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Thread: Is poison use evil?
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2011-06-14, 07:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
It is a typo. Standard is 1d4 con, Greater is 1d6 con. The DCs are correct.
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2011-06-14, 07:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-14, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
I don't understand. It says "
The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins." So that must be your only motive (i.e. not part of some quest, not done for profit and loot, although it doesn't say you can't loot them anyway - i.e. as long as the DM or in-world senior Assassins believe in your motives it's fine). It doesn't say anything else about how you choose the person, or that they have to be 'random' in any statistical sense, or it can't involve planning, stealth, use of archetypical skills, etc. Or doesn't say that senior Assassins must pick the target for you, but it doesn't say they can't give you "suggestions" (and while killing someone else may meet the stated prereqs, there may be in-character incentives to go along with a 'suggestion' made by assassins).Last edited by ffone; 2011-06-14 at 08:08 PM.
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2011-06-14, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
Which just increases the aggregate raw stupidity of it, that they made something generic without actually making it generic.
Then everything fails that last question that isn't enough beer and wenching to last until the next adventure.
Psyren nixed killing someone powerful, evil, and notable because they're powerful, evil, and notable, and that's what I was reacting to when I was criticizing what I perceived to be an overly strict reading of the requirement.
I then proceeded to discuss how being that strict with one's reading would lead to the things I said. The reason one chose who one killed for the prerequisite is enough to prevent one from qualifying for the PrC by that kind of reading because it's an additional reason on top of doing it to join the assassins.
Is that more clear?
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2011-06-14, 11:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-14, 11:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-14, 11:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
It's actually easy to pass the "no other reason" litmus - just kill someone you don't know. Simple.
If I don't know you're a tyrannical despot who deserves to die, then that reason will never factor into my choice to kill you.
Another way to do it - kill someone you know doesn't deserve death, like a Mother Teresa figure. There would be absolutely no reason to murder someone like that - except to join the assassins.
Both of these work. And again, they are both Evil. (And thus, you would be too.)Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2011-06-14, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
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2011-06-14, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
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2011-06-14, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
I find it hilarious that under BoED’s oddball morals, poisoning enemies is eeeevil, yet it’s OK to bash, cut, puncture, burn (with fire or acid), electrocute, freeze, blind, deafen, terrify to death (Phantasmal Killer), turn to stone, paralyse, implode, render insane, telekinetically batter against a wall, use caltrops/spike stones against, and otherwise harm opponents. It’s an idiotic return to the 1E notion that poison is the tool of the cowardly and dishonourable.
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2011-06-14, 11:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-14, 11:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
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2011-06-15, 12:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
Totally incorrect. Them being someone you don't know is a means to the end of joining the assassins. As opposed to killing someone you know is evil, which has nothing to do with the assassins at all, instead serving the alternate motive of assuaging your own guilty conscience.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2011-06-15, 12:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-15, 12:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
You made it sound like you were killing them because you didn't know them and thus felt it would make joining the Assassins easier.
And this makes me curious. If a Golem is ordered to join the Assassins and to follow any orders from others to in order to follow the first order, does that pass the technical "only to join the Assassins" that is being argued here? Or is it invalidated because it is only doing it in order to follow its initial order to join the Assassins and thus isn't killing to only join the Assassins? Assuming that the orders aren't too complicated and the Golem can take the class.
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2011-06-15, 12:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
Nah, at that point we're going out of RAW and more into rules as make some variable amount of sense.
Granted, the whole doing something to assuage a guilty conscience as opposed to the fact that famous evil people are going to be more famous as difficult to kill or unkillable is pretty silly.
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2011-06-15, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-15, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-15, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2011-06-15, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-15, 01:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2011-06-15, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-06-15, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
True to a degree, but it makes perfect sense when you consider the purpose of the PRCs in the book; they are, more or less, intended as examples for the DM. It was expected that DMs would mostly write their own PRCs and the DMG options mostly act as examples on how to. It goes from the generic ones (e.g. Loremaster or Arcane Archer) into the specifics (Assassin, Red Wizard of Thay) to showcase the different types of PRCs one could use.
I don't think those particular PRCs were ever really designed for use in Core campaigns, and I know the writers didn't expect for the splatbook writers to ride the PRC idea that hard. So, the odd prerequisites seem sensible, at least to me, when considering the environment DMG was written in. Of course, little turned out the way they expected.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
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2011-06-15, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
If you use the BoED instead of chucking it into a bin like the rest of us did, poison use is Evil. This is silly and contradictory to everything else in the game.
If you go by logic instead, poison use is dishonorable, but can be Good, Neutral or Evil depending on your intentions and whom you use it on.
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2011-06-15, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2011-06-15, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
I would buy that argument . . . if we were talking about 3.0. By the time the 3.5 DMG was written, though, there had been no shortage of splatbooks with piles of PrCs in them. The whole PrC paradigm, or something close to it, was fully in place when the 3.5 DMG crawled out of R&D.
You could argue that they probably just copied what they had in the 3.0 DMG, but I think my point still stands. They may have been lazy, but they were in no way unaware of the fact that there would be many, many PrCs after the first batch.In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers
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2011-06-15, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
Honestly, I do not see it as stupid. If you treat taking levels in Assassin as joining an in-world group, a conceit common to many prestige classes, then ffones explanation makes perfect sense. You don't like the idea of having a character killing someone merely to join a group but have the assassin abilities, then become an Avenger.
No, not that kind. Nor that kind. This kind.
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2011-06-15, 06:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
I belive Coidzor's point is that on the one hand you have some guy that already knows how to kill people and wants to join your group, and on the other, you have a guy that shanked a starving street rat in some back alley who also wants to join. One of those is more worthy of joining, but mechanically they both get accepted. If they were trying to make the class an orginization, the orginization should be giving you your first assignment. If not, you shouldn't have to kill someone to join the class.
Last edited by The Random NPC; 2011-06-15 at 06:16 AM.
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2011-06-15, 06:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Is poison use evil?
Should? As ffones said, many gangs, and what is assassins guild or similar organization but a 'high class' gang, have initiations that make it hard, if not impossible, for the party to go to the authorities after without getting in trouble themselves. The skill requirements cover the technical requirements portion, albeit in an abreviated and abstracted way. The UA Test Based Requirements does it even better in my opinion for prestige classes based on in-world organizations. You didn't just kill some homeless drunk, you pulled off an intricate dance of subterfuge and murder. I would love to add this to a campaign.
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2011-06-15, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2009
Re: Is poison use evil?
The point is a person could join by stabbing a homeless drunk or by pulling off an intricate dance of subterfuge and murder. One is easier, and the other is more deserving. If it is representing joining an organization, they should be giving you your first mission and forcing the dance.
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