Dysfunctional Rules Thread V: Dysfunctions All the Way Down

[ZamielVanWeber]

You've got that the wrong way 'round. BoED released in October 2003, CDiv in March 2004

Holy crud. I got my BoVD in '03, CDiv in '04, and BoED in '06. Crazy.

[nedz]

Holy crud. I got my BoVD in '03, CDiv in '04, and BoED in '06. Crazy.

We even have a Publication list in the Handbook now — bottom of post one;
Courtesy of Chronos.

I don't actually own BoED or MiC so I wasn't aware of the definitions therein.

[Necroticplague]

We even have a Publication list in the Handbook now — bottom of post one;
Courtesy of Chronos.

I don't actually own BoED or MiC so I wasn't aware of the definitions therein.

BoED: a small bunch of crappy magic items that continue to work when normal ones wouldn't, and honestly have been entirely forgotten by most people, though one infamous thread on these boards brings it up.

MIC:Magic items that have a normal magic effect, and have an extra power that can activate if you worship the right god and have the True Believer feat or sacrifice spell slots.

[No brains]

Well we found 666 Dysfunctions. I'm sure that there are more out there really.

ALRIGHT! HAIL SATAN! \m/

A creature on the Astral plane ?

This seems plausible, but it is the ethereal, not astral plane that is coterminous with the the material plane. A creature on the astral plane is nowhere near the alarm to begin with, unless the spell just doesn't work on the astral plane. It could also be that our mystery guest is a creature using astral projection, but that's a distinction so wildly specific it deserves to be a dysfunction on its own.

In previous editions Relic and Artefact were synonyms. CDiv then redefined Relics.

Okay, so it is the fancy box that provides the cost. I guess to find the relic to put inside it, you just get that out of the spell pouch.

[Vedhin]

ALRIGHT! HAIL SATAN! \m/

*tackles* NOOO! No hail! We don't need a cold day in hell; do you have any idea what kind of madness would happen?

[Big Fau]

*tackles* NOOO! No hail! We don't need a cold day in hell; do you have any idea what kind of madness would happen?

Madness?

THIS! IS! SPARTA CANIA!

[Andezzar]

Madness?

THIS! IS! SPARTA CANIA!

Where is the like button?

[ShurikVch]

Wind Wall. Term "massive ranged weapons" is not defined.

Antimagic Field.

Area: 10-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you

Say, colossal dragon occupy 30 ft. Does it mean AMF will be completely within? It, probably, can protect against magic in the stomach or Scarab of Death, but still way way too situational...

Spell Necromantic Singularity (from CoR) have

Range: 300 ft.
Area: 1-mile radius

Please, aim carefully...

Template "Dream Element" creature (from Dragon #287) have "Wis -"

[Flickerdart]

Spell Necromantic Singularity (from CoR) have Please, aim carefully...

The best part is that a spell's area of effect does not extend beyond its range, so most of it is wasted.

[TuggyNE]

Wind Wall. Term "massive ranged weapons" is not defined.

It's defined by example, which is good enough: "A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons…".

Antimagic Field. Say, colossal dragon occupy 30 ft. Does it mean AMF will be completely within? It, probably, can protect against magic in the stomach or Scarab of Death, but still way way too situational...

Not a dysfunction, just a limitation of the spell.

[The Viscount]

I feel like I've read an emanation comes from the outside of your occupied squares, not your center, or else every damaging burst would also damage the caster. Unfortunately I can't find such evidence, and the DMG unhelpfully provided no images for how bursts or emanations work.

[No brains]

Wind Wall. Term "massive ranged weapons" is not defined.

It's defined by example, which is good enough: "A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons…".

As I remember, the DMG gets into similar detail defining massive weapons when describing wind speeds. Where this gets weird is when someone attempts to throw a spear through a wind wall; a two-handed weapon for a medium creature is a medium object just like the one-handed rock from a large hill giant, exactly as a ballista is a huge crossbow, which fires a bolt which when alone is treated as a dagger (at least by improvised damage), which when increased two size categories becomes medium. By the data, two-handed medium weapons are sufficiently 'massive'.

For maximum headaches, Fling, by feat or ability, a medium creature against a wind wall and see where they land.

[TypoNinja]

It's defined by example, which is good enough: "A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons…".



Not a dysfunction, just a limitation of the spell.

Isn't there a rule somewhere about larger creatures and AoE? I seem to remember reading somewhere that if any part of a very large creature is caught in AoE they still take full effects.

Can't think of where though.

For maximum headaches, Fling, by feat or ability, a medium creature against a wind wall and see where they land.

New amusement part ride for small and smaller races. Carefully position Wind Walls and have a friendly giant hurl you into the first one at an appropriate angle.

Bounce all over the place, screaming like a mad man.

Include a resetting trap of shrink monster for when the larger races inevitably get jealous and want a turn.

[ShurikVch]

The best part is that a spell's area of effect does not extend beyond its range, so most of it is wasted.

Hey, what's about area spells with "Range: Personal", such as Zone of Silence or Negative/Positive Energy Aura ? Are they affect only a caster?

What, nobody freaked about Wisdom-less template?
Nonabilities

Wisdom

Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

[Andezzar]

I feel like I've read an emanation comes from the outside of your occupied squares, not your center, or else every damaging burst would also damage the caster. Unfortunately I can't find such evidence, and the DMG unhelpfully provided no images for how bursts or emanations work.

Here you go:

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection.

No dysfunction here. Nothing to see move it along.

[TuggyNE]

Hey, what's about area spells with "Range: Personal", such as Zone of Silence or Negative/Positive Energy Aura ? Are they affect only a caster?

Presumably.

What, nobody freaked about Wisdom-less template?
Nonabilities

What's there to say? It's obviously dysfunctional, end of story, nothing especially interesting except that it's a problem.

[The Viscount]

Final Strike has a prerequisite of air, cold, earth, fire, water, acid, or electricity subtype. You will notice that the last two are not real subtypes.

[ShurikVch]

Presumably.

This spells can be at least useful for personal usage. But Cloud of the Achaierai or Mycontil's Last Resort turn completely pointless.

What's there to say? It's obviously dysfunctional, end of story, nothing especially interesting except that it's a problem.

Obviously, this template was intended to usage in overpowered stacking for tauric creatures - this way it can have Wis/Cha

[TuggyNE]

Archmage and Arcane Trickster PrCs in Core, as well as (many? most? all?) CArc PrCs and probably various others, do not advance caster level.

Spells per Day/Spells Known
When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

Most other Core PrCs specifically say that caster level is advanced, such as Eldritch Knight; some, of course, advance only caster level, such as Hierophant.

Somehow, this feels like the worst dysfunction we've uncovered for quite a while. Not sure exactly why.

[No brains]

Archmage and Arcane Trickster PrCs in Core, as well as (many? most? all?) CArc PrCs and probably various others, do not advance caster level.

Most other Core PrCs specifically say that caster level is advanced, such as Eldritch Knight; some, of course, advance only caster level, such as Hierophant.

Somehow, this feels like the worst dysfunction we've uncovered for quite a while. Not sure exactly why.

This might be some kind of Thicket of Blades paradox again, even though archmage doesn't increase caster level by increasing the CL of the prerequisite class, it does increase CL by advancing in itself. Is its clause in the description specific enough to override the general rule of casting classes increasing their CL with levels?

[TuggyNE]

This might be some kind of Thicket of Blades paradox again, even though archmage doesn't increase caster level by increasing the CL of the prerequisite class, it does increase CL by advancing in itself. Is its clause in the description specific enough to override the general rule of casting classes increasing their CL with levels?

What general rule would that be? Archmage has no casting of its own.

[TypoNinja]

What general rule would that be? Archmage has no casting of its own.

Maybe not what he was going for, but advancing in spellcasting requires an advance in caster level, since you are forbidden from casting at a lower caster level than the spells minimum. There is no such thing as a caster level 2 fireball (barring some hilarious cheeze im not aware of anyway).

If it doesn't it sets up a contradiction, the class tells you to gain spells per day (and known), while the spellcasting rules forbid it. Furthermore The rules compendium does not make a distinction between caster level and spell casting levels, neither does the glossary.

The rules don't separate the two, at least not anywhere I can find with a quick search.

[Andezzar]

Maybe not what he was going for, but advancing in spellcasting requires an advance in caster level, since you are forbidden from casting at a lower caster level than the spells minimum. There is no such thing as a caster level 2 fireball (barring some hilarious cheeze im not aware of anyway).

At least Ur-priest casting differs. An Ur-priest cast 9th level cleric spells with a caster level of 9 or 10. Paladins and rangers cast 4th l

If it doesn't it sets up a contradiction, the class tells you to gain spells per day (and known), while the spellcasting rules forbid it. Furthermore The rules compendium does not make a distinction between caster level and spell casting levels, neither does the glossary.

I can only find these rules

A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).

If a character gets a spell slot of a certain level knows at least one spell of that level and has the minimum ability score, how can his caster level be too low to cast the spell? A wizard does not get 9th level spells until having 17 levels. But a wizard 15/Archmage 2 gets a 9th level spell slot and two known 9 th spells despite having only a CL of 15 (unless he takes the appropriate High Arcana). The rules only reference how casting a spell at a caster level lower than normal works. They say nothing about not being able to cast it at your normal caster level, if this is lower than what you would expect.

The rules don't separate the two, at least not anywhere I can find with a quick search.

Of course there are differences. First of all the glossary implies that they are not always the same. The most obvious examples are rangers and paladins. At level 4 these classes become casters and as such all their levels contribute to their level in a spellcasting class, yet their caster level is equal to half that number. Other examples include: Practiced spellcaster does not give early access to spells, nor do the various domains that allow you to cast certain spells at +1 caster level.

[Sith_Happens]

Don't remember if this has been posted yet:

If used against an undead creature, heal instead acts like harm.

Harm charges a subject with negative energy that deals 10 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 150 points at 15th level)

Therefore, Heal deals negative energy damage to undead (the reverse is also true; Harm heals undead with positive energy).

[georgie_leech]

Don't remember if this has been posted yet:




Therefore, Heal deals negative energy damage to undead (the reverse is also true; Harm heals undead with positive energy).

Oddly enough, without the language that negative energy heals undead that most of the inflict spells have, one dysfunction solves another. However, it says Heal works as Harm if cast on an Undead. Meanwhile, Harm, cast on an Undead, acts as Heal. So Casting Heal makes the spell behave as Harm which switches to Heal which...

[TuggyNE]

Maybe not what he was going for, but advancing in spellcasting requires an advance in caster level, since you are forbidden from casting at a lower caster level than the spells minimum. There is no such thing as a caster level 2 fireball (barring some hilarious cheeze im not aware of anyway).

If it doesn't it sets up a contradiction, the class tells you to gain spells per day (and known), while the spellcasting rules forbid it.

There's no problem gaining spell slots for a level that you can't cast yet: a third-level wizard with 11 Int has at least one of them, for example. They can be used for metamagic.

Spells known is a bit trickier, but I'm actually not sure there's any particular reason to suppose you can't learn a spell you can't cast yet. Barring such a reason, well, there you are. No contradiction.

In any case, of course, if there is a contradiction, that almost makes it worse, because it doesn't actually tell you you get caster level advancement: it just means your spells don't work right at all.

Furthermore The rules compendium does not make a distinction between caster level and spell casting levels, neither does the glossary.

That might solve the problem, but failing to make a distinction in one or two general places where the distinction is clearly made in several other more specific places (namely, the other prestige classes that explicitly do advance caster level) does not fill me with confidence.

[Chronos]

Quoth ShurikVch:

What, nobody freaked about Wisdom-less template?

That would definitely be a dysfunction if it existed. Is there any such template, though? I've never heard of one.

And the bit about "you can't cast a spell unless you have the minimum caster level required" is problematic, since it's nowhere stated what the minimum caster level for any spell is, and any argument for what it is turns out to be circular.

[No brains]

*tackles* NOOO! No hail! We don't need a cold day in hell; do you have any idea what kind of madness would happen?

I knew there was something up with what you said, but could only just figure it out: control weather makes hail storms in summer. So either hell is safe or D&D needs to check its meteorology.

[Flickerdart]

And the bit about "you can't cast a spell unless you have the minimum caster level required" is problematic, since it's nowhere stated what the minimum caster level for any spell is, and any argument for what it is turns out to be circular.

It's perfectly straightforward: you can only cast the spells that you can cast, and can't cast any other spells.

[ShurikVch]

That would definitely be a dysfunction if it existed. Is there any such template, though? I've never heard of one.

Template "Dream Element" (from Dragon #287) have "Wis -" (and, by extension, "Cha -")