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Thread: The ExFighter
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2013-01-01, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-01, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
I assume if you are killing the fighter by means of grease and glitterdust, then he isnt even allowed resistance items
obviously, at any equal level, a wizard beats a fighter, the question is what is the minimum where a sound trouncing (one that does not set the timeframe or require incredibly lucky rolls) happenMy Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
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2013-01-01, 06:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Even as low as 5th level the scroll of force cage is not an entirely unreasonable expenditure of WBL and a 5th level wizard with no CL boosts still has better than even odds of activating that scroll. Once he's trapped in the force cage, the wizard has hours to either spam spells at him, drown him in summoned minions, or any of a dozen other means of taking him out.
By taking away the fighter's ability to aquire items that do something other than add numerical bonuses, you've completely hosed him. Even just a rod of cancellation negates this tactic but without that or some other means to either break the cage or dimensionally travel outside of the cage, there's nothing the fighter can do to counter. At least nothing short of producing a DC 120 escape artist check.
Edit: just remembered the fighter can take martial study (shadow jaunt). This pushes the wizard back up to level 7. The wizard cages himself, the fighter shadow jaunts into the cage to get to him, the wizard D-doors out leaving the fighter trapped. Alternately, the fighter doesn't shadow jaunt into the cage and the wizard is out of reach while he uses his magic to attack as best he can.Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2013-01-01 at 06:28 AM.
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2013-01-01, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
isnt DC 150 suposed to be within reasonable measure for a fighter of lvl 20?
and no, scrollcasting if you cant have scribed the scroll should have been banned, Neither of them actually get to exploit their WBL against eachother, they only get to apply it through extenstions of class features, and the fighter gets a cloak of flight.My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
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2013-01-01, 07:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-01, 07:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Initiate of Mystra can cast in a dead magic zone.
The Wish route to success seems unsatisfying because it's essentially altering the rules in a manner which is entirely up to DM adjudication. These are not routine uses of Wish.
This argument seems valid. It sidesteps the mechanic issues by just relying on the name. As there is no mechanism for recreating an AMF, it seems like a Colossus loses it's AMF forever, which is rather delicate for an epic monster. For the ExFighter, it can reinstate a working AMF on it's next turn.
I'm not ready to concede offense without working through a specific scenario for why it is irrelevant.
What are the grounds for considering this a typo?
The choice of Ex features should not be regarded as static. The routine you mentioned for brain extraction appears ineffective due to not extracting 12 brains.
I'm going to drop the Ex TrueSight in favor of the AMF as it has a similar effect and I believe the dispute there is settled now. I updated the original post.Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2013-01-01 at 07:03 AM.
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2013-01-01, 07:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
You have any other?
Astral Seed doesn't have any rebuild rules...
Ah, I see... Its about this?SpoilerConceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil creature would smash his own temporarily empty storage crystal to permanently usurp a subject’s organic body (unless the subject is itself irredeemably evil).
This trick is working different:
1. Manifest the Astral Seed.
2. Die.
3. Manifest the Mind Switch from tour temporal crystalline body. (You need to overcome the Protean's SR 39 and Will 32)
4. Smash the crystal.
Also, this trick kinda contradicted with line from description of Mind Switch:If either body is killed while the power is in effect, the other participant also dies when the power ends. If one participant’s body becomes petrified, imprisoned by temporal stasis or imprisonment, or incapacitated in some other way, the other participant will be incapacitated in that way when the power ends.
And in your method... Is there any difference if instead will be used Clone spell after Magic Jar?
Anyway, you now an epic monster with ECL 55...
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2013-01-01, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Yes, the astral seed rules.
It does have rules, if not rebuild rules.
To grow a body, you (in the storage crystal) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as ectoplasm from the Astral Plane, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body). When the tenth day ends, you completely and totally inhabit the new body. You possess all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested, at one level lower, but you have none of your equipment.
Alter Form does not work with Magic Jar.
Mind Switch does not change ECL.
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2013-01-01, 08:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
I already gave you one. The wizard casts celerity and decides to fall back and study you, and you responded by talking about Ex's escape options. So the wizard in some way makes them self scarce (how will depend on the environment) with their celerity (probably a twinned one in the case of the build I posted), then you get your lightning strike action and/or get to go first by winning initiative. Assuming you can't affect the wizard with those actions, after that it's round after round of the wizard kiting Ex until one side leaves, wizard attacks Ex and someone dies or flees from the sortie, or you find the wizard and someone dies or flees from that sortie. Until you demonstrate that you can do something with the advantage of going first, you're wasting an ability on lightning strike, and your offense is obsolete before firing a shot. Assuming both parties stay at the battlefield, you can be kited endlessly due to your inability to find or attack the wizard, while they ponder a course of action. How are you making the wizard flat-footed to benefit from IF, anyway? I just noticed your 5 levels of IM and am extremely confused.
Would you like other examples of 3.0 content making it into 3.5 books? Even the conflict within the Draconomicon itself is obvious, as the general section on golems uses the 3.5 ability name (top of 164), and the drakestone golem also uses the 3.5 ability name. If you really think the 3.0 language was intended, by all means continue to exploit it if you want, just don't be surprised that everyone sneers at you for it.
Ah, right, I forgot that while you only get 4 abilities, you can still mimic more creatures. Now I need to figure out how to make an effective mind flayer horde.
Also, see how everything continues to hinge around being a protean? Update the thread title, your class abilities are only bringing saves to the table.Last edited by Hirax; 2013-01-01 at 08:38 AM.
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2013-01-01, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Last comment on this topic for this thread. I promise.
150 for a class skill, certainly, but not for a cross-class, especially given that EA is a skill that doesn't get a lot of pumping options.
If you're extending this arbitrary limitation to include only things the classes could create themselves then the fighter gets no gear at all.
A scroll of a higher level spell than you can currently cast -is- an extension of existing class features and is common practice. I don't see any good reason to deny it as an option, except that it makes it patently obvious that spells trump any degree of simple modifiers to mundane abilities.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2013-01-01, 09:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
There's a tricky issue here: When does initiative actually apply? If either side chooses to disengage, it seems the other has no tactical scale response and so initiative should end, implying that Lightning Strike resets. Ex many ways to make scarce as well. Thus, we should only consider situations where neither side wants to make scarce.
There are a number of ways, the easiest of which is a surprise round with the wizard in the AMF.
No? But I did find something relevant which leads me to believe you are correct. In the monster manual II, Magic Immunity is updated to not include (Su) effects. I switched the OP to MMIII Prismatic Golem Immunity to Magic which is SR infinity + eat prismatic effects.
The thread title need not change for the punsensitive. I updated the abstract.
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2013-01-01, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
You see, there is an uncertain matter: was Protean really your body or not?
Let's see, here we have two variants: 1) No; 2) Yes.
1) It make some sense... Let's say, for example, psychic warrior manifested persisted Form of Doom at the start of the day, then Astral Seed (from item) after the battle (just in case), and then was killed by some trap. Question: is he going to rebirth in his god-awful tentacled form? I say no, because his body was actually a power effect. But so can be said about the Mind Switch. Even True Mind Switch can be dispelled rather easy, and ordinary Mind Switch is temporal. If your "former body" not your body anymore, then why you still lose level when it died?
2) OK, let's agree with the trick. You in the body of a Hagunemnon (Protean). But then I don't see how it's different from getting new body from Reincarnate, Ritual of Vitality, Deck of Many Things or any other source. Always new body mean new ECL (even if it equal the old ). Body of Hagunemnon will give you +36 to ECL (and proud title of Epic Monster).
Oh. My mistake. Not an automatic action...
Rubbish! ECL=HD+LA. Amen.
EDIT:
Definitely not versus Figments or Glamers
Ways to kill the monster:
1) Violate damage. Bring it health below zero. Game Over.
2) Ni times empowered Ray of Enfeeblement. Tanglefoot Bag. Call the Headsman...
3) Hire an epic assassin...
4) Escape. Go home. Find out who attacked you. Cast the Teleport Through Time. Kill the Ex beforehand.Last edited by ShurikVch; 2013-01-01 at 01:33 PM.
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2013-01-01, 01:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
No, the limitations on WBL are these:
Neither is allowed to add something that would be outright impossible for them at level without specifically using WBL. For a wizard, this means no scrollcasting of spells over his current maximum level. For a fighter. this means, so long as you can find the feat, race, or subsitution for it, he can get it, He also is allowed any equipment that is assumed to be standard by WBL, such as a +5 Mithral Fullplate of Heavy Fortification.My Homebrew: found here.
When you Absolutely, Positively, Gotta Drop some Huge rocks, Accept NO Substitutes
PM Me if you would like a table from my homebrew reconstructed.
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2013-01-01, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Mind Switch specifically state that "You possess the target’s body..." Possesion is ownership.
The form of doom example is irrelevant because the Form of Doom isn't possessed: it's temporarily transformed into.
True Mind Switch is instantaneous and hence undispellable.
Nobody disputes this equation, rather it's application. However, I don't fully understand your position.
Do you believe that the ECL of a wizard changes everytime they use Shapechange?
What about the ECL of a wizard using Mind Jar?
What about the ECL of a druid using wildshape?
How do you inflict the vile damage though?
How do you penetrate the AMF and the immunity to magic?
That spell has an extreme material component, and it's specifically suggested that the timestream reverts to standard. Hence, you make kill Ex, but another one will arise.
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2013-01-01, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
I get a vestment of steadfast spellcasting (MotP). Plane Shift to the Out lands (10 miles outside sigil) everything that isn't an EX ability is negated including magic (except for my own due to the vestments). I cast Gate on a Protean, until I get you (or you become aware of me and come find me). All of your immunities fly out the window. Perform whatever infinite damage loop you'd like.
I recall someone using something like this to kill Stuffy Doll.Last edited by Arcanist; 2013-01-01 at 04:20 PM.
Larloch, The Shadow King (w/ Ioun Stones) avatar by Iron Penguin
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2013-01-01, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
If you going to use such linguistic exercises, I also can play this game.
Your body is your possession? OK, wizard wear a Dracanite Helm.This bronze helm grants a +2 deflection bonus to AC and protects the wearer from all forms of possession.
If serious, due restrictive nature of such possession, I really doubt you can pull this trick. For example, breath weapon is just a bodily function of dragon, but if you possess the dragon's body, you doesn't get it. The same with eye rays of the beholder...
Also, in psionics matter the mind, body is optional. Who ever say your reformed body will be of creature which you hijacked and not of your original specie?
Yes. Sorry, I'm misread the description. But anyway, you use ordinary version of spell, not a true one.
All this examples are temporal, including Mind Switch. If you believe after 210 hours your new shiny aberration body suddenly revert to old form of lesser aasimar, then I'm completely OK with it.
Violated spells/SLA from Conjuration(Creation) or just physical attacks from minions.
Immunity - by supernatural spell or true spell.
AMF - by Disjunction, Invoke Magic or Iron Heart Surge.
OK, how about time dragons?Lastly, the great wyrm time dragon can make forays into the past and into possible futures. Such forays require preparation, and cannot be performed within the timeframe of a combat See the Traveling Trough Time sidebar.
And what about fell-draining hindsight?
And it possible to lock the Ex between close walls of force...
It's not a poison.Dungeonscape, pg. 37
Construction: DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check, 30 gp.
Antimagic FieldTwo or more antimagic fields sharing any of the same space have no effect on each other. Certain spells, such as wall of force, prismatic sphere, and prismatic wall, remain unaffected by antimagic field (see the individual spell descriptions). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.Last edited by ShurikVch; 2013-01-01 at 07:48 PM.
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2013-01-01, 08:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2013-01-01, 08:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Player characters are immune to diplomacy.
Umblar blots can teleport and plane shift as an Ex ability, so the ExFighter can mimic that and get out.
Dungeonscape p. 37:
Trollbane functions as injury poison...
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2013-01-01, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Saying that initiative ends isn't reasonable if one side is still stalking and studying the other, as you need to go round by round to see if Ex stumbles upon the wizard, or the wizard stumbles into Ex. Not being able to perceive your threat any more shouldn't change anything if they can still perceive and are stalking you. Frankly, if Ex flees to another plane I consider that a victory. Do you have means to disappear from the wizard that don't involve fleeing altogether?
It also isn't reasonable to say that you walk up to the wizard, get your AMF on them, and then get your surprise round. You'd get your surprise round right before putting your AMF on top of them, assuming they had foresight up (which then grants a celerity opportunity). It's not reasonable to claim that getting blanketed by an AMF isn't an "impending danger," and thus it would trip foresight. Furthermore, any wizard with persisted emanations or auras would notice the AMF before it got to their square even without foresight, if nothing else by their forceward, anticipate teleport, consumptive field, stormrage, or other persistent effect surrounding them starting to not function.Last edited by Hirax; 2013-01-01 at 08:20 PM.
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2013-01-01, 08:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Or the classic tinfoil hat.
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2013-01-01, 08:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Says who?
DM just go easy on players - just to leave them at least some chances to survive...
How it is?
Effect: Any creature struck by a weapon that has been coated in trollbane loses the benefit of its regeneration ability (if any) against that attack. A dose of trollbane applies only to the next successful attack with the coated weapon. Additional attacks do not interfere with the target’s regeneration ability (unless more trollbane is applied to the weapon).
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2013-01-01, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Diplomacy rules talk about interacting with NPCs, and specifically NPCs. If you can find any rules for diplomacy affecting either PCs or that don't specify who they affect, please do post them.
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2013-01-01, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Not really: SRD specifies diplomacy only affects npc's.
You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check
My mistake, I was thinking of the old version.
That would be the effect of the poison.
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2013-01-01, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
The other problem with Trollbane is that you actually have to do damage with it. In less cheesy games, this isn't a problem, because nonlethal damage (from not bypassing the regeration) is totally damage. Ex doesn't take nonlethal damage in the first place, though. It's why Trollbane didn't work on the Emerald Legion, among other defenses.
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2013-01-01, 09:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
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2013-01-02, 07:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
A Protean is uniquely capable of attacking your near Sigil, and I suspect one would do so very shortly after you start, so this is a complex way to commit suicide.
You do with the "Assume Supernatural Ability" feat.
The Astral Seed spell.
All of which inflict no damage.
I'm not claiming there isn't a way around any individual defense, but you need to specify a build.
I don't know anything about them.
Immune to energy drain.
I hadn't thought about that, but there is a rank in every knowledge skill so it's not too difficult to arrange a sufficient bonus.
Or Force Dragon Immunity to Force, or Shadow Jaunt. In essence, this is an unusual Tier 1 character for most purposes.
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2013-01-02, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
How about Knowledge (arcana) checks to know about the Gate spell and how it can summon creatures (and how strong the mage would need to be to summon a Protean), Gather Information checks to track down the Wizard and Psion in the first place and Diplomacy checks (as it's very unlikely they'd help unless their attitude was Fanatical) to convince them to cast/manifest the necessary spells/powers?
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2013-01-02, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
First, you haven't established the ability to stalk and study.
Second, initiative generally ends when order is no longer relevant. If you can stalk and study, it seems unlikely that it matters whether Ex finds you in round 35 or round 36.
By default, size fine and (presumably) >100'.
It's also easy to switch AMF for incorporeal and hide underground and/or add Will-o-Wisp Invisibility.
It's also possible to swap high Diplomacy for Hide in the build.
I disagree with this. Foresight is not independently intelligent, so it cannot make deductions about what the approach of AMF means. Hence, the test is only "is AMF in itself dangerous", and the answer is "no" because the wizard would survive fine in an AMF.
Whether or not the approach of an AMF is detectable in this way depends on details. For example, is there a dieing thing nearby? If no, then the lack of function of Consumptive Field isn't that obvious.
The AMF, LightningStrike, and high initiative are there not because a wizard can't penetrate it, but rather because penetrating it consumes class levels, actions, or other resources. ExFighter doesn't have access to the same action economy breakers as the wizard, so this seems like an important effect to take advantage of.
This is contradicted by text. "Trollbane functions as injury poison (DMG 296) ...". More generally, there is precedent for simalogues substituting for the real thing, for example with virtual feats.
I don't believe this logic works, because triggering Trollbane just requires "Any creature struck by a weapon that has been coated in trollbane..." so the resolution sequence is:
(1) Weapon strikes target
(2) Trollbane activates
(3) Weapon delivers damage
rather than (1), (3), (2).
Yes, no, yes. I'm not convinced that Gather Information is required to hire someone.
You misemphasized:
Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
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2013-01-02, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
Gather Information isn't for hiring them, it's for finding them in the first place. Extremely powerful Wizards and Psions are going to be hopping all over the planes - and even then you'd need to find one who didn't want to kill you on sight (alignment-based or similar).
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2013-01-02, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The ExFighter
On IF and the levels in IM:
Having a surprise round with the wizard inside of an AMF is rather unlikely. Even non-TO wizards usually wear pointy, cloth hats that are in fact a cone of lead larger than themselves, which they have used Shrink Item on.
Thus, if the Wizard begins in your AMF, he is immediately inside of a lead cone, enjoying total concealment, with a contingent spell (If my hat becomes a large metal cone...) going off.
I just don't see it being likely that you'll be able to IF him.
Still, it's a great feature for if you have some other means of catching him by surprise.