New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Death saves

  1. - Top - End - #1
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2023

    d6 Death saves

    Why for PC when the NPC/Monsters don't?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Maine
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by DMSenko View Post
    Why for PC when the NPC/Monsters don't?
    Technically they can we just tend to skip over it for convenience
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2021

    Default Re: Death saves

    The PHB even has a section on this.
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB p. 198 Monsters and Death
    Most DMs have a monster die the instant it drops to 0 hit points, rather than have it fall unconscious and make death saving throws.
    Mighty villains and special nonplayer characters are common exceptions; the DM might have them fall unconscious and follow the same rules as player characters.
    My take on it is that the reason death saves get skipped is to streamline combat. once a monster is reduced to 0, the players will move to finish it off, wasting time that could have been spent on the scene, or instead the DM will have to keep dealing with the repercussions of the players not finishing their enemies off, which increases the DM's workload massively for often minimal payoff.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Netherlands
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    For the same reason that a high level human can get tagged with a greatsword from a giant and be perfectly functional; D&D is a storytelling game, so the characters that are more important get more plot armor. And inversely, those that don't matter that much don't get as much, or get killed of quicker to move on.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Amnestic's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Castle Sparrowcellar
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualight View Post
    My take on it is that the reason death saves get skipped is to streamline combat. once a monster is reduced to 0, the players will move to finish it off, wasting time that could have been spent on the scene, or instead the DM will have to keep dealing with the repercussions of the players not finishing their enemies off, which increases the DM's workload massively for often minimal payoff.
    Yeah that's why I skip it. It's to keep things moving. Death saves for enemy NPCs only crops up for me when the enemy is particularly important, or the enemy force has healing capabilities - they can Healing Word a downed person just as much as the players can.

    Strictly, the streamlining does make it easier on players than giving death saves to everyone all the time. The chance of a nat 20, and having to spend attacks/actions to finish them would give those still standing more turns to live.

    But if I want things to be more dangerous it's probably easier to just toss another dice of damage on every creature than do death saves.
    DMing:
    Iron Crisis IC | OOC
    Cyre Red IC | OOC

    Playing:
    OotA IC | OOC

    Master Homebrew Index (5e)

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    In short, because PCs are special and nothing else is. Functionally, it's so players have a safety net when things don't go their way.

    Personally, I think it's the worst thing about the game pre-Tasha's. [GROGNARD ACTIVATED] Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous. Characters should die and die often. It shouldn't be celebrated but it darn sure should be expected. Back in my day, if your character dropped to 0 hp, they died. Too bad, so sad, move on.
    I really need a new avatar. Nah, I'm good.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Spamalot in the Playground
     
    Psyren's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by JonBeowulf View Post
    In short, because PCs are special and nothing else is. Functionally, it's so players have a safety net when things don't go their way.

    Personally, I think it's the worst thing about the game pre-Tasha's. [GROGNARD ACTIVATED] Adventuring is supposed to be dangerous. Characters should die and die often. It shouldn't be celebrated but it darn sure should be expected. Back in my day, if your character dropped to 0 hp, they died. Too bad, so sad, move on.
    As long as you're open and up front about it with your players during session zero and they all consent, having a "0HP = Death, no saves" houserule is a fine way to play.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Plague Doctor by Crimmy
    Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    BarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    Location
    Texas
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    As long as you're open and up front about it with your players during session zero and they all consent, having a "0HP = Death, no saves" houserule is a fine way to play.
    I've never done it with 5e games because most of my players were new to the hobby and it was part of how they learned to play... I mean, it's right there on the character sheet. I'm not going to take something away from them just because I'm old and grumpy. I save my house rules for limiting pop-up healing, recovering from exhaustion, awesome criticals, and such.

    Some of them are in a BECMI game I'm running and it took 4 character deaths for them to change their style. They now have the appropriate level of respect for the unknown.
    I really need a new avatar. Nah, I'm good.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    JNAProductions's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Avatar By Astral Seal!

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by JonBeowulf View Post
    I've never done it with 5e games because most of my players were new to the hobby and it was part of how they learned to play... I mean, it's right there on the character sheet. I'm not going to take something away from them just because I'm old and grumpy. I save my house rules for limiting pop-up healing, recovering from exhaustion, awesome criticals, and such.

    Some of them are in a BECMI game I'm running and it took 4 character deaths for them to change their style. They now have the appropriate level of respect for the unknown.
    I'm glad you acknowledge that it's a preference thing and not some kind of universal better option.
    I'm also glad that you're getting in a BECMI game that's as lethal as you like!

    Hope you and the players are having an awesome time. :)
    I have a LOT of Homebrew!

    Spoiler: Former Avatars
    Show
    Spoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
    Show

    Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
    Show

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Orc in the Playground
     
    OrcBarbarianGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2021

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by DMSenko View Post
    Why for PC when the NPC/Monsters don't?
    Because PCs dying sucks and is not fun. Monsters croaking is fun. Never let not-fun get in the way of fun.


    Occasionally, an NPC with pertinent information winds up getting perished (often by the PCs). So death saves can be used a safeguard to preserve the plot. Otherwise, let it all burn.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Death saves

    I do like that they are saves, and thus it's possible to, for example, get proficiency in them (see: Monk) or add the Paladin's Charisma to them.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Maine
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    I do like that they are saves, and thus it's possible to, for example, get proficiency in them (see: Monk) or add the Paladin's Charisma to them.
    What brings up the oddity that it's a saving throw that isn't tied to an ability score.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Zombie

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Death saves

    Same reason Batman is invincible, the hero gets a level of plot armor.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lizardfolk

    Join Date
    Jan 2008

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by DMSenko View Post
    Why for PC when the NPC/Monsters don't?
    Generally because dying sucks, and the process for creating a new character is a pain in the ****, and the pain is more the higher level you are. The PCs are given multiple chances to not die, as well as providing multiple opportunities for party members to save them. D&D doesn't want PCs to die, but you will if you are incredibly unlucky and/or have poor group dynamics. Now, alternatively you could say that players don't get Death Saves...But I wouldn't go down that route unless it's common for your table to have multiple backup characters - not just in mind, but ready to go.

    But also I don't like ultra lethal games anyway. It just trains players to not be invested in their own characters (i.e; Leads to bad roleplaying) and ultimately leads to an arms race.

    NPCs "just die" because no-one cares. If the DM really cares about it, they have the option for a creature to go to Death Saves as per the PHB. Very, very, very rarely are players going to declare for non-lethal damage, because keeping hostile creatures alive is almost always more trouble than its worth - especially if the creature is non-Humanoid and/or can Misty Step. If you don't want the creature alive, just fast forward to dead. The game is easier that way.


    TL;DR. Because D&D isn't supposed to be hard. The game is rigged in the players' favour - including Death Saves being 10+, not 11+.
    Spoiler: My Mum Says I'm Cool
    Show
    Quote Originally Posted by Anuan View Post
    Cheesegear; Lovable Thesaurus ItP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycan 01 View Post
    Cheesegear, have I told you yet that you're awesome?
    Quote Originally Posted by MeatShield#236 View Post
    ALL HAIL LORD CHEESEGEAR! Cheese for the cheesegear!
    Quote Originally Posted by Shas'aia Toriia View Post
    Cheesegear is awesome

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    UNKNOWN

    Default Re: Death saves

    Logistics mostly. If I as the GM am running a combat with 3 bruisers as a front line, 15 skirmishers with bows and a couple of spellcasters to run interference, that's a lot of bodies and abilities to keep track of already.
    Also running death saves for all those creatures adds a lot of logistical overhead for not much payoff.

    That said, the game doesn't break if NPC's get death saves, you can absolutely run things that way if you like.
    I am rel.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Maine
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by rel View Post
    Logistics mostly. If I as the GM am running a combat with 3 bruisers as a front line, 15 skirmishers with bows and a couple of spellcasters to run interference, that's a lot of bodies and abilities to keep track of already.
    Also running death saves for all those creatures adds a lot of logistical overhead for not much payoff.

    That said, the game doesn't break if NPC's get death saves, you can absolutely run things that way if you like.
    You can use a modified version of undead fortitude or relentless if you want to add some form of it for NPCs with less bookwork.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location

    Default Re: Death saves

    Incidentally, there is an overall 59.5% chance of stabilizing at all with the standard death save rules and assuming no external interference nor bonuses to the save. That is including odds of getting a natural 20 on any of the first four rolls.

    Round up to 60%, and you can save yourself rolling the odds out for any given NPC you care enough to check for after combat is over by rolling a d20 and saying he died if he gets an 8 or less.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedMage125's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    I'm on a boat!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Dualight View Post
    The PHB even has a section on this.
    The Monster Manual also establishes this as a default rule, while the PHB couches it as something "most DMs" do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monster Manual, page 7
    A monster usually dies or is destroyed when it drops to 0 hit points. For more on hit points, see the ' Player's Handbook.
    Quote Originally Posted by JonBeowulf View Post
    In short, because PCs are special and nothing else is. Functionally, it's so players have a safety net when things don't go their way.
    Basically this. DSTs are a mechanic meant to relay the metagame concept that the PCs are special. This means, among other things, that despite the memes that circulate around, that a DM who has "intelligent monsters double tapping downed PCs" is metagaming.
    Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.

    Where do you fit in? (link fixed)

    RedMage Prestige Class!

    Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
    "Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."

    Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Meridianville AL
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Remove the "PC pops up on a 20" rule and you can simply declare that everyone gets death saving throws, and we're abstracting away the PCs going arround and putting a sword through the throat of every down enemy, because that's not all that heroic.

    Monsters rarely have healing powers, so other than the chance of a 20, it really doesn't matter much if they roll death saving throws.

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    stoutstien's Avatar

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Maine
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Remove the "PC pops up on a 20" rule and you can simply declare that everyone gets death saving throws, and we're abstracting away the PCs going arround and putting a sword through the throat of every down enemy, because that's not all that heroic.

    Monsters rarely have healing powers, so other than the chance of a 20, it really doesn't matter much if they roll death saving throws.
    When discussing NPCs and death saves it's rarely about them popping back up when you don't want them to as much as them not dying when you want them to.

    Outside of a few very specific spells and class features that allow you to gather not necessarily complete information from the dead, knocking somebody unconscious with a melee attack rather than killing them is one of the best ways to potentially gather information about a opposing Force.

    Same for keeping NPCs and Pet focused tagalongs to cause unnecessary strife because of the math rocks not being friendly.
    what is the point of living if you can't deadlift?

    All credit to the amazing avatar goes to thoroughlyS

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedMage125's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    I'm on a boat!
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Remove the "PC pops up on a 20" rule and you can simply declare that everyone gets death saving throws, and we're abstracting away the PCs going arround and putting a sword through the throat of every down enemy, because that's not all that heroic.

    Monsters rarely have healing powers, so other than the chance of a 20, it really doesn't matter much if they roll death saving throws.
    But for the ones that DO have healing, the distinction is important. You can't cast Healig Word on a corpse.
    Red Mage avatar by Aedilred.

    Where do you fit in? (link fixed)

    RedMage Prestige Class!

    Best advice I've ever heard one DM give another:
    "Remember that it is both a game and a story. If the two conflict, err on the side of cool, your players will thank you for it."

    Second Eternal Foe of the Draconic Lord, battling him across the multiverse in whatever shapes and forms he may take.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Troll in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Albuquerque, NM

    Default Re: Death saves

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Lampert View Post
    Remove the "PC pops up on a 20" rule and you can simply declare that everyone gets death saving throws, and we're abstracting away the PCs going arround and putting a sword through the throat of every down enemy, because that's not all that heroic.

    Monsters rarely have healing powers, so other than the chance of a 20, it really doesn't matter much if they roll death saving throws.
    I get the point, but having played a Cleric that was on death saves, and DM'd a Cleric in the same boat in a different game that both managed to roll a nat 20 and save the day, I wouldn't use, nor be happy to play in a game that used that rule. (Not like, not play at all, but note my discontent in session zero and chive on.)

    If NPCs didn't get the nat 20 rule (maybe it counts as two saves instead), but PCs still did, that's something I could get behind.

    OTOH, I've never had an issue with the 'why' of the original rule so I'm perfectly fine playing NPCs die at 0 outside extenuating circumstances.
    Trollbait extraordinaire

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •