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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    On reassigning DNLA for creatures with epic numbers of RHD

    When I first started this thread, I thought (and apparently many people from the LA assignment thread with me) that applying a DNLA to creatures with more than 20 RHD would allow them to keep their epic feats (1 per three RHD above 20, starting at 21), to the point of allowing epic feats in a non-epic environment if the DNLA was too high. This is the main reason was negative LA was not considered for a long time in the main thread.

    However, page 25 of the Epic Level Handbook explicitates that "a creature with a level adjustment of +5 who is also [...] ECL 21 [is] eligible to
    select an epic feat provided he meets the prerequisites.". The [Epic] subtype takes level adjustment into account, and no amount of negative LA should introduce epic feats below ECL 20.

    This has two consequences: first, I can assign DNLA even to creatures like the Colossal Animated Object without a second thought, and second, epic creatures to which I have assigned DNLA in fact have a lower amount of epic feats. For example, I have assigned DLA-23 to the Tarrasque, considering it had 9 epic feats for its 48 RHD. However, it should only have 2 epic feats, since it is ECL 25. Now, epic feats are not incredibly good (except the spellcasting and item creation ones), but they are still generally better than equivalent regular feats, hence, this reduction in power should be reflected in the creature's DNLA. It's also important to note that class levels and class features are more important around the 20th level mark and above than they are at lower ECL, so when a full BAB RHD by itself could be worth 1/4 or 1/3 of a class level at low-levels, it might only be worth 1/5 or 1/6 at low-epic levels, bringing little more than a third of a feat and a bonus to saves.

    The Tarrasque is the greatest offender, losing 7 epic feats, but I also feel like it was quite strong at ECL 25, so I'll just reduce it by one, to ECL 24. DLA-24.
    Without epic feats, the Greater Cadaver Collector would have a hard time competing even against the high level nonepic characters. DLA-16, ECL 19
    The Elder Odopi doesn't have to change, it was already probably quite (too?) strong at ECL 21 if you allow for Multitasking cheese.
    The Nightcrawler wouldn't change much by losing an epic feat and probably would even choose more regular than epic feats.
    Most of the true dragons' power in DNLA comes from their great kind of RHD, the increased DC they get for their breath and Frightful Presence, as well as their archetype. Gaining or losing a few epic feats changes next to nothing.


    Let's now consider creatures that I refrained from assigning DNLA to, that will hence not gain any epic feat as is:
    Colossal Animated Object: Construct RHD are bad, and no ability scales, except maybe Trample. DLA-18 (assuming an item with no hand, but with hardness and wheels and/or non-prehensile "limbs"
    Greater and Elder Elementals: They generally have one or two scaling abilities, but have only one good save and medium BAB.
    G. Air: DLA-6, E. Air: DLA-9
    G. Earth: DLA-8, E. Earth: DLA-11
    G. Fire: DLA-9, E. Fire: DLA-12
    G. Water: DLA-9, E. Water: DLA-12
    Greater Stone Golem: You f**king donkey! Still better than the colossal animated object, and its Slow DC gains from DNLA. DLA-26, and only because 14 feats is a LOT. It should be ashamed.
    Kraken: Moar tentacles, moar Scorpion's Grasps! DLA-4
    Nightwalker: Slightly better than its brethrens, DLA-3
    Colossal Vermin: Yo, I herd u liek poison! A higher DC for the deadly poison of colossal vermin cannot be overstated. Centipede: DLA-14, Spider: DLA-20, Scorpion: DLA-27



    To be continued next time for the dragons and MM3!

    By the way, I didn't know, but the ELH has given "official" cohort level adjustment to a few monsters by including them in the Epic Leadership feat, notably all true dragons got a level adjustment of +8, which is similar but different from what we could see in Dragon #293, which gave them an ECL of RHD+5. Then again, Dragon #293 gave the same +5 to all age categories, contrary to the final 3.5 level adjustments which varied depending on the age category. Really, the ELH did almost as much as Savage Species for our noble monster-playing cause, although the fact that the Glabrezu and the roc are both considered suitable as ECL 23, higher than a freaking Astral Deva at ECL 20, should inherently confort us in the necessity of our enterprise.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 04:57 PM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  2. - Top - End - #422
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Yaaay! More DNLA!

    Dragons

    How did I do that the first time around!? They are so hard to rate! How much are 2 sorcerer levels worth compared to one fighter feat from a sovereign archetype, +4 Str and the BAB and saves of a dragon RHD? What about a Xorvintaal power, is that enough? Anyway, I'm quite happy with these results, at least they look self-consistent. Also changed a few RHDR entries, I wasn't fully comfortable with rating Blue and Green at the same level considering Blue has a higher sorcerer level, despite being overall mediocre. And since the original thread grouped them by color and this thread by age category, let's sort them by LA now!

    DLA-3: Adult Bronze
    DLA-4: Adult Silver, Adult Red, Adult Gold, Mature Brass, Mature Copper, Mature Bronze
    DLA-5: Adult Blue, Mature Silver, Mature Red, Mature Gold
    DLA-6: Mature White, Mature Black, Mature Green, Mature Blue, Old Brass, Old Copper
    DLA-7: Old Green, Old Blue
    DLA-8: Old White, Old Black
    DLA-9: Very Old White, Very Old Black, Very Old Green
    DLA-10: Ancient White

    Monster Manual III

    Battlebriar, 25 RHD: More feats for your grappling/lockdown fighter. Apart from that, nothing interesting. DLA-10
    Brood Keeper, 22 RHD: Full BAB on a beatstick, and better DC for your excellent Fear ability. Sure, I'd play that at DLA-6
    Larva Swarm, 22 RHD: Uuugh. Swarms do not scale well. And full BAB do not help them. At least this one has SR. DLA-13, I guess. Good luck to your DM to find encounters to challenge that enormous mass of HP with SR and Evasion and to not make you feel useless 90% of the time.
    Charnel Hound, 21 RHD: Oh, yeah, Undead RHD on a beatstick, always fun. At least it has Unholy Toughness, SR and Frightful Presence to take advantage of DNLA. DLA-8
    Battletitan, 36 RHD: Hahahahaha! DLA-20
    Storm Elemental, 21 and 24 RHD: Greater: DLA-6, Elder: DLA-8
    Geriviar, 26 RHD: Geriviar hit harder. Geriviar strongest there is! DLA-9
    Death Giant, 23 RHD: Still the best giant around. Love the lore and variety of abilities. DLA-6
    Eldritch Giant, 25 RHD: Sadly doesn't scale too well, but is still really strong. DLA-7

    And here we are! Next week, we start the book of Bad Latin with the Angel of Decay!
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  3. - Top - End - #423
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    I'm a bit disappointed that nobody told me that the next book was the Expanded Psionics Handbook, not the Libris Mortis. Anyway, here are the Astral Constructs!

    Astral Constructs (level 3 to 9)


    Aaah, the astral constructs! Known for having natural armor and stats waaay above their weight class, and being close to the perfect meat Ectoplasmshield for shaper psions, as well as the main reason for choosing this discipline in the first place. They have relatively low HD, high speed and the ability to choose a number of special abilities from a large list, going from a flight speed to Pounce, Power Resistance or the ability to dimension slide at will by a move action. On the other hand, they have no intelligence, and generally are quite small, which means low HP for a construct. Still, I have no idea why Inevitability ever considered giving +0 to the level 1 astral construct, considering construct immunities and +5 natural armor with no ECL cost. Maybe I'm a bit biased, but when literally everybody in the original thread told Inevitability that his estimations were too low, I feel like I'm pretty justified in my feelings.

    For this post, I will consider that the Astral Constructs are created with a craft (sculpting) above 20, which means they are an accurate representation of a type of creature, including hands with opposable thumbs. It was quite unclear in the original thread. They also have no feat augmentation to give them other abilities, and are of course considered to last longer than 20 rounds.

    All levels of astral constructs have of course no Con or Int, +0 Wis and Cha, and Dex depending on their size, with +4 for the Medium constructs (2-4th levels), +2 for the Large ones (5-8), and +0 for the Huge one (9th level). Each level also gains +4 Str compared to the previous one. You could say that's the same as Animated Objects, hence really bad, but Animated Objects double their RHD at each stage and end with 28 Str, while the Astral Construct only gain 1-3 RHD per stage, end with 43 Str, and have other special abilities.

    Level 3, 3 RHD, +10 Str, +8 natural, Medium: No, seriously, what the hell is that natural armor. Even the shield guardian has natural armor similar to its HD, not almost three times as much. Also, high strength and a slam with +1.5 Str to damage. The ability from Menu A is probably the 20ft fly speed, or a bonus feat. I'm a bit torn here, as I think it will be pretty strong, maybe too strong as a beatstick with 2 RHD, but very weak with 3 RHD. Still, I'll go with 3 RHD, DLA-0.

    Level 4, 5 RHD, +14 Str, +10 natural, Medium: Large is good, and you get an ability from Menu B, which will probably be Pounce, Improved Grab, or both flight and Power Attack. Basically, if the "rage uses Cha instead of Con" applies to constructs as well as undead, take the ability that your barbarian totem doesn't give you. If construct barbarians just have a 3 round rage, then simply take Pounce and find something else for flight. Much stronger than level 3, but overall the difference is mostly the bit of strength and the ability. Probably enough for one more RHD, but it will be kinda weak, and I think DNLA would be a slightly better choice here. Weak 4 RHD, DLA-1

    Level 5, 7 RHD, +18 Str, +13 natural, Large: Basically like level 4 with one more size category and a bit more strength. The astral construct gains one more slam attack and DR 5/magic at a point where it is still pretty relevant. Probably be a very weak 5 RHD, DLA-2 as well. Damn it, these are all at the edge of being worth one RHD less!

    Level 6, 10 RHD, +22 Str, +15 natural, Large: Finally, only more strength and natural armor (and DR 10/magic). Definitely a kinda strong 5 RHD, DLA-4. It's weird giving such a low rating to something with more than 30 Str, but there's just... not much else.

    Level 7, 13 RHD, +24 Str, +17 natural, Large: Hmmm... Why only +2 Strength? It's the only level where this happens. Oh well, menu C ability, boys! Natural Invisibility, Power Resistance 10+HD, Dimension Slide at will, or both Pounce and Fast Healing 2. Pretty great selection here. Notably, Power Resistance combined with sky-high natural armor means you'll be very hard to take down, while being able to use weapons. Hard enough for 7 RHD? Eeeeh, I'm not quite sure. Probably. Let's go with that. Pretty weak 7 RHD, DLA-5

    Level 8, 16 RHD, +28 Str, +19 natural, Large: I want you to look at this Str score. Nevermind giants, there are Great Wyrms with a lower strength than this lump of ectoplasm brought into existence by a 15th level psion. I'm still not sure how it would fare in combat, but decent mobility, great defense and hard hitting generally make for a good battlefield controller. 8 RHD, DLA-6.

    Level 9, 19 RHD, +32 Str, +25 natural, Huge: And here comes the ultimate ectoplasm construct. +6 natural armor, more strength than a Red Wyrm, Huge size and reach, and two abilities from the menu C. Power Resistance, Pounce and Fast Healing 2? Yeah, probably. 9 RHD, DLA-7


    Well, what a start for XPH. Or, well, not really the start, since there was the psionic Aboleth before, but the XPH has a surprisingly low number of LA-0 (19/43 monsters), so we'll be through it in no time! Anyway, see you next time for one of the greatest animals to ever live: the Brain Mole!
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
    Nice find! Have a cookie!
    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  4. - Top - End - #424
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here





    ... Pfft... Hah... Hahahahaha! No, really, I find the 1e art hilarious. It's just a star-nosed mole, but you can make everything psionic by drawing lots of zigzag lines around it!

    The Brain Mole is a Magical Psionic Beast whose only interesting part is feeding on psionic energy. For this, it uses its Power Leech PLA, slowly draining power points from its "prey". Its strategy is pretty clear: come close to an unsuspecting psionic creature, detected using Detect Psionics, while staying hidden with its great Hide bonus and Hide Mind, then use Power Leech and immediately burrow 5ft into the ground (what? No reason 5ft-steps cannot be taken vertically) to be safe while siphoning power points for a few rounds before the psionic creatures goes away or finds it. If someone becomes really dangerous and it can't just run away, it will instead use Aversion to be able to flee without being immediately in danger. This is quite the consistent and well-rounded tactics for an animal, and that is a good world-building monster. However, it is in no way a challenge, to litterally anybody. It's slow, and has no actual means of attacking. It's a nice pet for your resident Psion NPC, but probably won't be making an appearance anytime soon. You know what? I'm adding one to my campaign this instant. Just a nearly blind mole emerging in the psionic PC's room. I predict that it will either become a pet or die an horrible death before the end of the session.

    Interestingly, in 1e, the cascade flu was a simple insanity inflicted when the brain mole tried to Power Leech a creature with no psionic ability because they had either an active power manifested on them or a psionic item and so were positive to Detect Psionics. This is quite a nice interaction, and makes much more sense than a bite-transmitted disease. Brain Moles shouldn't even bite anyone, since they feed exclusively on psionic energy. In fact, I'm half-convinced that Power Leech was created specifically for Brain Moles, since the whole "once triggered, you keep losing power points until you get out of the area or stop the user from concentrating" is how the Brain Mole's "brain burrowing" works since 1st edition. It would explain why this power is so absurdly bad (4th level for 1d6 PP per round, seriously??), because it was never intended for PCs to use it.

    This change however, opens the can-o'-worms that is the cascade flu. It's a mental disease that makes it so that once you start manifesting something, you automatically use all your power points in the following rounds, manifesting one power, then 2, then 3, and so on, all that without costing actions. Now, it's usually pretty bad (you can only last one fight per day, and you can't control either the powers used or the target, which means that in general you're gonna blast yourself with some of your worst powers and die before your cascade is finished. But if you're a Naberius Binder/Psychic Warrior with the Body Fuel feat, and you only know self-buff powers, you can use it to manifest several powers per round for the price of one single action at the beginning of combat, then use Body Fuel+Naberius to recover slowly all your power points before the next fight. Something like PsyWar 7 with Empathic Feedback, Hustle, Body Adjustment, Dissolving Touch/Animal Affinity, Prevenom, Adrenaline Boost and Claws of the Beast may be interesting. However, it heavily depends on your party composition, as there's no way the Brain Mole is going into melee with a racial -4 to Con and -8 to Str, so I'll ignore it for now.


    - Magical Beast, 1 RHD, Tiny, all good
    - -8 Str, +4 Dex, -4 Con, -8 Int, +4 Wis, +0 Cha, 0 NA. Aaaand there it is. These stats are a bit too specialized to be useful. It seems taylor-made for an Unarmed Swordsage, but low Int and low Con will cripple the mole in melee. I mean, Ardent exists, but I'm a bit tired of recommending it for half the monsters I review. I'd like to see it become a cleric with Surrogate Spellcasting.
    - Speed 15ft, burrow 15ft. That's slow, but being able to burrow is always pretty good. The problem is the brain mole doesn't have tremorsense, so it will be completely blind under the earth. That's super bad.
    - PLA: basically useless. Most of these shouldn't even be 2nd level. Detect Psionics wil come up sometimes so that's still good.
    - Hide Mind: How to pass as a regular mole familiar. Sure.
    - Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat. Good, but once again, you don't really want to be in melee.

    Low Int, low Str and no hand push it over the edge of LA-0, but the brain mole has way too much going for it to be worth DLA-1. Sadly, 1 RHD, DLA-0.


    Well, that was fun, and though I don't understand how it survived three editions, I happily welcome it! I am now half tempted to make an awakened mole character named "Brian Mole the Brain Mole" who has a level 1 psion as a cohort, and drains his power points every day to eat, while protecting him and using him as his mouth. The Psion wanted to go adventuring, but knew he was too weak for that, so Brian Mole suggested they go together.
    After this good laugh, we will try screaming with the Caller in Darkness. From art to abilities, nothing in the Caller is even remotely close to okay.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-06-06 at 04:02 PM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
    Nice find! Have a cookie!
    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  5. - Top - End - #425
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    And today, we have the Caller in Darkness, a deliciously creepy psionic incorporeal monster eating souls to add them to itself!
    Come....
    They're surprisingly similar to a wraith, even having the same stats (+6 Dex, +4 in all mental stats), or more accurately an orb wraith, as a collection of souls acting as a single Undead monster, fearing the sunlight and surrounded by an unnatural aura.
    Come to us...
    Sadly, where an incorporeal undead damaging Con is overpowered at 5 RHD, the same incorporeal undead with no ability damage on its incorporeal touch and 11 RHD is very much outclassed, and the Caller in Darkness expectedly got a -0 LA.
    Join us...
    However, multiple heads, despite not giving more intelligence, seem to grant psionic powers, which gives the CiD at least a niche. The PLAs themselves are actually really good, with at-will Mind Thrust for direct damage, and 3/day Death Urge, Psychic Crush and Suggestion for basically save-or-loses. But my favorite is definitely at-will Clairvoyant Sense.
    You know you want to.
    Being able to put long-running sensors (7 minutes) without limits means you can keep tab on 70 important locations in your campaign, as well as being able to see above the ground while being hidden underneath. Actually, that's the main reason why Sunlight Vulnerability isn't a big deal, despite the Caller not being able to simply wear concealing clothes. This also goes with the lack of body slot, except a hypothetical Ghost Touch Mask.
    The darkness beckons!
    The last thing the caller has going for it is four incorporeal touches. No built-in rider, but going Swordsage for these sweet swift action boosts might be really good (one level gives you assassin stance and Burning Blade for a total of 2d6+2d6+1d6+5 per incorporeal touch to which most enemies will be flat-footed, which is pretty damn good).
    The darkness calls!
    All in all, the Caller in Darkness is more interesting as a PC than as a monster, with the customizable touch attacks and the immense potential of Clairvoyant Sense.
    Sadly, as for most undead, we don't get any lore, and it didn't appear in any other edition, nor is it particularly interesting by itself, really. I mean, it appeared in 4e in Open Grave, the equivalent to Libris Mortis, but the litteral only lore we get from there is its type as a Shadow Animate, which means that it comes from the Shadowfell (like all incorporeal undead and a few creatures made of shadow, so nothing new) and that it's an Animate, that is that it was created through a ritual that erases its original identity, contrary to wraiths that are "naturally occurring" I guess. The point is that a wraith is still an humanoid at heart, and becomes it again if resurrected, while the Caller in Darkness is such an amalgamation of sould that no type can emerge. It's bound by magic, not by a soul. So yeah, one of the most cryptic lore clue from the edition with the worst lore, and not even a picture or description. That's great.
    COME JOIN US IN THE DARKNESS!!
    Still, despite the few problems, it still seems stronger than the wraith. 9 RHD, DLA-2 seems fair to me, though it may have a few difficulties leveling up (I still think swordsage is the best choice).
    We will take good care of you...

    And with this, we move on to the next monster. Next week, after this monster who only appeared in 3e (and slightly in 4e), we will have a creature who was featured from 1st edition and hasn't changed even one bit: the Crysmal!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-06-27 at 02:27 AM.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
    Nice find! Have a cookie!
    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  6. - Top - End - #426
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    Metastachydium's Avatar

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    ... Pfft... Hah... Hahahahaha! No, really, I find the 1e art hilarious. It's just a star-nosed mole, but you can make everything psionic by drawing lots of zigzag lines around it!
    Well, I suppose it was that or a comically oversized brain (in fact, all 3e did was upgrade the zigzag lines to blue cobweb lightning stuff and remove the star nose).

    The Brain Mole is a Magical Psionic Beast whose only interesting part is feeding on psionic energy. For this, it uses its Power Leech PLA, slowly draining power points from its "prey". Its strategy is pretty clear: come close to an unsuspecting psionic creature, detected using Detect Psionics, while staying hidden with its great Hide bonus and Hide Mind, then use Power Leech and immediately burrow 5ft into the ground (what? No reason 5ft-steps cannot be taken vertically) to be safe while siphoning power points for a few rounds before the psionic creatures goes away or finds it.
    I kind of wonder: why would it do that for rounds? As I understand it, a single power point will nourish it for a day. Do those days stack? (It can, of course, also use it for healing, but, like, why would it ever do that?)

    It's slow
    I'd argue that a 15' burrow speed is pretty darn fast for something available at such a low level.

    , and has no actual means of attacking.
    Well, it's Tiny, stealthy and can burrow. Psychic Rogue in a psionics-heavy game, maybe?

    You know what? I'm adding one to my campaign this instant. Just a nearly blind mole emerging in the psionic PC's room. I predict that it will either become a pet or die an horrible death before the end of the session.
    Oh, man. If you're really doing that, do tell how it went.

    But if you're a Naberius Binder/Psychic Warrior with the Body Fuel feat, and you only know self-buff powers, you can use it to manifest several powers per round for the price of one single action at the beginning of combat, then use Body Fuel+Naberius to recover slowly all your power points before the next fight. Something like PsyWar 7 with Empathic Feedback, Hustle, Body Adjustment, Dissolving Touch/Animal Affinity, Prevenom, Adrenaline Boost and Claws of the Beast may be interesting.
    Well, using a disease carrier as a buff is a quite novel strategy few will see coming (least of all moles), but

    However, it heavily depends on your party composition, as there's no way the Brain Mole is going into melee with a racial -4 to Con and -8 to Str, so I'll ignore it for now.
    yeah. That.

    Low Int, low Str and no hand push it over the edge of LA-0, but the brain mole has way too much going for it to be worth DLA-1. Sadly, 1 RHD, DLA-0.
    Technically, the Aberrant Limbs unique ability got a manageable RLA. But I'd definitely agree that this is anything but a good DNLA candidate.

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Well, I suppose it was that or a comically oversized brain (in fact, all 3e did was upgrade the zigzag lines to blue cobweb lightning stuff and remove the star nose).
    Don't forget "the same, but made out of crystals". Gem dragons would look quite comical with a huge bulging brain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I kind of wonder: why would it do that for rounds? As I understand it, a single power point will nourish it for a day. Do those days stack? (It can, of course, also use it for healing, but, like, why would it ever do that?)
    I mean, why wouldn't it? It has a stomach and fat reserves. I'm pretty sure I could eat twice as much one day and nothing the next with little to no repercussion, and bigger predators like crocodiles can eat enough to sustain them for weeks in a single meal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I'd argue that a 15' burrow speed is pretty darn fast for something available at such a low level.
    I was mostly talking about the land speed. The burrowing speed really doesn't matter. The mole cannot see where it is going when underground, so burrowing only matters as a means of hiding or getting inside new places, not so much in combat (I mean, it could be good to go underground and emerge the next round to avoid attacks and attacks of opportunity, but in that case it's still pretty slow compared to a human walking).

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Well, it's Tiny, stealthy and can burrow. Psychic Rogue in a psionics-heavy game, maybe?
    I thought about it. And my self-answer was "yeah, no.". It's indeed stealthy, but it has only one attack and -8 Int, so a skill-based class relying on multiple attacks would seriously be a waste for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Oh, man. If you're really doing that, do tell how it went.
    It's a really low-frequency game, but I'll come back to you in a few weeks ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Technically, the Aberrant Limbs unique ability got a manageable RLA. But I'd definitely agree that this is anything but a good DNLA candidate.
    There's no indication that the Aberrant Limbs are any different from the regular limbs of the creature, so at most you'd get a six-legged mole. Having 35ft land speed would obviously be good, but probably not worth +1. Grafts would probably be a better direction to look in, but prehensile hands grafts are quite expensive.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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    Real life moles will die from starvation after two or three hours without food.
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    Quote Originally Posted by loky1109 View Post
    Real life moles will die from starvation after two or three hours without food.
    No ****ing way

    I know the math of mass-to-surface-are ratio, I'm familiar with the physical impact it has, but that CANNOT be real.

    If you'd have told me shrews could die after 3 hours of not eating, I'd believe you. Maybe. Moles are like, significantly bugger. I'd never have guessed that. It'd take me weeks to starve to death, three hours seems insane. Wow!

    Sorry for derailing the thread, this just blew my mind. How long does it take a baby kitty to starve? I've been like "I'll get that cat some food when I'm back from work" a few times. Could these perfectly healthy kittens starve to death when I was gone?
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    I checked this and yes, 3 hours was exaggeration. Sources about european mole says 14 hours. Which isn't 3, but still is very few.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    Don't forget "the same, but made out of crystals". Gem dragons would look quite comical with a huge bulging brain.
    How could I forget that! (And now I must wonder: is there a psionic monster somewhere that is really just a big brain floating inside a crystal emitting zig-zagged lines?)

    I mean, why wouldn't it? It has a stomach and fat reserves. I'm pretty sure I could eat twice as much one day and nothing the next with little to no repercussion, and bigger predators like crocodiles can eat enough to sustain them for weeks in a single meal.
    Fair, and

    I was mostly talking about the land speed. The burrowing speed really doesn't matter. The mole cannot see where it is going when underground, so burrowing only matters as a means of hiding or getting inside new places, not so much in combat (I mean, it could be good to go underground and emerge the next round to avoid attacks and attacks of opportunity, but in that case it's still pretty slow compared to a human walking).
    fair. I'm just all about weird movement modes.

    I thought about it. And my self-answer was "yeah, no.". It's indeed stealthy, but it has only one attack and -8 Int, so a skill-based class relying on multiple attacks would seriously be a waste for it.
    I mean, it has no RHD and having a bite, it could rely on normal iteratives with a mouthpick.

    There's no indication that the Aberrant Limbs are any different from the regular limbs of the creature, so at most you'd get a six-legged mole. Having 35ft land speed would obviously be good, but probably not worth +1. Grafts would probably be a better direction to look in, but prehensile hands grafts are quite expensive.
    There's no indication they aren't either? But yeah, that complicates things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    No ****ing way

    I know the math of mass-to-surface-are ratio, I'm familiar with the physical impact it has, but that CANNOT be real.

    If you'd have told me shrews could die after 3 hours of not eating, I'd believe you. Maybe. Moles are like, significantly bugger. I'd never have guessed that. It'd take me weeks to starve to death, three hours seems insane. Wow!

    Sorry for derailing the thread, this just blew my mind. How long does it take a baby kitty to starve? I've been like "I'll get that cat some food when I'm back from work" a few times. Could these perfectly healthy kittens starve to death when I was gone?
    yeah thats wild. a quick search found this for me

    A mole will die of starvation if it does not eat every few hours. It finds food by running along its tunnels and eating up any earthworms, beetle larvae, slugs etc, which have fallen from the walls. A mole probably eats at least half its own body weight a day.

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    Evolution? Why need evolution? I do not understand humanoids, who try to "better" themselves. Your creator builds you one way, and you stay that way. Then you build others like you. You can try to find better materials to build them. You can try new shapes in which to build them. But it is better to build what you know. You know you. You build you. Then there are more of you. If you survive, you are good. If you die, you are bad. If you survive and change, you are good and you can become bad. It is bad to become bad. We are good. We stay good. Crystal is good material. Lot of it, and solid. Humanoids die in fire. Crystal does not. Humanoids die in snow. Crystal does not. Humanoids die in thunderstorms. Crystal does not. We are built good. We are simple to build. You have gems on you. Give them to us and we will build more.


    The crysmal is a crystal elemental insect, whose only goal in life is to survive, find some gems, and either eat them or build more of its kind, which it will then animate using Control Object (of course, the actual power doesn't do that, it's called suspension of disbelief guys!).
    It is notable as being the only D&D monster that I know named the same in two languages, but with a different plural form. See, crysmal simply is the word "crystal" with a different fifth letter, and as such, its plural is constructed the same way. So, crysmals. However, in french, "cristal" has an irregular plural "cristaux" (pronounced cree-sto), so the crysmal kept the english name (with a 'y' because... I don't know, suspension of disbelief?), but its plural in french is "crysmaux".

    The crysmals may have a nice design, but as adventurers, they are absolutely horrid. 6 Elemental RHD, a single sting attack on par with an orc's unarmed strike, desperately average stats except for a big hit to Intelligence (+4 across the board except +2 Con, -4 Int and +2 Wis), obviously no hand and no mouth to speak. It has PLAs, but they're all pretty bad, with the only offensive options being Mind Thrust, with a nonscaling awful ML 2 and Control Object, which by RAW gives you a creature with a penalty on damage. Thankfully, the thing's defenses aren't bad, with 8 natural armor, a burrow speed that can probably burrow through rock (seriously, why didn't the writers of this book give tremorsense to the burrowing creatures? This thing has the Earth subtype, for crying out loud), at-will Empty Mind, immunity to fire and cold, resistance 15 to electricity and DR 5/bludgeoning. And if things really go south, 3/day Dimension door (ML 2, of course) to take the party to safety.

    All in all, the crysmal seems to have much more than it actually has. You're basically working with a blank slate and once every few weeks, you'll just exclaim "Oh, wait, I can animate the lock on this door to open it!" or equivalent. 3 RHD, DLA-2 should make it playable, maybe even quite good, though I'm not sure where it would go. Warlock? Or bard. I'd like to see one of these as a bard, using something like a magic theremin making music from it moving its stinger and one of its legs. Would take Surrogate Spellcasting for somatic components, but you just have to not learn spells with somatic components (what do you mean, all good spells have S components? The mighty Locate City is only verbal ^^).


    The crysmal is the perfect representation of a world-building monster. It has no goal that would clash with the party's, it just wants to build offsprings, and could even be an ally if the party promises it some gems. *sigh* No wonder it was cut from 4e. Anyway, next time, we will review one of the only predators the crysmals could ever have: the folugub!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-06-27 at 02:34 AM.
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    Folugub? Bugulof? Gublufo? Bufulog? No, I have nothing, what does this name mean...

    The Folugub is just a beetle that destroys and eats crystals. Like a Rust Monster, but much worse, since there exists a lot less gems than there is metal accessible, especially to monsters. Now, "crystal" is very badly defined in D&D, as theoretically ice is a crystal, as is salt, and all metals actually. That doesn't seem to be the actual ability, as the folugub isn't eating the sword in its picture. I guess the intent was precious metals, gems and psionic crystals.

    The folugub is mechanically identical to the rust monster, with 1 fewer RHD, +4 Con, +2 Cha, and the ability to scent and melt crystal instead of metal. Total: 4 RHD, +6 Dex and Con, -8 Int, +2 Wis, +5 NA, no hand or mouth. Basically as useless as a rust monster in combat, and with none of the utility outside of combat. Also, feeding is hard. Gems don't come cheap. Especially at low levels, where you won't even have a Mouthpick weapon, and using a secondary bite in combat will be hard. With these stats, I guess a Totemist/Swordsage would be good. Totemist to gain natural attacks (Winter Mask, Girallon Arms) and Swordsage to boost them. Maybe Insightful Strike can be used to deal Concentration damage with a touch attack using your tongue.

    Still worse than the Rust Monster, 1 RHD, LA+1, DLA-2, and see you next time for our favorite brain-eating worm, the neothelid!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-06-20 at 06:45 AM.
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    Far, far away from Toril, in a time forgotten by time itself...
    The member of the chosen race looked at the creature who fell from the skies. It was different, minuscule compared to adults of the chosen race, using two of its four tentacles to manipulate items, and walking on the other two. Even the device it arrived in was unique. How did it work? Only one way to know. In one swoop of the immense worm-like creature's tentacles, the newcomer was lifted from the ground and eaten. When the human's brain was assimilated, the neothelid understood what she was. It understood that there were so many more out there, enough, maybe, to feed its entire race. It understood how to build and drive spelljammers. And, most of all, it understood the drive for adventure... And for conquest.


    Spoiler: The cyclic history of illithids
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    Mind flayers are a figure of stagnation. Despite their experiments and their formidable adaptation potential, both vertically by ceremorphing new species, and horizontally by eating brains and absorbing their memories, the species as a whole is remarkably self-similar. All but a handful of illithids have the same appearance, the same society under the guidance of the elder brains, and the same goal of dominating humanoids and eventually emerging to subjugate the surface as well. That's because they consider their own body and society as the actual best possible. And with good reasons. Where most races' society have evolved for a few millenia at most, up to 35,000 years for the yuan-ti, the illithids have had quite litterally an infinite time.

    In the far future, mind flayers think they will rule the universe. Then, as the universe itself comes to an end, they send some of their own to the past, a few thousand years before the Dale Reckoning, with the task to rule the world themselves, hence completing the loop. They appear dispersed across space, they try to find Abeir-Toril with their spelljammers, plot world domination for thousands or millions of years, then go back in time. No beginning and no end. The whole history of Abeir-Toril is this self-fulfilling prophecy of a race that does not, and logically cannot meaningfully evolve, lest it breaks the loop. In a word: the current form of illithids is the fixed point of the function "evolution through one universe lifetime". It is the limit of the sequence of infinite evolution.

    Ironically, mind flayers do not have precise knowledge of their future. When they travel back in time, they lose all memories (including how to build spelljammers) except their goal of eventual domination. Maybe illithids are simply setting themselves up for failure, repeating the exact same actions in each timeline, then time-travelling in a desperate attempt to escape defeat and annihilation, all for naught. The time travel instead prevents them from seeking brand new tactics and finding new ways in which they could win, as they are so sure that their society as it is is destined to victory.


    So, we know the eventual destiny of the flayers, but what about their origin? In the original timeline, how did the mind slavers live among the stars, where there was no humanoid to ceremorph? Well, they lived as neothelids. When you leave an illithid tadpole with enough food to grow but no humanoid brain to eat, it just grows bigger and bigger, until it reaches its adult size as a Gargantuan worm. And now it is time to go back to the original thread, and bathe in the majesty of its magnificent 5e art. Bathe I say! That's just a Souls boss right there, and I'm all for it. The neothelid is stronger than a mind flayer and has similar psionic abilities, but is slower, much less intelligent, and has no hand. Still, it explicitly retains the ability to absorb brain energies, and that's actually the trigger that makes them self-aware and more intelligent than humans, even without true ceremorphosis. Only eating the brain of a sentient creature gives the neothelid its psionic powers.
    For illithids, seeing a neothelid would be like us seeing an australopithecus. We know it's one of our ancestors, and that it could beat our ass, but it's also basically an animal. Even worse, for illithids, neothelids are the negation of their destiny, it's a reminder that they could all go back to being giant worms if their society collapsed. They feel basically insulted by the very existence of this race, which explains why there are so few neothelids alive: mind flayers do all they can to prevent them from being born and kill them if they are.

    So if you really want to anger all illithids you meet, let's try to make them playable! And as always, let's go over what they offer:

    - Gargantuan 25 RHD Aberration. One thing is sure, the neothelid is definitely not solar-tier and isn't worth so much investment.
    - +20 Str, -4 Dex, +16 Con, +6 Int, +4 Wis, +10 Cha. 24 Natural Armor. Ridiculously good stats, very suited for a battlefield controller.
    - 4 tentacles with 30ft reach, Improved Grab and Swallow Whole. What was that? Battlefield controller?
    - 100ft Blindsight, DR 5/-, PR 0+HD. The blindsight is good, the defenses are decent.
    - 20ft movement speed. That's a problem, though nothing insurmountable (Scorpion's Grasp?). Also, no burrow speed, despite the 3.5 picture litterally showing the neothelid emerging from a tunnel.
    - 14d10 acid cone breath weapon, 1d4 rounds. That's a really good breath weapon, and could warrant taking Clinging Breath or Maximize Breath.
    - PLAs (ML 15): At-will psionic charm, mass suggestion, levitate, clairvoyant sense, psionic teleport, telekinetic force... make for great utility. Charm and Suggestion for social situation, clairvoyant sense to keep a tab on all important locations, and psionic teleport to bring the whole party if you detect something. Telekinetic Force/Thrust/Maneuver are great to manipulate objects. Truevenom is weird. If it works on your tentacle rakes, it's great, and you may even consider taking an orange ioun stone and Quicken PLA on it. If it doesn't, it's simply useless. The 3/day are less useful, as your breath weapon will almost always be more interesting.


    I think I would alternate Psychic Warrior and Crusader on this thing. Having ML 15 on all PLA means the neothelid has 37 bonus power points from its charisma alone, letting it spam low-level powers all day with no problem. Then you take regular BFC feats like Combat Reflexes, mage slayer and Stand Still. Requires a lot of investment in Dex, but you can afford it, with all the bonuses you have in other stats, and the result is worth it. And out of combat, you are very far from resourceless. I think I'd actually enjoy playing one of those (if we're not adventuring underground). It's pretty similar to the kraken, but with better PLAs and fewer attacks. I think 14 RHD is fair, and DLA-8 to give it more feats and a slightly better than full BAB.


    Next time, we'll have "Mr. Shine! Him Diamond!", what happens when a psion decides to create a golem, but is too refined to search for materials apart from his pile of discarded psi-crystals.
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    - Oh no, I'm a DM who doesn't use Magic-Psionics transparency and wants a creature to challenge my psion!
    - Just use Magic-Psionics transparency!
    - Is there any way my creatures with SR and my golems could stand up to his mind powers??
    - Use the transparencyyyy!!
    - I know, I'll just use the Psion-Killer, the psionic equivalent to a golem! It can even remove their buffs, it's perfect!
    - Uuuuuughh...

    The Psion-Killer (no space, but with an hyphen), or crystal golem, is just a slightly stronger Stone Golem with Power Immunity rather than Spell Immunity (which should be the same with transparency). It is also known for being the single one creature that you can create with Craft Psionic Constructs, which makes it one of the worst feats in the whole game.
    The crystal golem has 15 RHD. Like all golems, it is Large, with 2 extremely strong slams and DR 10/Adamantine. It has +20 Str, -10 Cha, +19 NA (close enough), and can Dispel Psionics as a free action in an unfriendly AoE that doesn't affect magic items. Magic immunity is good as always, and Dispel Psionics can be interesting, though it will require a bit of positioning. All in all, slightly stronger than the Stone Golem (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +1 NA, and Dispel is about as strong as Slow in my opinion, maybe a bit worse), but not enough for one more RHD. 10 RHD, DLA-3


    I really looks a lot like Ben 10's Diamondhead. Would have been cool to have it launch crystal shards, or have its slams trigger bleeding. Anyway, skipping the puppetteers (sad, I would have liked talking about them), we go directly to the temporal filchers! Where some monster make you waste your time reading about them, this one actually steals it, which makes for actually interesting interactions... See you next time!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-06-29 at 04:47 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here





    Look at'im. Look at this guy. How can a monster be both so geniusly designed and still so ineptly inadapted to the tone of the game?
    The original idea is immaculate. Based on an iconic monster (the Ethereal Filcher), giving it an appearance just different enough that you can tell that they are related but definitely different, patching it weaknesses (the Ethereal Filcher had an interesting ability but was such a non-threat that it didn't matter, while the Temporal Filcher can actually pack a punch even without its gimmick), and giving it an actual gimmick that will intrigue the players, keep them guessing for minutes and try everything they have tol solve it, to no avail. Seriously, Time Filch (Su) is an insanely cool trick, its flair is great, with the Temporal Filcher grabbing its foe with two or more hands, before teleporting through time 7 minutes in the future, and it's actually really good in combat if the Temporal Filcher doesn't fight alone. Even if it does, most parties will somehow move on to either scout the area for their vanished friend or find a cleric to resurrect them, allowing the Temporal Filcher to reappear with the foe grappled, dazed and without backup. And on top of it, it can walk on walls, hide itself, teleport... It can be a dreading threat if the DM uses it well. This is such a great monster, definitely up there with the Unbodied, the Neothelid, the puppeteer and the intellect devourer as one of the unsorted best monsters in the book.

    However!
    However, Time Filch is such a pain. If you face it, you're done. You're in time out (read: out of time. I mean, outside of time) for the rest of the fight. And on the other hand, if the rest of the party successfully identified the temporal filcher (does anybody have Knowledge (Dungeoneering)?), it's just a game over, as they will just prepare and set up traps for when the Temporal Filcher comes back. And worst of all, the party cannot do anything if they don't identify it. There is almost no chance that they would spontaneously decide to stay there to attack the Filcher. When it comes back, with some luck, the party is still close, and will just attack it again. Time Filch changes any short fight into two fights and a boring investigation phase between them. In a game where combat is already known to be obnoxiously long, it's just unacceptable.

    And it's basically the same if you're playing a Temporal Filcher yourself. Time Filch is a very, very powerful ability that your allies can abuse to finish off the rest of the fight while you're phasing out with the main threat (it's also the reason why you should absolutely find gloves of the Titan's Grip asap), but it also means that the more successful your build is, the less it gets to do, which feels awful.
    The first thing you should do is, very simply, to get a friend. Not the rest of the party, but a cohort, an animal companion, a dragon familiar, hell, even an unseen servant. Someone that you're going to play while the Temporal Filcher is phased out. But if you do, then the Filch' is an amazing choice. Six natural attacks including four claws with Improved Grab, two of which can be used for weapons instead, decent PLAs including immediate action Mental Barrier and Dimension Door, and a good speed of 40ft. Sadly, it has pretty bad stats (+2 Str, +6 Dex, +4 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, +3 NA) which makes its grappling modifier pretty bad despite its size, and Time Filch doesn't work on Huge or larger creatures. In a lot of cases, you'll have to rely on your other abilities.

    I think the Temporal Filcher largely deserves 6 RHD, DLA-1 for its versatility and power despite its low stats. I suggest Wild Cohort, Swordsage 1 for both Sneak Attack and Shadow Jaunt, Monk 2 for Evasion, saves and AC, as well as Dodge and Mobility, then 4 levels of Telflammar Shadowlord for incredible Shadowpouncing capabilities, then back to Swordsage for Shadow Stride at level 14 (two full attacks per round, including Sneak Attack-improved unarmed strikes and the possibility for Time Filch can make a real hole in the enemies' defense). Still, this build is quite MAD, needing a lot of Int for Shadowlord spells, some Wis for Monk and Swordsage DCs, and Str to hit people and for grappling.


    Wanna know something funny? The Temporal Filcher has Wall Walker as a PLA, which allows him to walk on walls and ceilings. However, contrary to Spider Climb, Wall Walker requires you to always have a foot on the surface, preventing you from running. Problem? The Temporal Filcher only has one foot. I'll let you imagine trying to drag itself along the ceiling while it can only slowly slide its leg if it doesn't want to fall. Next time, we will have the most Undead-looking not-Undead creatures in the whole game, the original titan Thought Eater and Thought Slayer! See you then!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-07-08 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    Spoiler: What do you mean it's not spelled like that?
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    The Thought Eater, and its evolution, the Thought Slayer, are skeletal platypus-looking creatures originating from 1e, living in the border Ethereal and eating the intelligence of Material creatures, which started goofy, then became badass in 2e. Now, in 3e it looks more like a wingless quadrupedal eagle skeleton, but we can forgive the new art, because it's awesome. It's finally as creepy as "ethereal elusive skeletal creature ineluctably draining your intelligence" should be.
    Also, something you can notice is this weird cobweb-like thing dangling from the Thought Eater's skeleton. It looks both like the cloud it absorbs from the poor chap on the ground, and like the brain mole's updated zigzag lines. Basically, the 3e Thought Eater litterally wears brain energy. It would be a nice sight when fighting several of those, to see the most starved of them being literally only bones, while the most powerful ones, or the luckiest ones, having eaten more recently and actually having organs, flesh, and even skin made of mental energy, which slowly evaporates with time. You can't overstate the creepiness of having this thing bite you, eat your memories, and suddenly growing a liver.

    The Thought Eater can freely go from the Ethereal to the Material Plane (move action in this direction, free action to go back), but cannot stay more than a minute on the Material lest it simply dies, no save. This made the original thread give an asterisk for the whole ability, both planeshifting and material vulnerability. To Inevitability and the people there, I have something to say:
    Spoiler: ARE YOU STORMING COWARDS!?
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    We rated creatures who couldn't move, creatures dying if they go in sunlight, creatures dying if they attack, and creatures that, for all instance and purposes, as close as anyone can tell, do not exist at all. The Trilloch didn't get an asterisk, for Jergal's sake! How is needing to use a free action every minute "disrupting any campaign"? How is the ability to planeshift at will worse than simply being incorporeal or whatever the Will-o'-Wisp brings to the table? This asterisk was completely unnecessary, and I have the impression that this was a point in the history of the thread where people liked streamlined, simple monsters with no complicated abilities. There were even people arguing for asterisking the Thought Slayer's gaze, which is exactly the same as the bodak's. And even more than that, it's basically the signature ability of the Thought Eater, and removing it makes it completely awful and dooms it to -0. If you're going to remove all interesting abilities from monsters, then we might as well just reassign LAs on the humanoid monsters with no special quality, which is basically what WotC did that lead to the creation of the LA assignment thread in the first time. And the worst is that they didn't keep the asterisk for the Thought Slayer. How could it have been justified at low level, where there's no Dimensional Anchor or dimensionally locked spaces anyway, but not at higher levels where this kind of things become (still very relatively) more widespread? Anyway, rant over, no use crying over spillt milk, but we can try to make the most out of what's left in the glass.


    Let's get to the point:
    Thought Eater:
    - 3 RHD Medium Aberration
    - +2 Str, +8 Dex, +0 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, +2 NA. The total isn't bad, but the repartition doesn't lend to any specific role, except maybe scout.
    - low-level PLAs: Psionic Daze, Detect Psionic, Precognition at will are decent.
    - Touch attack natural weapon dealing 1 point of Int damage.

    It's a really bad natural weapon, but if you go back to our good pals the initiators, you could use sneak attack (assassin's stance? Or a level of rogue.) to add actual damage, then use maneuvers to add extra damage to that actual damage, all while using touch attacks, with the added benefit of dealing a few Int damage. It's actually not a bad choice of career, and having a touch attack dealing actual damage while still having a strength score (something that is surprisingly rare) asks the question of whether or not you can add Power Attack to it. If you can, it's great. If not, then you can probably use Combat Expertise to gain 5 AC while losing negligible accuracy. That's not such a bad choice of career, but it scales really badly, since you have no way of doing iteratives until Avalanche of Blades, which is quite late in the game. All in all, the Thought Eater can be decent between levels 5 and 8, then bad until 12, then decent from 13 to 15, then bad again. And I don't know how to make it stronger in the intervals while keeping it not too strong at low levels. I'll go with a tentative 1 RHD, LA+1 and DLA-1.

    And if you allow it to keep its ethereal jeunt ability, which you clearly should, it becomes a great scout, almost invincible in combat as you can move in the Material Plane in a flanking position, attack, then go back to the Ethereal Plane. No AoO, no way to attack you outside your turn. And still your damaging touch attack for offense. In that case, I think giving it LA+1 would be the best, though you can disagree and think that it deserves +0, or even -0 because of its garbage scaling.

    Thought Slayer:
    Though designed as a mutation of the thought eater, the thought slayer is very different, if only because its singular attack is not a touch attack anymore, but a physical bite, which makes disappearing each turn much less atractive. Basically, if you play a thought slayer, you'll just be a regular melee fighter using a mouthpick weapon and its overpowered gaze. Oh, yeah, it has a SoD gaze. Good luck not killing your allies with it while gaining the most from it. In any case, the whole party should wear glasses, so that your gaze only dazes them instead of killing them (it has a reduced effect if seen indirectly, like Harry Potter's basilic). It's also mind-affecting, so won't work on plants and oozes.

    - 14 RHD Huge Aberration
    - +16 Str, +2 Dex, +10 Con, -4 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, +14 NA. Now, we can at least clearly see it's supposed to be a melee fighter, but the total is bad (+30), and the mental stats are worse.
    - More PLAs, but not much more powerful. A lot of garbage, Precognition reduced to 3/day (why?), Brain Lock as an upgrade to psionic daze, but still so low DC it's unuseable, and it won't help you against mindless opponents, and mental barrier to help in melee. The rest is irrelevant.
    - SoD Gaze, ethereal jaunt. Both are incredible abilities, but with complications.
    - PR 7+HD is appreciated.

    Once again, you'll have to work for it, but I think you could make something of it with 9 RHD, DLA-4.

    Next time, we will review the Udoroot, which surprised me a lot. I didn't think anything with double action would get LA-0.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-07-08 at 07:13 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #439
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    I have read this statblock a few times now, and I have actually told myself a few times "you know, depending on the situation, I'd rather play a shrieker fungus". And that's never a good sign.

    Spoiler: Long picture
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    The udoroot is just what it says on the tin: a root. A 10ft-big bulb buried below the surface, with the only emerging parts being sunflower-like human-size "crowns" with which the udoroot can psionically perceive its surrounding and kill unfortunate animals and travellers, which it then uses as fertilizer. If the sunflowers weren't that suspicious, it would almost have made a good surprise attacker. It is a potent manifester, capable of using two (2) psi-like abilities per turn with a single standard action. Also, it literally cannot die "unless the root is dug out and severed, burned or otherwise destroyed". The problem? Where do I even start...

    Spoiler: Problem #1: moving
    Show
    First, it is inanimate. Remember the shrieker fungus, and how the inability to move or attack made it one of the worst creatures in the game? Well the Udoroot also lacks Dex, and its even more unwieldy than the fungus, as it's Huge, which means it's about 15 tons (if I go by a 10ft diameter and neglect the weight of the crowns and roots). Contrary to the shrieker, a horse can't carry you, and cannot even drag you. If nobody in the party has more than 40 Str (all in all, quite a likely scenario), you're going to have to move by yourself. But, once again, your land speed is exactly zero, and you're paralyzed, which means you'll have to use magical means of transportation, as everything that gives you wings will not work. You don't have a face for the Winged Mask, you don't have feet for Airstep Sandals, a flying carpet isn't strong enough to lift you... I guess a phoenix cloak and a level in monk or barbarian would allow you to fly at a 10ft speed at the cost of a level and 50k gp. That or mineral warrior. I really think your best bet is to use a cart with a whole crew of horses (really, a single horse can drag 3k lbs, you'd need 10 of them to transport you). The best is to buy 2 dozen mules for a few hundred gps. Now, you can go around in your cart by waving a carrot with your telekinesis, but you still can't go inside dungeons, or buildings, or tight forest. Aren't you glad? I'd really like to know if one of you know how to move efficiently without wasting tens of thousands of gp or looking like an award-winning turnip in a cart.

    Interestingly, it would not have happened in 3.0, as the Udoroot had a Dex score, though I don't know what part of it could move.

    Spoiler: Problem #2: contributing
    Show
    Even when you're there, it's not like you're all-powerful. Your PLAs are generally not bad, especially offensively --Mind Thrust, Id insinuation, Energy Stun and Telekinetic Force are all good to great abilities, even moreso if you can spam them twice per round, and Astral Construct makes for a decent beatstick-- but they are lacking in defense. Mental barrier is not as good as inertial armor, and Thought Shield on a Plant is just useless. But even if they were good, it would not do you any good. As written, your crowns are not a part of your body, they are just objects you have to bring with you in order to manifest PLAs. So all your defensive powers (and basically nothing you can gain with class levels) can help you protect your most vital area. Because, yeah, the biggest problem with the Udoroot is that when all its crowns are dead, it cannot manifest PLA, and it cannot perceive its surroundings in any way. It's even explicitly helpless. So these AC 5 objects with 7 HP and Hardness 5 have to be protected unless you want to be completely useless in combat. And they don't scale with your level, it's 7 HP until level 20. And if they're destroyed, you have to wait for ONE MONTH for them to regrow. One month without PLA, and one month during which you are helpless. That is so long that you'd probably be desperate enough to pay for a Regenerate spell. The worst part is that they can be harmed by area spells without benefitting from your elemental resistances, which means a simple Fireball will destroy them all and leave you helpless. Fortunately, they're objects, so you can use any item-centric method to protect them. A CL 6 Drow House Insignia of 1/day Augment Object is only 6.5k gp, and you can ask your local artificer to cast Hardening on your crowns for less than 2k gp, for a total of Hardness 16 and 14 HP, which is much more reasonable, up to mid levels, at which point you'll have to be more creative. Also, you can probably Make Whole them, since they're not technically creatures, which changes everything.

    Once again, this would not be a problem in 3.0, as the crowns could not be harmed by AoE spells, and the udoroot coul manifest one PLA per remaining crown, up to 6 per round! Also, it had Astral Construct at-will, which means it could indefinitely create 6 Astral Construct II per round, which doesn't sound like a CR 5 monster to me.

    Spoiler: Problem #3: advancing
    Show
    Like the shrieker, not many classes fit a creature with no Dex and low Int. However, the Udoroot at least has decent Wis and Cha, which opens up a few new possibilities. There is of course the Ardent, like for 60% of monsters I'm rating here it seems, with obviously the Freedom mantle to gain some moving capabilities, and Double Manifesting may even allow you to manifest two powers per turn depending on how you interpret the infamous "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability". You could also be a Wilder for more choice but less versatility, or Metamind, which allows you to unequivocally manifest your known powers as Psi-Like abilities, hence twice per round. Sadly, you can't become a Truenamer.


    Just for the awful difficulties you'll meet in your everyday life, the reliance on items and the unreliability of your main trick, I'll assign 2 RHD and DLA-3 to the Udoroot, despite its undeniable immediate power.


    Wow. What a way to finish the XPH (the Yuan-ti Pureblood and Halfblood both get the same rating as their non-psionic version)! The Udoroot and the Unbodied in quick succession really stretch the line of what could be considered workable as a playable character (with notably the Unbodied being one of the most "out there" officially playable monsters in the whole game, up there with the Sharn and the Phaerimm). Next time, we will start the Fiend Folio, which has creatures ranging from the Red Ethergaunt, still to this day the creature with the highest reassigned LA (+7) all the way down to... Well, to our next monster, the Abyssal Ghoul! See you, have a nice day!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 03:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  20. - Top - End - #440
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Tarzan The Turnip

    How about Ape Totem Druid? You (and your crowns) wildshape into an ape for 1 hr per level, and will be accompanied by an animal companion with hands that can at least attend to you and help protect you. You'll probably spend a decent chunk of game time just playing as this ape companion.
    If you take Natural Spell, by level 3 you can cast Aspect of the Wolf right at the end of your Totem Form's duration, giving you an additional 10 mins of mobility/lvl as a spellcasting wolf: a whole 3.5 hrs of functional play per day. The Extra Wildshape feat would allow this to be stretched out to cover most adventuring days.
    I can't see why your crowns wouldn't work when shapeshifted.

    If you also had access to Levitate through a manifesting class, the ape could at least guide you around like a giant balloon.
    I mean, it's still hilariously bad, but you could nearly play it with an accommodating DM in a suitably silly campaign. Better hope you get out of the dungeon in time or you could suddenly turn back into a giant turnip at a crucial point, blocking your party's only exit route.
    Last edited by Dalmosh; 2023-07-13 at 09:11 PM.

  21. - Top - End - #441
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Dalmosh View Post
    Tarzan The Turnip

    How about Ape Totem Druid?
    Thank you for this name ^^

    I generally do not take druid into account when examining possible classes. And that's for several reasons, namely three. First, as I said when reviewing the shrieker, you're here to play a monster, not play a random animal like any other druid character. Then, druid is absurdly overpowered as a class, being a full caster with both Wild Shape and Animal Companion on top of it (and also naturally having a better chassis than Plant). This makes any number of RHD ill-adapted for a druid, especially if you only come online around level 8 (when you can be constantly Wild Shaped) and you also have low Int. 2 RHD Udoroot druid might be good above level 8 (especially thanks to mind-affecting immunity and other plant traits), but as you said, simply playing as your animal companion for 6-7 levels isn't what I would call "balanced". At least psionic classes are immediately useable, and somehow synergistic with the udoroot's natural abilities. And finally, more specifically for the udoroot, we have no idea what happens to the crowns when the udoroot polymorphs. Are they a part of the creature? Only attached to it? Do they still work? The most sane reading would be, in my opinion, that the crowns simply disappear into the new form, like worn items, and lose all properties, which would neuter even more the original abilities, since a Wild Shaped udoroot would be unable to use PLAs, and to use Blindsight.

    Also, I love the mental image of the udoroot-hot-air-balloon. You could even have the udoroot make the ape float in return if needed. And if the opponent tries to attack the ape, it can just retreat, then the Udoroot just uses its standard to dispel its own Levitate and fall on the enemy's head. You take 4d6 damage for falling, they take 150d6 due to your mass! I mean, it's a DC 15 Reflex for no damage, but if it fails that's a stupendous amount of damage.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  22. - Top - End - #442
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post

    [SPOILER=Problem #1: moving]First, it is inanimate.
    It's perfectly animate! It just doesn't move!

    Remember the shrieker fungus, and how the inability to move or attack made it one of the worst creatures in the game? Well the Udoroot also lacks Dex, and its even more unwieldy than the fungus, as it's Huge, which means it's about 15 tons (if I go by a 10ft diameter and neglect the weight of the crowns and roots). Contrary to the shrieker, a horse can't carry you, and cannot even drag you. If nobody in the party has more than 40 Str (all in all, quite a likely scenario), you're going to have to move by yourself. But, once again, your land speed is exactly zero, and you're paralyzed, which means you'll have to use magical means of transportation, as everything that gives you wings will not work. You don't have a face for the Winged Mask, you don't have feet for Airstep Sandals, a flying carpet isn't strong enough to lift you... I guess a phoenix cloak and a level in monk or barbarian would allow you to fly at a 10ft speed at the cost of a level and 50k gp. That or mineral warrior. I really think your best bet is to use a cart with a whole crew of horses (really, a single horse can drag 3k lbs, you'd need 10 of them to transport you). The best is to buy 2 dozen mules for a few hundred gps. Now, you can go around in your cart by waving a carrot with your telekinesis, but you still can't go inside dungeons, or buildings, or tight forest. Aren't you glad? I'd really like to know if one of you know how to move efficiently without wasting tens of thousands of gp or looking like an award-winning turnip in a cart.
    Six levels in Warlock for Flee the Scene? It's only 40' per round as a standard action, but still better than most other options, only costs levels, doubles as a defense and while half the Warlock stuff is massively useless for the 'Root, leasts such as Entropic Warding and Breath of the Night might likewise help with protecting the crowns; if one finds a way to interact with magic items, the 'Root's CHA bonus mixes well with Deceive Item; and given that it already has at-will ranged attacks with a better rate of fire, Eldritch Blast is not a huge loss.

    Just for the awful difficulties you'll meet in your everyday life, the reliance on items and the unreliability of your main trick, I'll assign 2 RHD and DLA-5 to the Udoroot, despite its undeniable immediate power.
    …and being a FLOWER (or six). Let's not forget that.

    (with notably the Unbodied being one of the most "out there" officially playable monsters in the whole game, up there with the Sharn and the Phaerimm)
    (…and also one of the most out there combinations in the game overall, what with being an Incorporeal Monstrous Humanoid without looking even vaguely humanoid.)

    Next time, we will start the Fiend Folio, which has creatures ranging from the Red Ethergaunt, still to this day the creature with the highest reassigned LA (+7) all the way down to... Well, to our next monster, the Abyssal Ghoul!
    Fiend Folio! Another big favourite of mine! (Also, good progress!)

  23. - Top - End - #443
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    It's perfectly animate! It just doesn't move!
    Six levels in Warlock for Flee the Scene?
    I can agree that all living creatures (hence, things with a Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma score) are animate, in that they have a soul to sell, but I don't think bartering it away for warlock powers is the best way to use your experience points. Remember all invocations require somatic components, which may be a tiny bit difficult to use for a natively paralyzed turnip. Of course, that's not counting the attack roll for eldritch blast, or the fact that low Int means skill-based invocations are use-impaired.



    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    …and being a FLOWER (or six). Let's not forget that.
    You might be a tiny bit biased, mister "Happy Little Blue Flower of Whirling Death for Humans"


    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    (…and also one of the most out there combinations in the game overall, what with being an Incorporeal Monstrous Humanoid without looking even vaguely humanoid.)
    Oh, don't even get me started on this one! It's worse than just "not looking humanoid", it doesn't even have a shape at all when not assuming likeness! Also, the point is mostly that they were former humanoids, and only removing their body without changing their mind (mostly) wasn't enough to make them Aberrations. Still an utter ruling nightmare, and absolutely one of the weirdest type/subtype combinations. If I had to nominate another candidate, apart from all the unique subtypes like [Void], [Force] or [Spirit], I'd say the Silthilar and its [Swarm, Shapechanger] is one of the best ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    Fiend Folio! Another big favourite of mine! (Also, good progress!)
    In general, I'd agree, but restricting ourselves to the -0 creatures means we will be skipping the best stuff. From what's left, I'm most interested by extremely high-powered creatures like the Crawling Head, the Thunder Worm and the Yuan-ti Anathema, or weird things like the Ethereal Ooze, but the interesting mid-level Outsiders almost all got positive LA.
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  24. - Top - End - #444
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

    Quote Originally Posted by Beni-Kujaku View Post
    I can agree that all living creatures (hence, things with a Constitution, Wisdom and Charisma score) are animate, in that they have a soul to sell, but I don't think bartering it away for warlock powers is the best way to use your experience points. Remember all invocations require somatic components, which may be a tiny bit difficult to use for a natively paralyzed turnip.
    Oh, right. And since that's an invokers only thing, there isn't even a feat for that. So… With the INT penalty that leaves us, well, 8 levels of Sorcerer and Dimensional Jaunt? I guess?

    You might be a tiny bit biased, mister "Happy Little Blue Flower of Whirling Death for Humans"
    YOU REMEMBERED! (Which, um, given the bit with whirling death might not be the best thing. Might need to mbe more subtle in the future.)

    In general, I'd agree, but restricting ourselves to the -0 creatures means we will be skipping the best stuff. From what's left, I'm most interested by extremely high-powered creatures like the Crawling Head, the Thunder Worm and the Yuan-ti Anathema, or weird things like the Ethereal Ooze,
    Ah. Does it help that I'm happy for your doing this, never the less?

    but the interesting mid-level Outsiders almost all got positive LA.
    (As did the Abrian! (I like birds.))

  25. - Top - End - #445
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    And here we go with Fiend Folio! And to set the stage, we start with one of the two "Ghoul, but from the Abyss" monsters in this book, the other one being the Maurezhi, with the only notable inspiration difference between the two being that each got one half of the ghoul's identity. The Maurezhi got the same diet and iconic paralysis, but is a full Outsider, while the Abyssal Ghoul got the name and type, but not much else.
    The Abyss!Ghoul's design is chilling, with its single claw on each feet and two on each hand making it look almost avian, and its long tongue finishing in smoke making you wonder what it can be used for. I can imagine it charging towards someone, stopping before them, making two claw attacks with its arms, then, in the same movement, putting its claws on the ground to support itself while it claws with both feet at the same time. Of course, in actuality it doesn't have Pounce, and its tongue only deals minor Wis damage when it pins an opponent, which will happen exactly zero times per campaign in combat situations.

    As a PC, the fact that it doesn't have thumbs will hurt it, but it's otherwise a pretty good rogue. High Int, Dex and Str, innate Sneak Attack +5d6, Uncanny Dodge and some nice natural armor (+14) make for a great combination. It's clearly better if you can cast Deeper Darkness on a piercing on your eye. Yes, it may seem horribly painful, but hear me out: the Abyssal Ghoul is blind and sees with Blindsight, but it still has eyes, and presumably eyelids. With an eye-piercing, it could just close its eyes and not be a bother in cities or social situation (or at least not anymore than any human-eating undead could be), then open them in combat to have a 60ft shadowy illumination in which to hide. Also, it's undead, I don't think its nerves are still functioning. It doesn't have many abilities and Undead RHD are not very fit for Melee, but its raw stats (total +36) and Sneak Attack more than balance the lack of BAB. I actually think it's comparable or better than a PHB race straight rogue with 9 RHD (at which point it is tied with the rogue for sneak attack). It also has way better defenses, like SR 4+HD, and resistance to all energies except sonic (this ghoul really has very good defenses, with energy resistances, SR and Undead immunity making it very hard to effectively beat using spells, except of course the universal mute button: Disintegrate). Now, a rogue would be able to take prestige classes, or to continue and gain special abilities, and the Abyssal Ghoul can't wield weapons, which limits its progression, so I don't think I'll go above 9 RHD. And as always, no scaling ability except SR and low BAB RHD are not good, so DLA-5.


    Oh, yeah, and like most Undead, it doesn't have much lore. At least we know it's created by Kiaransalee instead of naturally occurring. Weirdly enough, WotC thought this monster was iconic enough to appear in the actual Monster Manual in 4th edition, though to be fair, it was very different, being simply a stronger ghoul with a weaker paralysis and that sprays cursed blood around when destroyed. Actually, 4e has a lot of ghoul variations. The regular ghoul, Horde ghoul and Abyssal ghoul, but also sub-variations of the Abyssal Ghoul, with the Abyssal Ghoul Hungerer and the Abyssal Ghoul Myrmidon, a warrior-type variation which is CR 23 but still hilariously only has 1 HP because of 4e Monster Role distribution.
    Next time, after the guy whose hands are not hands, we'll have the otter whose tail is actually a hand. See you next time for the Ahuizotl!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-07-21 at 11:16 AM.
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  26. - Top - End - #446
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    Default Re: Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here



    You know, sometimes you don't need an aboleth, an odopi or a gelatinous cube to make a great monster. Being unique and original is usually a plus, as that means the monster designer had an idea for that monster rather than just wanting another monster. But sometimes, a simple 1:1 recreation of a mythological monster is all it takes to have an iconic design. And the Ahuizotl is exactly as weird as you need to be a D&D monster, and exactly as unkown as you need for people not to immediately recognize you as a mythological ripoff.


    Look at this. It's beautiful! It's not often that the 10 first results when you google a D&D monster's name are all from different sources, with so wildly different designs while still keeping the same identity. It gives so much power to a designer to take the most interesting parts from all the different lores. That's the power of taking a monster from mythology.

    The Ahuizotl is a very simple creature: a water-dwelling hyena-like beast with monkey legs and a fifth hand at the tip of its tail. But since it's an Aztec monster, it has to spread death in the most heinous and painful way possible. In short, the Ahuizotl lures people near its river by mimicking the sound of crying babies (which is equally effective and creepy and I love it), then drowns them by maintaining them underwater with its tail hand, and then eats them. But not whole. It likes to eat specifically nails, teeths and eyes. That's great. Just imagine finding a corpse with no eye, no tooth and no fingernail. There's not much than can set a scene better than that. And because creepiness must always go with actual violence, the D&D Ahuizotl can simply rip off the eyes of its opponents (blinding them) if it crits with its tail hand.
    And in the original myth, only a cleric could retrieve the body, as the Ahuizotl would know anyone who touches a corpse whose eyes were eaten by the Ahuizotl and either immediately try to lure them and eat them or curse them with gout, which would have been such a great ability to have for the D&D version (some sort of Scry and/or the ability to cast Curse on the first person who touches its victim that makes them want to approach the Ahuizotl's river, maybe?) but sadly wasn't kept.

    The problem is that as flavorful as these abilities (Blinding, Improved Grab to pin people underwater, Voice Mimicry), they aren't that good in actual game. Improved Grab on a Large creature is decent but not great, and the rest is an afterthought, except if you want to make a career as a stand-up comedian mimicking politicians' voices. The Ahuizotl is saved by its stats, which are pretty good for a 7 RHD Aberration. It has +10 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +2 Int, +4 Cha and +6 natural armor. In the end, the fact that it has hands (its front limbs are described as "monkey in form", on top of the obviously prehensile tail) and high intelligence means that it's better than other balls of stats like the brown bear, but its stats are a bit too spread out to be really good in one role. I think 6 RHD, DLA-1 is good, provided its front paws are considered prehensile and it can use a two-handed weapon with one of them and its tail. If it cannot, then 5 RHD is probably better.


    So that's the creature that will never have any use for the Prehensile Tail feat... Pretty good design, if a bit over-the-top in its creepiness. Next time, we will review the Aoa. And no that was not a yawn, that was the name of the monster, though we might yawn when we get there.
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2024-02-26 at 03:20 PM.
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  27. - Top - End - #447
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    NecromancerGuy

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    ·-/---/·- 01000001 01001111 01000001 ✌︎⚐︎✌︎


    Just imagine Escher is actually an elder titan.

    Oh, Juiblex, I'm having Will-o'-wisp flashbacks. Minus the interesting real-life lore.
    The aoa (pronounced ah-oh-ah, not to be mistaken with Ao the Hidden One, pronounced hey-oh) are the counterpart to the Xeg-Yi and Xag-Ya energons of the Positive and Negative Energy Planes (and we don't talk about the Outer Plane energons from Planar Handbook). If the Xeg-Yi is the Yin and the Xag-Ya is the Yang, then the aoa is the Wuji, the absence of Yin and Yang, and by extension, the incarnation of nullification. When the other energons emit blasts of energies and are very hard to affect with physical weapons (being incorporeal), the aoa only reflect energy to the caster and are very hard to affect through magical means (being corporeal but having sky-high reflective spell resistance). It was an actually good concept, but the execution is really not the best.

    The aoa come in two flavors: the Huge sphere and the Medium droplet. Both are Outsider (Extraplanar) and share a few traits, notably resistance 20 to all energies except acid, and especially reflective spell resistance: when a spell targetting the aoa fails to pierce its SR, it is instead bounced back to the caster. Better think twice before trying to Disintegrate, or to include it in your Slow spell. They are also immune to gaze attacks and reflect them as well. They can also eat magic by hitting things with their slam (Dispel Magic CL 7) and cannot hide since they reflect light (-6 to Hide checks).

    aoa droplet, 3 RHD:
    The smaller, "juvenile" version is actually very strong defensively for its number of RHDs. Its SR is an incredible 19+RHD, and the resistance to energies will protect it from most blasting. And if you thought it'd be easy to kill it with weapons, it has (perfect) flying 50ft, DR 5/magic (actually relevant at low level) and +8 Natural Armor, which is extremely good. It also has an extremely good stat distribution: -2 Str, +8 Dex, +6 Con, -6 Int, +4 Wis, +0 Cha, being specialized without completely tanking any one stat, except intelligence (which is compensated by the number of skill points of Outsiders and the decent skill list of Listen, Move Silently, Spot and Search). It's tanky, Dextrous and has good Wisdom. What, could we make a monk out of it? I mean, you could, but a monk with no item slot would be even more unbearable than the base thing.
    One of the big arguments for it being -0 is that it has bad offense, but come on, that's why we have class levels! Ardent is an extremely obvious choice, especially if Practiced Manifester allows the droplet to choose higher-level powers, in which case a droplet with ardent levels is almost indistinguishable from a pure ardent with a much better chassis. You might even want to take one or two levels of monk and Talashatora to gain even more AC and the ability to Stunning Fist your opponents if you're out of PP. Also, since you're very difficult to affect with debilitating spells and you can use Dispel Magic at will, you will be the go-to "healer of nonstandard conditions" for the party at the end of each fight. You don't mind 1d8 nonlethal damage in exchange for removing this Blindness/Deafness, do you? Now, the true problem of the droplet is in fact the most obvious: it doesn't have hands, it can't speak, and it doesn't have item slots. There are a few ways to use your WBL without any slot (plus slotless items, of course, and single-use items like skull talismans than you could crush under you), but it's definitely not optimal. Still, every creature with more than 3 Int understands at least one language, and the Communication Mantle is there if you want to speak, and of course do not underestimate the importance of body language!

    All in all, choosing this monster as your race will impact your whole campaign, and probably lead to some nice RP, but it has some very nice benefits to compensate for the lack of hand and speech. I am really reluctant to give it less than 2 RHD. Yes, its innate offense is lacking, but it makes great use of basically everything a manifester gives it, and it is an Outsider. If it starts blasting enemies, there is a good chance some of them will at least try casting a spell or two on it, and the amount of creatures with Gaze Attacks and no Knowledge (the Planes) is quite high indeed. I really think the best number is 3 RHD, DLA-0. I'm looking forward to people commenting on this one. I honestly think I may have given it +0 or even maybe +1 in the original thread.


    aoa sphere, 15 RHD:
    And now, the adult version. A CR 13 monstrosity, with its only notable difference with the droplet being that it is Huge, and that it has a new ability called Reflective Pulse. Basically, Greater Dispel 3/day, but dispelling magic items destroys them instead of disrupting them for a few rounds. Just use the "area dispel" version and you'll be fine. Its stats are marginally better than the droplet's, notably its Con, with a total of +2 Str, +8 Dex, +14 Con, -6 Int, +6 Wis, +0 Cha, +8 NA (compared to the droplet: +4 Str, +8 Con, +2 Wis). The Strength is actually one of the lowest in the whole game for Huge creatures. Hilariously, no Dex increase means that the total AC of the sphere is lower than the droplet's. Similarly, its SR is only 2 points higher than a droplet's, which for this thread means it has SR 10+RHD, which is... bad, compared to SR 19+RHD. At least it now has DR 10/magic. That's actually really bad... It doesn't even have a better skill list. Actually worse in melee combat than the black pudding, but decent utility and much better mobility and defense. Still extremely meh. It's only marginally better than the droplet if it's not in melee, and it's bad in melee. At least it has a lot of HPs. 4 RHD, DLA-6. The DNLA isn't higher only because of the good SR, and how overpowered Outsider RHD are.


    Damn, that took longer than I expected. These very specialized but socially inept creatures aren't easy to rate, especially without having ever actually played one. But you know what, if you can't play one, play a thousand! Next time, we will review the aquatic oozes, including the Bloodbloaters, the only Ooze swarm in the game! See you !
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-08-03 at 11:21 AM.
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  28. - Top - End - #448
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    I've always liked these, actually! They make so little sense! And I'll also have to agree with your analysis. Lantern Archons got a +3, and it's not like they have more hands than these fellers.

  29. - Top - End - #449
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Blub, blub, blub.

    Bloodbloater, 2 RHD, Diminutive swarm:
    Ever had one of those days where you'd want to be a pile of fried eggs with no intelligence or sense of self, and who cannot ever overeat as their body automatically expels the surplus of food? Well now you can, thanks to the Fiend Folio and the negative LA thread!
    No way to attack? No intelligence and -10 in other mental stats and constitution as its only good stat? Yyyyep, we have a Code Shrieker everybody! The bloodbloater swarm has really not much for it. +12 Con is good, but not when you have -8 Int, -10 Wis and -10 Cha, an ooze-shaped body, and are a swarm on top of it if you thought you'd be able to use items. The swarm attack deals the regular damage plus 1 point of strength (I can assure you it will never be important), and the swarm has nothing else going for it. It can't even use warlock invocations with Surrogate Spellcasting, since it has no limb. Oh, yeah, also it's aquatic, and it only has a 5ft movement speed on land. Because of course it does.
    It's really hard to find an actually good class. I think the best here is actually Spellfire Channeler, to use your great Constitution without having to use any other ability. Something like Dragonfire Adept 3 (maybe with Sudden Still), Incarnate 2, and Rogue 2. All in all, it's clearly too weak even with 1 RHD, so DLA-2 (remember it still has swarm immunities, so it's not completely horrendous, but it's still very very bad).

    Flotsam Ooze, 2 RHD, Medium:
    An ooze, in the water, transparent. Great. What else can you do? Ooooh, effectively infinite grapple check, this is nice (only works to engage and maintain a grapple, not to pin). Now you just need an ability that triggers when you grapple someone! You can... Make another slam attack against them. I mean, that's something at least, and the slam deals +1.5xStr. And with decent bonuses to physical stats (+4 Str, +0 Dex, +12 Con), you could make an acceptable warrior out of it. Problem is, of course, that it has no limbs, has 1 Wis and Cha, is mindless... Basically, it's still an ooze. At least it has a bit of natural armor. 1 RHD+1 LA, DLA-1

    Reekmurk, 5 RHD, Huge:
    Uuughhh, I don't like this one. It's basically an anemone, with a pitch black core, and hundreds of tendrils surrounding it and dealing acid damage and poison (1d6 damage, and 1d4 Dex/1d4 Dex) around it in a 10ft radius. It also has a lot of Dex, and in general physical stats (+12 Str, +14 Dex, +10 Con), but Ooze-level mental stats. It also only has one attack, a tentacle, and notably a speed of 40ft, which allows it to use its last ability: Stench. Any creature within 30ft must make a Fort save against being nauseated for 1d4 rounds. It's not stun or dazed, but it's the next best thing. Fortunately or undortunately, it has a lifelong immunity rather than only a 24 hours immunity. In the end, high stats (notably Str and Dex) and a few tricks, but very unwieldy, especially on land. I'll go with 4 RHD, DLA-1.


    I like how they understood how Oozes that were only defensive only dragged the game out, and created low-RHD Oozes with actual abilities. Which adds the bonuses that they aren't useless as PCs! But if you want "unplayable", I'll be happy to oblige, with the Bhut next time!
    Last edited by Beni-Kujaku; 2023-08-12 at 05:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

  30. - Top - End - #450
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    NecromancerGuy

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    In general, I like Undead. It's just an automatic creepy factor. I also like Incorporeal creatures. They create a lot of thinking on the players' part, and can jumpscare people by appearing from literally anywhere. Plus, it represents bhootas, which are basically weird indian ghosts impersonating people to do mischief, but recognizable to the fact that their feets are backwards and that they float a few millimeters off the ground (since the earth is sacred in indian culture). I should like the Bhut. But I don't. The fact that its arms are so thin and his jaw is dislocated like that make me find the whole design kind of goofy, like I don't know if I'm supposed to fear, laugh at, or pity it. It's really a far cry from the original humanoid ghost. And the fact that it generally appears inside a zombified corpse (not even a creepy one! It just looks alive, which is much worse) and only comes out if the body it inhabits is destroyed makes it look like just a phase 2 rather than an interesting monster in its own right. And finally, it's an incorporeal creature that can't go through walls. Lore-wise, it's intriguing, but mechanically, it's more boring than anything else.

    As often, Pathfinder does it better (or at least closer to the original myth, but I much prefer their version, although the absence of Earth Vulnerability is a bit disappointing. They call them Bhuta instead), and even the D&D 2e version is at least a decent impersonator with a society and the possibility of finding out about their identity through investigation rather than combat.


    As a PC, the Bhut has pretty interesting traits, with notably high stat bonuses for an incorporeal undead (+8 Dex, +4 Int, -2 Wis, +10 Cha, no Str or Con) that give it a good panel of classes (Binder, Warlock, Crusader) without being cut off of prestige classes (thayan gladiator and Kensai are an obvious choice). It also has a very strong incorporeal attack, which is described as a bite, dealing 1d12 with Improved Critical, but also injecting a Wis-damaging poison dealing 2d6/2d6 Wis damage. Unfortunately, the DC is based off constitution, and hence is pretty low compared to other creatures (and cannot be increased with point-buy). It can also deal Str damage to people viewing it (unfriendly, but also gives indefinite immunity to those affected, so you can vaccinate your party. Less useful against recurring villains), has hands to wield ghost touch items and weapons, somehow has Track as a bonus feat (though it has a Wis penalty), and of course has Corpsetheft. It can inhabit a dead humanoid body, which becomes a zombie capable of using full-round actions, and protecting the Bhut from harm. If the zombie is destroyed, the Bhut exits the corpse, unharmed. It's an interesting defensive ability, but it cuts your offensive power, and makes you corporeal. I guess you could use it a few times in stealthy situations.

    The Bhut is not focused enough. It deals both Wis and Str damage, can animate bodies, is incorporeal, but all these abilities are anti-synergistic with each other, with undeath reducing the poison's DC and incorporeality reducing the bite's damage, as well as Earth Vulnerability hampering the incorporeality. The best Bhut build is probably a simple incorporeal melee combatant using its bite mostly as an afterthought rather than as its main tactics, since the poison DC is so low (even with Thayan Gladiator, the stun DC is Str-based, and hence as low as the poison DC). In the end, being incorporeal is still good, and the stats are decent, so something like 6 RHD, DLA-1 seems okay.

    Next time, we will stay in Indian-inspired monsters, with the giant animated statue of Vishnu, the Blackstone Gigant! See you then!
    Resurrecting the Negative LA thread, comments and discussion are very welcome!
    Nice find! Have a cookie!
    Do you want to build monstrous characters with reasonable LA? Join the Monster Mash! Currently, round XII: One-Punch Monster!!! Come judge single-strike entries!
    Quote Originally Posted by H_H_F_F View Post
    3.5 allows you to optimize into godhood, yes, but far more importantly, it lets you optimize weak, weird, and niche options into relevance.

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