When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Dienekes]

Actually, she has a number of mistakes going on, as I pointed out, throughout her tenure in the novels, starting right in the first novel. They do become correspondingly huger as time goes by, though, and less innocent (i.e., her first round of mistakes can be chalked up to innocence and ignorance, but now she's got less excuses).

Alright her mistakes as I remember them.

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Slaver's Bay is in turmoil. But it's Slaver's Bay, it's always in turmoil and destruction. All that's happened is the power has shifted. She shouldn't have trusted a butcher, now we know. Not really so great a mistake, especially since it got her the Fantasy Spartan Janissary Eunuchs! Her dragons are only going to come up in the next book. As are most of the problems you point out. They're mentioned problems not really playing a role on the story or impacting the characters. Just showing she's not perfect, which I never thought she was anyway.

Personally I think my favorite mistake of hers is trusting that mercenary she bought with the funky hair. I truly hope that comes back to bite her in the arse. But again, it hasn't yet we're just speculating for future catastrophe. Parallel with Cersei, who we get to lovingly see all her work explode in her face in less than 2 books. Now admittedly, Cersei is an idiot of the highest caliber but still.

aldeayeah: I do believe GRRM would slug you for saying the novels are allegory.

Agreed here

Pft. When she isn't backed up by a Faceless Man, or a semi-psychotic blood knight, she's just a little girl.

The last person to underestimate Arya as you are doing

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She stabbed them. They died. This is the common theme of Arya's section, she's even more bloodthirsty than the Hound is angry.

[hamlet]

It was tongue-in-cheek, I know ASOS was written well before the War on Terror/Iraq War.

I also know GRRM is a Tolkienist, but with the amount of political commentary that he posts in his blog, it's conceivable that some of it seeps into his works. Maybe not as allegory, but as "sufficiently specific applicability"

Oh absolutely. I'm sure it wasn't entirely out of his mind and I'm sure he's pushing the limits of applicability in some ways. I'm just sayin' "it's an allegory for . . ." is extremely reductive.

Dienekes: You're forgetting . . .

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1)Mirri Maz Dur. Drogo may not have died but for that creature, and it was Dany who pushed that creature on Drogo. Not saying it's a sure thing, but it's possible and even likely within the text.

2)Mirri Maz Dur again, directly responsible for the death of the unborn son. Intentionally so.

3)Having a known magi conduct black magic within the midst of the notoriously superstitious Khalasar, leading to . . . problems shall we say?

4)Granted, Slaver's Bay was a right nasty place before, but that doesn't negate the fact that her actions have only shifted the nastiness three feet to the left onto a new bunch of people, and probably not made things better for the others in the meantime. Net increase in misery.

5)Trusting the funky haired mercenary as you pointed out.

6)Not dealing with the "Mormont issue" with even a modicum of tact. That's gonna come round to bite her in her shapely behind before too long.

7)Ignoring the lady in the mask (whose name escapes me at the moment) who at least seems to have lots of info that Dany might be able to use.

8)Nobody sees the danger in creating (or permitting to form) a cult of personality in this way?

Granted, we've not seen the consequences play out yet, but she's been making mistakes right along. I tend to subscribe to the rubber band theory, though. The further along she goes, the tighter that rubber band pulls, and when it snaps, man is going to hurt!


As for Arya, yeah, she's a right nasty bit of work nowadays. But still a 10 year old girl. I'm pretty confident I could beat her up.

[Dienekes]

Dienekes: You're forgetting . . .

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1)Mirri Maz Dur. Drogo may not have died but for that creature, and it was Dany who pushed that creature on Drogo. Not saying it's a sure thing, but it's possible and even likely within the text.

2)Mirri Maz Dur again, directly responsible for the death of the unborn son. Intentionally so.

3)Having a known magi conduct black magic within the midst of the notoriously superstitious Khalasar, leading to . . . problems shall we say?

4)Granted, Slaver's Bay was a right nasty place before, but that doesn't negate the fact that her actions have only shifted the nastiness three feet to the left onto a new bunch of people, and probably not made things better for the others in the meantime. Net increase in misery.

5)Trusting the funky haired mercenary as you pointed out.

6)Not dealing with the "Mormont issue" with even a modicum of tact. That's gonna come round to bite her in her shapely behind before too long.

7)Ignoring the lady in the mask (whose name escapes me at the moment) who at least seems to have lots of info that Dany might be able to use.

8)Nobody sees the danger in creating (or permitting to form) a cult of personality in this way?

Granted, we've not seen the consequences play out yet, but she's been making mistakes right along. I tend to subscribe to the rubber band theory, though. The further along she goes, the tighter that rubber band pulls, and when it snaps, man is going to hurt!

Alright however, there are some errors in your argument and mine. I think it's more that we're talking past each other though.

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Your first 3 are Mirri Maz Dur. Yes, that is a problem. It also happens in book 1 not part of the 3 I mentioned in which she's golden. Also, because of Mirri Maz Dur she got 3 dragons. I call that a net gain.

4) I already talked about, it's a background detail with no baring on the story. And it gave her Unsullied. Again, net gain.

5-8) It's only a bad decision if the outcome is bad. As of 4 books, there has not been a bad outcome. We can speculate of the glorious explosion in her face, but my point is it hasn't happened yet and that is part of why people don't like her. She gained everything too quickly and easily with barely a bump on the road since Drogo died. We want to see all these points you made come crashing down.

As it appears do you. So really, we're not actually arguing about anything.

As for Arya, yeah, she's a right nasty bit of work nowadays. But still a 10 year old girl. I'm pretty confident I could beat her up.

That depends if she sticks you with the pointy end.

[Vonotar]

I've enjoyed what I've seen so far, the only thing I would really comment on is that the Hound seems a bit too friendly.

As for Daenarys, I quite enjoy her chapters. I'm sure she's going to have an impressive stumble sometime soon however.

[hamlet]

Alright however, there are some errors in your argument and mine. I think it's more that we're talking past each other though.

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Your first 3 are Mirri Maz Dur. Yes, that is a problem. It also happens in book 1 not part of the 3 I mentioned in which she's golden. Also, because of Mirri Maz Dur she got 3 dragons. I call that a net gain.

4) I already talked about, it's a background detail with no baring on the story. And it gave her Unsullied. Again, net gain.

5-8) It's only a bad decision if the outcome is bad. As of 4 books, there has not been a bad outcome. We can speculate of the glorious explosion in her face, but my point is it hasn't happened yet and that is part of why people don't like her. She gained everything too quickly and easily with barely a bump on the road since Drogo died. We want to see all these points you made come crashing down.

As it appears do you. So really, we're not actually arguing about anything.

That depends if she sticks you with the pointy end.

Be fair. She ain't even in the 4th book! She's only been in Game, Storm, and Clash. Dance is concurrent with Feast and we have no idea what's going to happen to her during that time. I wager it'll end up being bad stuff, probably pushing her to, or towards old Valyria. I think that'll be the big game changer right there.

And I ain't letting that girl stick me with nothin'. One episode of Blue's Clues and she'll be quiet enough!

[hamlet]

I've enjoyed what I've seen so far, the only thing I would really comment on is that the Hound seems a bit too friendly.

As for Daenarys, I quite enjoy her chapters. I'm sure she's going to have an impressive stumble sometime soon however.

Yeah, Macan(sp?)'s Hound is a little overtly friendly. And Cercei seems . . . less despicable I guess. I think the screenplay writers are trying to make things more palatable to the generation with the shortest attention span. Why wait a few hundred pages for characterization you can have instantly with a few clumsy lines added in now!?!?

[aldeayeah]

Those are the limitations of the medium, not really the screenwriter's fault.

Incidentally, I think Cersei's AFFC arc will be more enjoyable on screen than it was on the book, because her inner monologue was grating more often than not...

[hamlet]

Those are the limitations of the medium, not really the screenwriter's fault.

Incidentally, I think Cersei's AFFC arc will be more enjoyable on screen than it was on the book, because her inner monologue was grating more often than not...

I found her inner monologue fascinating. And not just a little frightening.

[aldeayeah]

Lucky you, I felt like I was watching a train wreck... at least I can agree on the frightening part.

[hamlet]

Lucky you, I felt like I was watching a train wreck... at least I can agree on the frightening part.

*shrug* To each their own.

And yeah, it is a lot like watching a train wreck. That was part of the point I imagine. Especially considering what was going on. My mother, who I conned into reading the books and is now obsessed with them, compares those chapters to watching somebody in a Ferrarri drive down the highway at 90mph with the parking break on.

[Dienekes]

Lucky you, I felt like I was watching a train wreck... at least I can agree on the frightening part.

Cersei's inner monologues were possibly my favorite part of the book.

You hit it directly on the head, a train wreck. A train wreck of stupidity centered on someone who truly deserved to be caught in the middle of such destruction.

Just thinking about how she ends the book plants a firm grin on my face.

[hamlet]

I still feel a little sorry for her, though. In the end, one of her goals was to protect her children, which is laudable, even if one of them was a psycopath.

[Dienekes]

I still feel a little sorry for her, though. In the end, one of her goals was to protect her children, which is laudable, even if one of them was a psycopath.

I don't. One good motive doesn't negate a life of manipulation, murder, and most importantly stupidity.

[Flame of Anor]

I also know GRRM is a Tolkienist, but with the amount of political commentary that he posts in his blog, it's conceivable that some of it seeps into his works.

GRRM a Tolkienist? Interesting. I have to say, besides their both being very long and well-written fantasy works, I see virtually no similarities between LotR and ASOIAF.

I still feel a little sorry for her, though. In the end, one of her goals was to protect her children, which is laudable, even if one of them was a psycopath.

Well...yeah, but I still hate her so much.

[BRC]

Ceresi was a character who, even after we saw things from her viewpoint, never really became sympathetic. You began to understand the things she did better, but that didn't mean you agreed with her. One of the things about aSoIaF is that the real Villains (as opposed to their henchmen) are never mindlessly evil, merely ambitious and ruthless.
Hrmm, you know, thinking about the Lannisters. Tywin had the three traits necessary to play the Game of Thrones. He was Ambitious, Ruthless, and Intelligent. Maybe I'm fitting character interpretation to my theory here, but I see each one of those traits in each of his children.
Tyrion, obviously, got Intelligence. He's the only really cunning one of the family.
Jaime got Ruthlessness, which is different than Cruelty. Gregor Clegane is Cruel, he seems to actually enjoy inflicting pain. Jaime simply does what is necessary and loses no sleep over it.
Ceresi got Ambition. Her brothers both acted in the interests of the Lannister family, but they did so out of a sense of duty to said family. Neither of them really seemed to want power, perhaps because, in their own way, they already had it. Jaimie was a skilled swordsman, and in a world of knights, that made him powerful. Tyrion was a genius who knew how to manipulate people and use his nature to his own advantage, in a world of thinkers and schemers, that made him powerful. Ceresi had always been a bargaining chip, a puppet used by her father. When her father dies, leaving her, basically, in charge of the kingdom, all she is left with is ambition.

Hrmm, three traits, Ruthlessness, Intelligence, Ambition. Now I'm seeing this pattern all over the series (Or starting to see it, and then realizing I'm just finding one person that fits, then trying to ham handedly force a pattern where there is none)

[Elhann]

Well...yeah, but I still hate her so much.

Yup, same here. Caring about her children also defines Catelyn and Lysa. And no one likes Lysa, either.

[hamlet]

Yup, same here. Caring about her children also defines Catelyn and Lysa. And no one likes Lysa, either.

Lysa was, if at all possible, nuttier than Cersei. And that's saying something!

I mean, I can muster some slight sympathy for Cersei, but my constant recurring thought for Lysa was "can somebody please put a bullet in that woman!".

[Eldan]

Lysa was, if at all possible, nuttier than Cersei. And that's saying something!

I mean, I can muster some slight sympathy for Cersei, but my constant recurring thought for Lysa was "can somebody please put a bullet in that woman!".

I'm pretty sure most characters in the books where thinking that too. Not with bullets, but probably with other means.

[hamlet]

I'm pretty sure most characters in the books where thinking that too. Not with bullets, but probably with other means.

Not to mention her infantalized, wierd, creepy little spawn, too.

[Dienekes]

@BRC

That is definitely an interesting view of the characters but I don't really think it fits perfectly.

Cersei is also completely ruthless, and Tyrion can be at times. Tyrion is also fairly ambitious, it's just tempered with the knowledge that he's a dwarf and won't really gain too much prominence.

Personally I see the relationships more as:
Each child must deal with the overwhelming success of their father as a domineering shadow over them. Tywin was smarter, more successful, and more calculating than all of them could hope to be. How they react to that knowledge is what defines them.

Cersei believes herself his true heir. Her delusion of her own importance is paramount to this. She thinks herself the smartest. the most talented, the most devious, and what's more she has to do it all while being cursed as a woman. Clearly she is as good if not better than her father. And as such she handles political and personal situations with all the strength that her father had, and with none of the strategy and foresight to make it work. The one weakness she allows herself is love of her kids. Like the rest of his children, Cersei was never close to her father and (though this is a complete shot in the dark) she makes sure that her children knows that she cares for them possibly to show to herself that she can succeed at the one thing he failed at as well, being a good parent. To add insult to injury, she's a terrible mother, blind to her son's nature and indulgent to his petulant behavior. Contrast with how Tywin responded to Tyrion's little spree of freedom.

Jaime doesn't bother to think about it, and sees his success as a swordsman as proof enough that he is his father's son and heir. His father is awesome, and so is he. His confidence in his capabilities mirrors Tywin's success with his. He doesn't worry about being caught because he's too smart and too cunning to be caught, obviously, he's Tywin's son. If he does not love his children or is feared by most he meets, that's fine, so was Tywin and he turned out fine. It isn't until his aunt says something to him about it that he actually stops to think just how different the two of them were, and with that he tries to use his brain for once.

Tyrion sees himself and acts like a cruel mockery of Tywin. He knows he's as smart as his father. He knows he's almost as cunning, and can handle a kingdom or economics if given half a chance. But he will never get that half a chance, for he will always be this weak, pathetic little creature in the eyes of everyone around him, and most importantly in the eyes of his father.

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This is why he was so upset when he was never recognized for his successful defenses of King's Landing. He'd finally done it, he'd saved the kingdom, and his family. He'd done near the impossible, and all he got from the deal was a lost nose and Cersei taking all the credit. And when he sees his father about it, the thanks he gets is flippant and once more Tywin has taken over his life and ruined what he viewed as a success.

He at the same time loathes his father, and yet like most sons he craves some token of appreciation for his efforts. You know where this leads if you've read the books.

[hamlet]

Very good observations.

Add to that that Jamie, for the moment, is the greatest of the three if ONLY because he's managed to learn from history and adjust accordingly. I look forward to what happens over the next few books as Jamie takes on the mantle that he's decided is to be his.

It remains to be seen whether Tyrion can learn as well, though we've had an inkling that, perhaps, he might. His greatest flaw, though, is his strange combination of pride and self-deprecating fatalism and his inability to shut his mouth at times.

Cersei is . . . well . . . just beyond hope IMO. She's going to end up short a head before long.

[aldeayeah]

GRRM a Tolkienist? Interesting. I have to say, besides their both being very long and well-written fantasy works, I see virtually no similarities between LotR and ASOIAF.

http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2011/0...om-book-to-tv/
http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2011/0...y-and-history/
http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2011/0...zone-and-lost/
http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2011/0...sonal-history/

It's a good interview. He raves about Tolkien in part 2.

[BRC]

@BRC

That is definitely an interesting view of the characters but I don't really think it fits perfectly.

It doesn't, it's an oversimplification that I thought was cool. It's more about their primary trait than trying to encompass the entire character in one word. Ceresi is just as ruthless as Jaimie, but in my mind Jamie is more defined by his Ruthlessness.

As for the relations with their father, as I saw it, Tywin never really cared for any of his children. He was a politician through and through. He viewed Ceresi as a political pawn, somebody to marry to the most powerful bachelor he could find while she was still young and beautiful. He despised Tyrion, and I didn't really get the impression he cared about Jaimie, more or less deciding he was Heir by default(IIRC, at one point he says he'd rather give Jaimie Casterly rock, despite Jamie being in the Kingsguard, than let Tyrion have it).


Tyrion's kind of built himself a strange persona as a response to Tywin's hatred. He hates his father, dosn't care what people think about him, and craves his father's approval, all at the same time.

[Dienekes]

You see, I got that Tywin actually does care about his children (two of them anyway) he just is completely clueless how to show it, and of course, he cares about them less than he cares about politics. My only bit to back this up is when:

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Jaime gets captured and Tywin goes completely unresponsive for a moment. It was possibly his one scene of vulnerability, ever. He cared about this son, and I think he cared about Cersei a little as well. I think the main problem is that Tywin demonstrates his caring through pushing them into what he thinks is best for them. Cersei would, in his mind, be honored more as a queen than anything else. Therefore she will be a queen, dammit. He personally did not gain anything from that arrangement, Robert wouldn't put him as Hand again, but he was setting up for his favored children to be in a perfect position for dominance.

Also he actually seems hurt, which quickly transforms into anger, when Jaime refuses to leave the White. It's kinda obvious which if his children he favors anyway.

[TheFallenOne]

Lysa was, if at all possible, nuttier than Cersei. And that's saying something!

I mean, I can muster some slight sympathy for Cersei, but my constant recurring thought for Lysa was "can somebody please put a bullet in that woman!".

Or drop a bridge on her. Or

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Throw her off a mountain. Damn that was satisfying

Jaime got Ruthlessness, which is different than Cruelty. Gregor Clegane is Cruel, he seems to actually enjoy inflicting pain. Jaime simply does what is necessary and loses no sleep over it.

I don't see Jaime as that ruthless. For example

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that whole speech what he'd do to Riverrun was a bluff

Remember that a young Jaime looked up to Arthur Dayne and it hurts him to this day that he can't live up to that ideal. Like Tyrion is hurt by rejection from his father, Jaime is hurt by rejection from... well, everyone else because of the whole kingslaying incident. "It always comes back to Aeris."


Regarding Cersei: I don't really buy into the 'cares about her children' thing, just look how she treats Tommen. It's in stark contrast to her treatment of Joffrey, who can't do wrong in her eyes, even though it's painfully obvious what a bastard psychopath he is.

[The Glyphstone]

So in the episode, was Cersei's sympathy to Cat feigned or genuine? She was basically indirectly responsible for him being injured in the first place, and definitely culpable by silence - was she just messing with Cat to allay suspicion?

[Dienekes]

So in the episode, was Cersei's sympathy to Cat feigned or genuine? She was basically indirectly responsible for him being injured in the first place, and definitely culpable by silence - was she just messing with Cat to allay suspicion?

Completely made up scene. But if I had to guess, feigned. Cersei is a spiteful little bi-ahem, naughty person.

[The Glyphstone]

Completely made up scene. But if I had to guess, feigned. Cersei is a spiteful little bi-ahem, naughty person.

That's what I assumed, since it seemed so out of character up to that point - but if she was so devoted to her own childen, I had allowed for the possibility that this might have momentarily cracked her own armor by seeing the kid.

[Erloas]

I always sort of had the impression that Tywin simply thought that because his kids where Lannisters that they were capable of just about anything and didn't need his help. I never got that he didn't care, more that, by forcing them to do everything themselves, the hard way, that they would be stronger for it. A tough love sort of thing. He didn't show them love or compassion, not because he didn't love them, but because it would be likely to make them weak. I do think that he always underestimated Tyrion as well and never actually expected him to do much for himself.

I also didn't really find Jamie that ruthless, very practical and not caring for much else, but never ruthless or spiteful just to be ruthless or spiteful. I think his personal growth in the later books shows that.

[TheFallenOne]

I think I remember in one of the Jaime POVs he recalled Cersei scolded him for what he did since there were other ways, nobody would have believed a little boy who wouldn't really understand what he saw(which is confirmed by the Bran POV when it is described what he saw them do). I wouldn't put it past her to feel a little empathy for Catelyn at that point.