Negative LA-Assignment : Resurrection, but no diamond here

[Beni-Kujaku]

Paraceratherium, actually. Paraceratheriidae is a family; you want the genus from within.

I don't know, simply searching "Indricothere" on Wikipedia redirects to the family. I am but a humble human being who believes most of what this ultimate amalgamation of human knowledge tells me. But yeah, I have found it used to refer to both the family and the genus.

That's funny coming from you, after the thing with the Dire Rhinoceros.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I like rhinoceroses. It's a living tank with a built-in spear for a nose. It's one of the most metal of all currently living animals, and the horn plays a big part in it. The fact that it's mechanically bad in 3.5 does not diminish the original. If the real-life rhino is 100% cool, the 3.5 dire rhino is 60% cool and the indricothere is 0% (or maybe 10%, because Knock Back is a good ability).

Also, I absolutely love this. Why can't more Animals do actaulaay fun things?

Even WotC is not immune to the Guy at the gym fallacy. "If my dog can't do it, it takes a Magical Beast to do it."

Because indricotheria are kinda cool and kinda well known?

I accept your opinion and will not judge your taste, but I still want a Dimetrodon and an Archeopteryx. What about a deinotherium? It's just at the limit where you'd wonder if it is a real or fake animal. Where are my platypi and kangaroos, WotC you cowards!?

[Tzardok]

I accept your opinion and will not judge your taste,

Hey, I said "kinda"!

but I still want a Dimetrodon and an Archeopteryx.

Dimetrodon can be found in Dragon #318. Archaeopteryx doesn't appear in 3.x as far as I know, but there is one in Pathfinder.

Where are my platypi and kangaroos, WotC you cowards!?

You laugh, but I do have postponed project of both plebeian and paranormal platypodes for my homebrew thread. Maybe I'll revisit it sometime.

[Metastachydium]

I don't know, simply searching "Indricothere" on Wikipedia redirects to the family. I am but a humble human being who believes most of what this ultimate amalgamation of human knowledge tells me. But yeah, I have found it used to refer to both the family and the genus.

…and of these, only genus names are commonly used to denote a species or a specimen thereof. Hence my comment.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I like rhinoceroses. It's a living tank with a built-in spear for a nose. It's one of the most metal of all currently living animals, and the horn plays a big part in it. The fact that it's mechanically bad in 3.5 does not diminish the original. If the real-life rhino is 100% cool, the 3.5 dire rhino is 60% cool and the indricothere is 0% (or maybe 10%, because Knock Back is a good ability).

Mammals. Mammals, not animals (because BIRDIES win oin account of being BIRDIES). But yeah, fair.

Even WotC is not immune to the Guy at the gym fallacy. "If my dog can't do it, it takes a Magical Beast to do it."

A giant woolly rhinoceros at a gym is a fun mental image, though.

Archeopteryx

YES.

. What about a deinotherium? It's just at the limit where you'd wonder if it is a real or fake animal.

Gomphotherium is even funnier with that weird, long mouth. Also, Platybelodon. Just… Platybelodon. And man, doing something based on what the skeletons of such creatures imply they could have looked like to a layman is a dear old ambition of mine.

You laugh, but I do have postponed project of both plebeian and paranormal platypodes for my homebrew thread. Maybe I'll revisit it sometime.

Patrician. The word you're looking for is patrician. (Nobility is Magical!)

[Beni-Kujaku]

Kelp Angler

Sometimes you just want an ambush predator for aquatic campaigns that does better that a Sea Cat. The Kelp Angler looks like kelp who attacks with its leaves that is specialized in killing PCs. It only eats "large preys" and dwells in coastal waters. And it has the ability to dispel magic, specifically targetting people with Water Breathing magic, which seems like much too slim a target crowd to trigger an evolutionary pressure. All in all, the kelp angler would probably make a nice fight, but its abilities do not really fit its ecological niche.

- 11 RHD Large Aquatic Plant
- +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, -4 Int, +0 Wis, +2 Cha, +10 natural armor
- 20ft speed, 60ft swim. At least it can move on land. Surprisingly fast for an ambush predator.
- 4 kinda weak tendrils with Improved Grab and somehow no improved reach.
- A few CL 11 SLAs : 3/day—dispel magic, entangle; 1/day—confusion, displacement. Not absolutely bad (Dispel Magic is always good, and displacement improves your survivability further), but I fear you'd rather attack than take a standard action to use them.
- Immunity to bludgeoning and cold damage, fire resistance 20, blindsight 100ft, regeneration 10 bypassed by only acid. Pretty great set of abilities, though I wonder what is the difference between the kelp angler and the tendriculos that makes one weak to bludgeoning damage and the other immune.

That's a big assortment of pretty good abilities (defense is especially excellent) but no real theme, and the whole body shape is bad. Pretty hard to rate, and pretty hard to advance. Maybe 7 RHD? DLA-3? Open to suggestions (for LA and good class choice).

Next time, another aquatic thing that looks like it should be much weaker than it is, the kelpie!

[Metastachydium]

Sometimes you just want an ambush predator for aquatic campaigns that does better than a Sea Cat.

that does better that a Sea Cat.

better that a Sea Cat.

Sea Cat.

Who'd have thought!

which seems like much too slim a target crowd to trigger an evolutionary pressure

Look, it still beats working in retail what passes as reasonable for a Mimic.

I wonder what is the difference between the kelp angler and the tendriculos that makes one weak to bludgeoning damage and the other immune.

You try punching a bunch of ribbons floating in water!

That's a big assortment of pretty good abilities (defense is especially excellent) but no real theme, and the whole body shape is bad. Pretty hard to rate, and pretty hard to advance. Maybe 7 RHD? DLA-3? Open to suggestions (for LA and good class choice).

The answer is always Totemist (somehow)! But seriously, I could even see Psychic Warrior working out. It's a good class for natural attacks. Oh, and a demented one that (me being me) I'd totally try: Duskblade. I know, I know, -4 to INT (I hate you, WotC), but with RHD 7 there's just enough space left for 13 levels of Duskblade and all the iteratives to come online. Take Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike, and BOOM, seven Vampiric Touches per round!

[GreatWyrmGold]

And man, doing something based on what the skeletons of such creatures imply they could have looked like to a layman is a dear old ambition of mine.

Even if you only stuck to real incorrect reconstructions, you'd have plenty of material for a fun web supplement.

- 20ft speed, 60ft swim. At least it can move on land. Surprisingly fast for an ambush predator.

Cheetahs are ambush predators, too.

(I know what you mean, you're just not saying it well.)

All in all, the kelp angler would probably make a nice fight, but its abilities do not really fit its ecological niche.

I agree with this assessment. Improved Grab is a good start, but it should at least be able to constrict.

I wonder what is the difference between the kelp angler and the tendriculos that makes one weak to bludgeoning damage and the other immune.

One is made of brown algae, the other of green algae. Duh.

[Tzardok]

Isn't the tendriculos a bush?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Maybe, but it's a pretty shapeless bush.
(I actually think it looks more like moss, but that would ruin the joke.)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I guess you can beat around the bush.

[Satinavian]

I don't know, simply searching "Indricothere" on Wikipedia redirects to the family. I am but a humble human being who believes most of what this ultimate amalgamation of human knowledge tells me. But yeah, I have found it used to refer to both the family and the genus.

More importantly, Paraceratheriidae it is a plural form. Using that name for single animals is as grating as talking about e.g. petting a dogs.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Who'd have thought!

I know, not a high bar to pass. One might even say it's below sea level.

Look, it still beats working in retail what passes as reasonable for a Mimic.

Mimics are Aberrations, I'm not sure darwinism applies to them, especially since they reproduce by splitting like oozes and are widely accepted to be either created by wizard or imported from the Far Realms. But also, you have to consider the one argument that can justify the appearance of basically any trait : "it started as a courtship ritual", because transforming into the craziest thing is simply really cool, or, most probably, simple camouflage, since even their natural form resembles a mountain rock, down to the rock-hard skin. Those are not applicable to kelp anglers since, well, SLAs have no visual manifestation.

You try punching a bunch of ribbons floating in water!

I don't know, you try punching moss/an unrooted bush and tell me if it broke.

Even if you only stuck to real incorrect reconstructions, you'd have plenty of material for a fun web supplement.

Oh yes ! We need a D&D Bone War ! Like somebody found the skeleton of a Ha-Naga surrounded by the limbs of its victims and thinks it was some sort of creepy centipede-like thing, or an adventurer destroys a Skirr, thinks it was from a single creature, and describes something with a theropod body, bat wings and a bull head. Then another erudite points out that the "wings" should have been on the feet and that it only had ultra-large webbed feet to run on water and charge to impale preys on its horns.

More importantly, Paraceratheriidae it is a plural form. Using that name for single animals is as grating as talking about e.g. petting a dogs.

True. Sometimes you just want to pet a Paraceratheriida. But sometimes you want to pet them all !

[Beni-Kujaku]

Kelpie

2e : 420XP (CR 3)
Pathfinder : CR 4
5e : CR 2

3.x : CR 10
When something does not have enough interesting abilities, don't just pump the numbers to have a higher CR. It makes for a boring fight with no surprise.

The Kelpie, accurate to its origin in the scottish and irish folklore, is a humanoid Fey looking like a beautiful woman with the ability to change into a horse that dwells in lakes and rivers, luring people to ride them (I guess either literally or figuratively, in this case) only to drown them. Wait, didn't we just have that ? That's the second charming water-themed Fey after the Fossegrim, only with more shapeshifting, and the third monster after the Ahuizotl and the Kelp Angler with abilities specifically suited to drown adventurers. How many drowning-themed monsters does a single book really need !? The drowning rules don't even include a way to heal after the first round !

The Kelpie in 3.5 is a Large (in its horse form, which is its combat form) aquatic Fey with 10 RHD and decent-to-good melee stats (+14 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, +0 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha, +12 NA), two hooves with Trip (to make people fall in the water and drown them) and a secondary bite. It is as fast as a heavy horse (50ft land and swim), has cold and fire resistance 20, a few SLAs helping in social situation but not really in combat (Detect Thoughts at will, 3/day Charm Person and Emotion) and of course Alternate Form as a human.
We all know what happens when a Fey tries to fight in melee, and the Kelpie does not really have anything else to do, but like the Fossergrim the overall stats (and Fey skills making it an acceptable face) are good enough to save it from being completely useless. 6 RHD, DLA-3.


The etymology of "kelpie" is actually pretty weird and unknown, despite only being a few centuries old (around the 17-18th century). It may come from the scottish word for a colt (cailpeach), with maybe a contamination from "kelp". I guess someone said something in the form of "I swear that kelp was trying to drag me underwater and I just narrowly escaped" and the person they were talking to was immediately like "You mean there are colts that drown people ? What could they be capable of !?" and was off to write a fanfic. D&D even used the "kelp" part of it in 5e, making the kelpie a Plant type that just reforms itself into a woman or a horse while its skin keeps the algae's smooth and wet feel.
Next creature is a fun one : the giant rabbit mount that shares the rider's buff spells, the Kuldurath !

[PoeticallyPsyco]

So, fun RAW interaction for tripping in the water. Tripping doesn't make you fall down, it inflicts the prone condition. And the prone condition reads "You are on the ground". There are special exceptions for how this works with a flying creature... but none for a swimming creature. So if you trip someone swimming in a lake, they immediately plunge to the bottom (or other nearer source of ground, maybe).

Would a DM ever run it this way? No. But it's a very funny mental image, the Kelpie kicks you and you are immediately banished to the deepest depths of their watery home while your friends wonder what just happened.

[loky1109]

Mimics are Aberrations, I'm not sure darwinism applies to them, especially since they reproduce by splitting like oozes and are widely accepted to be either created by wizard or imported from the Far Realms.

If there are heredity and variability - darwinism applies.

[Metastachydium]

Even if you only stuck to real incorrect reconstructions, you'd have plenty of material for a fun web supplement.

Heh. Too true!

I agree with this assessment. Improved Grab is a good start, but it should at least be able to constrict.

Hence my idiotic Duskblade suggestion. Those strands of plant matter SCREAM for something fun to do about them.

Mimics are Aberrations, I'm not sure darwinism applies to them, especially since they reproduce by splitting like oozes and are widely accepted to be either created by wizard or imported from the Far Realms. But also, you have to consider the one argument that can justify the appearance of basically any trait : "it started as a courtship ritual", because transforming into the craziest thing is simply really cool, or, most probably, simple camouflage, since even their natural form resembles a mountain rock, down to the rock-hard skin. Those are not applicable to kelp anglers since, well, SLAs have no visual manifestation.

Ah, well. You're right. I should just be grateful that this time the (relatively speaking) intelligent Plant is at least not an artificial creation or possessed by something WotC believes has the right to think.

I don't know, you try punching moss/an unrooted bush and tell me if it broke.

I'm not punching other PLANTIES! (But a bush is easier to hit, stiffer and does have bits that can actually break.)

Oh yes ! We need a D&D Bone War ! Like somebody found the skeleton of a Ha-Naga surrounded by the limbs of its victims and thinks it was some sort of creepy centipede-like thing, or an adventurer destroys a Skirr, thinks it was from a single creature, and describes something with a theropod body, bat wings and a bull head. Then another erudite points out that the "wings" should have been on the feet and that it only had ultra-large webbed feet to run on water and charge to impale preys on its horns.

[EVIL laughter.]

[GreatWyrmGold]

If there are heredity and variability - darwinism applies.

This, this, exactly this. Darwin didn't derive the principles of natural selection from natural laws that wouldn't be discovered until the 20th century, he derived them by recognizing that changes which happened during human history (e.g. livestock breeding) could be attributed to basic qualities which populations of animals were known to have, whether domesticated or wild. The details will differ from paradigm to paradigm, but the only way to prevent evolution by natural selection is to prevent variability or heredity.

Maybe mimics could avoid evolving if their creation and reproduction are all managed by some handwavey magical force. Like, they're not animals, but creations of some Elder God of Deceit, and each new mimic that comes into existence is created by that god shedding a single tear onto the Material Plane. Or if mimics are made of some sort of unique matter, and rather than passing on genes, reproduction is just a mimic splitting into two identical masses of mimic matter.

But if a half-dragon mimic is possible, it's hard to argue that heredity and variability don't apply to them.

[Beni-Kujaku]

If there are heredity and variability - darwinism applies.

Oh, I absolutely agree. What we call "darwinism" is just the byproduct of faulty replication of DNA making offsprings similar but ever-so-slightly different from the parent followed by the slightly less probable reproduction of the part of the new generation without a certain trait.

Maybe mimics could avoid evolving if their creation and reproduction are all managed by some handwavey magical force. Like, they're not animals, but creations of some Elder God of Deceit, and each new mimic that comes into existence is created by that god shedding a single tear onto the Material Plane. Or if mimics are made of some sort of unique matter, and rather than passing on genes, reproduction is just a mimic splitting into two identical masses of mimic matter.

Instead, my point was exactly that. Mimics are thought to be wizard-made (thus, they do not require evolution to reach their current state) or from the Far Realms (where changes in a species do not occur through DNA variation but rather through primal chaos), which does not imply the necessity of variability. Furthermore, they reproduce asexually by splitting, which at least implies the absence of gene shuffling. We have no real evidence of evolution for mimics. Even greater mimics are thought to be either old mimics or magically enhanced ones, rather than an offshoot.

But if a half-dragon mimic is possible, it's hard to argue that heredity and variability don't apply to them.

There are two problems in that argument. The first one is its premise. ARE half-dragon mimics possible in-universe? The rules allow it, but they also allow half-dragon Tarrasques, or half-dragon Asmodeus, which you'll agree are quite nonsensical. And the second problem is the question of if such a half-dragon would have been conceived through heredity rather than injecting dragonness in another creature through a ritual of some sort. After all, half-dragon oozes are also allowed by the rules and, well, reproduction for oozes is not typically one that involves two parents. To cite the BoEF, "One Ooze, idiot damages Ooze, two Oozes.". They're surprisingly close to mimics in that regard.

[Morphic tide]

It could well be that Mimics operate more on Lamarckian evolution, where they undergo personal changes that are passed to whatever manner of offspring they have. Seems fitting for hard-to-describe shapeshifters.

[Metastachydium]

half-dragon Tarrasques, or half-dragon Asmodeus,

(Do I get yelled at if I bring up the planet of Tarrasques and how Asmodeus is the kind of person who would go back in time to be his own parent with a Dragon?)

After all, half-dragon oozes are also allowed by the rules and, well, reproduction for oozes is not typically one that involves two parents.

Dragons: Horny Enough to Find a Way!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Instead, my point was exactly that. Mimics are thought to be wizard-made (thus, they do not require evolution to reach their current state) or from the Far Realms (where changes in a species do not occur through DNA variation but rather through primal chaos), which does not imply the necessity of variability. Furthermore, they reproduce asexually by splitting, which at least implies the absence of gene shuffling.

Point 1: Natural selection applies to asexually-reproducing organisms, too. Look at that long-term evolution experiment with E. coli. If there's no mechanism to prevent mutation or something, mimics will evolve.

Point 2: Who cares if mimics were wizard-made? Pugs are an artificial breed, but if you stuck a bunch of pugs in a cave or something for a thousand years, they'd start to evolve longer snouts so they wouldn't get BAOS so often. Whatever mimics' origins, they have been living wild in dungeons long enough that their origins have been lost to the mists of time.

Point 3: Please reread this excerpt.

or from the Far Realms (where changes in a species do not occur through DNA variation but rather through primal chaos), which does not imply the necessity of variability.

Do you know what "variability" means? Because DNA is only involved insofar as most studies of variability focus on organisms with DNA.

There are two problems in that argument. The first one is its premise. ARE half-dragon mimics possible in-universe? The rules allow it, but they also allow half-dragon Tarrasques, or half-dragon Asmodeus, which you'll agree are quite nonsensical. And the second problem is the question of if such a half-dragon would have been conceived through heredity rather than injecting dragonness in another creature through a ritual of some sort. After all, half-dragon oozes are also allowed by the rules and, well, reproduction for oozes is not typically one that involves two parents. To cite the BoEF, "One Ooze, idiot damages Ooze, two Oozes.". They're surprisingly close to mimics in that regard.

Since you mention the absurdity of putting inherited templates on a unique creature like the tarasque, I feel obligated to point out that Robert Wiese did exactly that in an Elite Opponents article for WotC's actual website. Sadly, nobody saved it on the Internet Archive, but the text was saved here.
Anyways, onto my actual argument.

The tarasque is explicitly stated to be a unique creature. However, if the relevant flavor text had been left out of the Monster Manuals—if the book never said it was unique, but also didn't explicitly state that they were common—it would be absurd to insist that half-dragon tarasques were nonsensical. Or in less abstract terms, if I said half-fiend gnolls are nonsensical because gnolls reproduce asexually, nobody would take me seriously.

It's possible that mimics are homogeneous masses of unique matter, or reproduce by summoning copies of themselves, or reproduce themselves perfectly and without error, or sterile and finite, or something. But these are all unusual, specific, and unsupported.
Saying "we don't know for 100% certain that mimics can evolve" is technicially true. Saying "mimics probably don't evolve" is absurd.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Point 1: Natural selection applies to asexually-reproducing organisms, too. Look at that long-term evolution experiment with E. coli. If there's no mechanism to prevent mutation or something, mimics will evolve.

GWG, I think we are in agreement everywhere, but we just do not express it the same way. You're saying mimics will evolve is they mutate. I agree, I'm just saying we don't know for sure if they can naturally mutate on the Material Plane without the influence of wizards/the Far Realms. Bacteria can evolve because their DNA faultly replicates at each mitosis. My point was that we don't know if mimics have DNA they can faultly replicate as they grow, or any other mechanism by which the two mimics resulting from fission can be ever-so-slightly different from their "parent".

Point 2: Who cares if mimics were wizard-made? Pugs are an artificial breed. Whatever mimics' origins, they have been living wild in dungeons long enough that their origins have been lost to the mists of time.

Pugs were not "created", they were "selected". Pugs (and, effectively, all domesticated animals) were chosen generation after generation to conform to various criteria, but they mechanism by which they progressively gained these criteria is just natural variability due to faulty replication and combination of genes from two parents.

Point 3: Please reread this excerpt.
Do you know what "variability" means? Because DNA is only involved insofar as most studies of variability focus on organisms with DNA.

Same as the first point, I was only talking about DNA as the most general source of mutation/variability. What I was trying to put across was that all the for-sure known sources of variability for mimics (magic and primordial chaos) are not applicable to mimics simply living on the Material Plane, and that reshuffling of characteristics through gendered reproduction does not apply either, which leaves no obvious evidence for variability (once again, on the Material Plane, without magic intervention). That is all.

Since you mention the absurdity of putting inherited templates on a unique creature like the tarasque, I feel obligated to point out that Robert Wiese did exactly that in an Elite Opponents article for WotC's actual website. Sadly, nobody saved it on the Internet Archive, but the text was saved here.

Yeah, those were fun. They still pointed out that there was only one Tarrasque per world, with it seemingly taking on characteristics of said world (see the Woodling Tarrasque said to be fit for a forest world). It could actually be a pretty interesting way to understand the Tarrasque as an incarnation of the "soul of the Material Plane"

if I said half-fiend gnolls are nonsensical because gnolls reproduce asexually, nobody would take me seriously.

I would certainly question the process involved, yes. Maybe ask about the possibility of the original hyena being half-fiend itself, or the Fang of Yeenoghu. I would research about the way gnolls reproduce and wonder where some fiendish influence could be involved. And since there are a lot of moving parts in gnoll reproduction, there are a lot of places where it could happen.

It's possible that mimics are homogeneous masses of unique matter, or reproduce by summoning copies of themselves, or reproduce themselves perfectly and without error, or sterile and finite, or something. But these are all unusual, specific, and unsupported.
Saying "we don't know for 100% certain that mimics can evolve" is technicially true. Saying "mimics probably don't evolve" is absurd.

Well, once again, we agree perfectly. Thank you for summarizing this argument in four lines (though I would have added a fifth saying that the opposite stance, that mimics naturally mutate and evolve like animals despite being fully magically-created aberrations, is no more supported). And I am pretty sure I never said "mimics probably don't evolve". If I'm not mistaken, my words were "I'm not sure darwinism applies", and "We have no real evidence of evolution for mimics.". Sooo, let's shake on it ?

(Do I get yelled at if I bring up the planet of Tarrasques and how Asmodeus is the kind of person who would go back in time to be his own parent with a Dragon?)

Yes, bad Meta, bad ! We don't talk about Falx !... Crap.

Dragons: Horny Enough to Find a Way!

What? They make good lubricant. I'm sorry.

[loky1109]

Beni, it's highly likely mimics has DNA. They eat regular organic and breath oxygen, so they should have same metabolism (in basic) and general structure plane. DNA, RNA, proteins, cells, tissues, organs, etc. After all, wizards created they from something, not just from their ill dreams.

[Tzardok]

I'll play devil's advocate here and say that it's highly unlikely that mimics have DNA, simply because we don't have proof that anything in D&D has DNA. Would certainly make half-dragons simpler to explain if we don't have to wonder about genetic compability.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Kuldurath

Remember to feed your Kuldurath. An all-knight regime is not good for their well-being.

- That's no ordinary rabbit! That's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on! It has a kill streak that's a mile long!! It's got huge sharp teeth, it can leap about... Look at the bones!
"Right! Silly little bleeder. One rodent stew coming up... AAAAH! It's got me!!"
- I warned you, but did you listen to me? Oh, no, you knew it all, didn't you? Oh, it's just a harmless little bunny, isn't it? Well, it's always the same. I always tell them--
" Kill it! Please! Kill the rat! Kill the rat! Kiltherat! Kildarat! Kildu... Kuldarath, Kuldurath, Kulduraaaaaaa.... "
(Reenactment of the events leading to the naming of the new breed of giant rabbits now used as mounts for the Rilmani knights of Concordant Opposition)

The Kuldurath is described as a bunny-shaped rhinoceros with no horn and boar tusks. That's a whole thing. They are a seemingly naturally occuring species of magical beasts in the Outlands (the true neutral plane), and their affinity with electricity, immunity to fear effects as well as the ability to somehow share the spells affecting their rider made them perfect mounts for the ferrumach (a kind of Rilmani, the neutral exemplars). They only appeared in 3e, which is both a shame and unsurprising. Not enough personality by themselves as they really only exist as mounts, and since 5e Rilmani lost their fear aura, there was no reason to give them specifically mounts immune to mind-affecting effects.

Fortunately, that last point (along with decent physical stats) actually makes them pretty good PCs, though dependant on the rest of the party for its most original ability. Sharing the DR, energy resistances and the effect of all Personal spells on their rider is actually pretty cool, if only to have a gish on top of you casting True Strike, Bladeweave and Wraithstrike just before you ubercharge the opponent to oblivion. But it's also useful to share True Seeing, Bite of the WereX (gish are your friends), Blinding Beauty just before your date, to gain twice as many questions from Contact other Planes with no risk, and for the hilarity that is a wizard under the effects of Alter Self trying to mount you. Of course, the problem is that your resident wizard will rarely accept to come with you in melee, because they are a squishy little ball of cotton candy that does not like either the blades of your enemies or your own electricity aura (this ability goes only one way, you do not impart your electricity immunity to your rider). Thus, Share Defenses will be, at best, unreliable, and at worst completely irrelevant. But if you have a Duskblade cohort, on the other hand....

- 9 RHD Large Extraplanar Magical Beast
- +10 Str, +8 Con, -6 Int, +4 Wis, +6 NA. Oooh, that is very bad. Worse stats than a Dire Boar does not bode well.
- One gore with Powerful Charge, two secondary kicks. Decent damage, but no way to do iteratives is sad.
- 60ft speed, 30ft climb. Not sure why a rhino-bunny can climb, but sure, that speed is solid.
- Trample, electricity aura (3/day, 2d6 electricity to all creatures in a 30ft radius as a free action. Even at will, that would be underwhelming)
- Immune to electricity and mind-affecting effects, Share Defenses with the rider.
- No racial bonus to Jump checks, seriously?

Full BAB is good, stats are bad, abilities are C minus. You'll spend a lot of time trying to make it work, and it will be funny, but it will not be strong. 5 RHD, DLA-3
Next time, the elemental that is 33% air, 33% fire, 33% evil, and about 40% superfluous hit dice, it's the living holocaust ! (Now WW2-jokes free, for your convenience!)

[Metastachydium]

" Kill it! Please! Kill the rat! Kill the rat! Kiltherat! Kildarat! Kildu... Kuldarath, Kuldurath, Kulduraaaaaaa.... "

…
That makes so much sense.

or your own electricity aura (this ability goes only one way, you do not impart your electricity immunity to your rider). Thus, Share Defenses will be, at best, unreliable, and at worst completely irrelevant. But if you have a Duskblade cohort, on the other hand....

Heh. I'm playing a(n Oslecamo's )Shambling Mound with a Duskblade level in a game right now. That one hit home. (Also, Mechanatrices are a thing. Heck, they are in this very same book, I believe.)

- One gore with Powerful Charge, two secondary kicks. Decent damage, but no way to do iteratives is sad.

Rapidstrike? It takes a few levels, but it's there.

- 60ft speed, 30ft climb. Not sure why a rhino-bunny can climb, but sure, that speed is solid.

I'm mostly just surprised it doesn't swim. (Just ask Jimmy Carter.)

- Trample, electricity aura (3/day, 2d6 electricity to all creatures in a 30ft radius as a free action. Even at will, that would be underwhelming)

At 5 RHD and with that speed, it's not bad for mook cleanup.

Full BAB is good, stats are bad, abilities are C minus. You'll spend a lot of time trying to make it work, and it will be funny, but it will not be strong. 5 RHD, DLA-3

At any rate, being a Special Mount type without also being a class feature is something, and being kinda party-friendly by design is a feature too. What would you advance them as, again? With a gish rider doing the buffing, simple Barbarian might be decent on that fron actually, building on the speed and buffing up those physicals a little.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Living Holocaust

Yes, fire whirls are extremely cool. Cool enough to make a monster out of them? Absolutely. Cool enough to make an interesting monster out of them? Let's not get crazy.

The living holocaust is a whirlwind of fire, that can transform into a bigger whirlwind of fire, constantly surrounded by an even bigger whirlwind of fire. It's also an absolute lunatic, aiming to burn everyone and everything, threatening people to burn them if they don't bring him more things to burn, and then burning them anyway. It's so over the top that even other fire elementals despise it and I imagine go out of their way to protest with signs such as "#NotAllFireElementals".

Since we're in Fiend Folio, the reason for this murder spree is obviously the influence of the Abyss, where this Elemental [Air, Fire, Extraplanar] usually resides. The initial inspiration for it probably comes from the alternate name for fire whirls : fire devils. It has continuous Gaseous Form, also known as "incorporeal, but without most of the benefits". In effect, considering the rest of its traits and abilities, this quality translates to "can pass through any opening, but can't run, can't manipulate items, loses all armor and natural armor bonus to AC, cannot use somatic, focus or material components". Surprisingly, the statblocks includes "[the living holocaust] can speak, cast spells that have only a verbal component[...]". Did they intend to make this thing able to cast spells? Or did they anticipate this thread? Was the living holocaust supposed to receive an official LA!? I have mixed feelings about this.

It's also Small, which is refreshing to see (there are only 5 non-swarm creatures smaller than Medium above CR 10), and pretty intelligent (Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16). I suppose it uses all this learning capability to know exactly what parts of the body to burn first to instill the highest amount of pain, terror and desperation. Oh, yeah, I forgot to say, despite its gaseous body, it can create semi-physical spikes of fire to surgically burn foes from within, and you know it will aim for the eyes. What an adorable little cutie pie!

Obviously, being a destructive force of nature is not really conductive to being a good PC, since most of your abilities engulf the whole battlefield in flames. Then again, rings of fire resistance are not that expensive and will not be such a bad investment.

- 15 RHD Small Elemental [Extraplanar, Air, Fire]
- 50ft (perfect) flying, Gaseous Form. It's absolutely awful, and gives way too many restrictions with none of the support that incorporeal creatures usually get. There's notably no way I know to ever give this thing items.
- No Str, +10 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +6 Cha, no natural armor, no Cha bonus to AC. The AC is extremely low and hard to improve, but the rest is decent. Maybe a rogue?
- Fiery Windspike. The holocaust's only means of actual attack, a natural attack with iteratives dealing 1d6 piercing+1d6 fire, that can also be chosen to hit as a touch attack to only deal 1d6 fire. It's actually a pretty good thing to have for a rogue. You don't have to worry about increasing your to-hit, only improving your dice of Sneak Attack.
- 30ft aura dealing 1d6 fire each round.
- Flaming winds : at will Control Winds (CL 10) that also deals 3d6 to each creature and object. Pretty cool-looking, and might burn wooden houses to the ground. Both the chip damage and the battlefield control are pretty good, but your party will hate you if they do not have fire resistance. Interestingly, since gaseous form is affected by winds, the holocaust can theoretically move at windstorm speed (51mph, or 450ft/round) through its own wind control.
- Whirlflame : like an Air elemental's whirlwind, but up to Large size, and deals 3d6 fire each turn to trapped creatures
- Regeneration 5 (cold or holy), DR 10/-, SR 9+HD. Good defenses. It's weirdly easier to cut this flaming tornado apart with a holy sword than it is to deal with it with magic.
- Burn, Air Mastery, as Fire and Air elementals.
- -10 to Hide, which changes to +10 when surrounded by fire (so probably after a few rounds of fight).


The living holocaust is similar to a swarm, with lots of area effects, nigh-irresistible attacks, but no ability to use items (you can't even throw skull talismans, or draw summoning circles or vestiges, or use invocations...) and questionable friendly fire. It is better in that it is able to use precision damage (rogue, initiators, spellthief) and worse in that it is extremely vulnerable to energy resistance and immunity. Consider three levels in Spellthief to reduce foe's resistances, but fire immunity is your full kryptonite and you'll need something else to do. Maybe a few levels of bard (many bard spells only have verbal components, and bardic music is always something to do when you can't damage the opponent). All in all, the living holocaust will always struggle in the late game, and not really be that good without a few levels, but it will basically be immortal if it has too few RHD. I guess 6 RHD, DLA-6 7 RHD, DLA-6 is good. I'm balancing between "even at 5 RHD it will be bad" and "it might be broken even with 7" so I'll go with my guts.


This monster consistently makes the list of monsters with the worst names in the game, and not only because of its unfortunate connotation (though it's obviously a big part of it), but also because "living something" gives almost no real indication of the nature of the monster. It's slightly better in french ("Elemental Holocaust"), and I actually like this name. Combined with the badassery of its abilities dragging the PCs towards a fire tornado, I do not actually dislike it. At least, I dislike it less than the next monster, the Lucent Worm.

[Metastachydium]

Yes, fire whirls are extremely cool. Cool enough to make a monster out of them? Absolutely. Cool enough to make an interesting monster out of them? Let's not get crazy.

Laugh I did. (Also, that guy on the picture is apparently so cool he naturally developed fire immunity (or immunity to fear, one of those two)).

Since we're in Fiend Folio, the reason for this murder spree is obviously the influence of the Abyss, where this Elemental [Air, Fire, Extraplanar] usually resides. The initial inspiration for it probably comes from the alternate name for fire whirls : fire devils.

Hm. That combined with how it's just ugly incarnate unkillable destruction, except against foes with fire immunity whom it simply cannot really harm (such as Devils) kind of screams "experimental weapon from the Nine Hells gone native".

Or did they anticipate this thread?

THEY SEE YOU.

the holocaust can theoretically move at windstorm speed (51mph, or 450ft/round)

1. I feel like they didn't think that through.
2. That's not a sentence I ever expected to encounter.

- -10 to Hide, which changes to +10 when surrounded by fire (so probably after a few rounds of fight).

+4 for size which is… Quite a lot.

- Regeneration 5 (cold or holy), DR 10/-, SR 9+HD

I guess 6 RHD, DLA-6 is good. I'm balancing between "even at 5 RHD it will be bad" and "it might be broken even with 7" so I'll go with my guts.

I'm just really not sure. 50' (perfect) (or 450' (you can't be serious)) flight with those defenses at ECL 6 is simply broken, and not really balanced at all by the lack of items. I mean, what, exactly, within 6th level WBL can give anything that can compete with these stats, mobility and defenses? And that's before the serious BFC capabilities, that aren't even fully dependant on not being immune to fire (because of the wind-wind element). I would consider going higher.

This monster consistently makes the list of monsters with the worst names in the game, and not only because of its unfortunate connotation

(But hey, at least it can't enter the Holocaust Warrior PrC (or has any use for the Holocaust Cloak stance)!)

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Sorry in advance for opening this can of worms, but... this is the intended use case for LA Buyoff. Something like 5HD with +2LA lets you start (significantly weakened) at ECL 7 where your powers are strong and your lack of items is less significant. Then 6 and 9 class levels later, at ECL 13 and 15, when items are better and your lack of scaling from class levels is more significant, you can buyoff a point of LA and be better balanced to the party again.

[Dalmosh]

or draw summoning circles or vestiges

According to ToM 'Drawing a [binding] seal requires the ability to mark a surface and 1 minute of concentration". It could draw the seal using Fiery Windspike to char, melt or corrode surfaces.
It just wouldn't have a way to then "touch" the seal during the binding ritual without resorting to something silly like Shapeshifter Druid or a loose interpretation of psicrystals, that would defeat the purpose.

Pretty competent Psion though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

-10 to Hide, which changes to +10 when surrounded by fire (so probably after a few rounds of fight).

I love when monster stats include little things like that. The living holocaust isn't exactly a sneaky monster, it probably won't ever want to hide, but it's bright, so throw in a note about how terrible it is at hiding.

This monster consistently makes the list of monsters with the worst names in the game, and not only because of its unfortunate connotation (though it's obviously a big part of it)...

To be fair, "holocaust" can also refer to a form of animal sacrifice where it's completely incinerated. To continue being fair, that's not the first thing anyone born after 1930 or so would think of when they hear the word "holocaust".