowed to rob, rape and enslave the rest of Westeros, and they start building their own empire even before they have managed to achieve independence from the Iron Throne...

By the way, the Ironborn are a perfect example of a despicable "Resistance" that is way worse than the "Empire..."

[hamishspence]

By the way, the Ironborn are a perfect example of a despicable "Resistance" that is way worse than the "Empire..."

And for another example:

At least in Slaver's Bay, it's far easier to root for Daenerys than for the Sons of the Harpy.

Rooting against both is an option, but when the Imperials are vastly nicer than their foes it can feel a bit uncomfortable to root against them.

I certainly couldn't comfortably root against, for example, Gaunt's Ghosts, in 40K, when they're fighting Chaos.

[Algeh]

Depends on which backstory for Tiber Septim you go with. He wasn't always a Nord, and anyway his Empire started in Cyrodiil.

Since we're all pretty thoroughly off-topic here anyway, I thought I'd take this moment to share that every time I read "Cyrodiil" I get it mixed up with "Cyndaquil" and it makes for some kind of surreal moments.

Back to the comic, I'm finding it interesting to look at the mixture of clothing and weapons used in the last panel and how it makes it really clear that this is a scratch force of adventurers and other unofficial types rather than an organized unit of something with a central supplier.

I see at least 3 different types of axes, a mixture of boot types, and a lot of other little details like that, which is an appreciated amount of effort for a comic like this where cutting and pasting an existing object would be easier than making a new one. It looks like the two dwarves in the beanie hats in the back may be wearing uniform gear (with a somewhat-similar look to Minrah's - I wonder if they're from her old unit?), but everyone else seems to have personal gear.

[Fish]

Sounds like The Weirdo’s system goes like this:
1. Unlimited personal rights for anyone who is, in the Weirdo’s personal definition, a victim of oppression.
2. No rights for anyone who can be classified (according to the Weirdo) as associated with, aligned with, encompassed by, benefiting from, employed by, enslaved by, controlled by, or labeled similarly to, any oppressing group.

It sounds repugnant to me. Death by category is what Lawful Evil people do.

[Ironsmith]

There is none, until someone organizes a group that waits for the two sides to nearly destroy themselves and then suddenly takes over.

Funny you should say that. That's exactly the strategy of the Thalmor, arguably the most imperialistic faction in the Elder Scrolls 'verse, who among other things believe in their own racial supremacy and are actively seeking a way to destroy the world and remake it in their own image. They can be accurately described as "Nazi elves" for the most part, which I would think you would be against moreso than even the Tamrielic Empire. Even more ironic is that they're the ones responsible for the Stormcloak rebellion in the first place- they effectively brainwashed Ulfric into having the mentality needed to lead such a rebellion, and then forced the Talos ban on the Empire by the means of the White-Gold Concordat, sowing the seeds from which the rebellion would grow.

It's entirely arguable that the Empire is being oppressed here, in that it's having its hand forced by a bigger, stronger military force to do something it really doesn't want to do (Talos/Tiber Septim was their first emperor, after all) and suffering for it badly.

Spoiler

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(Incidentally, I find myself fighting for the Imperials almost every time when I play Skyrim; re-unifying the country is a tall order, but a good first step is getting the fighting to stop, which the Dragonborn can do relatively quickly and decisively. The game doesn't let you play the political side of this much, but from there, I'd go with rallying the Stormcloak remnants behind the Dragonborn as a leader (making the oft-repeated connection between themselves and Tiber Septim), while still remaining loyal to the Empire (of Talos) and therefore re-unifying the two factions in practical terms, if not entirely in spirit. Plus, the Empire is more interested in stability than the Stormcloaks, are better at it in terms of infrastructure, and the one major gripe (the Talos ban) I'd have with them isn't their own; contrast that with Stormcloaks, who are typically openly, brazenly racist for no other reason than "Well, they ain't a Nord".

[terodil]

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(Incidentally, I find myself fighting for the Imperials almost every time when I play Skyrim; re-unifying the country is a tall order, but a good first step is getting the fighting to stop, which the Dragonborn can do relatively quickly and decisively. The game doesn't let you play the political side of this much, but from there, I'd go with rallying the Stormcloak remnants behind the Dragonborn as a leader (making the oft-repeated connection between themselves and Tiber Septim), while still remaining loyal to the Empire (of Talos) and therefore re-unifying the two factions in practical terms, if not entirely in spirit. Plus, the Empire is more interested in stability than the Stormcloaks, are better at it in terms of infrastructure, and the one major gripe (the Talos ban) I'd have with them isn't their own; contrast that with Stormcloaks, who are typically openly, brazenly racist for no other reason than "Well, they ain't a Nord".

TBH it doesn't help that Ulfric is a total a**hat. The game is actually pretty well done in creating a setting where you have good reason to detest everybody -- the Imperials for trying to chop off your head just because you were in the wider vicinity when Ulfric was caught, the Thalmor for being horrible people, and Ulfric for... well being Ulfric and being the head of a totally unlikable faction.

... which is the reason why my ladies almost always become vampires (or arch-illusionists) and 'invite' village after village into their own growing dominion (there has been nobody that ever refused the offer publicly. Curious, that.) Much better solution for everybody involved.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Spoiler: Outbound Flight

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I won't say you're exactly wrong, but he does a whole lot of manipulation to be able to say "well technically it wasn't a pre-emptive strike," which is all fairly machiavellian.

Spoiler: Response

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And apparently the Chiss didn't buy his solipsism, since they kicked him to the cosmic curb and he had to go to work for the Empire.

[hamishspence]

Spoiler: Response

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And apparently the Chiss didn't buy his solipsism, since they kicked him to the cosmic curb and he had to go to work for the Empire.

Apparently it wasn't for that incident specifically, but for a later one.

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"At any rate, Doriana explained the entire situation to Thrawn and convinced him that Outbound Flight had to be destroyed. Two weeks later, when the ship arrived in Chiss space, Thrawn was waiting."

"Good-bye, Outbound Flight," Mara murmured.

"Yes," Parck agreed. "But though that was the end of that, it was the beginning of trouble for Thrawn himself. The Chiss military philosophy, you see, did not recognize the morality of preemptive strikes. What Thrawn did was, in their minds, equivalent to murder."

Mara snorted gently. "No offense, Admiral, but it sounds to me like it's your perceptions that need an overhaul. How can the slaughter of a bunch of Jedi Masters minding their own business be anything but murder?"

Parck looked at her gravely. "You'll understand, Mara," he said, his voice almost trembling. "In time, you'll understand."

Mara frowned. The man was either a terrific actor or there was something buried in all of this that had him well and truly terrified. Again, she stretched out with the Force; again, she couldn't seem to touch him at all.

With an obvious effort, Parck pulled himself together. "But again, I'm getting ahead of myself. As I said, Thrawn's action did not sit well with the ruling Chiss families. He was able to talk his way clear and retain his position, but from that point on they watched him very carefully.

"And eventually, as he dealt with some of the Chiss's enemies, he pushed things just a little too far. He was brought up on charges, stripped of all rank, and sent into exile on an uninhabited world at the edge of Imperial space."

[happycrow]

Has surely been said already somewhere in the 34+ previous pages, but

so looking forward to seeing what a Three-Piece Dwarven Combat Band does with their lutes.

"Diggy Diggy Hole" meets Sabaton, when DIE HEROIC plays.

[Peelee]

Apparently it wasn't for that incident specifically, but for a later one.

Spoiler

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"At any rate, Doriana explained the entire situation to Thrawn and convinced him that Outbound Flight had to be destroyed. Two weeks later, when the ship arrived in Chiss space, Thrawn was waiting."

"Good-bye, Outbound Flight," Mara murmured.

"Yes," Parck agreed. "But though that was the end of that, it was the beginning of trouble for Thrawn himself. The Chiss military philosophy, you see, did not recognize the morality of preemptive strikes. What Thrawn did was, in their minds, equivalent to murder."

Mara snorted gently. "No offense, Admiral, but it sounds to me like it's your perceptions that need an overhaul. How can the slaughter of a bunch of Jedi Masters minding their own business be anything but murder?"

Parck looked at her gravely. "You'll understand, Mara," he said, his voice almost trembling. "In time, you'll understand."

Mara frowned. The man was either a terrific actor or there was something buried in all of this that had him well and truly terrified. Again, she stretched out with the Force; again, she couldn't seem to touch him at all.

With an obvious effort, Parck pulled himself together. "But again, I'm getting ahead of myself. As I said, Thrawn's action did not sit well with the ruling Chiss families. He was able to talk his way clear and retain his position, but from that point on they watched him very carefully.

"And eventually, as he dealt with some of the Chiss's enemies, he pushed things just a little too far. He was brought up on charges, stripped of all rank, and sent into exile on an uninhabited world at the edge of Imperial space."

Spoiler

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Purely extrapolation here, but it sounds like the Chids Ascendancy military works on proving guilt being a requirement for removal, because the Aristocra knew it stank to high heaven and yet.

[Rogar Demonblud]

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IMS, there's hints that the higher ups had several agents working under Thrawn and reporting on him to make sure they had proof the next time. Mister Strategic Genius apparently didn't notice.

[zimmerwald1915]

But in that case say they are aristocratic, seems a bit like Zim is exaghgerating to try to discredit the Rebellion since of the two people with aristocratic titles, both are said to be ceremonial/meaningless and the leader's own skill in diplomacy is how they got their position in the Old Republic, and their willingness to fight (and fact that they owned ships) was what got them into the rebellion.

The persistence of aristocratic titles is only one indication of the reactionary nature of the ARR - a far better one, as you point out, are its incorporation into itself of virtually private armies. It's also telling that from the earliest points had its power base in the Senate. The Senate gets conflated with a democratic chamber because Lucas doesn't know anything about anything, but it isn't. It doesn't represent populations, but individual worlds regardless of population, as well as groups like the Trade Federation and Techno Union. It is more like a medieval Estate than anything else.

Sometimes a king decides he is so awesome that he really needs a fancier title and starts calling himself "Emperor", even if he hasn't conquered anything. There are a few examples in the real world. I remember the case of a king whose parents and grandparents had unified several kingdoms through marriage, and who tried to have the Pope grant him an imperial title... In other cases, the monarch just wanted a title as fancy or fancier than his neighbors (I can remember at least two examples of monarchies doing that...).

Do you want help with that whitewash, Tom?

By the way, the Ironborn are a perfect example of a despicable "Resistance" that is way worse than the "Empire..."

Aren't the Greyjoys supporting the Iron Throne at this point? Or is that just in the show?

[hroþila]

Stating the obvious is not whitewashing. It is absurd to rely on an administrative designation to decide who's in the right (and which country's civilians deserve to die, apparently). What if an empire was invaded (for the second time in 40 years, for example) by a kingdom that was trying to conquer it and turn it into a colony? What if, on top of that, the kingdom in question had the worst kind of government and ideology? That sounds implausible, huh?

[zimmerwald1915]

Stating the obvious is not whitewashing. It is absurd to rely on an administrative designation to decide who's in the right (and which country's civilians deserve to die, apparently). What if an empire was invaded (for the second time in 40 years, for example) by a kingdom that was trying to conquer it and turn it into a colony? What if, on top of that, the kingdom in question had the worst kind of government and ideology? That sounds implausible, huh?

You seem to have jumped forward two hundred years and multiple countries' depopulation in the name of dynastic aggrandizement from where Clistenes was.

[ijuinkun]

because Sigdi is awesome, and going to ruin everything in a way no one expect: Clanmother's Veto

That's a good idea. Assuming that all clans have a nominal right to have a representative on the Council, then Hilgya and Sigdi being "head" of their respective clans would mean that they are allowed to cast a vote, and Gontor's careful "dominate 50% plus one" count becomes "50% minus one". Thus, the motion to destroy the world fails without having to actually break anybody free of the vampiric domination first.

[Ruck]

Aren't the Greyjoys supporting the Iron Throne at this point? Or is that just in the show?

I think it's just in the show, but since the books are never getting finished, that might as well be the document of record.

[Mightymosy]

The prequel movies: real.

The EU books: real.

The sequel movies: not real.

That's one of the worst proposals I've ever heard.

Given whom you guys keep talking to (or at I should say) for yet another 20+ pages now (again!) I feel I should take this statement as an insult

The Thrawn trilogy suffers from being way too in love with its villain, to the point of Zahn forgetting in later books that he was actually a villain.

Still better on some points (notably treating droids as people) than the original movies, though on none does it approach the level of the movies you prefer to ignore. (It should go without saying that everything I've ever read for the EU is better than the prequel movies.)

Yes, the Thrawn books have lows.
Everyone their opinion.

What's yours?
For example, which do you prefer, of these two sequel options:
1. Thrawn books
2. TFA & TLJ
?

I have read zero Star Wars novels. I had enough second-hand accounts to kill whatever interest there might have had (which in itself, was rather unlikely).

I'm not a huge expanded universe fan, no matter the universe. I prefer original content in more succinct stories in less detailed universes, than huge multi-authorial messes of infinite plot holes, inconsistencies, stale recycled crap, power creep, and cheap gimmicks.

Namely for many of these reasons I hate the sequels. And given Disney will launch their own streaming platform I have no intent to subscribe to, I'll probably never see ep 9.

I agree with most of what you said.
Still, I enjoyed reading the Thrawn books and the trilogy with the Jedi academy, Kyp Durron and Admiral Daala (don't know the English title).

Would a nice coherent movie sequel have been better?
Absolutely! But in my opinion, that's not what we got either way, so that's that for me....

[AstralFire]

What's yours?
For example, which do you prefer, of these two sequel options:
1. Thrawn books
2. TFA & TLJ
?

TFA and TLJ. The only good character in the Thrawn books is Pellaeon.

I'm not gonna say I didn't enjoy Heir to the Empire, and I appreciate what Zahn did in expanding the WE d6 RPG into the start of something big and beautiful. But it's not particularly good, and Thrawn's schtick is uncompelling -- it might have worked better under a different author. (Maybe Stover? He was always the best at getting the most out of others' characters.)

Talon Karrde is a weaker Lando.

Mara Jade... I liked, but I feel like never developed into anything more than "Luke's beautiful love interest" as far as character depth and personality. Within the Duology itself, she was good at zig-zagging him in the story, but all of the characters except Pellaeon suffer badly from having to prove to the audience that they're somehow better versions of the OT characters rather than just... being better. It wouldn't have been that hard.

I liked the idea behind the Clone Wars as conceived for the story, but C'baoth and Luuke were egh. Ysalamiri I dislike for all the reasons I dislike anti-magic fields -- they highlight the fact that supernatural things are 'added' to base reality and let them just be turned off.

[vwnewt]

So what music would you choose for this part of the strip were it a movie?

Klaus Badelt from the Pirates franchise: "He's a Pirate."

Play it while you're on the throne. It feels like you're doing the Lord's work.

[Shining Wrath]

Dwarven clan honor FTW.

[KorvinStarmast]

Hey hey
We're near approaching 6 years since the last gate destruction, yet in comic, six weeks haven't passed yet.

Temporal distortion is OK as a vehicle for entertainment. IRL, not so much.

[Fyraltari]

Temporal distortion is OK as a vehicle for entertainment. IRL, not so much.

But vehicles cause temporal distortion! If they’re fast enough.

[zimmerwald1915]

But vehicles cause temporal distortion! If they’re fast enough.

We all cause temporal distortions just by existing. As does the planet, by existing and moving. Oh, and no two of us experience the same universe.

[Peelee]

the trilogy with the Jedi academy (don't know the English title).

The Jedi Academy Trilogy.

Oh, and no two of us experience the same universe.

I'ma need to see a mathematical proof of that.

[Fyraltari]

We all cause temporal distortions just by existing. As does the planet, by existing and moving. Oh, and no two of us experience the same universe.

Fine, fine, ‘noticeable temporal distortion’. Happy?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Fine, fine, ‘noticeable temporal distortion’. Happy?

Noticeable by humans, or by atomic clocks?

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

You need a clock to notice the difference.