OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[Ridureyu]

Here's a monkey wrench to throw in things:

How do we know she's dead? And that the wights didn't fake it?

[Snails]

Spoiler

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When Redcloak and Xykon face off, Tsukiko's ring will likely prove critical. X will anticipate Death Ward, and expect Supreme Dispelling to be sufficient. But he could easily overlook that little bauble, the exact kind of thing which would save Redcloak's bacon against Maximized Energy Drain.

[The MunchKING]

Redcloak stood there and watched her die. I kinda think that's a good indicator.

[Razgriez]

Well, while the resistance is dead, team evil just lost one of its four major members, will have almost certainly lost the horde of wights, and this probably forshadows a much larger conflict between Xykon and Redcloak.

That's the problem with evil teams; the members of said teams are rarely cooperative and tend to work against each other as much as they work against the good guys.

I wouldn't count them out quite yet. For example: There was a time I had begun to count out the Linear guild. They were falling apart, Thog seemed to have become more burdensome than helpful for Nale (so much so, that he was willing to let Thog be arrested by Cliffport), they were recruiting sub-par replacement members, and to me, was looking like a Pyrrhic victory, all to just simply insert Nale into the Order as a spy. Flash forward to now, and lo and behold, the Linear Guild is no longer just simply villains for the sake being Team Opposites of the OOTS. They are now in this to win it all, though perhaps for each of their own reasons.

In a similar way, I wouldn't count Team Evil out just yet. Tsukiko may be gone, but that's probably not too major of a loss to them. She was an idiot, and a fool, and in her blind, twisted love for the undead and Xykon, made herself an enemy of Red Cloak, and gave him every reason he needed to kill her.

The group that you do have to worry for, is the Order. They just lost the Resistance team, and Team Peregrine. They are in a hostile desert overrun with Tyrants, and they have to find the remaining gates, not aided by the fact that one of them, is ruled by one of the old heroes who hated Soon so much, he prepared his gate to stop the Good guys, just as much as the villains.

[Ridureyu]

In-comic evidence doesn't count. Remember how some people were sure Miko was still alive even when you saw her, torn in half, with Xs for eyes?

[The MunchKING]

In-comic evidence doesn't count. Remember how some people were sure Miko was still alive even when you saw her, torn in half, with Xs for eyes?

No... I remember people saying she'd be brought back as an Undead.

[Kittenwolf]

Redcloak can be completely truthful:

"Here's the phylactery!"
"OK, we're teleporting out of here. Where's Goth Chick?"
"She said something about going to look for you, and disappeared. All of Black Squardon is missing too. No signs of a fight or anything suspicious."
"I'm going to be angrier than usual when I find her, but I'm not going to wait."

The fun bit is he doesn't even need to bend the truth that much :)

"Where's the Goth chick?"
"She got uppity so I killed her"
"What?!"
"Found her ransacking my quarters and she told me she was going to take over, so I killed her"
"You killed someone I found helpful? Redcloak..."
"Yeah, had her own Wights eat her too, was pretty funny"
"Haha, yeah, that is pretty funny. Lets go"

[Ridureyu]

There were a few crack theories about how she was alive.

[John Campbell]

I thought that too, but shouldn't he have asked for them to kill each other in reverse order of creation?

They're all directly under Redcloak's control via his clerical rebuking ability, anyway, which overrides their natural chain of command. The exact order they destroy each other in doesn't really matter; it only matters that there is a definite order to avoid a situation where there are wights that have damaged each other enough that they can't finish the job.

If there were one more wight, Redcloak would have to concern himself with exact order of destruction, because there'd be too many hit dice of them for him to control them all directly.

[Ridureyu]

They can if you've played enough Tetris.

[whitemane]

Wow... I always knew Redcloak was a bad-ass, but I had no idea!

[The MunchKING]

There were a few crack theories about how she was alive.

I'm not saying your lying, I'm just saying I don't rememeber it.

That WOULD be a kinda silly thing to beleave though.

[Ridureyu]

I remember that it existed, but I can't remember any spcifics. You might be right, since memory is hilariously malleable. But I kind of love some of the silly crack theories with no basis in the comic whatsoever.

[AlaskaOOTSFan]

Obviously, it's because four wights won't fit in the fireplace.

He could have put them all together to make two wongs......

(rimshot)

[Douglas]

They can if you've played enough Tetris.

Like this?

[Ridureyu]

Yes, exactly like that.

[Alex Warlorn]

And now I think I know how Redcloak is going to die:

Because a lich is not a wright, and Xykon is not Thanh's Shoes. And that idea, that ultimately Xykon is one more tool, is what is going to lead him to overstep, and get himself killed.

Many manipulative types have thought throughout history they could CONTROL tyrants . . . except the ones who are psychopaths CAN'T be controlled.

Redcloak murdered Tsukiko because that the Dark One will control the Snarl's plane shift rather than Xykon or Redcloak is Redcloaks ONLY ACE AGAINST XYKON. IT's the only piece of information Xykon doesn't actually have.

Redcloak however is a fool to think he can truly out manipulate Xykon. I think he's forgotten how good at manipulating others Xykon is. He's remembered Xykon is DANGEROUS, but he's forgotten his spell slots and undead traits AREN'T the only thing that make Xykon dangerous.

Xykon is lazy, but frighteningly clever, he bores easily, but is inventive when he wants to be.

You are a bigger fool than I ever thought Wrong-Eye. I thought you had learned that there was no true way to control Xykon.

And Xykon's already figured out that the balance between you is not going to last, or he wouldn't have given the spell to Tsukiko.

He doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself and being remembered by all the world after he's defeated atop a mountain of dead heroes.

He may LOOK oblivious . . . but we've seen he can stage act obliviousness too.

By thinking of Xykon as just a tool, he's done the worst possible thing he could with a serial killer. He's under estimated him.

[the_tick_rules]

I almost feel sad now.

[rewinn]

Possibly, depending on generous Rich is feeling, but I choose a wish that's guaranteed to work by D&D rules....

...sorry, I was unclear. Certainly the rules of "Wish" with respect to resurrecting a no-body seem as you suggest. But what I meant was that because Wish is a major, major spell, from a strategic standpoint spending it to bring back someone who's proven she's a failure may not be as helpful as a lot of other things that could be done, e.g. wishing that the opposition's arcane spellcaster would decide to start aiding another faction.

Aaaaand I just realised that the title of 794 can no longer come to pass. Alas.

Alas also. And yet there may be hope - if Sabine has connections in the afterlife to which Tsikiko is consigned, she could invite Haley to join them in a slumber party.

[Kittenwolf]

Many manipulative types have thought throughout history they could CONTROL tyrants . . . except the ones who are psychopaths CAN'T be controlled.

Redcloak murdered Tsukiko because that the Dark One will control the Snarl's plane shift rather than Xykon or Redcloak is Redcloaks ONLY ACE AGAINST XYKON. IT's the only piece of information Xykon doesn't actually have.

Redcloak however is a fool to think he can truly out manipulate Xykon. I think he's forgotten how good at manipulating others Xykon is. He's remembered Xykon is DANGEROUS, but he's forgotten his spell slots and undead traits AREN'T the only thing that make Xykon dangerous.

Xykon is lazy, but frighteningly clever, he bores easily, but is inventive when he wants to be.

You are a bigger fool than I ever thought Wrong-Eye. I thought you had learned that there was no true way to control Xykon.

And Xykon's already figured out that the balance between you is not going to last, or he wouldn't have given the spell to Tsukiko.

He doesn't care about anyone or anything but himself and being remembered by all the world after he's defeated atop a mountain of dead heroes.

He may LOOK oblivious . . . but we've seen he can stage act obliviousness too.

By thinking of Xykon as just a tool, he's done the worst possible thing he could with a serial killer. He's under estimated him.

Redcloak's monologue does have one other possibility though.
Pure bastardry
Redcloak never liked Tsukiko, and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that while killing her off, he made sure to completely crush all her preconceptions about undead, intelligent or otherwise.

I'm pretty sure Redcloak's not going to be dumb enough to forget how much of a threat Xykon is, even if RC is pretty sure he can keep control.
But "All the things you hold dear are nothing but tools to be used by me" makes a much more soul-crushing line than "Most of the things you hold dear are just tools, and the rest can sorta be tools as long as you remain smarter and more in control than they are"

[Chronos]

In comic 828 it shows Redcloak entering his room and he casts some spell, his hand lights up red.

It is infer this was a Silent Commend Shout, which is actually confirmed at the bottom of 830.

Huh? First of all, Shout isn't a cleric spell. Second, I have no idea what you mean by "Silent Commend". Third, he didn't cast any spell at all to control the undead; he used his Control Undead class feature for it.

[dps]

maybe he'll go to Hinjo and turn him into guts,flesh and bones. If he can't kill all Azurites, let the nobles do the work.

Huh? I don't understand what you mean at all.

[The MunchKING]

Huh? I don't understand what you mean at all.

I think he's saying if redcloak kills Hinjo, the rest of the nobles will selfdestruct with their own petty feuds and drag the Azurite reffugees into a bloody civil war.

[Morgan Wick]

Wow. I've honestly had a hard time processing everything that happened here. What thoughts I do have are here.

[SteveMB]

Oh man, I couldn't have been more wrong. I was thinking more on the lines of them coming to some agreement to balance things out.

If she'd just tried to demand some kind of bigger "piece of the action" while keeping the secret, Redcloak might have been willing to consider it -- killing her creates a risk that Xykon is going to be peeved and take it out on him and/or the goblinoid population.

When she declared her intention to blow Redcloak's cover, he had no choice.

[AgentofOdd]

...sorry, I was unclear. Certainly the rules of "Wish" with respect to resurrecting a no-body seem as you suggest. But what I meant was that because Wish is a major, major spell, from a strategic standpoint spending it to bring back someone who's proven she's a failure may not be as helpful as a lot of other things that could be done, e.g. wishing that the opposition's arcane spellcaster would decide to start aiding another faction.

I guess it'll depend on how curious Xykon is about the ritual, and how paranoid he is. He obviously has doubts about it, and Tsukiko is the only caster he can trust to analyze it. Not to mention, unless Redcloak creates a perfect cover-up, he's going to be suspicious that she disappeared a few days after he got her to look at the spell.

So... can anyone estimate how badly a Wish scroll (at least 28,825GP) would hurt an epic mage's purse strings? Also, am I correct in assuming that casting Wish from a scroll won't cost the mage any XP?

[CN the Logos]

Goodbye, deluded, irritatingly perky female minion. If Charles Darwin had ever inhabited the same plane of existence as you, I'd nominate you for the award bearing his name. Challenging what might be the most powerful cleric alive on his home turf using minions he's been specifically designed to fight against was... tactically unsound.

Is there some rule about how long Undead last without their caster? I mean they're unholy abominations powered soley by Dark Magics. Without those Dark magics, I wouldn't think they'd last very long...

D&D undead have no limit to the amount of time they can theoretically last. Even vampires don't "die" without a blood supply, although the expanded rules for undead feeding provided in Liber Mortis essentially says that after a few weeks without blood, they'll be reduced to a psychotic berserker state in which they will mindlessly attack and attempt to drain anything that will provide them will sustenance, (regardless of the potential threat to themselves in doing so), and will eventually become immobile if that fails.

Re: everyone complaining about Redcloak's declaration that that undead aren't people.

Spoiler

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The default assumption in D&D is that they really aren't. Sentient undead can store new information in their memories, but regardless of what they learn, their personalities and paradigms don't change in response to their experiences, barring "a rare few exceptions." One of the deities presented in Liber Mortis as a patron of the undead actually uses this as a selling point for her religion; if you and your lover become undead together, you'll always love each other. Forever. No matter what.

Of those that do retain this admittedly diminished sentience, most types have had any trace of their original personalities buried under their hunger for the living. In particular, the wights that Tsukiko loved so much lose all of their former class levels, feats, and other abilities (which are the game's way of representing the sum total of a person's history and identity) when they're transformed into their undead state. As the saying goes, the lights are on, but nobody's home.

Liches and the like probably have it better than most undead, not having constant cravings for the vitality of the living, but consider again the fact that undead are generally incapable of paradigm shifts (with the "few rare exceptions" generally existing either as a curveball for players or an excuse for someone to play a good-aligned Necropolitan), and then the fact that most people who seriously consider turning themselves into something that can't feel or taste anything ever again are not exactly well-adjusted to start with.

The result of all this is that undead in most D&D settings have much less free will than the supposedly "color-coded for your convenience" dragons do, and far, far less than the goblins Redcloak represents. Maybe about the same level as fiends (more or less depending on type of undead/fiend). Saying that they aren't people might be harsh, but it's more than blind prejudice/hypocrisy on Redcloak's part. Now whether he's correct in assuming he has Xykon under control is another debate. Rattlesnakes aren't people either, and you could get some benefit from them by setting a few loose in your house to rid yourself of a rodent problem. It's just that doing that would be really dumb.

Many manipulative types have thought throughout history they could CONTROL tyrants . . . except the ones who are psychopaths CAN'T be controlled.

[...]

By thinking of Xykon as just a tool, he's done the worst possible thing he could with a serial killer. He's under estimated him.

Contrary to the popular portrayal of the condition in the media, being afflicted with antisocial personality disorder does not grant an individual the ability to devise and react to complex multilevel plots like Hannibal Lecter or that ******* from Death Note. Most psychopaths are simply lazy, selfish, and generally apathetic, with poor impulse control and a nasty temper in response to perceived threats. They might, for example, not bother to make plans for a massive battle they were leading the next day because winning a game of Yahtzee would provide a more immediate thrill. A number of the more clever ones have become infamous become their own relative lack of emotion means there's less in the way of them faking whatever emotional response they need to, but Xykon has not demonstrated that level of cleverness.

Indeed, Xykon apparently never bothered getting access to any of the spells that would have allowed him to just, say, read Redcloak's mind and find out that he's being played. With the exception of Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage, every spell I know of him casting is either designed to immediately kill things or hurt them as badly as possible. Maybe add Teleport to the exceptions now too (gee, that would have come in handy during the invasion of Azure City). He's essentially a hammer; his entire philosophy is that there is a level of force against which all intelligent strategy becomes totally useless, and he has that. Except he's not even really clever in that regard. His go to ninth-level spell is Meteor Swarm, which is a bit of an inside joke among D&D players on account of it appearing really flashy while actually being one of the worst spells of its level. It screams, "I like blowing things up and setting them on fire, but have little patience for tactics beyond shooting things until they die."

The question is not "is Redcloak more clever than Xykon?" That's pretty much a given, considering the evidence I've seen so far. The question is whether Redcloak can keep Xykon distracted and deal with the numerous setbacks to his plan long enough to put the lich in a position where his massive power advantage is neutralized. Given that Xykon is an epic level blaster as opposed to a conjurer or something, this should be difficult, but not impossible.

[ti'esar]

D&D undead have no limit to the amount of time they can theoretically last. Even vampires don't "die" without a blood supply, although the expanded rules for undead feeding provided in Liber Mortis essentially says that after a few weeks without blood, they'll be reduced to a psychotic berserker state in which they will mindlessly attack and attempt to drain anything that will provide them will sustenance, (regardless of the potential threat to themselves in doing so), and will eventually become immobile if that fails.

So what is going to happen to the rest of her wights, then? Certainly there were more then just the four we saw here.

[Flame of Anor]

Huh? First of all, Shout isn't a cleric spell. Second, I have no idea what you mean by "Silent Commend". Third, he didn't cast any spell at all to control the undead; he used his Control Undead class feature for it.

Perhaps he meant that Redcloak was Silently Commanding the undead. Although the correct term would be Control.

[thubby]

I guess it'll depend on how curious Xykon is about the ritual, and how paranoid he is. He obviously has doubts about it, and Tsukiko is the only caster he can trust to analyze it. Not to mention, unless Redcloak creates a perfect cover-up, he's going to be suspicious that she disappeared a few days after he got her to look at the spell.

So... can anyone estimate how badly a Wish scroll (at least 28,825GP) would hurt an epic mage's purse strings? Also, am I correct in assuming that casting Wish from a scroll won't cost the mage any XP?

she's been working on those scribbles since azure city went on lockdown. that's months, not days.