What jurisdiction do we use to determine legality?

[nc-edsl]

Pretty much what the title says. The rules say several things about illegal content, but don't mention any particular country. I assume this means American laws are used, but I wanted to be sure.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Generally speaking about the internet, the law is wherever the server is hosted and/or the domain is registered, which is somewhere in America in both cases.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Yeah, but state or federal?

Anyway, I intend to hew to international treaty law, in as far as it applies to this forum. If anyone tries to stop me, then well, I'm calling for a NATO/UN taskforce to help me out.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Both, I just don't know which state it's located in. I could find out, but it'd take actual effort of some kind.

[Zeb The Troll]

I'm not sure what you'd be considering posting that would potentially breech any country's laws, but I think it's safe to say that if it would be illegal in any country, Rich probably doesn't want to have it here.

In general, the rules are intended to reference copyright law and, not being a copyright lawyer either at the federal or international level, I'd wager that there's little enough difference that it's reasonably clear what material is copyrighted and what is not.

If you think it might be illegal to post it, you probably shouldn't. If it's necessary for some reason and you think it might be okay, ask for the specific thing you're interested in and get a specific answer regarding that material.

[Quincunx]

Specifically:

People posting from countries without copyright law have still been scrubbed for offering items outside of copyright;
The board's inappropriate filter is nothing but American, ignoring British English euphemisms and banning the Seven Words You Can't Say on Television;
Topics that would have been suppressed or forbidden in other jurisdictions (i.e. firearms) have been posted about freely.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, but state or federal?

Anyway, I intend to hew to international treaty law, in as far as it applies to this forum. If anyone tries to stop me, then well, I'm calling for a NATO/UN taskforce to help me out.

Order of operations for laws on the internet in regards to internet connections where either the site is hosted on a server in the US or the person viewing the site is located in the US are as follows:

Federal Law (interstate commerce being the justification) >>> State Law (debatable how far this applies, no real clear precedent) >>> Local Law (again debatable)

International treaties fall under federal law.

But if you plan on calling in anyone to dispute the US federal laws, well you need to remember the cardinal law of international law: International Law is really more of a series of guidelines who's meaning and application id decided by the nation or nations with the most guns.

[nc-edsl]

I'm not sure what you'd be considering posting that would potentially breech any country's laws, but I think it's safe to say that if it would be illegal in any country, Rich probably doesn't want to have it here.

That would make pretty much everything against the rules. There are a lot of countries, and not all of them have reasonable legal systems. (In some places being raped can get you put in jail.)

In general, the rules are intended to reference copyright law and, not being a copyright lawyer either at the federal or international level, I'd wager that there's little enough difference that it's reasonably clear what material is copyrighted and what is not.

If you think it might be illegal to post it, you probably shouldn't. If it's necessary for some reason and you think it might be okay, ask for the specific thing you're interested in and get a specific answer regarding that material.

I live in Canada, and while we do have decent copyright laws there are some differences between them and the American laws. One key difference is that while distributing (ie uploading) copyrighted material is illegal, downloading or otherwise receiving it is perfectly fine. It is also acceptable to point out places where it can be found. This means it would be legal to post a link to book downloads, so long as I had not uploaded them. This is also how copyright works in most of Europe (and most other places that aren't America), which is why I wasn't sure. It seems pretty obvious that we're using US law here, though, so I won't do anything like that.

Also, we Canadians are legally allowed to watch imported DVDs and to watch DVDs on Linux.

[Jimorian]

That would make pretty much everything against the rules. There are a lot of countries, and not all of them have reasonable legal systems. (In some places being raped can get you put in jail.)

I live in Canada, and while we do have decent copyright laws there are some differences between them and the American laws. One key difference is that while distributing (ie uploading) copyrighted material is illegal, downloading or otherwise receiving it is perfectly fine. It is also acceptable to point out places where it can be found. This means it would be legal to post a link to book downloads, so long as I had not uploaded them. This is also how copyright works in most of Europe (and most other places that aren't America), which is why I wasn't sure. It seems pretty obvious that we're using US law here, though, so I won't do anything like that.

Also, we Canadians are legally allowed to watch imported DVDs and to watch DVDs on Linux.

One thing that's very nice about the GITP forums is that "rules lawyering" to get around the posting restrictions is specifically not allowed. Pointing out where you can get illegal materials supports illegal actions, and whether you, I, or Rich could be legally held responsible is beside the point.

Jurisdiction is irrelevent unless the posting itself is an illegal action that is something likely to trigger a real legal response, then it will depend.

And like everything else, the moderators here will make a judgment call on any potential conflicts. I'd say that a reasonable definition of "illegal" for them is probably an amalgamation of western law and common sense. So posting a non-political joke about a 3rd-world dictator, even though that could draw the death penalty while living there, would probably not be considered a breach of GITP rules.

And to use an example from above, talking about guns and shooting is very unlikely to be illegal in any western nation. However, some specific topics like describing how to convert a semi-automatic to full auto, or the proper way to lead a target while sniping, likely is in enough places to put it off limits.

[nc-edsl]

One thing that's very nice about the GITP forums is that "rules lawyering" to get around the posting restrictions is specifically not allowed. Pointing out where you can get illegal materials supports illegal actions, and whether you, I, or Rich could be legally held responsible is beside the point.

The point wasn't that there was an obscure loophole in Canadian law, but rather that in most first world countries (other than the USA), it's not illegal: they wouldn't be illegal materials and downloading them wouldn't be an illegal action. It's not "rules lawyering" so much as the fact that different countries have different laws. "Follow American law" is very different from "Follow <any other country's> law"

[Jack Squat]

I really think this has more to do with copyright and big stuff. Robbing Banks, Killing people, and making unlicensed explosives are illegal in plenty of places, so it would be safe to assume that detailing any of these isn't well received.

The server is located in Houston, Texas by the looks of it, for those of you who were wondering, which means we can't use this site to sell Limburger on Sunday.

[Jimorian]

The point wasn't that there was an obscure loophole in Canadian law, but rather that in most first world countries (other than the USA), it's not illegal: they wouldn't be illegal materials and downloading them wouldn't be an illegal action. It's not "rules lawyering" so much as the fact that different countries have different laws. "Follow American law" is very different from "Follow <any other country's> law"

You just said in your earlier post that the materials in question are illegal in your jurisdiction, but that being the person downloading them isn't.

And last I heard, every first-world nation is part of the Berne Convention, so while the nature of the penalties for copyright violations are very different country to country, the fact that they are violations isn't.

It's very simple: if somebody doesn't have permission of the original copyright owner to post or publish something, it's illegal. The materials on that server/fileshare somewhere are there illegally. Posting a link to illegal materials breaks the rules here.

Edit: correcting misattribution

[NerfTW]

The point wasn't that there was an obscure loophole in Canadian law, but rather that in most first world countries (other than the USA), it's not illegal: they wouldn't be illegal materials and downloading them wouldn't be an illegal action. It's not "rules lawyering" so much as the fact that different countries have different laws. "Follow American law" is very different from "Follow <any other country's> law"

Well how about just DON'T DO IT, since you should already know it's going to tick off the mods, and Mr. Burlew himself.

It's not that difficult to just have some basic respect and decency for people's intellectual property. Is there a reason you want to post these things? Or are you just being "edgy"?

[Zeb The Troll]

You just said in your earlier post that the materials in question are illegal in your jurisdiction, but that being the person downloading them isn't.

And last I heard, every first-world nation is part of the Berne Convention, so while the nature of the penalties for copyright violations are very different country to country, the fact that they are violations isn't.

It's very simple: if somebody doesn't have permission of the original copyright owner to post or publish something, it's illegal. The materials on that server/fileshare somewhere are there illegally. Posting a link to illegal materials breaks the rules here.

This is what I meant in my post. I thought it would be obvious that I wasn't talking about all laws everywhere, just those that specifically applied to this situation, about posting material or access to material when it might be questionable in its legality to do so.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Well how about just DON'T DO IT, since you should already know it's going to tick off the mods, and Mr. Burlew himself.

In that case, there's no point in the clause,

It's not that difficult to just have some basic respect and decency for people's intellectual property. Is there a reason you want to post these things? Or are you just being "edgy"?

Ooh, burn.

What about the formula for AIDS retroviral drugs, hmm?

International Law is really more of a series of guidelines who's meaning and application id decided by the nation or nations with the most guns.

Some would argue that's no different from other laws. Customary and ius cogens do have, at least in theory, compelling legal status for UN member states under Article 93 of the Charter of the ICJ. Just because they're run roughshod over doesn't make them any less legal.

[skywalker]

The server is located in Houston, Texas by the looks of it, for those of you who were wondering, which means we can't use this site to sell Limburger on Sunday.

Dude, we can't use the site to sell anything, remember?

Especially shoes!

As to the OP, no, you can't post that stuff, cool?

[Jack Squat]

Dude, we can't use the site to sell anything, remember?

Especially shoes!

Yeah, but it's specifically illegal to sell limburger on sunday, while it's just against policy to sell stuff.

[Sequinox]

So... If I'm from Maine:

Shotguns are required to be taken to church in the event of a Native American attack.
You may not step out of a plane in flight.
After January 14th you will be charged a fine for having your Christmas decorations still up.

[nc-edsl]

Well how about just DON'T DO IT, since you should already know it's going to tick off the mods, and Mr. Burlew himself.

It's not that difficult to just have some basic respect and decency for people's intellectual property. Is there a reason you want to post these things? Or are you just being "edgy"?

It seems pretty obvious that we're using US law here, though, so I won't do anything like that.

Reading comprehension: because all the cool kids are doing it.

That was just an example of a not so obvious difference between the legal systems, not something I was actually planning on doing. For the most part I just wanted to make sure that nothing unexpected would come up. (eg "My Gnome buys some tasty ale." "Promoting alcohol is illegal in <country>. Banhammer'd!")

As for 'intellectual property', I respect the idea in principle, but think it's gone a bit overboard in corporation's favor in some places. (eg >100 years copyright, illegal to watch legally purchased media under Linux, life-ruining fines for downloading one .mp3)

[Nerd-o-rama]

The server is located in Houston, Texas by the looks of it, for those of you who were wondering, which means we can't use this site to sell Limburger on Sunday.

Crap. I live in Houston, and I didn't know this. What will happen to my weekly cheese auction?

[Jack Squat]

Crap. I live in Houston, and I didn't know this. What will happen to my weekly cheese auction?

you'll start selling good cheese

[theMycon]

you'll start selling good cheese

Is it specifically Limburger that's banned, or is it all dairy on Sundays? Or is it spoiled dairy in general? Or even "the public sale of a noxious or otherwise offensive material"?

All of those'd cover Limburger on Sundays. I expect the board to give me line, paragraph, and code before it restricts my right to sell cheese in the context of discussing sword & spell slinging supermen. Selling the cheese for its own sake, however is still against board policy.

[Pandaren]

Checks out site...

Oh noes, I was planning on selling my eye here, arrrgghhh...

[ikrase]

It is worth noting this on a forum. For example the Stardestroyer.Net forums are in Canada, which obviously changes things

I think the rules should note country of origin and ect.

[Jack Squat]

Is it specifically Limburger that's banned, or is it all dairy on Sundays? Or is it spoiled dairy in general? Or even "the public sale of a noxious or otherwise offensive material"?

All of those'd cover Limburger on Sundays. I expect the board to give me line, paragraph, and code before it restricts my right to sell cheese in the context of discussing sword & spell slinging supermen. Selling the cheese for its own sake, however is still against board policy.

It's specifically Limburger.

[theMycon]

Just double-checked on the searchable Houston, Texas Municipal code

No mentions of Limburger in the entire thing (Or Limberger, or any other reasonable typos). The only time something is specifically only sunday (or holidays) are "dates all state offices are closed", though the search function reveals at least 26 articles mentioning Sunday.

Cheese gets you a goldmine, mostly in the food section.

Randomly clicking one reveals at least one of my guesses was right: You cannot sell dairy that has been out of the fridge for more than ten days, Sunday or not, unless you get a permit. This implicitly removes Limburger, Gouda, and a number of other cheeses. (A pity, though... I'm a big fan of a Dutch Fontina, and requiring a permit might make it prohibitively expensive.)

[Jack Squat]

I was just following dumblaws.com...it may have been taken off the books.

[theMycon]

Ah...

In general, they find a reasonable (at the time) law and then find a very specific application of it, such that everyone asks "why would they bother to make a law about that?"

Traditional examples are "potentially dangerous pets must be attended to by their owners whenever they are out of the house" becoming "It is unlawful to tie a pet alligator to a parking meter."
Or "a person must wear clothes appropriate to their gender in state-owned buildings" becomes "It is unlawful for a woman to wear pants", because one was ticketed back in the 1800's for doing it.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Given the tightness of our CoC I cannot imagine what might be within that but illegal in some nations, save for those nations that have very tight laws on information.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Given the tightness of our CoC I cannot imagine what might be within that but illegal in some nations, save for those nations that have very tight laws on information.

You don't know Texas laws. I love my state, but our books are a bit crazy.