Goblins

[Gez]

He's a dwarf. Dwarves aren't slowed down by armour.

This is what I meant:

Kore's "uberpowered" equipment just makes me snicker. It's kewl-looking, but is all utterly impractical, and it's totally implausible that it would be as effective as Thunt illustrates it being.

Consider: With that helmet on, Kore's field of vision is limited to - to be generous - maybe a 60° wedge to his front left. He's going to be completely blind in the other 300° of the circle. The helm will interfere with his other senses similarly. The shield just makes matters vastly worse. If he turns his head, he can look past it to one side or the other, but is now almost totally blind to the front - his forward arc of vision has been narrowed to the tiny amount he can see through the hole in the shield, and that only if it's aligned with the slightly less tiny amount he can see through the hole in his helm.

And the shield is static - he can't effectively move it to block blows. Anyone even halfway competent with a weapon isn't going to be hampered much by attacking him around a static shield. It interferes more with his own attacks than it would with an attacker's - he can't bring his arms across in front of his body, which cuts off a tremendous number of combat options. It destroys his mobility, too... the little wheels appear to be set up to only allow stationary pivoting, and even that's only going to work on a smooth floor.

I'm not even going to touch the technical issues involved in making the stuff - the shield-harness and the crossbows in particular - work at all.

[FeAnPi]

There was a good article on a Dragon Magazine issue (I do not remember which one) about dwarves in war. They use the best equipment, and a 1st level dwarf fighter with a good equipment is capable of killing normal orcs and goblins with one hit. Also, the right armor may grant him an armor class so high than a normal orc or goblin will need a natural 20 to hit him.

So, Kore may be "low" level (about 6-7) and defeat entire goblin armies by himself.

Do not forget that we saw the first level goblins resist to an entire tribe of orcs for some rounds.
And they had not good equipment (a +1 sword, but not armours).

[John Campbell]

If Kore'd kicked open the door and come charging in in his adamantine full plate with heavy shield strapped to one arm and his dwarven waraxe in his other hand, and just killed his way through the room because he's that good and the monsters suck that much, that would've been fine. The problem is that the way his... unique equipment is presented, it's clearly supposed to have been a major contributing factor to his victory. And it's just laughable.

And the problem with the, "Well, it's D&D," excuse is that the D&D game in question appears to run entirely on DM fiat and Rule of Cool. And one man's "cool" is another man's "ridiculous contrivance".

I know Thunt's said that he actually comes up with rules for his ridiculous contrivances, but, well, if a player in one of my games approached me with diagrams of Kore's equipment and asked to use it, the rules I'd come up with, based on personal experience as to what it's like fighting with a big shield and a low-visibility helm, would involve a hefty penalty to Spot, a smaller penalty to Listen, and, with the shield deployed, a smaller bonus to AC and larger penalty to-hit than a regular tower shield (probably +2/-4 in melee, and +4/-4 ranged), and treat all terrain as difficult terrain, and actual difficult terrain simply becomes impassible. Possibly also deny Dex when the shield's deployed. On the bright side, you get to have both hands free.

These are... not the rules Thunt was using.

[FeAnPi]

Yes John, as a DM i will not allow a similar equipment to be effective, but in the webcomics the rule of cool is the only rule.

[Morty]

Yes John, as a DM i will not allow a similar equipment to be effective, but in the webcomics the rule of cool is the only rule.

Let me quote a part of John Campbell's post with which I agree throughly:

And one man's "cool" is another man's "ridiculous contrivance".

"Rule of Cool" isn't an excuse to handwave any implausible, nonsencial contrivance. Kore's equipment shouldn't work, period. D&D stretches belivability, but at some point, belivability can't be stretched anymore and simply snaps.

[averagejoe]

I'm not sure what the huge problem with Kore's shield is. In terms of defense we only ever see him use it as a bulwark to protect around ranged attacks, basically giving him a mobile something-that-covers-his-whole-body-allowing-him-to-fire-from-cover. In fact, we do see it hamper him somewhat when he can't quite react properly to the guys flanking him (he isn't able to turn and face them properly), and when we see the ogre attack him in melee the shield doesn't seem to do anything at all to help. It's somewhat problematic, and probably impractical, but it isn't the huge deal people are making it out to be, and it's portrayed in a fairly realistic manner as far as its capabilities.

Also, keep in mind that this was showcased at the same time that Fumbles took 1/11th of each character class to make a, "Totally legitimate first level character," and that a lot of the panels didn't have anything in them besides the people (no floors, walls, or background except for a flat color.) It's a different comic now.

[FeAnPi]

M0rt, I agree when we say that not all the "D&D-like" cool stuff is really cool, but rather laughable.
For example, I always laugh when someone speaks of the Book of Exalted Deeds, because according to that sourcebook in D&D all the franciscan friars must be 6th level at least (if human), needing 4 feaths in order to represent their vows. Now, seriously, imagine a 6th level novice.
But there is people that find the BoED cool.
And this is ok, till we play different games with different rules.
If

Goblins is a webcomic that exaggerates many things. Kore's equipment is one of them.

[Penquin47]

Give me a good roleplaying reason why you can't make the vows as a 1st level novice, but only receive the benefits as you progress through the ranks and take those actual feats.

[averagejoe]

You don't need the BOED feats to take vows, you just need them to get some sweet (or not so sweet) bonuses. I don't think Franciscan friars got an armor bonus from their vows of poverty. By the rules, you represent a vow of poverty by not writing anything in your, "Equipment," list.

[Castel]

Heh heh... shout out much, Thunt?

So yeah, New Comic is up!

[averagejoe]

"Your existence demonstrates a flesh to futility ratio that is mathematically staggering."

Heh.

[FeAnPi]

Please, let's not start a debate about that. The thing that I wanted to explain is just that D&D is what it is: the game has some questionables rules, and Goblins exaggerates them.

[RMS Oceanic]

It appears Pan is considering a simpler approach to the problem...

[Selene]

Heh heh... shout out much, Thunt?

So yeah, New Comic is up!

Ooh, thanks for the link. I'm still laughing.

I <3 Pan.

[Kyouhen]

So there you go. All of you who said nobody would ever talk like Kin does are right, nobody does.

[JonestheSpy]

The problem is that the way his... unique equipment is presented, it's clearly supposed to have been a major contributing factor to his victory. And it's just laughable.

Except for the fact that that's just not true. Kore's equipment made some interesting visuals, but there's no reason to assume that his prowess is just about his equipment.

He's got a tower shield, check. You can give it a slight adjustment that it can stand in place while he's using two weapons - far less 'out there' than many other special and/or magic items, such as the Axe of Prissan or the Shield of Wonder. His helmet probably has one eyehole cause he's probably got one eye.

He uses two weapons - okay, he's got the TWF feat, and is high enough level to hit what he aims at despite the penalty. Nothing absurd about that.

Really, to use what I regard as rather distasteful language, people are mistaking visual "fluff" for crunch.

[Stillthunt]

So there it is. I tweaked the text in panel #6 as a nod to you guys.

Thanks to those of you who've helped me be better at what I do by offering constructive criticism.

[Radar]

Please, let's not start a debate about that. The thing that I wanted to explain is just that D&D is what it is: the game has some questionables rules, and Goblins exaggerates them.

This conversation.

There was another one about roleplaying exp, but i don't remember where.

[Killer Angel]

"wordgasming snake with boobs"... eheheh

Well, the Hobgoblin is intelligent and sees the danger in internal conflict, but i think that will be Pan to resolve the situation. Sometimes, brute force is the best solution

[Killer Angel]

This conversation.

There was another one about roleplaying exp, but i don't remember where.

I think it's this.

[Tempest Fennac]

If the Kobold's text was changed, what did he initially say?

[Winterwind]

Kin's last line is made of pure win and awesome.

[Johnny Blade]

Kin's last line is made of pure win and awesome.

It's cool enough to steal it, which is exactly what I'll do.

[multilis]

On Kore: I see him like Goblin Slayer and Min Max... an extreme for comic effect, and *not* without weaknesses.

He has gotten by because his foes are so bad not because he is so good, this is a "low level" world.

In the end he may be defeated due to the weaknesses created by such extreme armor.

[Selene]

So there it is. I tweaked the text in panel #6 as a nod to you guys.

Thanks to those of you who've helped me be better at what I do by offering constructive criticism.

Thanks, Tarol! That was awesome!

[Kyouhen]

On Kore: I see him like Goblin Slayer and Min Max... an extreme for comic effect, and *not* without weaknesses.

He has gotten by because his foes are so bad not because he is so good, this is a "low level" world.

In the end he may be defeated due to the weaknesses created by such extreme armor.

That and I'm sure one good ranged touch attack spell would take him down easily enough.

[Tempest Fennac]

Ray of Enfeeblement would definitly cause him issues if you could hit acouple of them.

[The Glyphstone]

Ray of Enfeeblement would definitly cause him issues if you could hit acouple of them.

Except for the whole bit about how RoE doesn't stack...

[FeAnPi]

Or, simply, a swamp.

Or the old, beloved, hidden pit with greased walls.

[Tempest Fennac]

I didn;t realise that RoE didn't stack with itself. That would make taking Kore out a lot harder unless you could maximize RoE and use Ray of Exhaustion.