Warhammer 40K Tabletop Thread XXXVII: Highlighting the Contrasts

[Wraith]

I think it also possible that Cheesegear is saying all of this as if from *Games Workshop's perspective*, in a somewhat sarcastic fashion.

GW want everyone to come into their store and give them all of the money, and to them paint everything in GW paints using GW brushes so that they can pla GW games on GW tables. They should then take lots of photos of everyone having a wonderful time at GW and then post them to social media, so that everyone who is NOT playing GW games thinks that they SHOULD go and play GW games.

It's free advertising. Anything less is "ruining it"; ie, not making the GW brand look absolutely spiffing to everyone who does and doesn't already buy GW products.

If you're sat at home, fudging rules for your decade-old models hastily Counts As'd into something vaguely playable and never sharing how much fun your having outside of the tiny little group who you're already having fun with, you're "killing the game" by not shilling it to new suckers "helping the community to grow".

At least, such is how I was reading that statement.

Though there is also a question of how one defines a hobby community. I consider myself to be part of several to varying degrees, and the extent to which I engage with each is different. Thinking of ‘the community’ as a monolithic entity, even in a local area, is too simplistic. It’s more like different bubbles of community, or a venn diagram.

Exactly.

*WE* are a community, the GitP/40k thread, for example. But in the same breath: Screw those guys over in Forums/Role-Playing Games/D&D 4e, the hell do they know about having fun? And don't even get me started on those jerks on DakkaDakka/40k, they're DEFINITELY doing it wrong!

[LansXero]

I just choose a different community. And if the community I choose is like two other people and we play what we want on someone's dinner table with beers, how absolutely dare you say we're killing the game. Why does a "community" have to be a big group? And why do you then conflate that community of people with the metagame? (i know why, because you can't imagine people playing for any other reason than to win the best). It's not my responsibility to keep my local store or club going if I don't want to play there. I'm the customer in this case, it's their job to "sell" the community to me.

But you are. Im sorry if it feels like an attack, and I assume you are not actively setting out to do it nor much care if you do, but that doesnt change the end result: with more isolation / people mangling the rules and playing their own frankenstein of narrative / open play, frequency of games and new player acquisition drops or stops completely. Since people WILL drop the hobby over time, this means the game dies in that area after a while, as a direct effect of 'screw the community'. If this is an outcome you're comfortable with then great, but its no less killing the game because of that acceptance.

You are right though in that its not your duty to show up or try to keep it going; that onus is on the TO / Owner, but you could try to meet them halfway, to voice your doubts, concerns and suggestions and they should provide a listening ear. Not everything will be tailored to your exact specifications, but many times finding a common ground is just a matter of speaking up.

I don't. I don't owe them anything. They can find another game. Or maybe they can't: that's not my problem. I'm not going to set out to hurt anyone's feelings but if they're upset by the nicest way I can phrase "I don't think playing with you would be fun, i'm going home instead" then that's their problem.

Someone wants to date you.
You don't want to date them.

Do you go on the date with them? Of course you don't, duh.

And thus we have Japan's birth rate. Nobody can force them, of course. Doesnt mean the country isnt filling up with old people and inmigrants.

[Cheesegear]

how absolutely dare you say we're killing the game.

You're not killing my game. I don't care what you do.
And I have to imagine that you're not killing your game. You keep doing whatever you want.

You're killing whoever plays in that store's, game. Which, as has been pointed out, you don't care about.

And why do you then conflate that community of people with the metagame?

The metagame, and your metagame, is different.
Your meta, is the one with you, and the people you play against, in it. If no-one you know, runs Guard Brigades with a Knight Valiant, you don't have to build a list against that, do you?
But that's the meta! Sure. But it's not your meta.

My meta, contains no Ork or T'au players. Because no-one I know, plays Orks or T'au.
If someone comes along, who plays Orks or T'au, you bet I want to play games with them.

(i know why, because you can't imagine people playing for any other reason than to win the best).

It's because local metas gonna local, and can be anything, and your metagame, and your community, are the same thing.

Someone wants to date you.
You don't want to date them.

Do you go on the date with them? Of course you don't, duh.

Do you equate toy soldiers to your personal life all the time?

[Requizen]

I find this conversation super interesting, btw.

As... brusque as we all know Cheese can be, I mostly agree with him here. Subdividing communities is the death of communities. I've seen it over and over again across multiple games and what not. While obviously Warhammer has been going (relatively) strong for quite some time, local communities and larger organizations/cultures have crashed and burned over this exact thing.

Now obviously it's not one's own responsibility to make all their decisions for the greater good of the community - it's just a hobby, not a job or some important cornerstone of life. But, if you want to continue having a place to go play games, trying to make that community better is the #1 thing you can do with your hobby time. When you make a decision that erodes at that community, not only are you making it harder for yourself to be involved with those people, you're also alienating one or both sides from prospective new players.

Now if one is ok just playing in the garage with a small group of friends, great! My issue comes when those groups go outside their microcosm and start to try to shift larger groups (stores or internet) over the way they want the game to be played. If one chooses to restrict or even dissociate themselves from the community at large, they should accept that they no longer have influence on that group.

This is why I find it very annoying when people come asking for advice on how to beat a list, and then get annoyed when they're told to buy new things because what they have doesn't cut it. "But I don't want to buy anything or change what I have! They rules shouldn't work that way!", they say. And this is part of the reason "meta" is such a dirty word sometimes. But at the end of the day, in my opinion at least, the way a game grows and changes is if the people involved are also willing to grow and change, and with a hobby like Warhammer, that means buying new things or shelving favorite units that just don't work no matter how hard you try. And we want the hobby to grow and change. Stagnation bores people, and you lose a lot more people to being bored than to rules changes and model releases in my experience.

Cheese is very right in one thing: communication makes the community better. You can't always talk someone out of running a teeth-kick ITC list against a new player. Sometimes people are just like that. But to not even try is essentially saying, "I don't care if this community has issues". Which is, of course, one's prerogative if they wish it to be, but then I believe that person can not complain about the direction the community takes if they don't try to make it better.

</ramble>

[LeSwordfish]

You're not killing my game. I don't care what you do.
And I have to imagine that you're not killing your game. You keep doing whatever you want.

You're killing whoever plays in that store's, game.

A) No i'm not? I can't imagine why my presence or absence would matter, and B) That's their problem.

Yes. But why don't you want to play there?
What can your local manager do better?
What can your local meta, do better?
What is that you're missing? Have you told people? Have you asked people?

It's not my job to make a group of people I don't hang out with cater to me. If they start doing it by themselves then perhaps I'll come along and join in: if they don't, I shan't, with no particular hard feelings. If they're as worried about individuals playing the game at home as you seem to be, then the outreach is on them, not me.

For example, I played loads of games at the Peterborough GW back when I lived there, because it was the only group I had, and because they regularly ran fun events. Now I live nearer the Cambridge one, which doesn't really do event days, so even though it's more convenient, I mostly hang out at clubs or go to big meetups. If they asked "what would get you into the store to play games more", I'd say "I like event games like apocalypse or mini-tournaments". I don't care enough (or feel entitled enough) to go up to the manager and go "hey, do a big gameday."

(Given the amount I spend in his shop, I can't imagine the manager minds very much if I'm in there physically playing.)

Why wouldn't playing with them be fun? Could they do something to change and make it fun?
More importantly, why should they change? Why don't you?

I'm not asking them to change. Sometimes me and another person just have different philosophies on the game. Neither is necessarily wrong, but I don't see the point of spending a couple of hours with those philosophies clashing if it's not going to be enjoyable.

Do you equate toy soldiers to your personal life all the time?

oh now it's just toy soldiers

(My hobby time and how I spend it is also my personal life! A bad date or bad game of 40k is equally a rubbish evening, and i'm not going to be guilted into either.)

[Cheesegear]

I think it also possible that Cheesegear is saying all of this as if from *Games Workshop's perspective*, in a somewhat sarcastic fashion.

I'm saying from your local community's perspective.

GW Your Local Store wants everyone to come into their store and give them all of the money...

That way they don't close down. That way their gaming space, with all the tables, with all the terrain, and with the common ground that almost everyone in the local area can get to, can come and have games in. The more people who walk through those doors, the better.

Your local gaming club, is the same. Until such point as they are at capacity for the venue that they're in, they get more dues out of their members. That means more tournaments (i.e; prize support), it means more events. It means more tables. It means...The club is better, because it has more members it.

The community's metagame is also better. Because not everyone has the same playstyles, same armies, plays at the same points limits, etc. The more diverse types of games people play - because of the community that they're in - the better they will become at the game.

Someone wants to play 1000 Points. Cool. Do I have 1000 Points? Well it's very different from 2000 Points. Guess I have to switch up my thinking. Someone wants to play 2v2 or 3v3? Great. This requires very different thinking to what I'm used to. Hell, someone wants to play Apocalypse. Sweet. Let's organise it. How many players can we get? This'll be different.

The more people you have in your meta/community, the more diverse and vibrant it will (or rather, should) be.
Unless your community is a toxic hellhole that's declared that there's only one right way to play, with one set of models, at one points limit, and nobody in the whole venue refuses to budge. In that case you'll have 30-50 basically identical players, which is ****, and it's why a whole bunch of people don't like going to tournaments.

and to them paint everything in GW paints using GW brushes so that they can pla GW games on GW tables.

**** no.

They should then take lots of photos of everyone having a wonderful time at GW and then post them to social media, so that everyone who is NOT playing GW games thinks that they SHOULD go and play GW games.

lol. This absolutely isn't what I meant.
But I can see the logic.

For example, I played loads of games at the Peterborough GW back when I lived there, because it was the only group I had, and because they regularly ran fun events. Now I live nearer the Cambridge one, which doesn't really do event days, so even though it's more convenient, I mostly hang out at clubs or go to big meetups. If they asked "what would get you into the store to play games more", I'd say "I like event games like apocalypse or mini-tournaments".

If they asked... And I guess the implication is that they haven't.
Which actually is ****ty on their part, and I agree with you.

I don't care enough (or feel entitled enough) to go up to the manager and go "hey, do a big gameday."

I do. It works.
If you're a regular, he'll probably gauge interest at the very least.

oh now it's just toy soldiers

It always has been.

(My hobby time and how I spend it is also my personal life! A bad date or bad game of 40k is equally a rubbish evening, and i'm not going to be guilted into either.)

Oh. I thought more along the lines of "Spend the next 3-6 months with this person two or three times a week, for anywhere between 2 hours or an overnight at a time... Even though you don't even like them."

[Avaris]

As... brusque as we all know Cheese can be, I mostly agree with him here. Subdividing communities is the death of communities. I've seen it over and over again across multiple games and what not. While obviously Warhammer has been going (relatively) strong for quite some time, local communities and larger organizations/cultures have crashed and burned over this exact thing.

I’m mostly just observing for a similar reason. Lansxero puts it very well: people will drift away from a community over time, so people need to participate in it so that it can remain sustainable. Cheesegear is also absolutely right that talking to people in your community is vital.

I object to the suggestion that the importance of maintaining the community means that you should only be playing at home if your wider community space is not available, as different spaces suit me at different times. But the general principle is sound.

[LeSwordfish]

If they asked... And I guess the implication is that they haven't.
Which actually is ****ty on their part, and I agree with you.

I don't really feel it's ****ty of them, to be honest. They're doing fine without me. I'm doing fine without them. You could perhaps make the argument that it's poor community management, but as I understand it, the Cambridge GW is one of the ones doing best in the country so it seems to be working for them.

[LCP]

It's interesting to see three different people straining to come up with reasonable interpretations of what Cheesegear is saying when the simple explanation is he's just getting his weekly dose of finding a way to tell people that they're wrong.

Also, here's a corollary to Cheese's point: if your definition of your hobby requires you to tell people enjoying themselves in their own homes that they are 'killing' it and should feel bad, your hobby deserves to die.

[LeSwordfish]

Also, the hobby in general seems to be doing fine. Perhaps this is a tragedy of the commons issue and if everyone behaved the way i'm advocating we'd be in trouble, but GW is, by some standards, the company doing the best in the entire UK. Every "community" i'm in for 40k or AOS - both online and IRL - is booming right now, and some of those live entirely on basement games, or games organised at stores/venues that we aren't part of the "community" for.*

(Except this one. Where people seem to keep leaving. I couldn't say why.)

*A genuine question - if me and a friend arrange a game between ourselves, why is it different if we play it at home than if we turn up to a club or independent store, nod hello to the storekeeper, play our game, and then leave? I find it hard to imagine that weight of numbers alone is that important.

[Cheesegear]

It's interesting to see three different people straining to come up with reasonable interpretations of what Cheesegear is saying when the simple explanation is he's just getting his weekly dose of finding a way to tell people that they're wrong.

1. More people in a community is better than less.
2. More diversity in a community is better than less.
3. More games played is better than less games played.

I don't know you would disagree with that. But okay.

[LeSwordfish]

1. More people in a community is better than less.
2. More diversity in a community is better than less.
3. More games played is better than less games played.

I don't know you would disagree with that. But okay.

You need to explain these things though. My favourite communities are small and close-knit. I won't disagree with diversity in principle but I can't imagine you'll get any particularly useful diversity by forcing small communities together: you'll have a plenty "diverse" playerbase if you make my play-whatever-you-have-painted-in-open-play friends merge with GT winners but I can't imagine the average amount of fun people have will go up. And to return to an old adage of D&D, no game is better than bad game.

[Cheesegear]

Also, the hobby in general seems to be doing fine.

Disagree...But I'm living in AU...

the company doing the best in the entire UK.

...Which I think is the major difference between us. And I'm pretty sure I see where you're coming from, now. Pretty sure I could probably go back and delete all my posts because we've been coming at it from fundamentally different viewpoints.

Me and LansXero already went through this with Avaris. A viewpoint coming from the UK is vastly different from mine, down here in Aus.

Say no more.
I get it. My view will always be fundamentally different to anyone's from the UK.

I really need to check people's locations if they've got it turned on.
I'm mad at myself, if it helps (I know it doesn't)

[Requizen]

And to return to an old adage of D&D, no game is better than bad game.

Is it though? No game means that the store is empty. A new player walking in buying stuff has no one to talk to, no learning games to play, no discussion to be had. No game means that the games that do get played start getting very same-y and stagnant (this is the meta speaking). No game means that people decide to go play other games, and the armies you used to play against are now on eBay.

Bad games give learning experiences, allow you to see where the weaknesses in your army are, let you and your opponent discuss the game. If the person is a **** and just wants to roll dice and laugh when you take off models... that's a bad person, not a bad game, and that's a completely different discussion.

[LCP]

1. More people in a community is better than less.
2. More diversity in a community is better than less.
3. More games played is better than less games played.

Even taken for granted, none of those things make it true that someone not participating is hurting the enjoyment of others.

It's trivially true that if everyone stays home and plays with mates then clubs etc. go under. The point that's clearly untrue (and also, insane) is the idea that people owe their communities every second of their gaming time and are actively hurting them if they withhold any of it. That's not a hobby club, that's a cult.

Whatever community you're trying to build, people don't owe you their time unless you're paying them a wage. It doesn't matter if the hobby in question is toy soldiers or music or competitive basket-weaving, people's time is their own, and the onus is on the community to be a place that people want to spend their time. That's a simple fact, it's much more important than any wittering about 'metas', and it's the obvious reason (not regional differences or any such convenient get-out) that your post is attracting objection and ridicule.

[LeSwordfish]

Is it though? No game means that the store is empty.

I feel like I'm repeating this to the point of coming across a bit selfish, but that's the store's problem, not mine. And not necessarily: the only condition in which that's true is when there's only two players in the store, with differing philosophies, and nobody else at all. You could make the equal argument that GW should only ever make one game because what if one of the people in the shop only plays AOS and one only plays 40k?

(This has illuminated me a bit on why some people here are so vehemently against the smaller games like Apocalypse, Kill Team, etc. If people only play those, and only play those outside the shop, then I see why it might cause a split in the community. I just don't really think "people only play one game and never anything else" comes up very much. Not many people around here play Kill Team, but I really enjoy having it as a tool to take out of the box for smaller games.)

[LansXero]

Also, the hobby in general seems to be doing fine. Perhaps this is a tragedy of the commons issue and if everyone behaved the way i'm advocating we'd be in trouble, but GW is, by some standards, the company doing the best in the entire UK. Every "community" i'm in for 40k or AOS - both online and IRL - is booming right now, and some of those live entirely on basement games, or games organised at stores/venues that we aren't part of the "community" for.*

Maybe its a cultural thing. D&D here for example is 'dead', in so far as if you just find out about it there is nobody to play it with. Its all closed cliques and home groups, and store games always devolve into 'I cant make next session, can we play at my place during the weekend?'. Sure, they have no obligation to 'keep it alive', but its no less dead because of the lack of guilt.

*A genuine question - if me and a friend arrange a game between ourselves, why is it different if we play it at home than if we turn up to a club or independent store, nod hello to the storekeeper, play our game, and then leave? I find it hard to imagine that weight of numbers alone is that important.

Non-gamers dont believe anyone would spend so much time, money and effort on this junk. They find the concept of it alien, until they see people enjoying themselves over cool terrain with nice models. You might not think much of it, but we've had people from Magic, Board Games or just passerbys join in and try the game due to watching others play. Considering where we are, thats huge.

Whatever community you're trying to build, people don't owe you their time unless you're paying them a wage. It doesn't matter if the hobby in question is toy soldiers or music or competitive basket-weaving, people's time is their own, and the onus is on the community to be a place that people want to spend their time. That's a simple fact, it's much more important than any wittering about 'metas', and it's the obvious reason (not regional differences or any such convenient get-out) that your post is attracting objection and ridicule.

I dont know about Cheese, and nobody probably cares about my opinion, but what Im advocating is that self-exiled players give their local communities a chance. They of course have no obligation to do so and their local offerings might all suck, but plenty of store owners are not malicious or greedy, just completely clueless. Its both surprising and a little insulting to me how people with stores 4 or 6 times larger than mine and a monthly spending power that equals my yearly budget still dont know pretty basic things or fail at simple challenges. Almost nobody who opens a game store does it with any business background or finantial preparation, half of them do it out of willingness to serve their community, the others because they cant keep a normal job and would rather have their addiction feed them instead of them keeping it fed. So they probably can do better, but I feel everyone would be better served if those currently unatracted by whats on offer would come out and say why.

Its very sad to see genuinely well intentioned initiatives die stillbirthed due to people's preconceived notions of stores as their enemies.

[Cheesegear]

Even taken for granted, none of those things make it true that someone not participating is hurting the enjoyment of others.

It has the potential to. Depending on what, when and how you play. If someone wants to play you, or what you have. You deciding not to play them definitely could hurt their enjoyment. Which is the question I posed earlier.

The point that's clearly untrue (and also, insane) is the idea that people owe their communities every second of their gaming time

If it can stay alive without their participation? Then who cares what they do. They can do what they want to do.

Just realised that I still haven't written that Chaos Daemons Guide.

[LCP]

If it can stay alive without their participation? Then who cares what they do. They can do what they want to do.

And if it can't, that's not their fault. They don't owe it to you or to anyone else to make your club work. Your club dies out, turns out there wasn't enough interest. Bad luck. Move on. Blaming, guilting or shaming people for not spending their precious free time supporting the thing that you like is toxic and abusive behaviour. It's fine to want a community to grow and thrive - you should make that happen by making it a cool place to be, not by bullying people into attendance.

"They can do what they want to do" isn't conditionally true, it's the starting point for any healthy interaction with another human being.

[Thragka]

It's not the player's obligation to keep the game alive at all, just as it's not the consumer's obligation to keep the industry alive.

Also, you're the very person who said choosing not to play someone shouldn't be seen as a personal insult. But now it is?

[Destro_Yersul]

The problem for me is that the closest store I could play at is probably 45 minutes away at best. Actually going out is a serious time investment with no guarantee anyone to play will be there, because my schedule precludes my going out on weekends.

[Cheesegear]

And if it can't, that's not their fault. They don't owe it to you or to anyone else to make your club work. Your club dies out, turns out there wasn't enough interest.

And that's ****ty.

Blaming, guilting or shaming people for not spending their precious free time supporting the thing that you like is toxic and abusive behaviour.

Why would I do that? It's toy soliders. Do whatever you want.

It's fine to want a community to grow and thrive - you should make that happen by making it a cool place to be, not by bullying people into attendance.

Why would I bully anyone? As I already explained, the best way to give people what they want, is to know what they want, is to talk to them.

Also, you're the very person who said choosing not to play someone shouldn't be seen as a personal insult.

Depends why. If you don't play someone because you don't like them as a person, outside of the game (and you tell them that's why you're not playing) it absolutely is a personal insult.

The problem for me is that the closest store I could play at is probably 45 minutes away at best. Actually going out is a serious time investment with no guarantee anyone to play will be there, because my schedule precludes my going out on weekends.

In which case, playing somewhere other than your house isn't an option, in which case this conversation was never about you.

[LCP]

Why would I do that? It's toy soliders. Do whatever you want.

Even if you want to play at home, don't.

Any time, in which you play at home, where you could instead play at a store, is bad.

You're killing whoever plays in that store's, game. Which, as has been pointed out, you don't care about.

If you're playing 'Beer & Pretzels' in your friends' basement, you're already destroying the hobby anyway.

[Cheesegear]

.gif

So, I guess asking someone to play games and be a part of their community, because it's better for the community, Is guilting or shaming?

Man, your bar is low.

[Avaris]

So, I guess asking someone to play games and be a part of their community, because it's better for the community, Is guilting or shaming?

Man, your bar is low.

It’s fine to tell someone it is good to play as part of their community. You’re right: it’s important to the health of the hobby.

The guilting and shaming comes when you’re saying that by not doing so they’re ‘destroying’ the hobby or any of the other things you’ve said.

Build up. Tell them why it’s important. Don’t tear down.

Edit: clearly, you don’t say that in person. But this is ALSO a community. And you’re saying it here.

[Thragka]

Depends why. If you don't play someone because you don't like them as a person, outside of the game (and you tell them that's why you're not playing) it absolutely is a personal insult.

This is laughably irrelevant to your attempted substantiation of the claim that someone not participating is hurting the enjoyment of others.

[LCP]

Telling people that they're 'destroying the hobby', that they don't care about their local communities, and that their actions are simply 'bad' is quite clearly those things. It took me a minute to dig up the quotes but I've edited them into the previous post.

Of course, you will now say that you didn't mean all those guilting/shaming statements in a negative way, you were just expressing some kind of abstract sentiment of generalised oh-no-ness as a neutral observer. To which I say, pull the other one, it's got bells on. And I think that concludes another fun Cheesegear adventure.

[Cheesegear]

"Hey man, you and your brother play at your house? How often do you play? Cool. Hey, on Saturday, you should see if your brother can come here and we'll throw down a few games, and we'll get you to meet a few people, and you'll get a bunch of games in, and it should be fun. The more games you play, the better it'll be as you get to know everyone. You should make friends pretty fast."

So guilted.

OH NO WAIT. I'M A ROBOT AND NOT A PERSON. AND OTHER PEOPLE, ARE ALSO NOT PEOPLE. I FORGOT.

"Hey! You. Play games with us on Saturday or you're a bad person 'cause you definitely want our community to die and for the space to close down and everyone's games to be ruined. Yep. That's you. All because you play in your house."

"Hey man, you and your brother play at your house? How often do you play? Cool. Hey, on Saturday, you should see if your brother can come here and we'll throw down a few games, and we'll get you to meet a few people, and you'll get a bunch of games in, and it should be fun. The more games you play, the better it'll be as you get to know everyone. You should make friends pretty fast."

So guilted.

OH NO WAIT. I'M A ROBOT AND NOT A PERSON. AND OTHER PEOPLE, ARE ALSO NOT PEOPLE. I FORGOT.

"Hey! You. Play games with us on Saturday or you're a bad person 'cause you definitely want our community to die and for the space to close down and everyone's games to be ruined. Yep. That's you. All because you play in your house."

"Hey man, you and your brother play at your house? How often do you play? Cool. Hey, on Saturday, you should see if your brother can come here and we'll throw down a few games, and we'll get you to meet a few people, and you'll get a bunch of games in, and it should be fun. The more games you play, the better it'll be as you get to know everyone. You should make friends pretty fast."

So guilted.

OH NO WAIT. I'M A ROBOT AND NOT A PERSON. AND OTHER PEOPLE, ARE ALSO NOT PEOPLE. I FORGOT.

"Hey! You. Play games with us on Saturday or you're a bad person 'cause you definitely want our community to die and for the space to close down and everyone's games to be ruined. Yep. That's you. All because you play in your house."

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

Ok, but you DID say "if you play at home you're destroying the hobby." Here. This is real life. We're real people on the other side of these monitors that you're accusing of playing so wrong that we're ruining Warhammer. We got justifiably upset at that accusation. Don't pretend like it doesn't count because if it were in person you'd dress it up nicely, that just means that you feel free to a be a **** to us because you don't have to see our faces.

Edit: also re: the "if you want to play, buy new models" stuff, where people come in with a list of models and ask what they can do with it: I can't often afford to buy new models. What I have is what I CAN get, so if your only response is "buy new models or don't bother", you're basically just telling me "you should quit the hobby, rich people only." How about when someone says "this is what I got, how do I make it work the best I can within these restraints?" you actually work within the question? That response always got me so mad, because it's so blindered by classism.

[LeSwordfish]

Either you're constantly moderating your statements after people call you out on them, in which case you are being a ****, or you consistently state your moderate beliefs on the most obnoxious way possible for no reason. I remember once a while ago you proudly announced that you punched someone in the head over a game of warhammer, and then when people called you out you PM'd me with a much more reasonable reason to hit someone. (In as much as such a thing exists.) What is your investment in presenting the worst side of yourself?

(Also choosing not to hang out with someone you dislike isnt a personal insult. That's just a sensible way to live your life.)