Warhammer 40k Tabletop IX: "Mech is king? I never voted for it."

[Closet_Skeleton]

Fair enough, I remember Cheesegear saying in other thread that there was a inexpensive way to make Imperial Guard, it just won't be overpowered.

There are cheap ways to make imperial guard. They just aren't tournament legal.

[Klose_the_Sith]

There are cheap ways to make imperial guard. They just aren't tournament legal.

Depends on what tournament you're talking about

...

A'course, I nearly bought up a mass of Redcoat figures (60 in a box for $30 or something) to make into a Praetorian regiment >.>

[Cheesegear]

Fair enough, I remember Cheesegear saying in other thread that there was a inexpensive way to make Imperial Guard, it just won't be overpowered.

Not quite. There are cheaper ways to make Imperial Guard, in comparison to themselves.

Check this, yo. $AU, 26.12.10.

Space Marine Tactical Squad, Missile Launcher and Plasmagun. 185 Points. $62
Imperial Guard Squad, Grenade Launcher/Flamer and Vox (i.e, rubbish). 60 Points (50 points 'cause you're not that silly. 55, tops). $41

The reason why Space Marines are cheap is because they have a higher points to currency ratio. Or a reasonable amount of Points Per Box. Imperial Guard, do not.

The problem Guard has, is if you want a special weapon other than a Flamer or Grenade Launcher (you do), and/or you want a Heavy weapon at all (you do) you end up spending way more than a Marine player would on your army, for about half the points.

Squad. $41
Heavy Weapon. $26
Special Weapon. $23

...$90 for as many points if you're taking Lascannon and Plasmagun. But, less points if you want Autocannons or something. So, you end up spending $200 to get as many points as a Marine player can get in $60.

The HQs aren't much better.

Librarian in Terminator Armour. $33. 125 Points. 175, maybe.
Chaplain with Jump Pack. $25. 115 Points.

Command Squad. $41...Even on the worst day of the week I wouldn't consider anything more than just the Medi-Pack and Vox. And let's say 2 Grenade Launchers or Flamers that you took from your Troop boxes. 95 Points.

Wait, maybe you want to compare the points cost and currency costs of Ogryns compared to Termi/Hammernators?
No. Scouts vs. Stormtroopers.

The most expensive thing in the arsenal is a Land Raider. $103. Yeah, I'm serious. 250 Points.
IG V-ship. $103. 130 Points.

...The Points Per Dollar ratio on Imperial Guard is pretty terrible. And that's what scares a fair few veteran gamers away from Imperial Guard when they're looking to start a new army. At least, not without backing them up with Inquisitors and/or GKTs which fill out points very quickly.

New players (at least the under-16 crowd) are rarely steered towards Imperial Guard by GW Staff, tending to push them towards Tau or [Dark/] Eldar. Or Marines. People over 16 are left to make their own descisions - usually - but I've seen it a number of times that new players starting with Imperial Guard tend to lose interest in the hobby. Not all of them mind. But, more than I'd like to see.

Fair enough, I remember Cheesegear saying in other thread that there was a inexpensive way to make Imperial Guard, it just won't be overpowered.

There are cheap ways to make imperial guard. They just aren't tournament legal.

[Turcano]

Okay, I think I've got my beginning list worked out:

Spoiler

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(1000 pts)

HQ
Librarian – 140 pts (attached to Hammernator squad)
Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
Avenger, Null Zone

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 – 235 pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields
+Drop Pod

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 – 230 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Melta Bombs
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 – 230 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Melta Bombs
+ Rhino

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x5 – 105 pts
Sergeant: Melta Bombs

Heavy Support
Predator – 60 pts

If the Predator needs sponsons, I can lose the lascannons and one of the melta bombs somewhere (probably from the assault squad).

A later 1500-point list would also include:

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Elites
Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 215 pts
Combi-Melta x5
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Razorback

Fast Attack
Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Heavy Support
Whirlwind – 85 pts

[Cheesegear]

Okay, I think I've got my beginning list worked out:

We'll see...

Spoiler

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Librarian – 140 pts
Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
Avenger, Null Zone

Yep.

Terminator Assault Squad x5 – 235 pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields
+Drop Pod

Terminators can't take Drop Pods.

Tactical Squad x10 – 230 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Melta Bombs
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 – 230 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Melta Bombs
+ Rhino

Yep. Although I don't like Melta Bombs and I would much rather that there were Power Fists.

Assault Squad x5 – 105 pts
Sergeant: Melta Bombs

Definitely needs a Power Fist or Power Weapon.

Predator – 60 pts

...So, I count 95 points wasted. Looks like enough points for three Power Fists to me.

If the Predator needs sponsons, I can lose the lascannons and one of the melta bombs somewhere (probably from the assault squad).

It doesn't. And you're much better off keeping the Lascannons in your Tactical Squads.

A later 1500-point list would also include:

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Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 215 pts
Combi-Melta x5
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Razorback

You're better off putting the Sternguard in your 1000 point list and the Hammernators here.

Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Sure.

Whirlwind – 85 pts

...So, in a 1500 point list you have a Predator with no sponsons and a Whirlwind? And only two Troops...Err...

One illegal Drop Pod, and two tanks that wont really do anything. And not enough Troops. Should be looking at 3 maximum squad size, or four or five smaller (5-6 with Razorbacks) ones. Everything else is alright.

[hamishspence]

Fast superheavies may move up to 12" and fire all weapons or up to 24" and fire none. Immobilizing a superheavy requires two Drive Damaged results on the damage table.

I don't have Apocalypse Reload, but the product description doesn't say anything about new rules, just datasheets, strategic assets, and miscellaneous tactical advice and battle reports.

The most recent books revise the rules for Fast Superheavies.

Imperial Armour Apocalypse II, states Superheavy Fast Vehicles can move up to 12" and fire all weapons, or up to 18" and fire none.

As do the other more recent Imperial Armour books- Siege of Vraks III, and Raid on Kastorel-Novem.

[Turcano]

Terminators can't take Drop Pods.

It didn't say anything in the Terminator Armor description like Rhinos/Razorbacks, so I thought that was legal as long as you kept it at six terminators or less. A Land Raider is out of the question pointswise, so I'll move this to the 1500 list and include a scout squad with a teleport beacon.

The Librarian having Terminator armor is going to be a major hinderance under this setup, so I'll drop that as well. Should I put him on a bike instead?

Here are the revised lists with the above assumptions:

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(1000 pts)

HQ
Librarian – 150 pts
Space Marine Bike, Plasma Pistol
Avenger, Null Zone

Elites
Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 215 pts
Combi-Melta x5
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Razorback

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 – 250 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 – 250 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Rhino

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x5 – 125 pts
Sergeant: Power Fist

(1500 pts)

HQ
Librarian – -10 pts from previous list
Terminator Armor, Storm Shield

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 – 200 pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields

Troops
Scout Squad x8 – 158 pts
Shotguns x8, Camo Cloaks
Sergeant: Melta Bombs, Teleport Homer

Fast Attack
Attack Bike Squad x3 – 150 pts
Multi-Melta x3

Also, when I get to a higher points level, what armored units are worth looking into? Is the Terminus Ultra a good investment?

[hamishspence]

It didn't say anything in the Terminator Armor description like Rhinos/Razorbacks, so I thought that was legal as long as you kept it at six terminators or less.

A terminator can go in a drop pod- so if you buy a squad, with a drop pod and attach a Terminator to it, it can deploy the same way.

However- Terminator squads cannot buy drop pods.

[Trixie]

HQ
Librarian – 150 pts
Space Marine Bike, Plasma Pistol
Avenger, Null Zone

The only bike? Fail. Also - plasma pistol. On librarian. Bad.

Elites
Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 215 pts
Combi-Melta x5
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Razorback

No power fist, drop pod (with homer?) would have been better.

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 – 250 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Rhino

Plasma is good, but melta might have been cheaper and just as good.

Troops
Scout Squad x8 – 158 pts
Shotguns x8, Camo Cloaks
Sergeant: Melta Bombs, Teleport Homer

No. Homer would have been better on Drop Pod. Take off cloaks, get Telion, sniper rifles and missile launcher or heavy
bolter instead for support, IMHO.

Fast Attack
Attack Bike Squad x3 – 150 pts
Multi-Melta x3

Ironically, a few tweaks and this list would have been good for Vulkan.

Also, when I get to a higher points level, what armored units are worth looking into? Is the Terminus Ultra a good investment?

Warhound-class titan?

LAND RAIDER ACHILLES is good, but suffers from the same problem all non-Codex vehicles do.

A terminator can go in a drop pod- so if you buy a squad, with a drop pod and attach a Terminator to it, it can deploy the same way.

No.

[Klose_the_Sith]

No.

Actually, yes ... for Codex Marines.

Drop Pod Capacity 12. No restrictions on Terminator Armour going into drop pods.

Buy a 10-man squad a Drop Pod and you can still fit a Terminator-armoured IC in there.

For other chapters (ie. Blood Angels) it doesn't work so well, 'cause capacity 10 only. But them's the breaks ...

[Turcano]

On second thought, I could just get a drop pod for the Sternguard and put the Terminator Librarian in that. I don't know why I didn't think of that before.

Edit:

No. Homer would have been better on Drop Pod.

Fair enough.

[Cheesegear]

It didn't say anything in the Terminator Armor description like Rhinos/Razorbacks...

...Read your squad entries. Drop Pods are Dedicated Transports. The Terminator Section itself disallows Drop Pods.

The Librarian having Terminator armor is going to be a major hinderance under this setup, so I'll drop that as well.

Actually, I've found a Terminator Librarian works fantastically with Suicide Sternguard.

Should I put him on a bike instead?

...Only if you have a Bodyguard for him. But, not even then, really.

The only Independent Characters that belong on Bikes are a Captain who has access to a Storm Shield and Hellfire Rounds, meaning he can go solo without too many problems. And Masters of the Forge, who are ridiculous on Bikes if you've got a list that can make it work...And usually only if you already have the Captain on Bike.

If you want ICs on Bikes, take a Captain first. Then add others. Not the other way 'round.

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Librarian – 150 pts
Space Marine Bike, Plasma Pistol
Avenger, Null Zone

Plasma Pistol!? ARGH!!! Plasma Pistols do not go on Independent Characters. On Berzerkers...Sometimes. But never on anything else.

The Bike...Probably not worth it. If you really want the Bike, the powers are all wrong. Since he's not in Terminator Armour/Storm Shield mode, he needs Force Dome to make it up the field alive.

Secondary Power should be Null Zone, so he and his Bike Squad can Melta Terminators and Daemon Princes...Except you don't have a Bike Squad...I see a problem...

Alternatively, Vortex of Doom or Smite. This guy doesn't have Sternguard as backup anymore, whatever he looks at, needs to die on his power alone. And Avenger doesn't really cut it.

Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 215 pts
Combi-Melta x5
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Razorback

Yep, although a Drop Pod would be better, and then you could put your Librarian in Terminator Armour and attach him to this squad, and you could keep the powers that you have.

...Although, recently I've had much luck with Force Dome and Gate of Infinity. It turns Suicide Sternguard into a survivable unit.

Tactical Squad x10 – 250 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Rhino

Tactical Squad x10 – 250 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Rhino

No. Lascannons don't go in Rhinos. If you want Rhinos, take Heavy weapons that are free. That way if you're moving (you're in a Rhino!), you not wasting fire.

Drop the Rhinos. Then leave the squad as is. Or, drop the Lascannons to Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter or Multi-Melta, then drop the Plasmaguns for Meltaguns.

If you're taking Rhinos you want...
Heavy Bolter + Plasmagun
Missile Launcher + Meltagun or Plasmagun
Multi-Melta + Meltagun or Flamer

The last choice is usually only in He'Stan lists.

Assault Squad x5 – 125 pts
Sergeant: Power Fist

Yep. The Librarian needs to go into this squad. Although Impassable Terrain will still slow him down. Anything other than IT and Buildings he'll be fine though. But, if he has a squad as protection, he doesn't really need a Bike anymore and works fine with a Jump Pack.
...Still needs Force Dome though.

1500 pts

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Librarian – -10 pts from previous list
Terminator Armor, Storm Shield

Same powers though, right?

Terminator Assault Squad x5 – 200 pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields

Yep.

Scout Squad x8 – 158 pts
Shotguns x8, Camo Cloaks
Sergeant: Melta Bombs, Teleport Homer

Camo Cloaks? Ew. You get Marines for the same points cost. Who can take Teleport Homers too. Drop the Rhino from one of your other squads, make a six-man Tactical Squad, with Razorback and a Teleport Homer and you'll be better off.

Or just drop the Camo Cloaks. Give the Sergeant a Power Fist and Shotgun. The other thing to note is that these guys don't have a Land Speeder Storm, Shotguns aren't worth it unless you know you can make it into Assault. In this case (No Storm), Scouts with Rifles or Bolters are much better. Since you are Infiltrating, it may also be worth taking Combat Blades because your enemy will be Assaulting you, and when you get Assaulted, its worth having extra attacks where you can get them.

In short, Camo Cloaks are bad. Shotguns are bad unless you're in a Land Speeder Storm.

Attack Bike Squad x3 – 150 pts
Multi-Melta x3

Sure.

Also, when I get to a higher points level, what armored units are worth looking into? Is the Terminus Ultra a good investment?

I don't play Apocolypse, but I know the Terminus Ultra is pretty crap. One of the better ones is the Land Raider Ares (datasheet for free off the GW Website). Trades transport capacity for a Demolisher Cannon on the front. With AV14 and Power of the Machine Spirit (a.k.a. Ignore Crew Stunned/Shaken), it gets a bit good. Although, considering Apocolypse, its hardly going to be the best thing on the table.

[Turcano]

Alright, once more into the breach:

Spoiler

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(1000 pts)

HQ
Librarian – 140 pts (attached to Sternguard)
Terminator Armor, Storm Shield
Force Dome, Gate of Infinity

Elites
Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 220 pts
Combi-Melta x5
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 – 215 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist

Tactical Squad x10 – 215 pts
Plasma Gun, Lascannon
Sergeant: Power Fist

Scout Squad x5 – 85 pts
Sniper Rifles x4, Missile Launcher

Fast Attack
Assault Squad x5 – 125 pts
Sergeant: Power Fist

(1500 pts)

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 – 200 pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields

Troops
Additions to Scout Squad – 94 97 pts
Sgt. Telion, Scouts x3 4, Melta Bombs
Less: Missile Launcher
Sniper Rifles x3 5

Fast Attack
Additions to Assault Squad – 5 pts
Sergeant: Combat Shield

Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Attack Bike Squad x2 – 100 pts
Multi-Melta x2

Also, is the Ares legal for regular games, or is there something else I should invest in?

Edit: Instead of adding a combat shield to the assault squad, I can remove the missile launcher from the scout squad and put another body in there.

[Renegade Paladin]

Also, is the Ares legal for regular games, or is there something else I should invest in?

Does it appear in the Codex? No? Then no. I might as well ask if I could field a Baneblade in 1000 points. Same for Terminus Ultra. Though I don't know about it being crap; that's a lot of lascannon and it has to roll quadruple 1s for the overload thing to happen, or 1 out of 1296 rounds of shooting.

[Cheesegear]

Though I don't know about it being crap; that's a lot of lascannon and it has to roll quadruple 1s for the overload thing to happen, or 1 out of 1296 rounds of shooting.

It's Apocolypse. 5 Lascannons is not that big of a deal.

[Klose_the_Sith]

Does it appear in the Codex? No? Then no. I might as well ask if I could field a Baneblade in 1000 points.

Go nuts, I could do with actually winning a game for once

[Turcano]

Okay, so the Ares is out. Is it better to field two Crusaders or three Vindicators and an Ironclad Dreadnought, generally speaking?

[Cheesegear]

Okay, so the Ares is out. Is it better to field two Crusaders or three Vindicators and an Ironclad Dreadnought, generally speaking?

Depends what's in the rest of your army and how much you need said things.

[Tren]

The Terminus Ultra is pretty crappy, especially for Apocalypse. For 50pts extra, you lose the transport capacity for 5 (2 regular, 3 TL) lascannons, and the potential (albeit slim) to screw up and not fire any of them in a given turn. There's way more useful and versatile weapon options in Apocalypse. It almost seems as though they decided it had to be more expensive because it's different. I mean, it's 3/5ths of the way to a Baneblade and not anywhere near as useful or survivable.

[Renegade Paladin]

The consequences of that slim overload chance aren't "don't fire your weapons," it's "suffer an automatic penetrating hit." So yes, that 1 in 1296 really sucks when it comes up.

[Penguinizer]

Is the Destroyer Spearhead from the newest White Dwarf worth it? 75 points for a little bonus.

I was thinking of more or less taking the following to a megabattle happening soon:
Deathstrike Vortex Missile (GW site datasheet. Vortex Missile deathstrike, lord commisar, infantry platoon.)
Destroyer Tank Hunter (Although it's a scratchbuild so I'm wondering if the store will agree with it.)
6 Leman Russes, possibly in 2 Destroyer Spearhead formations. Possibly the 10+ tank formation if I manage to borrow 4 more.

[Deth Muncher]

Okay guys, here's my attempt at a mid-powered Chaos list at 750 points.

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Warsmith Ferrous Buehler
125 pts
Power Fist, TL Bolter, Personal Icon

Rage Squad (10 Berzerkers + Champ)
225 pts
Champ has Power Fist

Enhanced Defenses Attack Team (10x Doods+AC)
245 pts
Banner of Tzeentch
Meltagun
Plasmagun
AC has Power Weapon

Raptor Cult (5x + AC)
145 pts
2x Melta
Champ has Power Fist

TOTAL: 740 (Which I'm okay with, since I think my opponent said he only had 745 anyway)

Thoughts Behind The List: This list is to be used to play against an Ork player - I think it'll be his third actual game, though he's been with the hobby for a while. I specifically left it devoid of mech. Why? Because I didn't want to THOROUGHLY trounce him - knowing that he probably doesn't have that much in the way of heavy weapons, I didn't want to have Rhinos or anything like that which would be nigh-impenetrable for him. Instead, I've got dudes for him to engage, dudes to shoot with, and if need be, multiple ways to set the list to "blend." How is this, strength-wise? If it's about mid-strength, I'm doing it right. If it's slightly too high powered (which I doubt, but you never know) let me know where to tone back.

[Incomp]

That list is not mid-powered...it's quite bad, which might be what you're really shooting for. Leaving out a critical advantage on purpose doesn't make your list okay, it makes it weak.

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Warsmith Ferrous Buehler
125 pts
Power Fist, TL Bolter, Personal Icon

This is all wrong. Power fists on ICs are godawful. Take lightning claws instead. The TLB is a waste of points. You have nothing deep striking, (except possibly your raptors, but they should not deep strike.) so the PI is a waste of points in the most literal sense.

Rage Squad (10 Berzerkers + Champ)
225 pts
Champ has Power Fist

Sure. About the only way these guys could be better is if they had a rhino. But, well, yeah.

Enhanced Defenses Attack Team (10x Doods+AC)
245 pts
Banner of Tzeentch
Meltagun
Plasmagun

Um. Okay, I guess...the squad is sort of schizophrenic. You want 2x melta or 2x plasma, not one of both. Also, meltas lose much of their usefulness against orks, with their T5 ICs all over the place, and paper thin vehicles where plasma works better.

You'd rather have a power fist on the champion, since orks' saves are crappy. If you can't afford a fist, they don't need a champion, to be honest.

I don't think the mark of tzeentch is going to do much for you here, really. In fact, any of the other three would be better.

Instead of these guys, just take noise marines.

Raptor Cult (5x + AC)
145 pts
2x Melta
Champ has Power Fist

Raptors suck. They're overpriced for what they do, which is be CSMs that move quick. But you want the orks to come to you, not the other way around. Scrap these and take two 7x (or so) squads of berzerkers. Or scrap these, and take some real firepower. Like a couple of obliterators. Or a defiler. Or a possessed vindicator. Or noise marines. Most things, in fact, would be better here than raptors.

[Zimfan]

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Sounds good! And good job on the Nob/Warboss head-swap. Its the little kustomizations like that which will serve to make your army unique and give it lots of character. And before long, you'll be trying to come up with all sorts of special tweaks and quirks for your boyz...

Thanks. I really liked one of the Nob heads and it was a small enough change I figured I couldn't mess it up.

The idea of being able to customize the models a bit is one of the parts of the game I find the most interesting.

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Okay, on the sprue with the Nob body and the More Dakka orks, there should be a set of legs with a tabbard that has some fangs and stuff on it. It looks like a bunch of other Ork legs, but it appears to be slightly larger, though I'm not sure if there's actually any difference. Plus, it has those fangs and stuff, which the other legs don't have. So it looks kinda special and different...

Oh, and don't use the Rokkit Launcha. I mean, you can, but I wouldn't. You've only got a BS of 2 with it, so it only hits on a 5+ with just one attack. Plus its 10 points, vs the Big Shoota for 5 points, and it gets 3 attacks at STR 5. <3! On the plus side, the Rokkit doesn't scatter, and should it hit, it has a STR of 8. Just gotta hope that after all that work, you make your Penetration check...


If you don't use those Rokkits, though, you have a few options. You can save them in case you decide Big Shootas suck and you want to try something new, or you can use them for conversion. I used a few Rokkit Launchas as bases for my Deffguns when I made some Kustom Lootas. Or, perhaps you could chop off the Rokkit itself, then slap it on a Shoota, then give that to one of your Nobs. Ta-da! Now you have a Nob with a Combi-Rokkit. Which then returns you to the issue of deciding of Rokkits are good or not... XD

Ok, that's the leg I thought it was, although I was a little confused when I held it side by side with some regular Boyz legs and they didn't seem larger.

I like the idea of finding another use for the rokkits since they seem wasted on a unit in a mob. I'll just set it aside until I have another model I want to use it with.

[Trixie]

Warsmith Ferrous Buehler
125 pts
Power Fist, TL Bolter, Personal Icon

Good.

Rage Squad (10 Berzerkers + Champ)
225 pts
Champ has Power Fist

This alone can win against orks. Better make it themed, meaning more Thousands Sons instead.

Enhanced Defenses Attack Team (10x Doods+AC)
245 pts
Banner of Tzeentch
Meltagun
Plasmagun
AC has Power Weapon

Good, but Plasma might be a bit too killy.

Raptor Cult (5x + AC)
145 pts
2x Melta
Champ has Power Fist

I'd give them Mark of Tzeenth, like the lord, and you'd be all set.

[Cheesegear]

Thoughts Behind The List: This list is to be used to play against an Ork player - I think it'll be his third actual game, though he's been with the hobby for a while. I specifically left it devoid of mech. Why? Because I didn't want to THOROUGHLY trounce him - knowing that he probably doesn't have that much in the way of heavy weapons, I didn't want to have Rhinos or anything like that which would be nigh-impenetrable for him.

Incomp basically said everything I would've said. Your list isn't 'mid-strength', it's bad. But, the Berzerkers will win the game for you. You have Personal Icon that you aren't going to use... Unless you plan on Deep Striking the Raptors...Which is a terrrible idea since they don't have Flamers.

When you want to give Orks a challenge, you set up your army to play them at their own game. If you want to give the Orks a decent challenge, my advice would be to grab regular Chaos Marines and give them the Mark of Khorne, since actual Berzerkers rape face.

However, regular Chaos Marines still have regular Bolters, and you might be tempted to use them...Orks don't like Bolters.

Essentially, what you want to be doing is taking as many guys as you can (go easy on Transports), who are geared for Assault. This way, your opponent can still use Orks for what Orks are for (Assault, mostly), but, since you're Marines and not Orks, you'll still be better at it and the games should come down to quantity vs. quality...If you haven't shot him up with Bolters, that is.

My advice is regular Chaos Marines with the Mark of Khorne or Slaanesh, or Noise Marines (without Sonic Bolters). Take more.

[Winterwind]

Okay guys, here's my attempt at a mid-powered Chaos list at 750 points.

All the already mentioned issues aside, your calculations seem quite a bit off.

Rage Squad (10 Berzerkers + Champ)
225 pts
Champ has Power Fist

If by "10 Berzerkers + Champ" you mean there are nine regular berserkers and the champion is the tenth model, this costs 250. If you mean there are ten regular berserkers and the champion is the eleventh model, this costs 271. In either case, not 225.

Enhanced Defenses Attack Team (10x Doods+AC)
245 pts
Banner of Tzeentch
Meltagun
Plasmagun
AC has Power Weapon

This is accurate if by (10x Doods+AC) you meant there are nine regular Chaos Space Marines and the champion is the tenth model. The way you formulated it it sounds more as if we were talking about eleven models here. Cheesegear wrote up a guide how to write up lists in an easily legible and clear fashion once; I would suggest you read it sometime. It's linked to in the first post of this thread.

Raptor Cult (5x + AC)
145 pts
2x Melta
Champ has Power Fist

If by (5x + AC) you mean the squad has four regular models and the champion is the fifth model, this squad costs 160. If you mean the squad has five regular models and the champion is the sixth model, this squad costs 180. In either case, not 145.

Good.

If the point was building the worst Chaos Lord possible, anyway.

[Trixie]

Furiosos and Deathcompany dreads can't replace their melta guns.

Magnagrapple is an "extra" weapon, it doesn't replace anything.

Then where you mount them?

Elites
Sternguard Veteran Squad x5 – 220 pts
Combi-Melta x5
Sergeant: Power Fist
+ Drop Pod w/ Locator Beacon

Power Fist might be a waste of points. Also - do you have anything else deepstriking in the smaller version? If not, do not pay for Locator then.

Elites
Terminator Assault Squad x5 – 200 pts
Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields

Ok. You might consider 1-2 with Claws, though.

Troops
Additions to Scout Squad – Melta Bombs
Less: Missile Launcher
Sniper Rifles x3 5

Good, but you should keep ML. Also, Melta Bombs on something changing back might be a waste of points.

Sergeant: Combat Shield

No. Not even worth the time converting.

Also, is the Ares legal for regular games, or is there something else I should invest in?

Land Raider Ares is pretty weak, actually. One gun, no transport capacity...

Land Raider Achilles, which I mentioned, is the best variant, if you can bear people wanting to punch you after they see what it can do.

But, the Berzerkers will win the game for you.

Hmmm, for some strange reason I have fifth Déjà Vu this week...

If the point was building the worst Chaos Lord possible, anyway.

Eh? It can be done worse, thank you very much :P

...As much as I tend to disagree with pretty much everything that Trixie says over in the Fluff thread; Here, he is correct.

Hey, it's not my fault you use obsolete, wrong sources

Though, you seem to not follow them anymore these days. Just look at your love for Index Astartes - it declares Grey Knights to be (IIRC) Chapter founded as 666th, made after second founding, from the genes of the Emperor himself. The new version, which you embraced, has them made before second founding, from genes of failed traitors who can't even afford new paint (and besides, it's still an allusion, not a fact).

Which makes your attack at my vision of DW, which is supported by facts, not allusions, even more strange.

I don't know if that makes GK cheap, or even more cool, though.

[Penguinizer]

How stupid am I being by playing 6 tank mech?

The list so far:

Spoiler

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HQ: Primaris Psyker: 70

Troops:
Veterans, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185
Veterans, 3x Melta, Demolitions, Chimera: 185

HS:
3x Leman Russ, HB Sponsons on each: 510

3x Leman Russ Demolisher, 1 with Multimelta Sponsons: 525
1475 total.

It will sadly have massive issues against drop-pods. Otherwise, I hope I'm able to shoot out large chunks of opposing armies before they get to melee. I'm still 25 below the max. I could probably take a power fist for one of the units or add an Autocannon team to one of the vets, but I don't see a reason why I'd do that.

[Deth Muncher]

Well, thanks to Incomp, Cheesy, Trixie and Winterwind. I'm betting that this list, then, might be TOO bad. :P I'll go back to tweak it a smidge.

Also, in response to a post a long time ago, it turns out I have 6 Obliterators: three new, unpainted and somehow missing their bits; and three oldschool, pro-painted ones.

Also, I apparently missed Cheesegear's How To Write An Army List Coherently For Other People To Understand post, so I'll go run back to the first post and get a-moving on that.

EDIT: 750 Point Army List, Attempt Deux
This one diverges slightly from the original idea from the first list - that is, I'm trying to make it suck less.

Spoiler

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HQ
Warsmith Ferrous Buehler - 135 pts
Jump Pack, Power Fist

TROOPS
Rage Squad (9x + 1SC for 10x models) - 305 pts
Skull Champion: Power Fist
+Rhino: Extra Armor

Marksmen of Tzeentch (9x + 1AC for 10x models) - 310 pts
2x Plasma Gun
Icon of Tzeetnch
Aspiring Champion: Power Fist
+Rhino: Extra Armor

The Tactics: The Warsmith can tack onto whatever squad he needs to, or he can go it alone and assault whoever he wants. Point is, he's got a 12" charge range, and four Powerfists on the charge. Although he SHOULD stay in a unit, if he can join a combat after it has started and the enemy is more preoccupied with other troopers, he should be able to crush some skulls. The Rage Squad's job is to get up into combat ASAP. The Marksmen are there as a slightly more robust squad who's primary purpose is to shoot things. It's even got Plasmaguns to pop any vehicles that it might happen upon. Also, both squads now have Rhinos, so they can get where they need to be faster/have something to screen them from fire.

Thoughts? Better? Worse?