Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground C

[Vincent Dragon]

Nobody thought of Spelldancer for Metamagic shenanigans? It is 3.0 but shares Dodge and Mobility as required feats with Swiftblade.

I was thinking about it, but scrapped the idea when I realized Perpetual Options arguably made it worse (an extra attack at highest bonus on two or three full attacks is usually going to be better than a third or fourth full attack without the extra attack) unless I went for a probably wrong cheese reading where I got the extra standard on every full attack for unlimited Shadow Pouncing.

You can use a magic weapon with "Speed" special ability to add 1 or Persisted Sakkratar's Triple Strike to add 2 extra attacks at full base attack bonus that doesn't stack with Haste's extra attack, which is no problem since Perpetual Options swaps Haste's extra attack for an extra action!

[Efrate]

Thought of spelldancer but if you want the most out of the SI it really limits options. Spelldancer requires 4 feats, plus 3rd level spells, and to get the most out of it you want minimum 2 metamagic feats in extend and persist. So 6 feats. That is a lot to grab.

[Zaq]

I was toying with a shadowcraft mage, with the joke being that I only knew how to cast two spells (silent image and haste), but shadowcraft mage ended up overwhelming swiftblade.

[Hiro Quester]

I also considered spelldancer a few ways. It’s excellent if you are going the persistomancy route. Persisting Hunter’s Eye on an unseen seer can augment a sneak attack swiftblade well. But it does eat up feats you need to do something original. And it’s been done.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I was thinking about it, but scrapped the idea when I realized Perpetual Options arguably made it worse (an extra attack at highest bonus on two or three full attacks is usually going to be better than a third or fourth full attack without the extra attack) unless I went for a probably wrong cheese reading where I got the extra standard on every full attack for unlimited Shadow Pouncing.

Hmm, could work if you added Totemist 2 for standard and move action teleports. Perpetual Options then gives you a full extra full-attack. Something like Totemist 7/ Teflammar Shadowlord 4/ Swiftblade 9. Kind of wastes the extra casting, though.

[Piggy Knowles]

I toyed with a spelldancer but didn't like how it pretty much locked you in 100% to a very specific build.

I also played a bit with a minionmancer, under the idea that a character who spams haste likes having lots of warm bodies on the field to benefit from that. I had a build stub I liked that used a savage bard with Greenbound Summoning and Green Ear to buff her summons, and with diligent rapidity to move through the walls of thorns her monsters created.

I got a bit stuck on how to make Spring Attack work well, though, and while I was thinking about it I had another idea that I liked more. I was hoping to maybe do two entries, but it wasn't really in the cards for me...

[WhamBamSam]

Hmm, could work if you added Totemist 2 for standard and move action teleports. Perpetual Options then gives you a full extra full-attack. Something like Totemist 7/ Teflammar Shadowlord 4/ Swiftblade 9. Kind of wastes the extra casting, though.

The problem wasn't getting the standard/move/swift teleports. I was pretty confident I could do that. The problem was that three full attacks in a round with an extra attack from Haste was going to be better than 3 full attacks in a round without that extra attack, plus an extra full attack from a Perpetual Options Shadow Pounce. If, as Vincent Dragon says, I could get the extra attack on each full attack that doesn't stack with Haste from items, then something like PsyRogue 1/Monk 2/Totemist 2/Hit-and-Run Sneak Attack Fighter 1/Warblade 1/Shadowlord 4/Swiftblade 9 (qualify for Shadowlord with Lesser Mark of Passage or Catalogues of Enlightenment, swift teleports via Hidden Talent (Dimension Hop)) is decent, though it doesn't get that much out of Swiftblade until the 4th full attack comes online.

[MinimanMidget]

I was trying to use Death Master's 3/4 BAB to get into Swiftblade a level earlier than standard entry, but it was hampered by only having Haste via Arcane Disciple, and I couldn't really make it do anything interesting.

Still, it did amuse me from the PoV that sacrificing everything to get into Swiftblade as fast as possible seems like a very Swiftblade-ish thing to do.

[Hiro Quester]

Still, it did amuse me from the PoV that sacrificing everything to get into Swiftblade as fast as possible seems like a very Swiftblade-ish thing to do.

I had a build idea similar to this POV. The idea was to play it as a speed addict. After being the recipient of a haste spell, he does everything he do can to get that speedy feeling again. Scrolls, offering “services” to wizards. Cast haste himself as early as possible, then swiftblade ASAP.

And role play this as a speed addiction. He is irritable and distracted and impatient all the time, unless hasted. No planning. All live-in-the-moment. Only when hasted can he plan, think clearly, act with grace and skill, etc. He is graceful and charming when hasted, and clumsy and grouchy when not hasted.

But I couldn’t think of anything other than kobold sorcerer to build this on. And the roleplaying flavor of a kobold haste addict just wasn’t enough to carry that through any interesting build that hadn’t been done before.

I'm surprised that haste addiction wasn’t a theme in more builds, to be honest. Persephone vowing to not do any “H” around her parents, and Pahika obsessively buying wands and scrolls until she can cast it herself, are the only ones that even hint at it, as I recall.

((Note: I recognize that speed addiction isn’t funny IRL. But this is roleplaying. Pacts with demons, worshipping a god of slaughter, or being a murderhobo aren’t that funny IRL either.))

[WhamBamSam]

I was trying to use Death Master's 3/4 BAB to get into Swiftblade a level earlier than standard entry, but it was hampered by only having Haste via Arcane Disciple, and I couldn't really make it do anything interesting.

Still, it did amuse me from the PoV that sacrificing everything to get into Swiftblade as fast as possible seems like a very Swiftblade-ish thing to do.

I played with Death Master entry as well, but it turns out there are no evil deities with the Time domain, so since your alignment has to match your deity's for Arcane Disciple, you can't actually qualify. I think I might've found one Celerity option, can't remember offhand, but since that delays entry to level 7, it defeats the point anyway.

[Heliomance]

I played with Death Master entry as well, but it turns out there are no evil deities with the Time domain, so since your alignment has to match your deity's for Arcane Disciple, you can't actually qualify. I think I might've found one Celerity option, can't remember offhand, but since that delays entry to level 7, it defeats the point anyway.

Alignment changes could handle that, though probably with an elegance penalty. I forget, does having the [Evil] subtype allow you to count as evil for prereqs even if you're not?

[Gauntlet]

I was thinking about doing something with Primal Scholar to recur Hastes using Secret of Power, but getting to 6th level slots would require levels in Legacy Champion or similar as well which I wasn't able to get to fit with Innervated Speed.

[RaiKirah]

Alignment changes could handle that, though probably with an elegance penalty. I forget, does having the [Evil] subtype allow you to count as evil for prereqs even if you're not?

Not sure, but Heretic if the Faith could do the trick

[Venger]

Alignment changes could handle that, though probably with an elegance penalty. I forget, does having the [Evil] subtype allow you to count as evil for prereqs even if you're not?

Since the succubus paladin counts as all 4, I think it does.

Not sure, but Heretic if the Faith could do the trick

It could, but it'd be easier to just change your alignment from death master since there's no verbiage on ex-death masters

[Hiro Quester]

The Persephone build uses Heretic of the Faith to get haste as a domain spell on a cleric of Hextor/ordained champion nar demonbinder. But that and arcane disciple is feat-heavy. Persephone uses OCs bonus feats to solve that problem.

[WhamBamSam]

Not sure, but Heretic if the Faith could do the trick

Heretic of the Faith requires you be a divine caster, and also makes one feat too many for a Human Death Master 5 to qualify.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Alignment changes could handle that, though probably with an elegance penalty. I forget, does having the [Evil] subtype allow you to count as evil for prereqs even if you're not?

It does. I don't have the citation to hand but I'm quite certain of it.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Alignment changes could handle that, though probably with an elegance penalty. I forget, does having the [Evil] subtype allow you to count as evil for prereqs even if you're not?

Makes you count as evil for all "effects". SRD being helpfully precise as always. Considering class levels to be an "effect" is a little sketchy... but technically legal! (The best kind of legal).

[Seerow]

I really love some of these builds. If I had entered, it would have been with a spin on an old favorite character of mine (Wizard into runesmith into Swiftblade to be a dwarf running around with 70ft move speed in dwarven stone plate just baffling everybody), but the idea just honestly isn't that original and I didn't feel was worth doing.

Meanwhile, I am reading through these entries... my favorites are all of the really unusual entries. Particularly F.A.S.T. (seriously, a truenamer? And it's functional? What?!), Caelum (I love the use of Wyrm Wizard to enter with such low level Duskblade casting, and focusing on Warlock EB shenanigans instead), Glozar Dunal (Anima Mage into Swiftblade is a combination I never would have considered, but the binding adds a fair bit of flexibility and gishiness that just works), and Socko (honestly I have almost no idea how this character functions, and had never heard of the race, but I love the slightly creepy vibe and debuffing focus of the build).

I was also surprised at the number of beguiler entries. It's not an entry I would have even considered personally, so it was an interesting take for me.

[Hiro Quester]

The anima mage’s binding is fun. Lots of gishy options there. The Vestige Metamagic ability to apply 1/day Metamagic at the cost of only 5 rounds without access to the bound vestige, is interesting. I had never looked at the class before, so never noticed that as a source of Metamagic shenanigans.

It doesn’t seem to matter, as written, which Metamagic you use. So persistent spell without raising the level. That is awesome. Esp if you can use it on higher level spells that are not normally persistable. Persistent shapechange!!

Though using it to persist a haste spell seems like it should not work. It’s normally only for personal spells. Is there a trick to persisting haste we should know about? It seems like swiftblade would of course want to do that (a few builds here are examples). But I don’t see how that’s possible without some tricks I don’t understand yet.

Edit: I’m also intrigued by the anima mage ability to give up an ability from binding, in exchange for an extra spell of any level. That’s useful, since most vestiges supply at least one meh ability it would be worth trading.

[Efrate]

Its a bit of a stretch but vestigal metamagic lets you apply "any metamagic you know to a spell you cast this round. " it doesnt spell out anything like "that you normally could". Shaky at best but an argument can be made.

[Hiro Quester]

Yeah. It does seem a stretch though, to apply metamagic to a spell that metamagic feat explicitly cannot apply to. Persisting a level 4+ spell seems legit. The normal constraint of adding +6 levels is a problem for lack of 9+ level spells., not because of the feat’s rules.

But persisting a spell that isn’t personal or fixed range, when the feat is explicitly limited to such spells, seems to be pushing it.

[RaiKirah]

Ocular Spell is the typical way to persist most things, with Spellguard of Silverymoon shenanigans a close second if I recall correctly (never done this myself).

[Hiro Quester]

Ocular Spell is the typical way to persist most things, with Spellguard of Silverymoon shenanigans a close second if I recall correctly (never done this myself).

Hmmm....

Spellguard can cast a personal range spell on another as a touch spell. I don’t see how that enables you to persist normally non-persistable spells.

Ah.... ocular spells makes a non-personal range spell into a ray of 60 feet, thus a fixed-range spell, and that is then a valid target for persist? Can you hit yourself with a ray spell?

Or are these both enabling you to persist spells cast on other folks?

either way, I don’t see these abilities being usable for builds like Glozar to persist a haste spell.

[RaiKirah]

Spellguard can cast a personal range spell on another as a touch spell. I don’t see how that enables you to persist normally non-persistable spells.

Ah.... ocular spells makes a non-personal range spell into a ray of 60 feet, thus a fixed-range spell, and that is then a valid target for persist? Can you hit yourself with a ray spell?

Or are these both enabling you to persist spells cast on other folks?

either way, I don’t see these abilities being usable for builds like Glozar to persist a haste spell.

Ocular Spell makes spells a fixed range (ray 60') and thus Persist-able (So Haste would be Persist-able). Consensus seems to be that you can point at yourself and hit with a Ray spell. With Spellguard you can then persist personal spells on allies, but yeah, I don't think Spellguard helps you persist on yourself unless I've forgotten something about the combo.

[daremetoidareyo]

Ocular Spell makes spells a fixed range (ray 60') and thus Persist-able (So Haste would be Persist-able). Consensus seems to be that you can point at yourself and hit with a Ray spell. With Spellguard you can then persist personal spells on allies, but yeah, I don't think Spellguard helps you persist on yourself unless I've forgotten something about the combo.

Couldn't you just shoot your familiar and then have the familiar share it with you?

[Akal Saris]

Hey everyone! I just wanted to pop into the thread to say congratulations to all the chefs participating in Iron Chef and making sure that it's still running strong all this time! And thank you to Heliomance for organizing the contest :)

Btw, speaking of persisted spells, one of my favorite combos for Swiftblade is the Spell Dancer prestige class. The prereqs and flavor both match well, and you can build a gish with tons of persisted spells by ECL 11 or so :) For example, Fire Elf Wiz 6/Swiftblade 9/Spelldancer 2/Abjurant Champion 3 would work as a build, though I think it would need a flaw to get Aerenei Focus for skills proficiency in dance.

[jdizzlean]

i'd considered a wand wielder entry into swiftblade, and abusing that mechanic, however after my initial build, i both ran out of time, and brain power to make it work. i also think i needed a few more levels to get it all in how i was thinking. having recently read up on warforged, that seemed a fun route to take, and the fluff would've been interesting, but no steam left for a second entry

[Hiro Quester]

i also think i needed a few more levels to get it all in how i was thinking

That describes the common problem with Swiftblade, I think. there are so many fun things it would combine with. But to make that an interesting combination you need a couple more levels. Swiftblade 9 and 10 are the sweet spot in most builds. But combining them with other flavors often meant you get swiftblade 10 at 21 level.

[The Viscount]

Hey guys, sorry to disappoint but I'm still working on judgings (current status 1.1/14) and won't realistically have time to pick back up until the end of the week. I'm still going to finish, it just might take a little while.