Tippyverse DnD VS Tippyverse Potterverse

[Arcanist]

I think you've understated things. Not 'one of the most powerful known'. I think you can safely remove the 'one of'.

What really seems to be the problem is that Karsus picked entirely the wrong god to target. Seriously, if you want to borrow a god's power for a little bit, fine; but if you're using magic to do so, why the hell would you target the Goddess of Magic?

If we're going from every known Wizards power at their prime, it would be Vecna since he was once so powerful he actually rewrote reality into a new edition while Karsus is INCREDIBLY power he is still trumped by Angels, Demons and Gods in terms of power.

Having said that, if there was actually official artwork of Karsus I would most certainly have him as my avatar considering he definitely comes in at number 2 on my favorite spellcasters list (Larloch is #1 to the curious)

I'd have to agree with Flickerdart in that it might just be easier to root it back to yourself. Taking over the Goddess of Magic's power is effectively giving yourself admin privileges over all Magic on your plane

So many ways to deal with people well nigh permanantly that don't involve killing them. But now we know why voldemort wanted to take over, he was preparing for the tippyverse's invasion and needed to unify the world under one leader and make the spells he thought would help more well known and ready to go.

... So... Voldemort was like Darth Revan?

[Rubik]

Horcruxes are pretty darned powerful, given they allow you to not-die at will.

[Darth Stabber]

... So... Voldemort was like Darth Revan?

Were I going to write a D&D/harrypotter xover fanfic, that would be the premise.

[hamishspence]

Having said that, if there was actually official artwork of Karsus I would most certainly have him as my avatar considering he definitely comes in at number 2 on my favorite spellcasters list (Larloch is #1 to the curious)

There's an official pic of him, just after Mystra's died (he appears half-transformed- bloated, red, and lumpy) in Magic of Faerun. Unfortunately that's one of the few books which WOTC didn't put art for up in their Art Archive.

[Spuddles]

Darth Revan?

Every time I see that I read it as "Dark Raven."

[Arcanist]

There's an official pic of him, just after Mystra's died (he appears half-transformed- bloated, red, and lumpy) in Magic of Faerun. Unfortunately that's one of the few books which WOTC didn't put art for up in their Art Archive.

I've seen it and it doesn't exactly give a good image of what he looked like before he broke his hand punching out Mystra. Removing the features, it looks like he was a Balded man, muscles on muscles (might be from the bloating), hairless, a highly defined nose, and just so happy that all of his chin can fit on the page.

[Raineh Daze]

If we're going from every known Wizards power at their prime, it would be Vecna since he was once so powerful he actually rewrote reality into a new edition while Karsus is INCREDIBLY power he is still trumped by Angels, Demons and Gods in terms of power.

Didn't Karsus basically do the same thing by accidentally turning magic off? Forgot whatever Vecna did. Only that he ended up as a god and seems disinclined to stick to one campaign setting, which is an achievement. XD

Don't really see how he loses to angels or demons, though, excepting things like Demogorgon and Orcus.

[hamishspence]

I've seen it and it doesn't exactly give a good image of what he looked like before he broke his hand punching out Mystra.

Tome of Magic has Karsites- which are descended from him.

Key features that tend to crop up- odd eyes (one blue, one some other colour) straight black or brown hair, a white streak in the hair, a sharp widow's peak, and a small nose and mouth.

[Arcanist]

Didn't Karsus basically do the same thing by accidentally turning magic off? Forgot whatever Vecna did. Only that he ended up as a god and seems disinclined to stick to one campaign setting, which is an achievement. XD

Don't really see how he loses to angels or demons, though, excepting things like Demogorgon and Orcus.

Karsus didn't screw up reality to the point where editions changed, all he did was destroy an entire nation, kill a Goddess and die. Vecna however Stole the divinity from another God, disrupted an entire plane (destroyed an nation while doing it), escaped the ultimate BBEG planar prison, crash landed in a city whose owner kills Gods for entering it, dominated the city for a few days, conquered all of reality, rewrote it to make himself an Over-Over-Overdeity, only getting defeated by the most deadly force in the universe... Adventurers...

Tome of Magic has Karsites- which are descended from him.

Key features that tend to crop up- odd eyes (one blue, one some other colour) straight black or brown hair, a white streak in the hair, a sharp widow's peak, and a small nose and mouth.

EHHHH I don't think I can, in all fairness, figure which are traits exclusive to Karsus or through eons of breeding.

[Xar Zarath]

Wow 3 pages and its only been a night (at least for me)

But to the point, if its motive we are talking about then I think maybe for the DnD Wizards it would be to motivate their populace and the war with Potterverse is merely propaganda, but with actual results instead of just dumping warriors into the Far Realm.
Can also say that they discovered new technology that is quite impressive and they want to have every scrap of it, Potterverse wizards just got in the way...

But in another discussion of this thread, I have always been, best word I can use is, "amused" when people say that HP wizards can win against DnD Wizards. To be honest they cant, at least against a fully optimized Wizard.
But the whole HP curbstomp thing also comes in part because we know THE WHOLE optimization of DnD Wizards whereas HP wizards are simply people trying to get on with their lives and happen to have magic.

What if DnD Wizards were not optimized munchkins but real people with real lives? They don't have a build or such, but are people who undertake the learning of wizardry for power/love of Big Brother/devotion to Tippy etc.

And since DnD Wizards are considered (at least for now) to be just like your average joe with magical knowledge, their spells can be considered in the same way. I don't know about you guys/girls but a simple cantrip like Acid Splash, at least in RL, does not do 1d6 damage if you aim it at someones face, just like a lightning bolt to the chest would not do 15d6 damage, it would kill you instantly.

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.

[Xar Zarath]

I don't really want to quote myself in the post above, but for those who didn't get it, think fluff instead of mechanics DnD Wizards vs HP wizards.
(Best way I can sum my above post)

[Flickerdart]

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.

Plane Shift vs no Plane Shift still wins. When one side can never attack the other, there can only be one outcome.

[Aegis013]

...stuff...

Tippyverse being a post-scarcity society means that a group of Wizards (ie Magic Scientists) can reasonably go through and determine what spells do what, how effective they are (maybe Acid Splash is a really weak form of acid, maybe lightning bolt just doesn't have the oomph that a lightning bolt does from a real storm), and effectively optimize themselves.

Considering that people recognize that this is the source of a huge amount of power (Tippyverse basically being a magocracy, where more magic, used effectively = more power) there are going to be plenty of people who make it their goal in life to use that power at its most potent form and in a most effective manner. Thus you end up with the Wizard-in-the-Sky people refer to, or the group of high casting Wizards who can easily bring down HPverse, if they really wanted to.

There's still not sufficient motivation for them to be concerned about HPverse as best I can tell though.

[unseenmage]

Wow 3 pages and its only been a night (at least for me)

But to the point, if its motive we are talking about then I think maybe for the DnD Wizards it would be to motivate their populace and the war with Potterverse is merely propaganda, but with actual results instead of just dumping warriors into the Far Realm.
Can also say that they discovered new technology that is quite impressive and they want to have every scrap of it, Potterverse wizards just got in the way...

But in another discussion of this thread, I have always been, best word I can use is, "amused" when people say that HP wizards can win against DnD Wizards. To be honest they cant, at least against a fully optimized Wizard.
But the whole HP curbstomp thing also comes in part because we know THE WHOLE optimization of DnD Wizards whereas HP wizards are simply people trying to get on with their lives and happen to have magic.

What if DnD Wizards were not optimized munchkins but real people with real lives? They don't have a build or such, but are people who undertake the learning of wizardry for power/love of Big Brother/devotion to Tippy etc.

And since DnD Wizards are considered (at least for now) to be just like your average joe with magical knowledge, their spells can be considered in the same way. I don't know about you guys/girls but a simple cantrip like Acid Splash, at least in RL, does not do 1d6 damage if you aim it at someones face, just like a lightning bolt to the chest would not do 15d6 damage, it would kill you instantly.

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.

I'm sorry but what you're asking for isn't possible. One is a game with mechanics and the other is a series of novels with plots.
D&D 3.x just is not plot driven as a system and so isn't really capable of bringing "RL" to life so to speak.

The average joe of wizards is an optimized wizard. anything less and they're dead. The D&D-verse is just a deadly deadly place to live. All manner of monster and demon, creature and god far outnumber the peoples of D&Dverse; and most of them find people quite tasty to some degree or another.
You just don't get to have a life without first overcoming the very real obstacle of everything being saturated with magic and most of it being out to kill you. At least that's the view I get from the published books, both novels and rulebooks.
Other DMs might run their games differently with more or less lethality, or more or less magic, but the core D&Dverse is just swamped with OP magic and deadly deadly encounters.

Potterverse is a fluffy walk through the woods by comparison. I mean seriously, their scariest forest had one dead guy, some spiders, and some centaurs. And 3 children in plot armor managed to escape all of the above without harm repeatedly.

It's just not a fair fight.

[Arcanist]

I don't really want to quote myself in the post above, but for those who didn't get it, think fluff instead of mechanics DnD Wizards vs HP wizards.
(Best way I can sum my above post)

Fluff and Tippyverse shouldn't actually co-exist in the same sentence. If it is Fluff based D&D Vs HP then you just get two people who have no reason to encounter each other and would most likely just exist for the sake of existing.

Elminster, Mordenkainen, Rasitlin would most likely just meet Dumbledore for tea on the roof of a small brownstone apartment in Brooklyn. All 3, regardless of Alignment wouldn't fight because... Well why would they? They're super-intelligent titans in their own field and thus would not want to fight because in the long run it would serve no purpose beyond stroking their own egos (which they have long since grown apart from).

You've gotta thing about this from as mature a mind as you can possibly muster. At which point you have to ask yourself "Why would they even care to fight each other? What would they hope to gain that cooperation couldn't bring?"

[Darth Stabber]

Wow 3 pages and its only been a night (at least for me)

But to the point, if its motive we are talking about then I think maybe for the DnD Wizards it would be to motivate their populace and the war with Potterverse is merely propaganda, but with actual results instead of just dumping warriors into the Far Realm.
Can also say that they discovered new technology that is quite impressive and they want to have every scrap of it, Potterverse wizards just got in the way...

But in another discussion of this thread, I have always been, best word I can use is, "amused" when people say that HP wizards can win against DnD Wizards. To be honest they cant, at least against a fully optimized Wizard.
But the whole HP curbstomp thing also comes in part because we know THE WHOLE optimization of DnD Wizards whereas HP wizards are simply people trying to get on with their lives and happen to have magic.

What if DnD Wizards were not optimized munchkins but real people with real lives? They don't have a build or such, but are people who undertake the learning of wizardry for power/love of Big Brother/devotion to Tippy etc.

And since DnD Wizards are considered (at least for now) to be just like your average joe with magical knowledge, their spells can be considered in the same way. I don't know about you guys/girls but a simple cantrip like Acid Splash, at least in RL, does not do 1d6 damage if you aim it at someones face, just like a lightning bolt to the chest would not do 15d6 damage, it would kill you instantly.

I am just trying to consider DnD Wizards when they VS the HP counterparts in a RL perspective and not a optimized gaming munchkins VS well for lack of better term real people.

There are people who flag in their devotion to the God Emperor of Man Tippy? BURN THE HERETICS, KILL THE MUTANTS, PURGE THE UNCLEAN!!!

Assuming adventures exist in a D&D world, a competent adventuring wizard is going to have a serious edge over HP wizards, though not as overbearing. D&D magic is far more open ended, and assuming they make an attempt at keeping up their touch ac, they shouldn't have that hard a time. Factor in druids, clerics, psions, ect, and you have a recipe for trouble, since they offer a very wide range of threats and counters. Deathward and mindblank keep a caster immune to the most threatening spells that can be chucked at them. Shatter will render them mostly ineffectual in a hurry. The existance of AMF gives them another huge leg up. Turn off the magic and a wizard's barbarian friend will have little issue rending them asunder. The power of undead and constructs also heavily favors the forces of tippy. Even beyond shadesteel golems, your more common varieties of golems offer enough power and immunities to kill many hp wizards. Assuming that HP spells carry the obvious descriptor (mostly death and mind affecting), and magic immunities work across the board, a simple iron golem presents a very serious threat. Undead are a bit less immune, but easy to acquire in large numbers in fairly short order, and would fill out the ranks of an attack force very easily. Dispel would turn off all the toys they are so fond of using, and disjunction would do it for good. There is still much in favor of the D&D wizards, the only real impediment to utter domination is casting time and spell slots, which is relatively minor.

Fluff and Tippyverse shouldn't actually co-exist in the same sentence. If it is Fluff based D&D Vs HP then you just get two people who have no reason to encounter each other and would most likely just exist for the sake of existing.

Elminster, Mordenkainen, Rasitlin would most likely just meet Dumbledore for tea on the roof of a small brownstone apartment in Brooklyn. All 3, regardless of Alignment wouldn't fight because... Well why would they? They're super-intelligent titans in their own field and thus would not want to fight because in the long run it would serve no purpose beyond stroking their own egos (which they have long since grown apart from).

You've gotta thing about this from as mature a mind as you can possibly muster. At which point you have to ask yourself "Why would they even care to fight each other? What would they hope to gain that cooperation couldn't bring?"

This is not the time for maturity.

[CRtwenty]

What really seems to be the problem is that Karsus picked entirely the wrong god to target. Seriously, if you want to borrow a god's power for a little bit, fine; but if you're using magic to do so, why the hell would you target the Goddess of Magic?

Because he was an idiot who assumed that since he was in the FR that his plot armor would protect hjm. Unfortunately he forgot he was background material and therefore wasn't protected.

Oh I got a great idea for a FR novel. Elminster goes back in time and SUCCESSFULLY CASTS KARSUS'S SPELL! Get Ed Greenwood on the phone right now!

Hrm, is Elminster the Wizard in the Sky for FR? It makes sense. o_o

[Xar Zarath]

This is not the time for maturity.[/QUOTE]

Lol

On-Topic:OK... so apparently fluff can mix with Tippyverse but never you mind. I suppose it would be beneficial for HPverse to join forced with Muggles, since the DnD Wizards would be indiscriminate in who they wanted to conquer.

Off-Topic: Has anyone read fanfiction by Imperial Overlord from sd.net. Its actually good, about a Epic drow Wizard and his party. The author hasn't updated in a few years If I am not mistaken. Anyone read the author's work before and if so does anyone know what happened to him/her?

[Arcanist]

Because he was an idiot who assumed that since he was in the FR that his plot armor would protect hjm. Unfortunately he forgot he was background material and therefore wasn't protected.

Oh I got a great idea for a FR novel. Elminster goes back in time and SUCCESSFULLY CASTS KARSUS'S SPELL! Get Ed Greenwood on the phone right now!

Hrm, is Elminster the Wizard in the Sky for FR? It makes sense. o_o

Actually Mystra is the de-facto Wizard-In-The-Sky unless Ao has anything to say about it (which he usually doesn't). To quote Larloch "No matter how powerful one becomes, there are always those who are stronger."

[Berenger]

I doubt that the average Potterverse wizard could survive combat with a single fireteam of perfectly mundane marines and I would stat those as fighters/rangers/rogues way below level 10.

[CRtwenty]

I doubt that the average Potterverse wizard could survive combat with a single fireteam of perfectly mundane marines and I would stat those as fighters/rangers/rogues way below level 10.

A reasonably trained HP Wizard could evade a team of marines fairly easily. I mean most of them are able to teleport themselves at will by the time they leave school. About the only way to take one out would be a sniper the Wizard was unaware of.

[Arcanist]

A reasonably trained HP Wizard could evade a team of marines fairly easily. I mean most of them are able to teleport themselves at will by the time they leave school. About the only way to take one out would be a sniper the Wizard was unaware of.

I am reminded of the show Heroes... How about, 10 of us against 1 of them? Or 20 of us against 1 of them? I will note that despite a Wizards semi-cosmic nearly phenomenal power there is a point where victory literally becomes impossible, but for a Wizard to get to that point to say that they have just run into a cool piece of 24-karots of bad luck would be an understatement

Honestly, I believe that is why the whole private Demiplane thing was created. To allow the Wizard or spellcaster to flee if they absolutely need to do so... Even if the entire universe is against them, they will always have a hole to hide in. Tragically a HP Wizard does not have this so they are SoL if the whole world just decides they want them dead

[CRtwenty]

Honestly, I believe that is why the whole private Demiplane thing was created. To allow the Wizard or spellcaster to flee if they absolutely need to do so... Even if the entire universe is against them, they will always have a hole to hide in. Tragically a HP Wizard does not have this so they are SoL if the whole world just decides they want them dead

That's probably one of the reasons for all the secrecy. Though it seems most Muggles automatically fail all of their saves against all of the HPverse's weirdness censor spells or anti Muggle devices, so it'd be pretty hard for us to actually find them if they didn't want to be found.

[Spuddles]

I doubt that the average Potterverse wizard could survive combat with a single fireteam of perfectly mundane marines and I would stat those as fighters/rangers/rogues way below level 10.

Couldn't you say that about virtually any non-combatants, though? I mean, you're comparing bureaucrats at the ministry of magic to soldiers.

I doubt a whole squad of marines could handle a pair of well trained combat wizards.

[Xar Zarath]

Couldn't you say that about virtually any non-combatants, though? I mean, you're comparing bureaucrats at the ministry of magic to soldiers.

I doubt a whole squad of marines could handle a pair of well trained combat wizards.

Most if not all of the HPverse wizards are clueless about Muggle tech including firearms ( I think they refer them to fire-legs) So if they skirmish they probably would get a few shots in before HPverse wises up.

However DnD Wizards would probably take it slow and learn about Muggle tech before making a move. Or they could Epic Telekinese the moon to hit the Earth...

[Drachasor]

Hmm, obviously HP loses since you're giving the other side Epic Level Spellcasting -- kind of insanely unfair to do that, imho.

That said, HP does have some things up its sleeve.

Avada Kadavra - Kills you if it hits. NO SAVE. It works on constructs. I don't think Magic Immunity would work against it -- creatures with SR in HP aren't resistant. All those whatever golems? Dead.

Transmutation - HP spells to turn you into a rat don't allow a save either.

Fiendfyre - It just keeps burning and burning and burning. It can destroy even powerful magical artifacts. It's unclear how to stop it.

Spells at your iterative attack bonus -- so it would seem.

Magical items are very easy for HP wizards to make compared to D&D wizards.

House Elves - They ignore Dimensional Anchor and similar effects.

Still, I think it would take a miracle to win against an Epic Caster on another plane.

Then again, Dumbledore can counterspell with a bluff check. I can't help but feel Dumbledore held back on insane crap just because it wouldn't be worth the cost of victory. HP has a lot of stuff with ridiculous implications. Just not as ridiculous as Epic Casting, generally.

Then again, maybe Inevitables in the HP universe are just that much crazier.

[Spuddles]

Most if not all of the HPverse wizards are clueless about Muggle tech including firearms ( I think they refer them to fire-legs) So if they skirmish they probably would get a few shots in before HPverse wises up.

However DnD Wizards would probably take it slow and learn about Muggle tech before making a move. Or they could Epic Telekinese the moon to hit the Earth...

Virtually all HP offensive spells involve ranged touch attacks, most of which have SR (I think the werewolf had stuff ping off him). Not getting shot by muggles pointing muggle wands at you would be fairly intuitive. Then there's all the ways wizards can obfuscate their position that technology cannot overcome because magic autowins vs tech.

[Arcanist]

Most if not all of the HPverse wizards are clueless about Muggle tech including firearms ( I think they refer them to fire-legs) So if they skirmish they probably would get a few shots in before HPverse wises up.

It doesn't take much knowledge to know that if someone points, what they interpret as, a weapon at you it means to dive for cover. Might be from playing FPS and going for a little paint ball with the boys, but dashing for cover feels like it would be wise to do in any ranged encounter.

However DnD Wizards would probably take it slow and learn about Muggle tech before making a move. Or they could Epic Telekinese the moon to hit the Earth...

Erm... I believe that Epic Telekinesis would be more along the lines of an Epic Psionic ability... Anywho! DnD Wizards are more about subterfuge and planning rather than going full Arcane on someone who pisses them off; Sure they can do this, but it would be suboptimal towards their plans.

EDIT: I found that making a 2nd comment would be a waste of space so I'll just merge these two comments together...

Spoiler

Show

Hmm, obviously HP loses since you're giving the other side Epic Level Spellcasting -- kind of insanely unfair to do that, imho.

If one side has to actually hold back for the other side to have a hope of victory then did the other side truly win? (If victory is so attained)

Avada Kadavra - Kills you if it hits. NO SAVE. It works on constructs. I don't think Magic Immunity would work against it -- creatures with SR in HP aren't resistant. All those whatever golems? Dead.

And Death Ward isn't a thing apparently?

Transmutation - HP spells to turn you into a rat don't allow a save either.

You actually got me stumped on this one actually... Undermaster is a personal favorite spell. It buries the other guy alive, no save.

Fiendfyre - It just keeps burning and burning and burning. It can destroy even powerful magical artifacts. It's unclear how to stop it.

And disarming the Wizard to prevent them from casting the charm (Partis Temporus) to deactivate it the spell isn't an option because? Dispel Magic is a thing on that note.

Spells at your iterative attack bonus -- so it would seem.

wut?

Magical items are very easy for HP wizards to make compared to D&D wizards.

Magic items in HP are highly underpowered, I'd like to add. The Deathly Hollows, the most powerful known magical items in the series, can literally be constructed by a 7th level Wizard.

House Elves - They ignore Dimensional Anchor and similar effects.

I don't recall this, can you cite the book that states that a House Elf can still Disapparate while normal Wizards would be unable to travel through such means?

Still, I think it would take a miracle to win against an Epic Caster on another plane.

It would be a miracle to win against an Epic spellcaster on any plane if they are fighting at their absolute best

Then again, Dumbledore can counterspell with a bluff check. I can't help but feel Dumbledore held back on insane crap just because it wouldn't be worth the cost of victory. HP has a lot of stuff with ridiculous implications. Just not as ridiculous as Epic Casting, generally.

What? What!? What!?

I wouldn't call that "Counterspelling"... I'd just call it a really good Bluff check

[undead hero]

Wasn't there an interview where the author said that the wizards in HP universe could be taken out by someone with a shotgun? I wish I could find that.

If that is so I really see the D&D wizards sending ice assassins or whatever with m16 and whatever to take them out.

[Drachasor]

Wasn't there an interview where the author said that the wizards in HP universe could be taken out by someone with a shotgun? I wish I could find that.

If that is so I really see the D&D wizards sending ice assassins or whatever with m16 and whatever to take them out.

It was that an average wizard would probably fail against someone with a shotgun. They just don't have combat training since they're a baker, storekeep, teacher, or whatever.