OMG ansom uses Sploitz!

[BRC]

In the latest comic, Ansom asks team Jillian to switch their alliance from Jetstone to Transylvito so that their next turn starts before the tool's, effectivly giving them two turns ina row if I read that right. In short, Parson does not have a monopoly on ErfSpolitz.

That said, I'm looking forward to meeting more mafia vampires.

[Rutee]

Clever. For all his noble talk he's still willing to abuse the rules. Actually that raises an interesting question; Do Erfworlders consider following rules tot heir letter, but not spirit, abuse, or clever tactics?

[Occasional Sage]

Clever. For all his noble talk he's still willing to abuse the rules. Actually that raises an interesting question; Do Erfworlders consider following rules tot heir letter, but not spirit, abuse, or clever tactics?

I'd... surmise that it's abusive, from the reactions Ansom gets. Although that may well be nothing more than surprise, I don't honestly believe that's the case.

I'm thinking back to Parson trying to squeeze in nighttime maneuvers; everybody was so floored at the idea that I don't think looking for loopholes is really done. It might be the hallmark of very high-level leaders, but not something you see in even exceptional characters. If it was common, his thought process would seem familiar but flawed, rather than alien.

[Laurentio]

I'd... surmise that it's abusive, from the reactions Ansom gets. Although that may well be nothing more than surprise, I don't honestly believe that's the case.

It's not very abusive. Actually, Gillina won't take a second turn, but just "initiative" against Stanley.

The Coalition turn is after Stanley's, baceuse the leader side is Jetstone. So, on turn 1, we have:
- Stanley
- Coalition.

At the end of the Coalition turn, Gillian's stack will leave Coalition and will alliance under Transylvito, whose turn is before Stanley's. But they WON'T move again during turn 1.

Just, on Turn 2:
- Transylvito
- Stanley
- Coalition

So, this exploit is just to get a running start on Stanley, but won't allow to really move one more. Gillian can't re-join the Coalition at the end of her turn to get an addictional move during Coalition turn.

Useful, but still not a big cheat.

Laurentio

[Occasional Sage]

It's not very abusive. Actually, Gillina won't take a second turn, but just "initiative" against Stanley.

The Coalition turn is after Stanley's, baceuse the leader side is Jetstone. So, on turn 1, we have:
- Stanley
- Coalition.

At the end of the Coalition turn, Gillian's stack will leave Coalition and will alliance under Transylvito, whose turn is before Stanley's. But they WON'T move again during turn 1.

Just, on Turn 2:
- Transylvito
- Stanley
- Coalition

So, this exploit is just to get a running start on Stanley, but won't allow to really move one more. Gillian can't re-join the Coalition at the end of her turn to get an addictional move during Coalition turn.

Useful, but still not a big cheat.

Laurentio

No, but they *will* move at the end of turn one and also the beginning of turn two, which is two moves in a row.

The exploit is fair; since Transylvito units would likely have lost a move when they allied into the Jetstones turn, this simply makes it a wash. Cashing in now is very clever though, and is... sidestepping the rules, to be generous, as the units will be rejoining Jetstone as soon as they've defeated Stanley.

[Laurentio]

No, but they *will* move at the end of turn one and also the beginning of turn two, which is two moves in a row.

Still, two moves in two turns, so no gain. Just the advantage of starting first. They can't join again the Jetstone after Stanley's turn to act a second time during same turn.

The exploit is fair; since Transylvito units would likely have lost a move when they allied into the Jetstones turn, this simply makes it a wash. Cashing in now is very clever though, and is... sidestepping the rules, to be generous, as the units will be rejoining Jetstone as soon as they've defeated Stanley.

You suppose that a side can make an alliance out of its turn. If yes, it works your way. But as it's just very probable (because cheat-proof) that you can accept an alliance only during your turn, you just switch your action time during the next turn.
Or, you turns can switch wildly, but a single troops can't move more that one time (it happens with captured troops in many games. If you capture an enemy that already spent movement, you can use only what is left).
At least, it's how I would write a game, as it's the simplest way to avoid cheating.

Laurentio

[SteveMB]

Still, two moves in two turns, so no gain. Just the advantage of starting first. They can't join again the Jetstone after Stanley's turn to act a second time during same turn.

And if they do later re-join with Jetstone, they "give back" the advantage, letting Stanley have two turns in between a pair of their turns:

Gaining the double-move:

Turn 1:
Transylvito Turn (no applicable units; skipped)
Plaid Turn (Stanley, Parson)
Jetstone Turn (all Coalition units, including Jillian & Company)

Jillian & Company break their alliance with Jetstone at the end of her turn and makes an alliance with Transylvito.

Turn 2:
Transylvito Turn (Jillian & Company)
Plaid Turn (Stanley, Parson)
Jetstone Turn (all remaining Coalition units)

Now, if Jillian & Company switch back to Jetstone at the end of this turn:

Turn 3:
Transylvito Turn (no applicable units; skipped)
Plaid Turn (Stanley, Parson)
Jetstone Turn (all Coalition units, including Jillian & Company)

Thus, Jillian & Company can move twice before Stanley got a move during turns 1-2, but before they can do it again they have to give Stanley (and Parson) a chance to move twice before they get a move.

Of course, if the plan works, the latter is a moot point -- they croak Stanley and his stack, and Parson is too far away to be relevant.

[Gez]

And if they do later re-join with Jetstone, they "give back" the advantage, letting Stanley have two turns in between a pair of their turns:

But do they?

Imagine this:

Turn 1:
(Transylvito Turn)
Plaid Turn
Jetstone Turn -- at the end of the turn, Jillian breaks her alliance with JS and allies with TS.

Turn 2:
Transylvito Turn -- at the end of the turn, Jillian breaks her alliance with TS and allies with JS
Plaid Turn
Jetstone Turn -- Now it's Jillian's turn again! And at the end of the turn, of course, she breaks her alliance and allies with TS once more...


This would be clearly an abuse, so there is probably a mechanism. We can expect that an unit can't have more than one turn per round. Yet, for now, nothing says that it's not possible...

[Laurentio]

But do they?

Probably, there is no way to act twice in a round. If it would have been possible at all, the Coalition would have already used to reach GK in a single round. And this alone works out every other consideration. I've seen no one saying "Gosh Ansom, such a daring and new tactic of you!"

There was a clever comment on a sweden RPG discution, about abusing mechanism. The example was that throwing sand on a fighter face is a good move, because it blinds him or force him to keep distance. So, why no one use it every single time? The final comment was "Fighters don't travel with a bag of sand, so it can't be such a great move in a real match".

Laurentio

[Axl_Rose]

Clever. For all his noble talk he's still willing to abuse the rules

I should hardly consider that abusing the rules.

Just because he's the antagonist, that doesn't mean we ought to view everything he does in as negative a light as possible.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Probably, there is no way to act twice in a round.

Presumably so, because otherwise large coalitions would have a ridiculous advantage. But what I want to know is, what is the mechanism that prevents two moves in a turn? The obvious solution to me is that alliance-switching only happens at the end of the day, but it's not clear that it meshes with Ansom's instruction that they were to break and re-ally “at the end of this turn”. An alternative would be that a newly-formed alliance always moves to the start of the turn order, but that raises the possibility of irrecoverably losing a turn due to forming an alliance. A third is that an alliance can only be formed after everyone involved has had their turn. Any of these ways would work and be preferable (at least in my eyes) to an ad-hoc ‘only one move per day’ rule. I'd just like to know which rule is actually in force.

Ansom seemed pretty specific that they would be under Transylvito, even though Jillian would be in command. This suggests that he was choosing when the new alliance would move, and that the natural turn order might be fixed, with each side taking their turn with the commander of their side and skipping their natural turn. In that case, forming alliances at the end of the day would be the simplest solution.

[Revlid]

No, they don't get extra Move, although it is a 'sploit.
Example:

Turnorder is:
Transylvito (currently non-existant)
Gobwin Knob
Coalition

Jillian and Stanley are 100 Hexes apart.

Stanley has 50 Move, and goes first.

Jillian and Stanley are now 150 Hexes apart. Stanley has 0 Move.

Jillian has 75 Move, and goes second.

Jillian and Stanley are now 75 Hexes apart. Jillian has 0 Move.

Jillian switches to Transylvito.

Dawn comes, and Move is replenished.

Jillian and Stanley are 75 Hexes apart.

Jillian has 75 Move, and now goes first.

Jillian catches Stanley.

She has used no extra Move, but has nevertheless prevented him from reaching the safety of the city.

[Justyn]

No, they don't get extra Move, although it is a 'sploit.
Example:

Turnorder is:
Transylvito (currently non-existant)
Gobwin Knob
Coalition

Jillian and Stanley are 100 Hexes apart.

Stanley has 50 Move, and goes first.

Jillian and Stanley are now 150 Hexes apart. Stanley has 0 Move.

Jillian has 75 Move, and goes second.

Jillian and Stanley are now 75 Hexes apart. Jillian has 0 Move.

Jillian switches to Transylvito.

Dawn comes, and Move is replenished.

Jillian and Stanley are 75 Hexes apart.

Jillian has 75 Move, and now goes first.

Jillian catches Stanley.

She has used no extra Move, but has nevertheless prevented him from reaching the safety of the city.

There's a little flaw in your assesment: the group can only move as fast as the slowest unit.

Stanley's Dwagons have ~50 move, with none having more than 55 due to the loss of all the fastest Dwagons because of the doughnut fiasco.

Jillian's and Vinny's group has Orlies in it, and have lowest known move of the group at around ~44.

This means that even with this little boost: Stanley still has more move every turn, and a 100+ move headstart. And this plan only works if Stanley is indeed heading for the ruins of Faq. If he's not...

[Arkenputtyknife]

There's a little flaw in your assesment: the group can only move as fast as the slowest unit.

Stanley's Dwagons have ~50 move, with none having more than 55 due to the loss of all the fastest Dwagons because of the doughnut fiasco.

Jillian's and Vinny's group has Orlies in it, and have lowest known move of the group at around ~44.

This means that even with this little boost: Stanley still has more move every turn, and a 100+ move headstart. And this plan only works if Stanley is indeed heading for the ruins of Faq. If he's not...

There are numerous flaws in both sets of reasoning. Everyone seems to be assuming that Stanley is moving directly away from Ansom and company on the most efficient possible path. This is almost certainly not the case, meaning that the distance will be less—maybe much less—than that calculated. Jillian said she knew the terrain better than him, suggesting that Stanley's path will be more convoluted and/or inefficient than it need be, while she (knowing the terrain) would be able to take the fastest path. She also stated that she could head off Stanley if she took the units with 26+ move. This means she must be confident that she needs no more than 52 move total to accomplish the deed. And since Stanley believes he needs the Foolamancer, it seems likely that he too believes that Jillian and company will be able to catch up with him (though it's possible he's planning a stealth raid). So this number-crunching is pretty much meaningless.

But yes, if Stanley isn't heading for Faq, the whole plan is up the creek.

[Gez]

Probably, there is no way to act twice in a round. If it would have been possible at all, the Coalition would have already used to reach GK in a single round.

Stack without a commander automatically attack unallied adjacent stacks. So, no, breaking alliances regularly is not necessarily a good idea for a large coalition.

[Laurentio]

Stack without a commander automatically attack unallied adjacent stacks. So, no, breaking alliances regularly is not necessarily a good idea for a large coalition.

Great thinking. But in the Jillian flying stack, Fly-Centaurs and Charlie's Archons seems not to have their leader. This seems weird, in the light of your comment.

But your point is valid. Still, an hypothetical cheat to double the turn or even to just get a first turn could had been a killing move during the Dragon Nest Trap. Why didn't Ansom just end his turn asking Vinny and Tarfy to leave the Coalition, then he joins them in Transylvito, so they get their move before Stanley's to join the Coalition Army (or destroying BOTH wounded dragons and the nest's dragon)?
The only drawback I see is that any Woody Erf in the Coalition would attack other troops in the column, but I suppose that there should be at least a Leader in the stack.

Ansom saved the cool move for last? Or simply, it has some drawback and so can't be used without a major reason? In the precedent scenario, the drawback could be that troops are not allowed to move twice, so the column should had to wait one turn to offset the Ansom gained one.

Ansom seemed pretty specific that they would be under Transylvito, even though Jillian would be in command.

In every strategic game, Barbarians are usually the last to move. So, it would make sense to join under Jillian (if possible to join under a barbarian side) and THEN under Transylvito. But it's a pointless discussion, as we don't know if Barbarians can rule an alliance.
Without any rule known, I think that one unit can move only once, no matter alliances. Just an opinion.

Laurentio

[Jasdoif]

This particular "double move" doesn't appear to be much of an exploit, because it's not taking advantage of the key fact: Wounded units completely heal prior to starting their next turn.

To make the most of an initiative switch like this, one would attack as long as possible without risk of losing any units on the first turn; then repeat with the second turn with the now-healed units, without the opponent having had any chance to heal their own units. Parson would've made out like a bandit with the aforementioned Dragon Nest Trap if he had this option available (and knew about it, of course); he'd have gotten double mileage out of the dwagons before Ansom could respond.

[Ptorquemada]

Great thinking. But in the Jillian flying stack, Fly-Centaurs and Charlie's Archons seems not to have their leader. This seems weird, in the light of your comment.

The presence or absense of leaders is irrelevant if the units are from allied forces, which they were/will be (not sure if you're referring to earlier events or the upcoming turn).

I have a feeling that the Archons ARE leader-type units, anyway.