The LA Assignment Thread XII: the LA-bors of Heracles

[Tzardok]

Interesting one here. Ugh, so many psionic monsters online. Still, not all that psionic-y in flavour.

It's also not psionic in crunch. This is more like the aboleth in the SRD; it can use a few spells and slaps the label "psionics" on that to change the fluff a bit.

By the way, I wonder what a creature that naturally floats and lives in a plane that's mostly empty needs feather fall for.

[Lapak]

By the way, I wonder what a creature that naturally floats and lives in a plane that's mostly empty needs feather fall for.

I read that as less 'it needs it' and more 'it is capable of imposing that aspect of its natural environment on the world around it as necessary.'

[Remuko]

Oh. Yeah. Right. That. I'll agree that your +2 is entirely warranted and I could be convinced to go higher yet. (Where's Remuko when I need a conservative estimate?)

id been reading other peoples thoughts because im having trouble deciding how I feel about this thing. its very weird. i think ppl are making good points about how often this things abilities can actually be used. that will affect what its worth quite a bit.

[Temotei]

It's tough, but LA +2 sounds reasonable for now.

[loky1109]

I'm on +2 stance now, too.

[goodpeople25]

It's also not psionic in crunch. This is more like the aboleth in the SRD; it can use a few spells and slaps the label "psionics" on that to change the fluff a bit.

By the way, I wonder what a creature that naturally floats and lives in a plane that's mostly empty needs feather fall for.

Technically I don't think it has a mechanical floating ability, it has a fly speed with good maneuverability that can generally represent floating. Feather fall's lowered fall speed (feather fall being seen as the spell "fall damage immunity" is kind of a pet peeve of mine) can further emulate aspects of floating in the gray area of the rules that comes from this kind of simulated rules.

And after looking up fall speeds and the astral plane I found that feather fall has another use on subjective directional gravity planes like the Astral, you should be able to use it offensively to prevent your prey from utilizing the full fall speed that anyone can use to pseudo fly in the Astral.

[danielxcutter]

Aren’t there ways to drop someone’s flying speed?

[Metastachydium]

Aren’t there ways to drop someone’s flying speed?

Dunno. But there sure are lots of ways to disable a creature's flight (e.g. Undeniable Gravity^MH, Wingbind^Drac or the Weighty Utterance^DrM invocation).

[Beni-Kujaku]

Aren’t there ways to drop someone’s flying speed?

The thing is‚ movement in the Astral is not flying‚ and would not be affected by things reducing speed. Capping the falling speed to 60ft with an immediate action is actually quite good.

[danielxcutter]

So yeah, not pointless.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Can we move on to the Feverclaw?

[Debatra]

Yeah, sorry about that. +2 for this, Feverclaw is up next.

[Debatra]

Feverclaw

Size & Type: Large Outsider (Evil)
Space/Reach: 5' by 10'/5'
HD: 14, 22 (Huge), 36 (Gargantuan)
Speed: 60'
Ability Scores: Str +10, Dex +16, Con +8, Int -4, Wis +4, Cha +0 - Net +34, one penalty
Natural Armor: 5
Natural Weapons: Four Primary Claws (1d6 plus poison), One Primary Gore (1d10), one Secondary Probuscis (1d4 plus 1d4 Cha Drain)
Skill List: Balance, Hide (+8 racial), Jump, Listen, Move Silently (+8 racial), Spot, Tumble
Body Shape: Bald, Six-Legged Tiger
Speech (Languages): No (Understands Abyssal, Infernal, and Common "to a limited extent")
CR: 14
WotC LA: -
Our LA: +0

This thing is something to behold, so I'm actually going to start off with its description:

A feverclaw measures about 14 feet in length and weighs nearly 1,400 pounds. The beast looks vaguely like a bald, six-legged tiger, with shiny black skin that resembles flexible obsidian. It has no neck to speak of. Two pairs of taloned arms rise out of the center of its shoulders just behind its trowel-shaped head. Six dead-black insectoid eyes form a "V" shape atop its head, and a long blood-red horn curves up from its snout. Its mouth, a writhing mess of tiny hooked grasping tendrils, lies on the underside of the head. When it attacks, a long, red, prehensile feeding proboscis tipped with a hollow bone lancet extends on a dripping fleshy stalk. The feverclaw radiates a cloying, stinking heat when in motion; the bitter stench of this heat is unmistakable to those who have been lucky enough to survive an attack by one of these creatures.

The feverclaw seems somewhat intelligent, but uses all of its intelligence to taunt and torment its prey. The creature feeds on the emotions of its victim. One may think that, given its method of attack, fear would be its favorite flavor. But hope is the sweetest nectar to the feverclaw: It delights in taunting and toying with its prey, repeatedly releasing it and then pouncing again just as the victim is about to reach safety, quickly siphoning out the hope through its feeding proboscis with noisy relish.

That out of the way, we're starting off with immunity to mind-affecting, fire, poison, paralysis, slow, sleep, and any temporal effects. ...Time Stop is listed as an example here, so I'm guessing that worked differently in 3.0? Because in 3.5 it's a misnomer because it actually makes the caster speed up to the point where everything else just seems frozen. What is there even to be immune to? Does it get to act during another creature's Time Stop spell?

Anyway, we also have SR 26 (non-scaling, but still good at this level), DR 30/+3 (which would probably be best converted into 15/magic and good - for comparison the Yuan-Ti Anathema also had that particular conversion, and Feverclaws are neutral on the Law-Chaos axis so neither Silver nor Cold Iron are obvious), and a constant Blur effect. Its Alacrity ability gives it an extra "partial action" (3.0-speak for Standard actions) each round and an untyped +4 to AC while not flat-footed. It can Pounce, and has Improved Grab for anything smaller than itself, automatically hitting the victim with its probuscis on a successful grab. It can Freeze In Place, holding perfectly still for a full round to gain a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks.

The poison from its claws deals initial damage of 1d6 Wisdom damage, and is particularly fast-acting. The secondary damage of 1d6 "permanent Constitution damage" (Did 3.0 have Drain as a seperate thing from damage? Because that looks like Drain.) occurs only a single round later. Keep in mind it has four of those things per round, and can Pounce. The Fortitude save appears to be Con-based.

A creature struck by a Feverclaw's probuscis must make a(n apparently) Charisma-based Fortitude save or take 1d4 Charisma drain, which is doubled on a critical hit. The Feverclaw heals five HP when it drains a creature (ten on a crit), and gains the excess as temporary HP. It can also empathetically communicate with a creature it is feeding upon.

So... Up to this point, we've been mostly silent on whether or not you keep the default creature's feats. But either way, you may want to keep Spring Attack given what a Feverclaw can do with it. If a Feverclaw Spring Attacks, it can attempt to Hide at a -20 penalty while finishing its movement (as if sniping), even while being observed. It can use this to hit-and-run, or even to drag off a creature it has Improved Grabbed without ever alerting the victim's companions. I kind of wish that were a general rule. It sounds neat.

[Tzardok]

That out of the way, we're starting off with immunity to mind-affecting, fire, poison, paralysis, slow, sleep, and any temporal effects. ...Time Stop is listed as an example here, so I'm guessing that worked differently in 3.0? Because in 3.5 it's a misnomer because it actually makes the caster speed up to the point where everything else just seems frozen. What is there even to be immune to? Does it get to act during another creature's Time Stop spell?

Propably. I've seen something similiar once in a creature in the Pathfinder SRD. The Time Dimensional has immunity to time based effects, which includes a sentence on how it can act normally during another one's time stop. (I also made something similiar in my hombrew thread; the transitional has a 50% chance of acting normally during other people's time stop.)

(Did 3.0 have Drain as a seperate thing from damage? Because that looks like Drain.)

I think that's just a mistake. IIRC a relatively common mistake in some monster descriptions is calling drain "permanent damage".

[danielxcutter]

I know one of the Abominations can move during a Time Stop. The incorporeal one.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I know one of the Abominations can move during a Time Stop. The incorporeal one.

Yeah, but that's because it has Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). It copies any Time Stop cast within 300ft. Here, the feverclaw doesn't seem to have any limit to its ability. I assume creatures like that with link to time (like the Dragon Magazine time dragon) always move at the fastest time rate in the plane. Interestingly, that makes them nigh-invincible in an universe with lots of high-level casters where a time stop is cast every minute or so. But also quite disturbing. Good thing it can communicate telepathically with its prey, or a typical conversation with it would sound like
-And now you shall know pain, as I'll plunge my proboscis deep in your [//] pineapples that fell on my head some time ago which made me batsh...[//]...ow of the year, nay, of the century! No one would miss you losing your [//] keys that I left inside my car and HE DIDN'T EVEN [//] ask you to go on a date, seriously, you're such a good listener and I love [//] cutting your throat and injecting you with some of the deadliest poison the Nine Hells have ever [//] cooked with granny... Are you even listening? It feels like you've been spacing out? I'll write you an exam at the end of [//] the WORLD! Time is moving aga... [//]inst us! We have to get out of here ! Take your friends with me and we'll [//] jump into the lava to kill him! You got all of that? Let's go!

[Frostmoon]

Propably. I've seen something similiar once in a creature in the Pathfinder SRD. The Time Dimensional has immunity to time based effects, which includes a sentence on how it can act normally during another one's time stop. (I also made something similiar in my hombrew thread; the transitional has a 50% chance of acting normally during other people's time stop.)

I know one of the Abominations can move during a Time Stop. The incorporeal one.

Adding on to this: one of the D&D video games (I believe it was Baldur's Gate: Black Pits 2, so 2e) had immunity to Time Stop equaling the ability to move through the spell, no matter who casts it. So, we've got precedent here on what Time Stop immunity actually looks like.

Also, since this thing is somewhat cat-like, would it count for cat feats? :3

[Beni-Kujaku]

Anyway, I want to like everything here. Alacrity, Pounce, nice ability scores, Outsider type (making the -4 Int almost irrelevant), a great poison that can be applied to any kind of claw (Totemist is an easy progression, maybe with a rogue dip?), immune to mind-affecting, and good SR and DR. However, no manipulator barring Gloves of Man, no reach, lowish natural armor and -4 Int make me think that it is barely enough for 14 RHD. The real problem is how many things are immune to poison at this level (between 1/3 and 1/2 of monsters above CR 14). If it had 12 or 13 RHD, I'd have said LA+0 without a second thought. With 14, I think LA-0 is more appropriate.

[loky1109]

I say +0 LA for this kitty.

[Metastachydium]

(Evil)

(…)

It delights in taunting and toying with its prey, repeatedly releasing it and then pouncing again just as the victim is about to reach safety, quickly siphoning out the hope

Yup. That jerk's a cat alright.

Anyway, I want to like everything here. Alacrity, Pounce, nice ability scores, Outsider type (making the -4 Int almost irrelevant), a great poison that can be applied to any kind of claw (Totemist is an easy progression, maybe with a rogue dip?), immune to mind-affecting, and good SR and DR. However, no manipulator barring Gloves of Man, no reach, lowish natural armor and -4 Int make me think that it is barely enough for 14 RHD. The real problem is how many things are immune to poison at this level (between 1/3 and 1/2 of monsters above CR 14). If it had 12 or 13 RHD, I'd have said LA+0 without a second thought. With 14, I think [B]LA-0[B] is more appropriate.

With Pounce, that DEX score and especially Alacrity this one just invites a comparison to whirlpounce barbarian – and it handily pulls ahead. Even with Gloves of Man, it still has two extra attacks from the remaining claws plus one (or something else entirely, like the chance to activate one of those pesky standard action command magic items) from Alacrity. NA is low, but it also has a +4 untyped armour bonus that applies to touch. It has all good saves plus a blanket immunity to mind-affecting. A barbarian needs an INT score of 14+ to match its skill points/level, and the skill list is not half bad. With that many RHD it will never be anything other than a beatstick, but it outbeatsticks quite some beatsticks with ease. The poison? It's a ribbon alright, but using it costs nothing (it is carried by what this ugly does anyway) and if it works…

I'll go with a tentative +0, but +1 doesn't seem outlandish.

[Frostmoon]

Also: immunity to Timestop, while circumstantial, is exceptionally useful. Enemy lich uses the spell? Congrats, this beatstick can go and attack it. An ally uses the spell? Congrats, now you've got TWO TEAM MEMBERS who can actually act during it!

I'll vote a conservative +0 here. :3

[Beni-Kujaku]

Also: immunity to Timestop, while circumstantial, is exceptionally useful. Enemy lich uses the spell? Congrats, this beatstick can go and attack it. An ally uses the spell? Congrats, now you've got TWO TEAM MEMBERS who can actually act during it!

I'll vote a conservative +0 here. :3

Being able to act with an opponent is great. Being able to act with an ally is a bit disappointing. The Feverclaw is a beatstick first, and basically, only. It won't be able to deal any damage to its target during the Time Stop, and has no innate ability that use its actions to buff itself. Now, you could of course stock up on items for such an eventuality, but that's a bit too circumstancial to be optimal expenses.

[Debatra]

I mean, if you have an ally that can Time Stop, you may as well at least grab a few extra potions.

[InvisibleBison]

However, no manipulator barring Gloves of Man

I don't think this is correct. Even if you rule that the feverclaw's arms can't be used to manipulate things (and I don't know why you'd do that), its proboscis is explicitly described as prehensile. Maybe it can't wield a weapon, but it can certainly manipulate things.

[Frostmoon]

Being able to act with an opponent is great. Being able to act with an ally is a bit disappointing. The Feverclaw is a beatstick first, and basically, only. It won't be able to deal any damage to its target during the Time Stop, and has no innate ability that use its actions to buff itself. Now, you could of course stock up on items for such an eventuality, but that's a bit too circumstancial to be optimal expenses.

Ah, I see why our interpretations were different. Pathfinder's Time Dimensional replicates the effects of Time Stop on itself when some one else casts it; the Time Stop immunity I mentioned lets the immune creature act as if Time Stop didn't exist -- as in, it can still take whatever actions it wants, completely unimpeded by the rules of spell. Thus, attacks, debuffs, and the like are all doable.

So, this once again seems to circle back to what Time Stop immunity even means.

[danielxcutter]

In 3.5e, it appears to generally be capable of attacking the Time Stopped caster. Which I'd say is pretty good once you start fighting things that can use it, I guess.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I don't think this is correct. Even if you rule that the feverclaw's arms can't be used to manipulate things (and I don't know why you'd do that), its proboscis is explicitly described as prehensile. Maybe it can't wield a weapon, but it can certainly manipulate things.

Considering it's described as similar to a six-legged tiger and has 4 claws, I'd guess the four mentioned "arms" are just its forelegs. If they are similar to human arms, then the Feverclaw is much much better. I didn't notice the proboscis was described as "prehensile". If it's the same meaning as Prehensile Tail, then you might even hold a weapon with this thing. Great!

Ah, I see why our interpretations were different.

Ooooh, yeah. I really don't think that would work like that, considering the reason you can't affect creatures is because they are in a different time stream than you, but it would be ridiculous. Honestly, the most reasonable way to rule all of this is to give it Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). That's how the ELH does it, and it avoids all the balancing and weirdness of having all Time Stops cast everywhere affecting you specifically.

[InvisibleBison]

Considering it's described as similar to a six-legged tiger and has 4 claws, I'd guess the four mentioned "arms" are just its forelegs. If they are similar to human arms, then the Feverclaw is much much better. I didn't notice the proboscis was described as "prehensile". If it's the same meaning as Prehensile Tail, then you might even hold a weapon with this thing. Great!

I can see why you'd interpret the description that way, but I don't think it holds up to a close reading of the description. For one thing, it seems odd for the limbs to be called legs in one sentence and arms in the next. For another, the arms are described as "ris[ing] out of the center of its shoulders just behind its trowel-shaped head". If the arms are meant to be its forelegs, this really doesn't make sense. The shoulders would have to be its rear legs', but that would mean all six of its legs are attached at the front of its body. I really do think the feverclaw is meant to have ten limbs.

[ixrisor]

I didn't notice the proboscis was described as "prehensile". If it's the same meaning as Prehensile Tail, then you might even hold a weapon with this thing. Great!

A prehensile tongue should be able to hold a weapon, but I’m not sure it could effectively wield it. It’s definitely able to manipulate objects though.

[Tzardok]

Ooooh, yeah. I really don't think that would work like that, considering the reason you can't affect creatures is because they are in a different time stream than you, but it would be ridiculous. Honestly, the most reasonable way to rule all of this is to give it Spell Stowaway (Time Stop). That's how the ELH does it, and it avoids all the balancing and weirdness of having all Time Stops cast everywhere affecting you specifically.

Maybe it just speeds up itself whenever someone in its vicinity uses Time Stop. That's certainly how I would rule it, that it synchronizes itself with the time streams of those close or something like that.