Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[Pip]

Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before., In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead. Kraagor may turn out to be King of Snarlworld, but since everyone believes he's dead and nothing currently contradicts that, that's why I'd personally keep it as is until we learn otherwise.

I would say 'dead'. His being eradicated is mere hearsay.

[Hecuba]

Admission: I have never played 1/2E and am trying to parse textbooks, so my assumptions here could be horrible.

The primary reason I think Wormhole is 9th Level is because of its functional similarity to Gate, its main difference being the permissible destination is inverted. Also Psions get Greater Teleport as a Level 8 power, so in my mind the next logical power boost is to allow travel in two directions

In addition, the sort of augmenting to increase a Psychoportation's maximum distance and paying to maintain it over several rounds doesn't appear to exist anywhere I can see in 3.5. The best example is 2E's Dimensional Door becoming 3.5's Psionic Dimension Door: The latter's only augmentation is for manifestation time, and any difference in range is due to manifester level. In addition, Dimensional Door could be learned by a first level Psion, whereas they now need to be level 7 to get it.

Finally the base cost of DD was 4 PSP before augmentation, where Wormhole starts at 24, indicating a significantly higher level power.

But, if enough people think that reasoning doesn't hold water, I can correct it.

I believe wormhole actually started at 15 PSP (for range less than or equal to 100 ft).

I wouldn't bat an eye at wormhole being updated like you're presuming, but I also wouldn't bat one at a lower level scaling implementation.

I simply don't think we have enough information to to draw a solid conclusion. (Actually, I think the Giant might have intentionally avoided giving us definitive information).

[Dark Matter]

Do Epic fighters continue to get feats (i.e. epic feats) every other level?

[RickDaily12]

Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before., In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead. Kraagor may turn out to be King of Snarlworld, but since everyone believes he's dead and nothing currently contradicts that, that's why I'd personally keep it as is until we learn otherwise.

Just because the Order of the Scribble believe Kraagor is dead doesn't actually mean that he is. In which case, Girards jab at Soon still makes plenty of sense.

After what Soon told the party happened to his wife, and at this rift, it makes sense to me that the Order of the Scribble would instantly think that if a member of the party fell in, then death is inevitable. Notice how we still have the body of Mijung and yet, Kraagor is missing...

Don't forget, that as portrayed by V and Blackwing, somebody among the Gods, The Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, or Redcloak/Dark One (their knowledge on his end missing) is lying about what they say about the Snarl and its rifts. Or in the case of our paladin, maybe somebody lied and/or he is mistaken? With the facts as unclear as they are, even if it seems probable, we don't have a solid basis of what actually happens in the rifts, ans until we do, proclaiming Kraagor as dead strikes me as premature, much less "eradication". But "Missing in Action"? This strikes me as fairly accurate, regardless of the truthness of the facts. Kraagor is not deceased due to old age; he is a dwarf. So unless we have a Word of Giant stating otherwise (which I doubt he will, given what foreshadowing we see in the rift episodes) we cannot assume Kraagor to have died.

Otherwise, we may as well go ahead and decease Thog.

[halfeye]

Kilkil is effectively a member of Team Tarquin, because he's Tarquin's personal aide.

Is he though? He's something (chancellor?) in the Empire of Blood, and he seems to answer to General Tarquin of the Empire of Blood, but does he work in the other empires?

[137beth]

Do Epic fighters continue to get feats (i.e. epic feats) every other level?

Yes. They get an additional list of (mostly bad) epic fighter feats (the ELH strongly encouraged you to homebrew feats...sticking to the list in the ELH gives a fighter similar to the core-only fighter, with even fewer options, creating all the normal issues that come with it). They can get Epic Leadership and Ledgendary Commander as fighter feats (if they can get their charisma up enough).

[Emanick]

Just because the Order of the Scribble believe Kraagor is dead doesn't actually mean that he is. In which case, Girards jab at Soon still makes plenty of sense.

After what Soon told the party happened to his wife, and at this rift, it makes sense to me that the Order of the Scribble would instantly think that if a member of the party fell in, then death is inevitable. Notice how we still have the body of Mijung and yet, Kraagor is missing...

Don't forget, that as portrayed by V and Blackwing, somebody among the Gods, The Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, or Redcloak/Dark One (their knowledge on his end missing) is lying about what they say about the Snarl and its rifts. Or in the case of our paladin, maybe somebody lied and/or he is mistaken? With the facts as unclear as they are, even if it seems probable, we don't have a solid basis of what actually happens in the rifts, ans until we do, proclaiming Kraagor as dead strikes me as premature, much less "eradication". But "Missing in Action"? This strikes me as fairly accurate, regardless of the truthness of the facts. Kraagor is not deceased due to old age; he is a dwarf. So unless we have a Word of Giant stating otherwise (which I doubt he will, given what foreshadowing we see in the rift episodes) we cannot assume Kraagor to have died.

Otherwise, we may as well go ahead and decease Thog.

We have no reason to believe that Kraagor is missing, rather than simply dead. The fact that there is a claw descending towards Kraagor's head - just like the claw that killed Mijung, whose body remained outside the rift - in the panel before the former's death strongly implies that Kraagor was killed outside of the rift, not by somehow falling in. And a corpse is a corpse, whether killed by the Snarl or anything else.

[RickDaily12]

We have no reason to believe that Kraagor is missing, rather than simply dead. The fact that there is a claw descending towards Kraagor's head - just like the claw that killed Mijung, whose body remained outside the rift - in the panel before the former's death strongly implies that Kraagor was killed outside of the rift, not by somehow falling in. And a corpse is a corpse, whether killed by the Snarl or anything else.

Um...

We do not have a corpse, nor was that fight scene even remotely a moment before death, my friend. A claw coming out at Soon and Kraagor (in a scribble description, much less an absolute scene of the moment) does not instantly mean someone is about to die. How was that ever established in what we were given?

[Emanick]

Um...

We do not have a corpse, nor was that fight scene even remotely a moment before death, my friend. A claw coming out at Soon and Kraagor (in a scribble description, much less an absolute scene of the moment) does not instantly mean someone is about to die. How was that ever established in what we were given?

It was implied extremely strongly that that panel was the climactic moment of the fight, with Lirian about to seal the rift on Soon's orders while Kraagor's life hung in the balance. Hence why Girard blamed Soon for Kraagor's death, etc. The only reasonable conclusion to draw from that scene is this is how Kraagor died, or at least how the Scribblers claimed he died. But since this event apparently led to the breakout of their Order, it strains credibility that they would have acted in collusion to lie about this event, especially since the accusation Girard's recorded illusion levels at Soon lines up pretty much exactly with what is depicted in that panel, and Soon evidently believed strongly in honor. Why would he lie to his own paladins about what took place?

The fact that you don't think the scene at Kraagor's Gate takes place a moment before the aforementioned dwarf's death indicates to me that you really don't understand what that panel is supposed to convey anyway, so maybe you should reread it before we continue this conversation.

My apologies if this post is a bit snippy, it's nearly 5 AM here and I'm not too great at being amiable in the predawn hours. No offense intended.

[RustyVenture]

I guess the sense I always got about Kraagor's possible demise and why Girard was so upset is that he wasn't necessarily killed by the snarl but somehow sealed or something by the Gate-creation spell cast by Lirian and Dorukan on Soon's orders. So I guess my vote - which given I'm not really active here probably counts for naught - is not for "erradicated" or even dead, but just "Fate Unknown." As a dwarf, he certainly could still be alive in the current time, but he may have been trapped in that rift world by the Gate without a means of escape due to the gates, or he may have been killed by the snarl or killed by the Gate process or sealed up in some soul-bind type of situation by the Gate-creation spell. As I don't believe there's enough evidence to support any one theory, I think leaving it as unknown is best.

On an unrelated note, what about adding Aarindarius, V's former master, to the thread? He appears in OOPCs and as I recall he also is mentioned and even possibly appears in the main comic around Darth V time. We even have a spell of his, Bixby's evicting hand. Given their proximity to the elven lands, I think it may be worthwhile to pop him in...

[Flame of Anor]

So I guess my vote is not for "erradicated" or even dead, but just "Fate Unknown."

Which is what "Missing in Action" means. I agree, there simply has been too much doubt cast on what actually happens with the Snarl and the rifts. Remember, everyone, the Snarl has never even been seen by the reader or by any living, mortal character in the comic. All we have is hearsay.

[Steven]

Clearly Kraagor is just pining for the fjords.


... I'll see myself out.

[ChristianSt]

I don't want to end this discussion about Kraagor's status (ok, maybe I do want to end it ), but from the rules of this thread it is imo pretty clear:

Q: Is a character's statement about another character considered evidence?
Yes. We assume that when a character says something about another character's (or his own) ability scores, build, feats, and so forth, they are speaking the truth, except where this contradicts with other evidence or is clearly not possible within the rules.

The only information we have is from Shojo (and through him from the Order of the Scribble): He is dead (ok - I think the word "dead" doesn't appear anywhere, but they speak of sacrifice and a tomb; and I think if they thought he where only "missing in action" they would have searched for him).
And using "er(r)adicated" as killed by Snarl instead the normal "deceased" (by the way: I would streamline that, some entries say "deceased", other say "Deceased") is a fine alteration.

But using something like "missing in action" is wrong, because we have no indication that "dead" is not true.

[RickDaily12]

Allow me to suggest that all the following are consistent statements:

Something, if not the Snarl, has killed from those rifts before., In addition, 276 indicates that the eyewitnesses believe Kraagor to be dead, and Girard's jab at Soon doesn't make much sense to me if he didn't believe Kraagor was dead.

It was implied extremely strongly that that panel was the climactic moment of the fight, with Lirian about to seal the rift on Soon's orders while Kraagor's life hung in the balance. Hence why Girard blamed Soon for Kraagor's death, etc. The only reasonable conclusion to draw from that scene is this is how Kraagor died, or at least how the Scribblers claimed he died.

Just because the Order of the Scribble believe Kraagor is dead doesn't actually mean that he is. In which case, Girards jab at Soon still makes plenty of sense.

After what Soon told the party happened to his wife, and at this rift, it makes sense to me that the Order of the Scribble would instantly think that if a member of the party fell in, then death is inevitable. Notice how we still have the body of Mijung and yet, Kraagor is missing...

But since this event apparently led to the breakout of their Order, it strains credibility that they would have acted in collusion to lie about this event, especially since the accusation Girard's recorded illusion levels at Soon lines up pretty much exactly with what is depicted in that panel, and Soon evidently believed strongly in honor. Why would he lie to his own paladins about what took place?

Don't forget, that as portrayed by V and Blackwing, somebody among the Gods, The Order of the Scribble, the Sapphire Guard, or Redcloak/Dark One (their knowledge on his end missing) is lying about what they say about the Snarl and its rifts. Or in the case of our paladin, maybe somebody lied and/or he is mistaken?

We do not have a corpse, [...] A claw coming out at Soon and Kraagor (in a scribble description, much less an absolute scene of the moment) does not instantly mean someone is about to die.

Which is what "Missing in Action" means. I agree, there simply has been too much doubt cast on what actually happens with the Snarl and the rifts. Remember, everyone, the Snarl has never even been seen by the reader or by any living, mortal character in the comic. All we have is hearsay.

We have what we know now in the rifts from Vaarsuvius, and we know the stories the Order heard from Shojo are misleading at best. In the case of every paladin who cannot lie, lying is NOT being misled by someone first.

As has been pointed out, fate unknown (I.e. Missing in Action) seems to be able to fit the bill since the facts that we have been told by Shojo are being called into question. All we know is, someone lied, and everyone who knows of this story are telling the same lie.

And the only reason I accept Mijung's death is because her corpse was visibly left behind to Soon (I don't necessarily accept that she was killed by the Snarl, this is what Soon believes; I merely accept that she has died). With Kraagor, this is not the case.

To base Kraagor as eradicated based on what we see, is again going to be grounds that we eliminate Thog. If we do not see enough cause to do the second, I claim we cannot the first either.

[dps]

Is he though? He's something (chancellor?) in the Empire of Blood, and he seems to answer to General Tarquin of the Empire of Blood, but does he work in the other empires?

Tarquin referred to him at one point as "my accountant", which doens't directly answer the question, but regardles, I don't think he should be listed as a member of Team Tarquin. He's clearly not an adventurer, and while he seems to pretty much know what's going on with the shadow game Tarquin and company are playing, he's also clearly not one of the 6 members of the adventuring group. He's more of a hireling/minion/follower type.

[ChristianSt]

And the only reason I accept Mijung's death is because her corpse was visibly left behind to Soon (I don't necessarily accept that she was killed by the Snarl, this is what Soon believes; I merely accept that she has died). With Kraagor, this is not the case.

I think if someone accepts Mijung's death, they also should accept Kraagor's death: They both are "hearsay": The complete Crayons of Time is only a story told by Shojo. Nothing necessarily happened as shown (the same is true for the crayon part in SoD).

And from what was told by Shojo both characters are dead.
Thinking that one is dead and the other not, because it might be plausible that one still lives, isn't sound reasoning (I wouldn't be shocked to see Kraagor living - but for the purpose of this thread he should be listed as "dead/deceased/er(r)adicated/anything that shows he is dead")

On an unrelated note, what about adding Aarindarius, V's former master, to the thread? He appears in OOPCs and as I recall he also is mentioned and even possibly appears in the main comic around Darth V time. We even have a spell of his, Bixby's evicting hand. Given their proximity to the elven lands, I think it may be worthwhile to pop him in...

He is at 2 appearances in-comic (630 and 634) + 1 appearances print-only.
From the current thread rules it is clear that this isn't enough (btw, have we anything to say about the ? Going with the Number of Appearance thread, they are frequent characters ).
Maybe we could change the rule to include "mentors" and such (because I think if we include Aarindarius we should also include Julio Scoundrél and Sir Francois, which had both more appearances).

If Aarindarius will show up in the future then he might be included for other reason.

[Kornaki]

Everything in the crayons story is hearsay - how do we even know this alleged Kraagor even existed? It's all hearsay, they could have just never had a dwarf in the party and made up an elaborate lie afterwards.

[Chronos]

Remember, everyone, this is just electrons, not stone engravings. So we list Kraagor as killed by the Snarl, for now, because that's the best information we have available to us right now. When and if we get better information that contradicts that (note: Actually contradicts it, not just casting doubt on it), then we can edit the entry. The entry can be edited at any time, not just when we get the first hint of doubt.

And on another note, Dorukan certainly has at least Craft Wondrous Item, to make his Talisman. He probably also has Craft Epic Wondrous Item, but I don't think we have solid evidence that the Talisman is an epic item.

And we don't know nearly enough about Aarindarius to justify an entry on him, just one single spell.

[AKA_Bait]

And on another note, Dorukan certainly has at least Craft Wondrous Item, to make his Talisman. He probably also has Craft Epic Wondrous Item, but I don't think we have solid evidence that the Talisman is an epic item.

What about the headband? Has a consensus been reached as to whether cloister is an epic level spell?

[Emanick]

We have what we know now in the rifts from Vaarsuvius, and we know the stories the Order heard from Shojo are misleading at best.

We actually don't know this. Nothing we've seen inside the rift contradicts anything that Shojo said. True, the Snarl isn't visible inside it, and there is a world inside - either the first world, the one the Snarl evidently destroyed, or one that was rebuilt somehow after the initial destruction, possibly by the Snarl itself or whatever else lives in the rift. The Snarl could easily be within SnarlWorld, the way it is shown in the memorable Scribble panel in which Thor kicks World 2.0 and Loki warns him not to taunt the god-killing abomination. Or a number of other theories could be true. All we know for sure is that our information is incomplete.

I'm loath to start invalidating things that characters have said that are currently considered sound for the purposes of this thread, because once we open that can of worms it's going to be almost impossible to close it again. It's extremely difficult to input new information under the burden of proof we already use. Let's keep the lines drawn where they are.

[evilbob]

I'll chime in and agree that Team Tarquin seem to be closer to level 20. Depending on how the narrative goes, at least so far we can sort of assume Team Evil is a higher level (since they're the "final boss"), but I doubt it's by much. Retiring and running a country is something you do as more of an epic character. Plus - and I don't know if anyone's mentioned this so far - but my recollection of psionics is that you spend power points on your powers, and opening ~half a dozen probably-level-9 wormholes seems like it'd eat up a lot of points. Assuming that's not her only use in battle - and I think that's a safe assumption - Laurin has got to have tons and tons of them. (Anyone have any numbers on how much that would have cost so far?) I think V's comment about drawing out the battle was a much better tactical move than we've realized so far: they spent a ton of effort on merely catching up.

Also, it seems to be semi-accepted that old-school Team Tarquin are using a lot of 2E rules while the younger OotS are using 3.5. That's hilarious. One more level of awesome. :)

[Shale]

What about the headband? Has a consensus been reached as to whether cloister is an epic level spell?

Celia specifically describes it as epic magic. But does the spell focus for an epic spell need to be an Epic Wondrous Item? Legitimate question, I haven't the slightest clue.

[Kornaki]

On the SRD the epic magic rules make it sound like its not even possible to have a focus, unless you have a divine focus when using the life and heal seeds (which the spell/focus are clearly not examples of). I think the cloister headband is pure homebrew but I could be wrong.

[hamishspence]

While "expensive focus" is not on the list of Mitigating Factors- there may be existing epic spells with such a Mitigating Factor listed in the description.

[orrion]

Off-the-current-topic question while I was cruising the characters for the heck of it:

In Zz'dtri's section it says he has Magic Circle Against Evil, and then links to http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html

I see absolutely nothing in that comic about a Magic Circle. What am I missing? All I see is a Summon Monster spell (which isn't listed in Zz'dtri's spell list, either).

[hamishspence]

I think the idea is that he's supposed to be using the circle, focussed inward, to control monsters bound by planar binding-type spells:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/pla...dingLesser.htm

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mag...gainstEvil.htm

[Shale]

Zz'ditri and Durkon are summoning fiends, not monsters. That requires one of the Planar Binding variants, and the only way to get a creature summoned through Planar Binding to obey you is to summon it into a Magic Circle Against [its alignment], which acts as a trap from which it cannot be released until it agrees to aid you.

[hamishspence]

Actually, if Durkon was 17th level, he could get a barbed devil via Summon Monster IX instead of Planar Ally.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIX.htm

However, since he prepared planar ally earlier

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html

it's far more likely that he is using that spell. Especially since there's no indication of him being 17th level, and possibly some indications against it.

[Shale]

Yeah, somehow I forgot about him having Ally prepped. It's divine only, though, so the point holds for Zz'ditri.

[SavageWombat]

Actually, if Durkon was 17th level, he could get a barbed devil via Summon Monster IX instead of Planar Ally.

Not to mention that he said the spell would last all day, instead of the 17 rounds Summon Monster would last. He even refers to the terms of the bargain. So it's clearly Planar Ally.